Yeah, it's really not that complicated!
thoughtorgan 6 points 3 years ago path: 0 2810432 2810887 2814603 2828997, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 0
Pons_Aelius 11 points 3 years ago
Yes, once every person in the USA voluntarily hands in every semi-auto rifle...the cops will decommission the tanks.
Pons_Aelius 27 points 3 years ago
sorry. I thought once every person in the USA voluntarily hands in every semi-auto rifle. made it obvious I was not talking about reality.
Pons_Aelius 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 2810432 2810887 2810979, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
hansl 0 points 3 years ago
This is a bit more obscure than that, but mostly yes.
The real problem is that the army doesn’t want more tanks. They’ve asked congress to stop building armored vehicles. Don’t need money for tanks, want money for R&D.
Congress love building tanks because it falsely creates jobs in their districts. So more tanks. Most of these factories are located in red districts.
Too many tanks and they have to sell them. That’s how police can buy tanks.
Sell all your AR15? Most AR15 owners are in red states. There are direct correlation with voting republicans and owning firearms. So if you decide to sell you AR15 it might indicate you’d switch vote? It’s a stretch but less republicans, more jobs from other types of factories (e.g. Green energy related), less money to build tanks, less armored vehicles being auctioned off to police.
Pons_Aelius 4 points 3 years ago
Your statement applies to both the ar15 and the MRAP..
Sharpiemarker 91 points 3 years ago
I can ask more than one question. They're both valid.
Mr_Pap_Shmear 17 points 3 years ago
how else are they gonna arrest shop lifters?
killeronthecorner 13 points 3 years ago
Boy, if I was a school shooter, I'd hate to see this thing parked up outside at a safe distance with the engine off.
Zoidberg 10 points 3 years ago
Exactly. One of the big outcries to upgrade police weaponry started with the North Hollywood shootout.
apazzy 14 points 3 years ago
The police aren't a part of the community they serve, it's explicitly trained into them to treat every situation as "us" vs "them". If "they" have rifles then "we" need armored vehicles.
Edit: to be very clear, I am not in support of police militarization.
Cinnamon3431 2 points 3 years ago
came to say this
BrisvegasLukass 47 points 3 years ago
No one commonly owns AR15s in Australia. None of our cops have this stupid shit.
lennybird 9 points 3 years ago
What's more is thanks to the gun ban there, the black market cost for a glock handgun not counting ammunition is around $12,000 cash versus what, 10x less in the US?
Now my conservative acquaintances who adore supply-side economics should understand that increasing cost inhibits demand.
InternetUser2012 9 points 3 years ago
They are but the bigger problem is, the cops driving the war machine are part of the nutters.
IDriveWhileTired 1 point 3 years ago
Thank you for stating the obvious. I am not being sarcastic. There is really a need nowadays to state the obvious.
skillissuer 40 points 3 years ago
Own an ATGM for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Police APC column rolls toward my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Stugna-P. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first car, it's dead on the spot. Draw my mortar on the second car, miss it entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the MT-12 mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with APFSDS, "Tally ho lads" the tungsten dart shreds two cars in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix FPV drone and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the more police to arrive since multiple fragmentation wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.
cosmicrookie 36 points 3 years ago
"Because you're allowed to have an AR15"
SpicaNucifera 0 points 3 years ago
Correct. This is one part of the price of our shit gun control.
Kage520 16 points 3 years ago
That's exactly the argument that conservatives always give for gun ownership. But like, how would they possibly overrun the largest military in the world with their personal arsenals?
Maybe they could take a city but I can't see it being a long lasting victory.
Uncaged_Jay 8 points 3 years ago
If anything, the US's engagements in Vietnam and, more recently, the Middle East have shown that eradicating an insurgent force is incredibly difficult, to the point of being almost impossible. On top of that, there are weapons used during the GWOT that wouldn't (shouldn't(?)) Be used against American citizens, unless their goal is to be rulers of the ashes. On top of that, there are plenty of American Servicemembers that would straight up refuse to attack American citizens, and would potentially aid the insurgency with things like vehicles and ammo.
Add on top of that the extensive gun culture and sheer number of veterans in the general US population and I'd say they have a fighting chance.
I say this all as a former military intelligence analyst myself.
SCB -3 points 3 years ago
You were slackin at your job if you don't understand that the majority of people would oppose these insurgents, by definition, since that is how democracy works.
There is no situation in which domestic insurgents would not be crushed utterly. They'd be heavily restricted in movement, denied resupply, theyd lose contact with their families, friends, etc as well as all cellular communication. They would not have air superiority. They wouldn't even be able to contest air superiority. The most advanced counter-terrorism force in human history would be tracking them. When caught, they will absolutely land in Gitmo, at best, and will absolutely give up everything because these are not hardened fighters, these are your neighbors.
The US is a fucking fortress. This is a complete non-starter. We haven't even touched on actual military engagement yet. I'm not convinced it would even ever get to a point where it was necessary.
If it ever was, the US would have to show the world that a challenge to its supremacy on its territory by (now non-)citizens in open rebellion absolutely will not be allowed to happen.
The affected areas will completely locked down. The insurgents will lose all access to travel, because the entire area will. Then it's just counter-terrorist procedure practiced over 20 years thousands of miles away.
brygphilomena 4 points 3 years ago
Insurgent forces are always scary. They know where to hide and they get creative with weaponry. This isn't the revolutionary war with people marching side by side taking shots at the other side.
Besides, that's assuming the military is 100% cohesive in war operations inside this country and against other Americans.
Oh, and ignoring that it might just be the conservatives in power that would be the aggressor and the rest defending themselves from fascists.
Uncaged_Jay 8 points 3 years ago
Your last point is the one that gets me, the left needs firearms as much as the right does if shit hits the fan.
GladiusB 2 points 3 years ago
The bigger problem will be staffing. Who they are you going to get to take on your own town or state? No one wants that job. They want easy criminals that "choose" to act up.
regalia 2 points 3 years ago
This is the meal team six we're talking about lol. One of them would pull out a gun, get shot, then the others would give up right there to go back watching their fox news and drinking diet coke.
FluorideMind 1 point 3 years ago
Just look at how well the largest military in the world held onto Afghanistan.
Texas_Hangover 0 points 3 years ago
Ask Vietnam, or Afghanistan.
Dr_pepper_spray 1 point 3 years ago
....both sides live here though and speak the same language. It's hardly a fair comparison.
musicalsigns -1 points 3 years ago
Because they're all Rambo. Didn't you know that?
regalia 1 point 3 years ago
Meal team 6 ain't going to put up a fight lmao. There is zero chance these dumb random civilians have the ability or desire to kill all the cops. These are the same chuds that want police more heavily armed too and "back the blue". It would literally never happen.
BigBananaDealer 2 points 3 years ago
yeah it would be like a group of settlers going up against the greatest army in the world and somehow winning. absolutely no way that ever happens, or has ever happened, to my knowledge twice at least
Draedron -3 points 3 years ago
Did that army have hellfire missiles and nukes? Or was it maybe the case that this army you mean back then was occupied with more important matters and the settlers had help of powerful other countries? Lets be real, if there ever was a full on authocracy in america it would be celebrated by half your population, usually the gun owning population. All the dictator would need to do is promise to hurt some kind of minority.
FluorideMind 0 points 3 years ago
What a dummy take. "You're helpless against missiles and jets, so why fight back in the first place"
dx1 6 points 3 years ago
I've got no horse in this race, but I'll tell you, the amount of time people spend fixating on AR-15s, when rifles in general (including AR-15s) are only responsible for 3% of gun deaths...it really doesn't give the impression that people are in command of the facts. And it doesn't seem like pretty much any characteristic of a gun being effective for a mass shooting doesn't also carry over to the gun being effective for self-defense against more than a single person. Or even a single person, for that matter. I feel like people just kind of dug their trenches on this one and nobody's really thinking too hard about it.
ClopClopMcFuckwad 0 points 3 years ago path: 0 2848425 2871552 2872100, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
GooseFinger -3 points 3 years ago
Clearly you feel that way but you definitely don't speak for everyone.
SpicaNucifera 31 points 3 years ago
Because you have an AR15.
howsetheraven 4 points 3 years ago
I feel like this is the logical next response. Shit meme.
Thekingoflorda 1 point 3 years ago
In which country?
5714 1 point 3 years ago
Germany:
State Police of Berlin, Brandenburg, Hamburg, NRW, Sachsen, Bayern, MV, RLP have or plan to get Survivor R (Sonderwagen 5).
Federal Police have TM170 (Sonderwagen 4).
France:
RAID of the National Police have Petit Véhicule Protégé and Nexter Titus.
Italy:
Carabineri have RG-12 and VM90.
CharlesDarwin 30 points 3 years ago
Seems fair to ask both questions.
SCB 4 points 3 years ago
Frankly I think you're crazy so call me whatever
Mass shooters already exist and I'd prefer a professional force be prepared to stop them.
We disarm police and they lose the arms race, full stop. People will tribe up for protection, because all it takes is one psycho demanding that be status quo and it becomes that - check literally any developing nation for all the proof you need there. Living in a revenge-killing gang war zone is not my idea of a good time.
Just Google "Haiti" and tell me my deeply purple state wont degrade to open conflict.
charliespider 29 points 3 years ago
I think it was in California in the 90s that some guys tried to rob a bank, but they had full body armour and helmets, and were armed with assault rifles and high capacity magazines. The cops were useless against them as all they had were squad cars, pistols, and a few shotguns. It was a huge wake up call for police forces across America and it didn't take long for them to start acquiring better equipment.
If you don't like the militarization of your police, then you need to do something about the militarization of your general populace.
flying_monkies 22 points 3 years ago
It was North Hollywood, with illegally modified weapons and home made body armor
charliespider 7 points 3 years ago
Thnx for the link. Didn't know their body armour was home made. That's some pretty good dedication to one's trade. Too bad they couldn't have put that talent into something constructive.
butwhyishischinabook 5 points 3 years ago
How dare you point out that this is an example of weapons that have been federally prohibited for a century! Now how can people moderation fallacy their way into sounding reasonable?
flying_monkies 3 points 3 years ago
Not sure what has your panties in a wad over that.
The converted rifles in that crime were not ATF Form 2 weapons, so calling them "illegaly modified" is a true and factual statement.
uis 0 points 3 years ago
I don't have gun context. Just saying that banning sething(i.e. making it illegal) will only increase amount of illegal. Things that are banned will not just "have you seen the law? Well, it seems I shouldn't exist" and disappear.
FlyingSquid 1 point 3 years ago
You can now prosecute people doing harm with new charges. I don't know why that isn't significant. Why does every action have to "fix everything?"
lennybird 0 points 3 years ago
What point are you trying to draw, here?
Taking reliable existing semi-automatic firearms and modifying to fully automatic still would not be feasible for these dunces if they were starting out from scratch (at least not with any semblance of reliability from an engineer's standpoint). Finally, should be noted that there's little reason the outcome would've been different had they been semi-automatic, considering ammunition waste and less attention to accuracy. If their goals were that of the Aurora shooter, then that would be different.
"home made body armor" implies they made it from scratch. No. They used several vests worth of manufactured body armor to make full body armor.
flying_monkies 3 points 3 years ago
What point are you trying to draw, here?
None, I linked the wiki entry for the person who "remembered there was an incident" because I remembered the incident.
What point are you trying ro draw here?
chickenf622 9 points 3 years ago
I think having some higher power weapons for law enforcement in case it ever comes to that is (while related) a different problem than police militarization. I think the best bet would to be have specialized units for those extreme cases they could reasonably deploy in a timely/effective manner. Every cop having access to surplus military gear is a huge problem and I wish weren't to a point where having specific units was even a necessity.
WindInTrees 0 points 3 years ago
These deluded right-wingers don't care about what's true, unfortunately.
charliespider 2 points 3 years ago
Pointing out the likely catalyst that triggered all of the police militarization makes me a bootlicker?
Well that's one way to missinterpret things!
Entropywins 9 points 3 years ago
You've got a good head on your shoulders friend.
sentient_loom 2 points 3 years ago
Yeah like a literal civil war cannon, or a modern missile system.
PoliticalAgitator 1 point 3 years ago
The fat fucks parading around in their plate carriers frothily screaming "shall not be infringed" at traumatised school children aren't going to fire on a tank.
Most of them won't even wear a mask in a pandemic to protect their countrymen, they're definitely not going to die in battle for them. It's who they want to be in their fantasies, not who they actually are.
You know what a lot of them would do though? Enthusiastically vote a fascist and then fire into crowds of people protesting fascist policies.
Arsenal4ever -4 points 3 years ago
The person who made the meme can only think of one thing at a time. Probably hormones.
DragonTypeWyvern 6 points 3 years ago
Yes, cops need tanks to beat AR-15s, not because they're an occupation force that exists to ensure the oligarchy can't be threatened.
DragonTypeWyvern -3 points 3 years ago
You don't need an APC to beat rifle fire.
finkrat 18 points 3 years ago
This highlights a weird side effect of weapons rights. The right to own weapons by the citizens to protect themselves from government tyranny, combined with the need for law enforcement to arm themselves adequately against heavily armed citizens breaking the law, becomes an arms race between the citizens and their country, with whoever is better funded being the winner.
Telling the citizens to drop their weapons doesn't mean the cops drop theirs. Telling the cops to stop arming themselves against citizens just sends them to their death during confrontations.
I suggest we all go play video games instead
flucksy_bango 3 points 3 years ago
None with high scores, at least.
dx1 4 points 3 years ago
Most of that hysteria was about GTA, which in hindsight is really a pretty deep satire of the violent American mentality. Kinda the classic "freaking out about how we should censor a creative work we don't understand" thing.
abbotsbury -4 points 3 years ago
Cool it with the toxic masculinity
SwedishFool 14 points 3 years ago
Wasn't these basically donated because the military had too many? I understand them completely. The SWAT units needs armored trucks, even in Sweden they have Sandcats. The options were these extremely cheap former military MRAPs that are bulletproof, or buy armored civilian vehicles which costs multiple hundreds of thousands.
I'd bark up the tree of military spending rather than the police accepting hand-me-downs.
Justdaveisfine 5 points 3 years ago path: 0 2822582 2830804, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0
Jeanschyso 10 points 3 years ago
Probably one is because of the other, dontcha think?
dx1 9 points 3 years ago
Police militarization is not because of citizens having arms. Rather, overproduction by the military trickles down into surplus sales to domestic police, and they eagerly gobble it up for various reasons such as "they like power", "they like to feel like big men", etc. They aren't outgunned against anything besides a civilian uprising.
Franzia 9 points 3 years ago
My best guess is that this is just one of many things they were able to grt acceas to using federal subsidy programs. The very famous Obama-era 1033, but also The Department of Homeland Security's "Urban Areas Security Initiative".
We all know that they can be used by SWAT, ATF, etc. When it may be needed - but they also get used to intimidate protestors and violate their rights.
over_clox 8 points 3 years ago
Something something Killdozer something something...
Nioxic 7 points 3 years ago
The wildest thing the police in Denmark have is a slightly modified old mercedes minibus or something with bullet proof windows and tough tyres etc
Apart from that one vehicle they have some mini busses and such for transporting. But they arent really special, or built specifically for the police or whatever.
DenSortePingvin 2 points 3 years ago
Det altid spændende når salatfadet sendes ud
PoliticalAgitator -4 points 3 years ago
The guys in white robes bought a gun just as easily and they're thrilled to hear you're armed because it's all the excuse they need to execute you in the street.
Because they won't actually be wearing white robes. They'll just look like any other generic white American male, and they're going to kill you long before you find out their political opinions.
You've sold your minority group out to the gun lobby and now you're doing their astro-turfing for free.
PoliticalAgitator -4 points 3 years ago
You don't just support but advocate laws that arm those men in white robes.
You escalate the problem for everyone else and then have the gall to jump online and tell people its cool, because you've got your gun to keep you safe.
You're not a hero. You're the reason black children get shot in the face for ringing doorbells.
magnusrufus 6 points 3 years ago
No. Black children get shot in the face for ringing door bells because of right-wing fear mongering and deeply entrenched bigotry that exists whether or not minorities arm themselves. You can make the case that bi_tux isn't making anything better and is possibly making it worse but saying they are the cause is a disgusting lie that takes the blame off those that truly deserve it.
Trainguyrom 2 points 3 years ago
The flipside of that argument is folks who wear pointy white caps on weekends really don't like when minorities also have rights to gun access and it makes them squirm a little. A lot of racist people are all bark and no bite and just like to put on a tough guy persona (but of course there's a lot of racist people who will kill someone if given the opportunity)
As long as there's as many weapons in this country as there are, I think it's more important to breed a culture of gun safety before gun restrictions ever have a chance of taking hold
PoliticalAgitator 2 points 3 years ago
The flipside of that argument is folks who wear pointy white caps on weekends really don't like when minorities also have rights to gun access and it makes them squirm a little
A left-wing, pro-gun fantasy instead of a right-wing, pro-gun fantasy but a fantasy nevertheless.
Racists today are feeling more emboldened than they have for 40 years and minorities are no safer.
The guns did nothing and the promises were just hollow propaganda designed to sell guns to both racists and people scared of armed racists.
lennybird -5 points 3 years ago
Too bad that (1) doesn't make you any safer in reality, (2) increases several vectors of risk to you and your family disproportionately, (3) just benefits gun lobbyists and muddies the water of national debate.
thoughtorgan 7 points 3 years ago path: 0 2816153 2822810 2829079, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 18
thoughtorgan 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 2816153 2822810 2829079 2875541 2896100, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
lennybird -2 points 3 years ago
I said not one word about cops, buddy.
When those tools predispose you to a greater risk than the thing it's alleged to resolve, then you're quite literally shooting yourself in the foot.
I'd rather use science and statistics as opposed to these heroic fairy tales not grounded in reality.
thoughtorgan 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 2816153 2822810 2829079 2829167 2896285, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
PoliticalAgitator -4 points 3 years ago
And when minorities are threatened by cops, what's your solution then? What is the exact moment you're advocating that people fire on police?
Gun owners don't give a fuck about minorities, they just want to sell more guns and look cool on the internet with their "need it and not have it" catch phrase.
How do your family members rate on the "not needing" scale? Because a record number of teenagers are blowing their brains out with daddy's gun that he wanted to "have but not need".
FlyingSquid 2 points 3 years ago
A gun didn't save Philando Castile. A gun didn't save Breonna Taylor. Maybe guns don't protect minorities from cops.
bi_tux 2 points 3 years ago
Because a record number of teenagers are blowing their brains out with daddy's gun that he wanted to "have but not need".
How would not having a gun at home have prevented it? You don't need a gun to kill yourself and assuming, that those people would have lifed a happy life if they wouldn't have had acces to a gun is simply wrong.
Dr_pepper_spray 7 points 3 years ago
Okay, but why do you need an AR-15?
corsicanguppy 5 points 3 years ago
A false dilemma crossed with whataboutisms and cherry-picking.
Did I get it right? There's a lot of bad-faith arguments going on there so I may have missed one.
RememberTheApollo_ 2 points 3 years ago
To defend against the tools with arsenals of weapons based on military ones? I mean, neither should be a thing in this society, but here we are.
AngryCommieKender 1 point 3 years ago
Get out of the tank!
skankhunt42 2 points 3 years ago
they get it for free once the military is not using it anymore
Gradually_Adjusting 7 points 3 years ago
1033 program. Because I guess the police unions weren't acting enough like local occupational juntas, apparently
phthalocyanin 2 points 3 years ago
itt: those in the priveledged position to rely on the state for defense of self and community would rob others of the ability to enforce their bodily autonomy and community defense.
'only the [fascist] cops should be armed' brain worms,
enforcing the capital owning class' monopoly of violence (against ourselves),
a negative peace at the expense of justice.
you know-- bootlickers.
FluorideMind 0 points 3 years ago
The only thing keeping the American government from full on tyrany is the first amendment. The only thing keeping the American government from abolishing the first amendment is the second.
MonkderZweite -2 points 3 years ago
Mexico?
ZombiFrancis 5 points 3 years ago
That's from Pulaski County Arkansas. Former Confederate State just doing former Confederate State things.
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The cops justify needing that because you have an ar15.
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