Hertz, showing the difference between science and engineering

a year ago by The Picard Maneuver to c/science_memes

artifex 234 points a year ago

He probably would have figured it out had he had time to evolve into Megahertz.

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ThePyroPython 88 points a year ago

Then ascended to become pure EM spectrum as his final Gigahertz form.

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te_abstract_art 55 points a year ago

With great power comes great corruption and tyranny. So begins the dark era of Terahertz

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kautau 32 points a year ago

Only can Petahertz rise from the ashes of darkness and re-engineer the Universe before the incoming Heat Death

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ThePyroPython 21 points a year ago

"Hello, is that DarkHorse comics?

Boy, do I have an epic 5-phase graphic novel for you!"

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jaybone 14 points a year ago

This thread hurts.

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invictvs 1 point 5 months ago

I know I'm replying to a 7 months old thread, but reading it got me wondering is there a limit to frequency? Well, I'm sure there is, my question is more like what is it? Is it when the wavelength nears or reaches plank legnth, if that even makes any sense?

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niktemadur 8 points a year ago

He might have won the very first Nobel Prize, had he not passed away just a few years prior, and much too young, wasn't he in his late-30s or early-40s?

In fact, I believe that had Hertz remained alive and won his prize, the Nobel Committee would not have felt obliged to give it to Marconi a few years later.

Marconi was a back-stabbing asshole who became one of the wealthiest men in the world by abusing the gentlemanly trust of others, and coasting on someone else's technology - particularly the way crystals oscillate, and some of them serve nicely as a sort of "translation point" between electromagnetic waves and the physical apparatus that transmits and/or receives the signal.

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Schadrach 2 points a year ago

He might have won the very first Nobel Prize, had he not passed away just a few years prior,

Basically the same thing happened twenty years later with Henrietta Swan Leavitt, who made a discovery that's essential to figuring distances in space. She noticed something while working as a computer at Harvard College Observatory that eventually became known as Leavitt's Law. Her Nobel nomination was halted because she passed away and the award is not given posthumously. Hubble's work heavily relied on hers.

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yesman 185 points a year ago

If you think about it, almost all computer-technology is radio. Wifi, bluetooth, GPS, radar, and cellular are literally radio. Meanwhile everything else runs on transistor tech developed and refined... for radios.

Our modern economy couldn't exist if people like Hertz and Maxwell didn't get to toy with their useless hobbies. But we can't rely on the curiosity of the leisure class anymore. Basic research is expensive, necessary, and a public good. I'm afraid that the Trump regime has already spoiled the secret sauce that makes America the technology leader of the world.

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zaphod 49 points a year ago

Transistors were mostly developed for telephone systems (the ones with wires) as a replacement for tubes. And the modern tech used for radios is very different from that used for computers.

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m0darn 53 points a year ago

Ithink you could be more charitable in your reply. Transistors were developed to replace tubes in telephone systems... Okay but the tubes had been developed to where they were because of their usefulness in radio.

And while computers don't inherently rely on radio, it's radio communication that's taken computers from one in every office to one in everyone's pocket. Right? The main thrust of the previous commenter is true.

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markovs_gun 33 points a year ago

Even more than that, just proving Maxwell was right was a key stepping stone to all of modern physics. Maxwell, not Einstein, was the first to show that the speed of light is invariant, and Einstein's Relativity was a framework for explaining how tf physics works if that's actually true. Prior to Einstein, physists all just kind of assumed there was some flaw in Maxwell's theorems to lead to this crazy speed invariance, but as the evidence just kept piling up in favor of Maxwell, they started having to wrestle with the uncomfortable thought that this could actually be true. In this sense, Hertz can also be thought of as an important step to Einstein and beyond, and almost all of our modern technology.

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Randelung 8 points a year ago

It's getting pretty drafty up here. Giants on shoulders of giants all the way down. I can't even see the bottom anymore.

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kender242 0 points a year ago

Bottom is probably Newton. The guy was a machine.

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gandalf_der_12te 4 points a year ago

Two inventions:

  • Internet
  • Computers

are independent of each other, but go together nicely.

You could have an internet (sort of) without computers. Consider Teletypers, FM Radio broadcasts, or Telephone.

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ragas 2 points a year ago

an internet (sort of) without computers.

Really? You mean like the ... telephone network?

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shutz 166 points a year ago

Faraday, after demonstrating how moving a magnet through a coiled wire induced a current in the wire was asked by a visiting statesman what was the use of this.

Faraday responded, "In twenty years, you will be taxing it"

Similarly, at a demonstration of hot air balloons in France, Benjamin Franklin was asked "Of what use is this?"

Franklin replied, "Of what use is a newborn baby?"

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Landless2029 42 points a year ago

Everything I've ever heard about Franklin makes him a boss. This is a new one.

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musubibreakfast 35 points a year ago

Here's a little known fact that is not true, which will bring some nuance to the previous anecdote, Benjamin Franklin ate babies.

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Landless2029 20 points a year ago

Another one that is true but sounds like an onion.

He enjoyed the company of GILFS

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MyNameIsIgglePiggle 8 points a year ago

Benjamin Franklin fucks

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eugenevdebs 4 points a year ago

British children! Maybe a few Prussians too.

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AngryCommieKender 4 points a year ago

The British were John Paul Jones, but Franklin taught him.

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davidgro 22 points a year ago

Sounds like Faraday understood the... potential.

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gandalf_der_12te 8 points a year ago

Funnily enough, Faraday seemingly also understood that the Electric Field only possesses a potential in the absence of changing magnetic fields. Because only in the absence of changing magnetic fields, the rotation of the Electric Field is zero, and only then it has a potential.

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Anti_Face_Weapon 18 points a year ago

That's a really cool Franklin quote. Visionary.

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GraniteM 10 points a year ago

"Mr. Franklin, of what use is this hot air balloon contraption?"

"You can take ladies up in it with a bottle of wine and a blanket and you know, they can’t refuse, because of the implication. Think about it. She's floating up in the middle of the sky with some dude she barely knows. You know, she looks around, and what does she see? Nothing but open air. 'Ahhhh! There’s nowhere for me to run. What am I gonna do, say ‘no?’"

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Reddfugee42 -4 points a year ago

That last bit is me when dealing with people who "aren't impressed" by today's AI.

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Saleh 7 points a year ago

The problem isn't the "AI". It is people praising its babbling as the solution for everything.

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ameancow 4 points a year ago
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Reddfugee42 -1 points a year ago

Ok boomer

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ameancow 2 points a year ago
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frezik 1 point a year ago

I'm unimpressed by the people who use it.

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psud 1 point a year ago

AI tools are pretty good in Photoshop; they're pretty good in copilot; Ukraine claims they're good at guiding a drone to a Russian bomber (though they also hit decommissioned aircraft). I think you only see the use of less specialised AI used to generate low quality text and soulless images

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ameancow 1 point a year ago
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Reddfugee42 0 points a year ago

I'm sure they have trouble sleeping over that

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frezik 2 points a year ago

They're destroying humanity both physically and mentally, so I certainly hope so.

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Tar_alcaran 126 points a year ago

I mean, it would be some 25 years until the radio was invented. And Hertz' machine required a 30kV spark on a 2.5m meter long antenna with 2 solid 30cm zinc spheres, and his transmission range was something like "barely down the hall".

Not the most practical method.

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con_fig 73 points a year ago

I'm sure someone thinks it's perfect for their use case, semi relevant xkcd:

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ChaoticNeutralCzech 9 points a year ago

At least physics will never get patched. The spark device with zinc spheres will always do that thing.

FCC: And get you arrested

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General_Effort 21 points a year ago

Fun fact: The german word for using a radio is "funken"; literally "to spark". A radioman is, or was, a "Funker". When you are talking over the radio, you are doing it "Über Funk".

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gandalf_der_12te 2 points a year ago

ooh i always guessed the word "Funk" comes from function, i.e. the radio is a useful tool that has a function to whoever is using it.

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General_Effort 4 points a year ago

It really is from "Funkentechnik": "Spark technology". I wonder how many people appreciate the post for the cute etymology and how many because it sounds funny.

Good information for ham radio people, too. Hobby sounds too geeky? Just say you're into Über-Funk-Parties.

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brbposting 2 points a year ago

Appreciate for both of course!

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gandalf_der_12te 1 point a year ago

ok but now, where does the word "Funke" (spark) come from?

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squaresinger 2 points a year ago

Pretty much the first type of commercially viable radio transmitter was the spark-gap transmitter ("Knallfunkensender" in German). It worked by charging up some capacitors to up to 100kV and then letting them spark. This spark sent a massive banging noise on the whole radio spectrum, which could then be turned into an audible noise using a very simple receiver. That was then used to send morse codes (or similar encodings).

They went into service around 1900, and by 1920 it was illegal to use these because they would disrupt any and all other radio transmissions in the area with a massive loud bang.

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General_Effort 1 point a year ago

“Knallfunkensender”

Literally "Bang-Sparks-Sender".

Are you sure it's because of the radio spectrum bang? I always thought it was because of the audible bang.

If someone operated such a thing today, any guesses what the death zone for electronic devices would be?

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jaybone 8 points a year ago

So like Bluetooth?

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dustyData 10 points a year ago

But somehow more reliable.

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Tar_alcaran 5 points a year ago

Yes, except you need to buy each bit in a big glass jar.

Edit: only half joking, they used big Leiden Jars, which were basically giant glass batteries. There was no such thing as people with power at home, unless you were crazy rich

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gandalf_der_12te 1 point a year ago

There were electrochemical cells (invented in 1800) that provided a constant current for some time.

Idk the details. Look up Galvanic cell, Volta cell.

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Tar_alcaran 1 point a year ago

Sure, but those are still "big glass jars full of electricity"

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Crankenstein 6 points a year ago

Those practical methods would never have existed if not for Hertz' experiments. Those were 25 years of other scientists, having seen that this new concept exists, refining his contraption into what eventually would become the machine that we know as a radio.

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ShinkanTrain 103 points a year ago

I feel like I hear about this guy once every second

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Hupf 13 points a year ago

Whatever you do, love Hertz

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gandalf_der_12te 3 points a year ago

which is about the frequency that the heart (german Herz) is beating with.

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expatriado 85 points a year ago

this type of science-discovery to usefulness-realization latency is the norm, pretty sure Curie didn't envision nuclear power plants

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mmmm 49 points a year ago

I suppose it's like asking a biologist what type of dishes would they do with a plant species they just discovered

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xylol 36 points a year ago

Is that not what drives biologists, trying to eat new discoveries before someone else

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shalafi 18 points a year ago

Darwin ate every damned thing he came across.

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jaybone 3 points a year ago

That’s gross.

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thefartographer 14 points a year ago

Just like how anthropological archeologists compete to eat the oldest thing they find

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expatriado 8 points a year ago

most likely other humans eat it first, they just didn't write it down and publish it

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ShinkanTrain 8 points a year ago

She didn't envision a lot of things

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lobut 60 points a year ago

There's a good NPR podcast in the same vein as this: https://www.npr.org/...

It's about congressman talking about government waste and targeting the sciences. It's like, you don't get the "cool" applications without the "weird" research. I'm doing a horrible job describing it, but I thought it was a good listen.

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hobovision 15 points a year ago

Planet Money has some really good episodes. Unfortunately, a lot of filler as well.

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jollyrogue 2 points a year ago

Oh yeah. No one appreciates blue sky research. We don’t know where the question will take us, which is why governments fund the research. They can take on the 0.1% chance something useful is created 20 years later.

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snek_boi 56 points a year ago

This post tickles a fond memory of mine. I was talking to a right-wing libertarian, and he said there should be no research done ever if it couldn't prove beforehand its practical applications. I laughed out loud because I knew how ignorant and ridiculous that statement was. He clearly had never picked up a book on the history of science, on the history of these things:

  • quantum mechanics. It would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn't have semiconductors in his phone, or if he didn't have access to lasers for his LASIK surgery (which he actually did have), both of which are technologies built by basic research that didn't have practical applications in mind.
  • electromagnetism. It would be a shame if the poor libertarian was having his LASIK surgery and the power went out without there being a generator, a technology built by basic research that didn't have practical applications in mind.
  • X-rays. It would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn't have x-rays to check the inside of his body in case something went wrong, a technology built by basic research that didn't have practical applications in mind.
  • superconductivity. It would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn't have superconductors for an MRI to check the inside of his body in case something went wrong, a technology built by basic research that didn't have practical applications in mind.
  • radio waves. It would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn't have radio waves for his phone and computer's wifi and bluetooth to run his digital business, technologies built by basic research that didn't have practical applications in mind.
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jsomae 36 points a year ago

When talking with libertarians you should keep in mind they have completely different axiomatic values. It is often the case that they understand a certain policy would be on net bad for everyone, they simply don't care. They are rarely utilitarian about those issues.

I get along much better with libertarians who justify libertarianism with values extrinsic to just "muh freedom" -- they are usually much more willing to yield ground in places where I can convince them that a libertarian policy would be net negative, and they have also moved me to be more open minded about some things I thought I would never agree with.

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Schadrach 2 points a year ago

and they have also moved me to be more open minded about some things I thought I would never agree with.

Such as? I'm curious.

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jsomae 1 point a year ago

Mm for instance, I think in some contexts markets are pretty powerful, like prediction markets are pretty good at predicting things. (Not saying they're flawless -- polymarket likely overpredicted Trump's victory). Or that benign-looking regulation is frequently detrimental to the public -- while not libertarians at all, Abundance makes a good case for repealing a lot of regulation related to construction. Such regulation is often motivated by people who want to preserve the value of their homes, even though on the surface it appears to be about environmental concerns. (Obviously, I think the environment is important, so we shouldn't just repeal everything. Just that we should be more critical of such regulation.) Another example is how the U.S. banned civilian supersonic aviation in its airspace because of disruptive sonic booms; apparently the technology now exists to keep such booms very quiet, but the regulation persists, because it's not booms which were banned but instead supersonic speed as a proxy for booms.

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InternetCitizen2 2 points a year ago

Those are much rarev in my opinion.

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MyNameIsIgglePiggle 10 points a year ago

Bullshit. Lasers have been intended to gain interplanetary superiority since the dawn of time. We just didnt know how to make them or that they could also be used to read music from a circle

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P00ptart 45 points a year ago

Was he the guy that started that rental car company?

/s

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The_Picard_Maneuver 24 points a year ago

His customers lamented that driving was so boring and they wished there was some magical way for the cars to play music.

Oh well. Nothing to be done there.

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P00ptart 5 points a year ago

Just straight lazy... Shame.

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MyNameIsIgglePiggle 3 points a year ago

Hertz donut

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gedaliyah 44 points a year ago

This may be an even better example than the positron. Originally a theoretical antimatter form of the common electron, with no practical application.

Turned out to be a vital tool for medical imaging. If you or someone you know has ever had a PET scan, now you know what the P stands for.

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thefartographer 15 points a year ago

I always thought it stood for "pepperoni." So, you're saying "PET" stands for "Positrons, Endives, and Tomatoes"?

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peoplebeproblems 7 points a year ago

No it stands for animals you keep at home.

PET scan, its powered by hamsters.

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 8 points a year ago

I guess they decided CAT scan wasn't inclusive enough.

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Tlaloc_Temporal 4 points a year ago

Cats were originally used for their curiosity, but training hamsters and eventually parakeets led to much smaller machines.

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ByteJunk 41 points a year ago

I feel like this is a very "scientisty" thing - the theoretical aspect is so fascinating and being able to fit all the pieces into a model that is mathematically accurate is the reward.

Considering the practical application of the model and how it can benefit society (or in other words, be marketed for profit) takes a different set of skills.

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Crankenstein 29 points a year ago

I absolutely detest the equivocation of "benefits society" and "marked for profit".

Plenty of things have been discovered to have practical applications which can benefit society yet are shelved or have its implementation frustrated because it cannot be exploited for profit or threatens the profits of a preexisting application which it would replace.

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Anti_Face_Weapon 31 points a year ago

We stand on the shoulders of giants etc etc. But it seems odd to me that they wouldn't think about using this for communication at least.

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Ronno 19 points a year ago

It's not always immediately obvious to what end you can use a new innovation. For instance, the Romans discovered and built a steam engine. But nobody connected the dots that it could be used to power a train.

To me, it showcases the main reason why we need to collaborate. Only together, we can exponentially increase the potential of everything we build.

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Obi 7 points a year ago

Imagine industrial revolution Roman Empire, thank fuck they didn't connect the dots.

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psud 1 point a year ago

Good for us as we wouldn't exist without the world going exactly as it has (I guess unless you're from a culture that didn't get conquered/settled and has been quite insular), but imagine where technology would be if industrial civilisation had been continuous from so early

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Kornblumenratte 6 points a year ago

Herons steam "engine" had no power whatsoever and was not scalable. And even if it would have been scalable, they had had no fuel to drive it.

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Saleh 1 point a year ago

No fuel? All you need is something that makes a fire. And it is not like crude oil wasn't know to people back then.

If the invention had been further explored it is entirely reasonable to assume people could have invented a "practical" steam engine 2.000 years ago. All it would have needed is fixing the steam exhaust and have it drive a shoveled wheel.

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SippyCup 3 points a year ago

Still, going from a stream powered spinning toy to locomotive is a few orders of magnitude. Heron's "engine" was a little jet engine. Heated water pushed it's way out of pipes. It's a far cry from building steam pressure in a tank, using that pressure to drive a crank shaft, and pushing along a vehicle of any kind.

There are a number of industrial era inventions required before you can even start putting something like a train together.

The Romans didn't even have replaceable parts yet. Every nail was custom made.

If you haven't seen it, watch Clickspring's series on the antikithra mechanism. It'll give you an idea of how hard it was to produce complicated machinery was at the time.

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Kornblumenratte 1 point a year ago

They did not use coal back then – I'm not sure whether it was even known to the Mediterranean culture. Forests were plundered for shipbuilding. Crude oil was only available as naphtha in the Middle East, barely enough for the local fishermen to pitch there boats and for the Byzantines to use in their flamethrowers. Furthermore, crude oil was not used in steam engines — you cannot shovel a heep of oil under a kettle. Fuel existed, yes, but they had no access to it.

All it would have needed is fixing the steam exhaust and have it drive a shoveled wheel.

So a completely different machine? Shoveled wheels were invented centuries after Heron. Even if they played with such a setup – an open, non-pressurized turbine has no usable power. To use steam, you'll have to pressurize it, and the technology to tame high pressure was only developed to build cannons that do not burst.

In the history of the steam engine, the fuel supply was available before the engine. IIRC, Watt's incentive for the invention of the steam engine was the need to drain coal mines.

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echodot 1 point a year ago

I thought they did invent a steam engine at some point. I'm sure I read that somewhere.

The thing is they were never going to invent the steam engine because they didn't have the technology to produce steel to the quality and strength that would be needed to build rails. And for that matter they didn't really have the metallurgy necessary to construct reliable boilers either.

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DragonTypeWyvern 17 points a year ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radio

By August 1895, Marconi was field testing his system but even with improvements he was only able to transmit signals up to one-half mile, a distance Oliver Lodge had predicted in 1894 as the maximum transmission distance for radio waves.

I suppose beyond the engineering know how required they were looking at possible transmission ranges and thinking it simply wasn't practical, square law and all that.

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squaresinger 16 points a year ago

This.

There are often actual limits to what can be done, and there are practical limits. Especially in the early days of a technology it's really hard to understand which limits are actual limits, practical limits or only short-term limits.

For example, in the 1800s, people thought that going faster than 30km/h would pose permanent health risks and wouldn't be practical at all. We now know that 30km/h isn't fast at all, but we do know that 1300km/h is pretty much the hard speed limit for land travel and that 200-300km/h is the practical limit for land travel (above that it becomes so power-inefficient and so dangerous that there's hardly a point).

So when looking at the technology in an early state, it's really hard to know what kind of limit you have hit.

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fossilesque 28 points a year ago

I LOVE SIGNAL PROCESSING

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ChaoticNeutralCzech 10 points a year ago

Half of the field is viable thanks to a single algorithm: FFT

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Hugin 7 points a year ago

FFT was a DARPA project. It alone probably makes all their funding worth it.

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PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S 5 points a year ago

ME TOO!

I feel like the signal processing community is really passionate about their work. It comes out in their books. I know I can talk for hours and hours and hours about signal processing. And my DSP professor was like that too. That was such a fun class.

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gandalf_der_12te 1 point a year ago

i would like to hear about it :)

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Justas 1 point a year ago

I had that during my second year of master's. I barely understood it and the rest of the class couldn't understand it at all. I wrote my exam and forgot 99% of it a week later.

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pastel_de_airfryer 27 points a year ago

And this is why science shouldn't be beheld to the whims of politicians and capitalists

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manxu 26 points a year ago

I mean, why would a guy that started a car rental company know anything about radio waves?

Gotcha!

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PrimeMinisterKeyes 7 points a year ago

Because of car radio? Vertical integration, you know.

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 5 points a year ago

I thought he was a baker. When I was a kid people would always be talking about "Hertz donuts". Then they'd punch me. I never knew why.

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psx_crab 20 points a year ago

Aperture Science! We do what we must because we can!

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iAvicenna 18 points a year ago

Imagine if he had to apply for funding

"these waves have the potential to transform how we communicate and will likely find world wide usage"

He would actually be right unlike all the other funding applications which are largely oversold.

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echodot 3 points a year ago

I mean it's kind of bizarre that he couldn't think of a practical application. We literally use invisible waves to communicate already, these ones move at light speed, how could that not be useful?

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MystikIncarnate 17 points a year ago

Hilariously, light is an electromagnetic wave.

So, yes, we can see electromagnetic waves.... Just, only a very small segment of them.

How wrong he was. Now we use EM daily for everything.... Communicating via Wi-Fi, listening to music in the car (FM broadcast), or via Bluetooth and using LTE... Even heating our food. Not to mention medical applications like X-rays...

There's a shitload of stuff we use EM for without even thinking. It's all around us, all the time, like the matrix. I love EM science.

This goes to show you that, just because someone discovered a thing, doesn't mean that they have any idea what to do with that discovery, or that the discoveries end there....

Before, reality was just what humans could touch, smell, see, and hear, but after the publication of the charged electromagnetic spectrum, we now know that what we can touch, smell, see, and hear, is less than one-millionth.

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echodot 13 points a year ago

I still like the fact that the guy that invented super glue was very annoyed by how sticky it was.

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Jessvj93 4 points a year ago

And Mantis Shrimp still continue to baffle me in the amount of EM range they can sense/see.

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childOfMagenta 5 points a year ago path: 0 17721119 17722835 17723533, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 1
psud 1 point a year ago

What, jessvj is not baffled? That's an odd thing to study

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bier 8 points a year ago

If only he knew his discovery would lead to the worst car rental company he problem wouldn't have published

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Naz 8 points a year ago

TIL: I'm just like Hertz

Nothing, I guess

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milicent_bystandr 5 points a year ago

Aw, cheer up; someone will apply you in thirty to forty years.

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Allemaniac 5 points a year ago

The germans are really something else, what innovation hasn't sprung from their imagination?

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burgerpocalyse 4 points a year ago
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Skullgrid 9 points a year ago

Not really, he's not stealing something his dad made, using modern tech to smooth over the 60s parts and presenting it as his own invention.

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barsoap 3 points a year ago

You don't understand that's just Hanseatic understatement.

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latenightnoir 1 point a year ago

Did it Hertz when he realised the opposite, or did that happen after his time?

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zaphod 18 points a year ago

No, Hertz never lived to see applications of his discovery. Guglielmo Marconi (was a fascist) started working on radio telegraphy in 1894, shortly after Hertz' death.

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latenightnoir 4 points a year ago

Oof! One of those moments which kinda' make one wish there wasn't an afterlife...

Thank you for the tidbit, though, and fuck Fascists regardless!

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kazerniel 12 points a year ago

One of those moments which kinda’ make one wish there wasn’t an afterlife…

Tada, your wish is reality 🙃

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latenightnoir 4 points a year ago

I'm of the "I don't know, whatever" persuasion=))

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