For something you're getting paid for, sure. But if you're contributing in your free time for fun or whatever, presumably you'd prefer to use a language you actually like.

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TeamAssimilation 38 points 7 months ago

Real programmers will write in a way that user’s resources are not being wasted because you need a full browser, a JS runtime, and DOM juggling, to show even the simplest application.

It’s not rare for simple JS applications to consume over half a gigabyte of RAM on startup, and way more CPU than their native counterparts. That this was normalized and even defended is stupid.

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hperrin 58 points 7 months ago

I think you’re thinking of Electron apps, but that’s not really a criticism of JavaScript, that’s a criticism of Electron. There are plenty of JS platforms that don’t require a browser/DOM. React Native is the biggest example. Also, GJS if you want native Linux apps.

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Azzu 15 points 7 months ago

Node does not require an excessive amount of resources.

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racketlauncher831 1 point 7 months ago

But why Node? Node cost five seconds just to start up back when I worked on my embedded ARM v7 platform, and on modern x86_64 computers, npx anything takes just as long. Why rely on another runtime? Why not native binaries instead?

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Azzu 2 points 7 months ago

Because you have to figure out how to build them. And with that I mean, how do you make sure that whatever you're doing will work and work the same way not only on your "embebbed ARM v7" architecture and all the other CPU architectures, but also the operating system libraries included? How do you make it work the same way on Mac, Windows 7, Windows 11, Ubuntu, custom Arch installations, FreeBSD, etc etc?

If you build native binaries, you personally are the one who has to make sure it runs. This means (depending on how much you want to support) a lot of development or support time. (Or you make your users build it themselves and fix errors, which means a massively reduced userbase, good luck with adoption...)

If you use Node, (or other virtual machines) you literally don't have to do anything, because it just works.

You really don't see the value in that?

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CeeBee_Eh 27 points 7 months ago

Real programmers are language agnostic

Thought terminating sentence.

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Sonotsugipaa 17 points 7 months ago

More like, no true scotsman

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Clent 0 points 7 months ago

Real carpenters don't walk away from a job because the hammer is their least favorite brand.

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RheumatoidArthritis 17 points 7 months ago

their least favourite hammer brand:

il_600x600.1166470077_cjnf-721892692

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tinyvoltron 11 points 7 months ago

Real carpenters bring their own hammer.

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homoludens 9 points 7 months ago

I once had a hammer head get loose and fly off the handle.

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MonkderVierte 6 points 7 months ago

But if the screws are nails.

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getoffthatchronic 4 points 7 months ago

It can't be a programming humor post without somehow even more mind-numbing stuff in the comments. Just part of the fun

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termaxima 25 points 7 months ago

Yes and no. "Real" programmers care about engineering choices ; and JS is the cardboard of programming languages.

Perfect for packaging (which in this metaphor is UI), horrible for building a bridge with. And vice-versa, I wouldn't try and make amazon packaging out of reinforced concrete.

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sukhmel 1 point 7 months ago

But for fun both bridge out of cardboard and packaging out of concrete might work, tastes differ ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)_⁠/⁠¯

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30p87 9 points 7 months ago

Sorry, but Rust triggers me way too much.

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lime 4 points 7 months ago

the bash language server is in nodejs...

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cbazero 5 points 7 months ago

And it shouldn't

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sga 1 point 7 months ago

I always knew I am not a real programmer

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luciole 7 points 7 months ago

Also real programmers have impostor's syndrome.

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Redkey 60 points 7 months ago

JS has saved me many hours of mind-numbing, error-prone manual keyboard work by giving me a way to hack together a simple bit of automation as a web page.

Even when a computer has been ham-fistedly locked-down by an overzealous IT department, I can almost always still access a text editor and a browser that will load local HTML files.

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mirshafie 25 points 7 months ago

Add to that the beauty of bookmarklets.

It's silly that IT departments forces us to resort to techniques used before browser extensions became a thing, and it's ironic that it's because they don't know how to code, but here we are.

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dejected_warp_core 2 points 7 months ago

The amount of work I have completed with Tampermonkey in situations like this should have made that same IT department quite anxious.

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melfie 52 points 7 months ago

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sip 17 points 7 months ago

agreed. typescript is excelent, especially if you make it strict and know a bit of complex types to make sure things stay put.

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victorz 7 points 7 months ago

Chiming in as a professional TS dev. It's really a joy to do web dev work in the post TS world.

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biggeoff 4 points 7 months ago

What do you think of JSDoc? As someone who knows neither I find the idea of no required transpilation very appealing, while still getting the TS ecosystem tools.

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victorz 4 points 7 months ago

JSDoc is much more cumbersome than using TypeScript. That's it. It clutters the code in a way that TypeScript somehow avoids. TS types are smoothly integrated in the code itself, IMO. Not as much the case with JSDoc.

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iglou 3 points 7 months ago

Why is transpilation unappealing to you?

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sip 3 points 7 months ago

i wish a more performing language would have this type system. the only other ones I know are Rust which is a bit strict and slow to dev on, and Haskell which is too much.

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victorz 2 points 7 months ago

Fully agree.

I hear good things about OCaml? Anyone tried that?

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RagingRobot 2 points 7 months ago

It's funny because I learned to program with strongly types languages and when I moved over to JavaScript I always complained about it for the longest time but now that I use mostly typescript at work I kind of miss some of the old JavaScript patterns and their flexibility. But for working with large teams or large projects in general it's nice to have typescript

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SethranKada 52 points 7 months ago

Feels the same whenever a project is written in python, but I uninstall it too.

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Quill7513 25 points 7 months ago

why?

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tux0r 70 points 7 months ago

Same, so I’ll only answer for me: Python is dependency hell, also breaking existing code with every second update. Hard pass.

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nixfreak 33 points 7 months ago

Python versioning is terrible

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lauha 20 points 7 months ago

breaking existing code with every second update

Still remembering python 3 release from 17 years ago?

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Ephera 9 points 7 months ago

They have breaking changes in their minor versions...

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SSUPII 17 points 7 months ago

We are no longer in the Python 2 days. You have lots of wiggle room for using the version you want and are rarely forced to use specific releases.

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Jesus_666 29 points 7 months ago

There still plenty of "this version of pytorch doesn't run reliably with Python 3.12, please use 3.10", though. It's not all sunshine and roses.

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lastweakness 5 points 7 months ago

I mean, flatpaks are great...

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tux0r 5 points 7 months ago

Solving problems you shouldn’t have?

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MonkderVierte 1 point 7 months ago

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Ephera 39 points 7 months ago

Personally, I find that (complex) software implemented in Python tends to be so unreliable that I typically don't want to use it after all, but I only find that out after wasting a bunch of time learning the software.
It's just frustrating, especially if I come back to the software every so often, naively thinking that it's been a few versions, so maybe they've fixed it. It's always just different bugs, which still end up being too frustrating to use the software.

To give an example, I like to compose music using Lilypond, which is more-or-less a programming language to create sheet music. And there is a program that's supposed to give you a well-integrated workflow for that (i.e. an IDE), called Frescobaldi.
The first time I tried it, playback of the composed music wouldn't work.
The second time, I couldn't click on notes to jump to the respective code snippet.
And I tried it again a few weeks ago and it just crashed immediately with an obscure error message.

Instead, I've slapped together a script, which just opens the sheet music in my PDF viewer, the code in my normal editor and then uses a CLI tools to generate and playback the sheet music. And while it's definitely not perfect, it has been working more reliably for me than Frescobaldi ever has.

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insomniac_lemon 1 point 7 months ago

I'm going to go with the multiple causes for slowness (and that's interpreted languages in general). In some cases, things might be usable if I weren't on Zen+ still (newer stuff has better IPC among other things).

Things like JIT or no-GIL might reduce that, but I'm not sure that it's that easy to fix (not being default (plus multiple options) seems to complicate bindings even).

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lonlazarus 32 points 7 months ago

Prissy little programmers

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termaxima 26 points 7 months ago

JavaScript really depends on the people writing it restricting themselves to a sane (ish) subset, just like C++

My personal gripe with JavaScript is how horribly slow it is. C++ at least has the merit of being fast once compiled. I wouldn't feel great contributing to a JS project knowing fully well that a rewrite in a faster language would be 10x as effective as anything I could improve as is.

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moseschrute 1 point 7 months ago

That’s funny because I - having not written much C++ - have an irrational hate of the language. But I like JavaScript. I think I need to look at C++ through the same lens I look at JS through.

Imo you can write pretty performant websites in JS. I guess it depends what you’re doing, but e.g. if you pay attention to you’re rerenders in React, you’re gonna have a much better time.

But I also totally understand as soon as you wanna do some compex stuff, JavaScript is not a good time. I don’t think webassembly has worked as smoothly as promised, but in theory, that should let you bring some C++ into the browser.

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termaxima 2 points 7 months ago

JavaScript is great for making websites !

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menas 18 points 7 months ago

Javascript turn our computers into toasters

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lessthanluigi 4 points 7 months ago

You know what they say! All Javascripts Toasts Computers!

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Agent641 1 point 7 months ago

And our toasters into computers

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mexicancartel 2 points 7 months ago

That would be java i guess

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PearOfJudes 17 points 7 months ago

I like minecraft

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tux0r 15 points 7 months ago

Real men use Lisp.

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RalfWausE 8 points 7 months ago

You spelled Forth wrong.

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nixfreak 3 points 7 months ago

Guile hoot is pretty impressive , guile to wasm

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tomenzgg 4 points 7 months ago

Not to mention the entire Guile OS (Guix).

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dreadbeef 1 point 7 months ago

clojurescript

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tux0r 3 points 7 months ago

Oof.

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Feathercrown 14 points 7 months ago

If you care this much about JS being cringe I don't trust you to contribute good code to a project anyways

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moseschrute 9 points 7 months ago

People on here really think the language determines the quality of the project lol

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racketlauncher831 0 points 7 months ago

Not determine, but allows. C is a shitty language too. Linux is great because Linus bars off shitty contributors.

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Supervisor194 13 points 7 months ago

I like JavaScript a lot and would be excited by its use in this context.

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palordrolap 4 points 7 months ago

The Cinnamon desktop environment found in Linux Mint uses JavaScript on the back-end. My knowledge doesn't extend much beyond that (other DEs, and what they do, nor the full extent of JS in Cinnamon), but I did look at it at one point.

Makes me wonder if OP was talking it about that in particular or if there's some other project with a bundled JS interpreter they decided not to work with.

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cypherpunks 10 points 7 months ago

A few lists of javascript WTFs:

https://javascriptwtf.com/
https://github.com/denysdovhan/wtfjs
https://wtfjs.com/ (last updated 2016 but most of these things can/will never be fixed)

To anyone who thinks they know JS well and that its quirkiness is not a problem, let me know how you do on these quizzes:

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moseschrute 7 points 7 months ago

You’re not wrong, but newer version of the language have steered devs away from these quirks. The quirks remain because the JavaScript language is 100% backwards compatible. It’s fun to laugh at these quirks, but I’ve been a full time JavaScript developer for 4 years and part time since 2015, and I’ve never seen any of these quirks come up in the real world. If you tell your developers to use === instead of == in code review, you eliminate most of the problems imo.

JavaScript tooling deserves more hate imo. The ecosystem is kinda a disaster, but Vite is making a lot of progress in fixing that. If you ignore React Native and metro bundler, I think the state of web is looking pretty optimistic right now. At least from a technology perspective. From a business/AI/enshitification perspective we’re cooked lol

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el_abuelo 5 points 7 months ago

this quirkiness doesn't materialise in real world applications on any scale that makes it harder to deal with than the alternatives.

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jpeps 2 points 7 months ago

I got a little under half in the first two, which I'm very happy with haha. JS certainly has some quirks, but you've really got to go looking for them IMO. TypeScript resolves most of these issues with comparing types, and the rest aren't that unique to JS.

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Hupf 2 points 7 months ago

Brian Leroux

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Korhaka 10 points 7 months ago

Unless you are making a HTML/CSS only site (based) what do you want to use instead?

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CanadaPlus 8 points 7 months ago

Invent a new internet where you can script pages directly in Python or TypeScript.

Otherwise, you get to enjoy a silly toy language from the 90's.

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Valmond 2 points 7 months ago

I'm on, but no one is interested.

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racketlauncher831 2 points 7 months ago

I'm 100% sure I can make Rust code (not even compiled to WASM) run natively in a browser like Firefox, given I have enough will power, time, energy, and money. The problem is getting everyone else to agree to this new standard.

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CanadaPlus 2 points 7 months ago

In a scripting language, is there an advantage to no garbage collection? (I honestly don't know)

Someone else also pointed out to me, when I made a similar suggestion, that ability to partially fail but keep going is desirable in a web context. I don't know, maybe there's some way to make Rust do that more automatically than C. Python seems the be the standard for general-purpose scripting, which is why I mentioned it.

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FunkFactory 2 points 7 months ago

Kotlin/JS would be my first choice ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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addie 9 points 7 months ago

I'm in this photo and I don't like it.

More specifically, my programming background is in industrial automation and I'd like to add some more 'robust and flexible' algorithms to CoolerControl so I can control my system fans / temperature better, but it's written in a mix of TypeScript and Rust.

I've spent 20 years programming hard real-time z80 assembly and know quite a few higher-level languages. (Although I prefer the lower-level ones.) Not those ones, however, so it's not just a couple of hours work to raise a PR against that project. Going to need to crack some books.

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moseschrute 6 points 7 months ago

Genuinely curious, how many of you hating on JS have done professional frontend work recently? If you have done professional work, was it part/full time, using TypeScript, how big was your eng team, did you have to worry about Server Side Rendering? Maybe some extra context will show certain types of projects yield devs that hate the language.

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MonkderVierte 4 points 7 months ago

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thevoidzero 5 points 7 months ago

I don't know what you mean by supports tray but have you tried KDE connect? It has a lot more features than just sending files but I use it for a few things.

And if you don't care about having GUI, I love miniserve for sharing files. It'll open a web server and you can connect to it to download/upload files.

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TheFederatedPipe 2 points 7 months ago

Localsend is built with Dart/Flutter.

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MonkderVierte 0 points 7 months ago

The same but different.

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eemon 3 points 7 months ago

So true.

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url 2 points 7 months ago

I that's me😁

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calisti 2 points 7 months ago

Written in PHP

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sirico 2 points 7 months ago

This meme should be rewritten in js

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cupcakezealot 1 point 7 months ago

id say it could be worse it could be written in dhtml but that's pretty much better than js these days

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hperrin 1 point 7 months ago

Some of the best software is written in JavaScript.

Uptime Kuma
Immich
Supabase
VS Code/VSCodium
Ionic (what the Voyager Lemmy client is written in)
Expo/React Native (which powers probably a third of your apps)

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arcterus 40 points 7 months ago

This doesn't really conflict with the post. They use and appreciate the software, so presumably it's decent. You can write good software in any language, so it doesn't prove that the language itself is good. IMO JS is a popular language, not a good language.

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hperrin 5 points 7 months ago

What makes it not good?

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arcterus 21 points 7 months ago

The completely bizarre implicit type conversions, for one thing.

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hperrin 7 points 7 months ago

I’ve never really found the type conversions that bizarre, unless you’re doing something weird like casting an array to a string or number. I don’t really use strange type casts, since I use TypeScript and avoid using the “==“ operator. What other things make it not good?

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FrankDeath 3 points 7 months ago

https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

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hperrin 2 points 7 months ago

Yes, if you do silly things with JS, you generally get silly results instead of TypeErrors. I wouldn’t say that makes the language bad. It makes the language resilient to bad programming, which you’d generally want in the case of web pages.

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CeeBee_Eh 16 points 7 months ago

Taking Immich as an example, there's a lot of heavy lifting happening there behind the scenes in external libraries that are not written in JS.

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hperrin 1 point 7 months ago

It’s written for Node and Svelte. But sure, just like nearly all other software, they use external libraries.

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Oisteink 6 points 7 months ago

So uptime kuma being written in JS proves what about the language?

90% of the worst software and websites are made in js

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hperrin 11 points 7 months ago

Well, all websites are written in JS (on the frontend), so I don’t think that’s fair. And I don’t think 90% of the worst software is made in JS. Even if you’re an Electron hater, Electron apps aren’t bad software, they’re just bloated. There’s tons of shit software written in C. I would guess a lot more than is written in JS, just because more software is written in C. C is also way easier to shoot yourself in the foot.

Uptime Kuma (and others) show that JS can be used to make awesome software. The language doesn’t really hold you back, it’s just your own skill. If you suck at writing software, it doesn’t matter what language you use, your software will be shit.

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Oisteink 6 points 7 months ago

So any language is good as I can make great software using it?? IMO js is still a mess and NPM is really full of shit code to prove it.

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hperrin 5 points 7 months ago

I didn’t say that. You can make great software in Brainfuck, but I don’t think anyone has ever said it is good because of that.

People do make good software in JavaScript. Knowing JavaScript is an exceptionally useful skill, and JavaScript is pretty easy to become decent at. The learning curve for JavaScript is relatively low. As such, there are tons of JS devs, many of which want to make cool things. JavaScript is undeniably an approachable language. Whether you personally think it’s a good language doesn’t have any bearing on that, but that means tons of people are going to use it to make cool software. To me, its approachability is one of the many things that make it good.

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The_Decryptor 4 points 7 months ago

Well, all websites are written in JS (on the frontend)

Not true anymore unfortunately, some sites are using frameworks compiled to WASM instead.

e.g. X is apparently using Yew now.

Edit: Ok the "apparently" is doing heavy lifting, since now I can't find the original source I read about it. Turns out "X" is a garbage name with no searchability, only an idiot would use it.

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path: 0 20659428 20659691 20659757 20663237, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0

MonkderVierte 3 points 7 months ago

Using only VSCodium in this llist. But not much, because i always have to close it on evening, or the casual game with 300 mods wouldn't run beside it and the webbrowser reserving about half of my 32 GB RAM.

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hperrin 2 points 7 months ago

Your VSCodium reserves ~8 GB of ram? You might want to check the extensions you’re using. I’ve got mine running with tons of open files and it’s using ~2 GB.

Also, you should definitely give Immich a try. It’s an awesome piece of software.

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path: 0 20659428 20664081 20671202, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

fushuan 1 point 7 months ago

Technically typescript. I know it transpiles to J's but half the complaints I read are about the typo conversion and so on, which ts heavily alleviates.

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racketlauncher831 1 point 7 months ago

VS Code is a good software? I beg to differ. It's slow. It's messy to look at. It's resource hungry.

If you think VS Code is a good editor, we can make an even better editor in another language.

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path: 0 20659428 20700065, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2

hperrin 1 point 7 months ago

It is resource hungry. I’ll give you that. But it’s neither slow nor messy to look at. Have you ever used NetBeans or Eclipse?

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racketlauncher831 1 point 7 months ago

You are comparing it to Eclipse. I also give you that.

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programmer_humor

@programming.dev

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programmer_humor

@programming.dev

Welcome to Programmer Humor!

This is a place where you can post jokes, memes, humor, etc. related to programming!

For sharing awful code theres also Programming Horror.

Rules

Keep content in english
No advertisements
Posts must be related to programming or programmer topics

go to feed...