I guess the important thing is that one should do other things in addition to voting for the bland somewhat shitty candidate that's at least better than the other guy.

Unionising and getting involved on the local level are two good starting points. Encouraging others to unionise and to get involved locally is also good.

Oh, and reading up on alternative election systems and teaching people about it would be good, but maybe too ambitious. Who wants to listen to anyone ramble on about ranked choice or whatever.

Y'all really need to reform your voting system. We have a preferential system over here in Australia. It's not perfect but it feels like our democracy is a lot more robust and diverse because of it.

This is why I, at the time, was sort of happy that trump won. I hoped that dems losing what they thought was a sure win to an assclown like trump would make them shape up and put forward some actual candidates that the people could truly get behind. Instead they doubled down with milquetoast shitlibs. We're never going to get out of this rut of voting for the lesser evil without ranked choice voting.

Then be your own Goldie Wilson. Run yourself. Enough of my neighbors have told me that I should run, that I am even though I don't believe I am qualified.

I'm running for city council, but if I win in 2026, the fascist that currently holds the chair, and constantly complains about it, won't be attempting to actively harm the community the way they currently are.

Also if I win, and continue winning the 2 terms of city council, 2 terms of mayor, then I'm done, because I'll be 60 at that point and served 16 years in government. At most they could get another term or two out of me as a state level senator or representative. I'm not sticking around past my 60s. Got too much to do.

Just to clarify that this is something that happened often for primaries? That's new to me, even the primaries for 2020 election it didn't seem to have that outright pressure and just politicians and people in public eye endorsing one or the other.

The talk of even if you don't like then vote for them cuz other is worse I only heard really leading up to presidential election.

For what it is worth though I do not watch the news or talking heads and never have, I always prefer reading articles, so maybe I'm just out of the loop on that part of our culture.

I think a big part is that progress is slow, I want it faster but as the old generation dies off we will get further left politicians but also right so hopefully with internet and general empathy we can overcome conservatives.

I’ve stopped voting for the worst of two evils. I leave it blank.

Yeah, both sides aren't the same. How do you deal with the 20% of the country that want a fascist government and the 30% who are ok with it as long as it keeps taxes low and punish the "right people"?

I'm just venting in my reply to your comment; this isn't a criticism of what you said.

However recognise also.... nothing is solved by voting biden in instead of Trump. Since the issue isn't Trump the person, but the wider politican movement. There will be next trump after this trump and next trump after that trump. Names change, the situation doesn't.

It's just kicking the can down the road for another 4 years. Nothing more, nothing less. US voters and system really need to do some hard long term thinking and planning to come up with a plan to actually solve the issue. Instead of keeping kicking the can down the road for 4 years at a time. Since again (as with Trump in 2016) the can doesn't get kicked along for yeat another 4 years. Instead when USA goes to kick the can, it is actually this time a glass bottled molotov, that bursts in flames upon being tried to be kicked yeat again.

You throw corrupt around like it has meaning when it’s nothing more than compromise. It’s compromise in order for the party to get into power, not corruption… conflating the two is ignorant to the fact DNC wouldn’t not get into power ever without it.

Welcome to the democratic process.

Yeah try telling that to Hexbear and see how well that goes for you lol

Yep Bernie is right, 100%.

A city in Ontario changed FPTP voting and the following year the provincial government forced them to change back even though the majority favored it.

Does this inform your opinion?

I mean, if Trump won and abolished all elections and declared himself dictator for life, then West's chances of being elected president as a third party candidate wouldn't actually change one way or the other.

So maybe being a feckless third party candidate in an authoritarian neofascist dictatorship isn't really that different from being a feckless third party candidate in a constitutional democracy.

Or just like, compete in a Democratic primary like Bernie did. Maybe don't shoot for president on your literal first attempt, but you can if you really want to. Bernie was way more successful in promoting his message running in those Democratic primaries than any of the random Greens have ever been.

a 3rd party run to succeed with US style FPtP voting in place

However as 2016 showed it is also impossible for the FPTP lesser of two evils routine to keep kicking the can down the road forever, you eventually will land on the "bandit" sector on trying to yet again run the Russian roulette of "surely the fear of the greater evil will again make the lesser evil win".

Since lesser of two evils too long leads to apathy. People won't be rebelling by voting for Trump, by voting for even Cornel West, they won't be even really rebelling at all. Instead they will be so disillusioned by decades of lesser of two evil, they will instead sign up for extra shift of work or decide to sleep in bed to rest for a day instead of going voting.

The great enemy of Democrats is not Trump, it is sleeping peoples party and you don't win against sleeping peoples party with negative campaigning and fear mongering. It will just make them sleep more. Only thing to make them awake is positive campaigning. Likeable, popular, enthusiasm generating candidates and platforms. The message of "no we can make a change" instead of "please help us keep the status guo alive for 4 more years by kicking the can down the road by preventing greater evil for these four years."

Who do you think is smarter, a leading intellectual, harvard professor and still relevant figure or a kbin poster?

While I don't prescribe that smarts matter perspective does and my perspective is that it seems you are missing something. Do you think a person critically looking at our system and having spoken with very learned people for decades knows more than you or maybe talks on a different framework? I sure hope you do reflect on that again.

Have you considered that Cornell West supporters don't want Biden either? Maybe in their eyes the only choices are to vote for West or to not vote at all.

It's a symptom of the winner takes all election system.. Its most stable with one or two major parties. The hope for more parties is one reason some of us push for instant runoff elections, but it "confuses" people so its not had the traction I'd like.

It seriously gives some really bad incentives.

Yes, voting for Biden is better... But it also very much allows the Democrats to abuse the situation and put whoever they want on there. Because the alternative will always be worse. And so you're destined to always having an acceptable president, but never a great one that people really want.

We have a parliament here and, yeah, it's so much better in basically every way. I can actually vote for what I want and not have to worry that it's not strategic. Because I'm the end it will just empower the party and thus give them more negotiating power.

The Netherlands has proportional vote, that's why.

With electoral circles instead of PV, mathematically the two largest parties get way more representatives than the percentage of the public votes they get, and the bigger the electoral circles and fewer the representatives the worse it gets.

(Further, voters own behaviour changes to one of "useful vote" rather than "choosing those who better represents them", plus tribalism becomes way more extreme when there is only a black & white choice - so lots of votes are driven by team loyalty - all of which makes it even worse)

(Also smaller parties dissapear, both because they can't secure funding and because their members lose hope of ever making a difference. The closest you get to "small parties" in the US are independents, running for a very specific electoral circle only and whose voice is a drop in the ocean in a place like the US Congress)

The US has single representative very large electoral circles for Congress and double representative State-sized electoral circles for the Senate, so their system is rigged to pretty much the max it can and the result is a power duopoly.

I lived in The Netherlands and now I live in a country where the system is somewhat less so (smaller electoral circles, multiple representatives per circle) and even here you see the two largest parties getting and extra 10-20% each representatives in parliament compared to the popular vote (the governing party has 56% of parliamentary seats on 42% of votes cast) whilst the smaller parties have half as many representatives as their popular vote (in other words, every vote for a smaller party counts less than half as much as a vote for a large party, which is hardly democratic).

Most so-called "democratic" nations have this kind of rigged system, but places like the US and Britain take it to the extreme, so it's unsurprising that when the economic supercycle is at the point where the many start hurting, in the absence of true choice you get instead the internal takeover of the rightmost of the party dupoly by the Trumps and Boris Johnsons of this world offering an ultra-nationalist far-right populist mix of othering, scapegoating and simple "solutions".

(Funilly enough if you compare The Netherlands with Britain, whilst even now the far-right is stuck at maybe 20% in the former, in the latter it took over the Tory Party from the inside - which is far easier than convince half the population to vote for them - and hence has been in power for almost a decade with an absolute majority).

We also have more than 2 parties in Spain, however the way votes are counted it's better to vote for the big parties than the local ones. Literally, voting your local party and them supporting the big "left" party will amount less seats than just voting the big party. Usually people vote locally but since we have the looming danger of the extreme right party, people have been focusing on the big left, just to ensure that we don't get Vox.

Still having more than 2 parties promotes discussion and makes it really difficult for a party to go rogue.

in theory, in practice strategic votes still matter for the actual government because parties can just decide not to work with someone and the biggest party gets first picks for the coalition

meaning that in practice, having the biggest party still matters massively, and in a mostly right wing country, the right gets to vote for who best represents them, while the left still has to vote strategically if they want to take actual administrative positions

The system is rigged, hence the only choice is between evils.

No wonder american politicians are constantly harping about how the US is such a "Great Democracy" - it's to compensate just how much the mathematically rigged for political duopoly american system fails to represent the will of the average citizen, unlike an actual Democracy.

Then run. I am. Not because I wanted to, it wasn't my idea. My neighbors keep telling me that I should. If I can take the seat away from the fascist that currently holds it, in the 2026 election, I'll consider that the only real win I need.

…. You watch republicans force kids to detransition and say “yeah but the dems are just as bad”?

Like I get that they’re not perfect but holy fuck shit jesus are the republicans a bunch of ghouls. Not a single candidate even acknowledged that climate change is happening at their debate; I got kids who will have to grow up in this world dude.

Both sides my ass, only one is trying to make gilead a reality and just because the other doesn’t pass leftist purity testing doesn’t put them on the same level as actual fascists.

i prefer just not to vote for racist, transobobic, and capitalist parties and their candidates.

Agreed, but with one caveat. You are the better candidate. Stop waiting for someone else to take the job, they all have imposter syndrome too, so fucking go for it and keep the fascists out at the local levels, not just the federal.

I am putting my money where my mouth is and self funding my campaign for city council in 2026.

Not to mention, thanks to the electoral college there are only 5 to 8 states that actually get to decide who is President. My current State has voted for a Republican every year since 1964. I would have had to have been born in 1943 to have a fraction of my vote count nationally. I still vote, but I live in a State where I might as well write in someone I believe in for President. If Biden wins, that's better than Trump, but it's still so bad. As my body is breaking down at a job that doesn't pay for a house I can't afford, asking us to wait 4 years for someone better is insulting.

Why don't you do better, democracy is not "them up there", it needs everyone. You are as responsible as any one else. You know better, why aren't you in the ballot?

You know the Democratic Party isn't a monolith right? It's voters decide mostly who is in charge. If people want a candidate other than Biden they can vote for them in the primary.

Since no viable candidates have shown up, Biden is the best option for now

It was the same in the 2016 Elections too. Most left-leaning people I talked to did not want Hillary in office, but they wanted Trump not in office more than Hillary - so a vote for Hillary it was.

Honestly, both parties fucking suck, and it sucks even more that our options are literally “right-leaning centrists” and “fascism”.

There's a lot of things to march on the street for, but too be honest as an outsider, national voting reform to bring in a truly democratic system (not first past the post...) needs to be at the top of the list.

So many things broken in your political system flows from it.

You say that, but Biden dominated the Primary in 2020. I wanted Warren. I'd have been ok with Bernie. But I have to admit, Biden just had so many more votes.

The US is filled with conservatives. Most Democratic voters are simply sane conservatives. Biden is their idea of a good candidate. An economic neoliberal that believes in modest safety nets and personal freedom when not at the expense of others. More importantly, he believes in compromise (something Democrats need because their constituents are not single-issue voters, and often have different opinions on the issues)

It would be cool if more people were more progressive in the US. But the media doesn't really want to make that possible.

That's all democracy ever is. A check to keep the worst people from being in power. Non-democracies don't have this, you have to use violence to remove bad people from power. And most likely die trying to do it.

They really should tech in schools how voting really works. Figure out who the worst one is, and vote for the one that is most likely to beat the worst one. You never get everything you want in one election cycle, you have to keep on voting again and again and over a few decades you get some progress. It sucks but it's better than the alternatives.

That's why voting is a duty, it sucks, but you have to do it.

They should run Obama. Not that one. The other one. But Hillary would probably have her murdered.

If your whole selling point is “Yeah, things are still gonna be shit for you, but at least we’re not Nazis!” then at some point you’re going to lose again.

Exactly what happened in Italy. Why is the left all over the world unable to present an actually competent and charismatic candidate?

Then run yourself. Be your own Goldie Wilson. I am, though that is because my neighbors keep telling me to run for city council. The only difference between me and the old fucks that are currently holding the seat is just 40 years of age, and I'm over 40.

America needs ranked voting so we can get out of this two party loser cycle

No-one wants Biden but the electoral math makes it the better choice than Trump or implicit Trump (not voting).

I wouldn't caucus for him, but if I was a US citizen I'd hold my nose and vote.

By far the lesser evil but the lesser evil is still evil. Would be swell if there was a non-evil option just this once!

As south park so eloquently put it, you're either voting for a giant douche or a turd sandwich.

I don’t like him but I have to vote for him because the alternative is worse

as you will be doing for the rest of your life; never voting for the candidates you like and you'll never be given the chance because of democrats. meanwhile your political opposites will perpetually be getting the candidates that they do like and a plethora of choices.

This is what the extreme Right did. The Moral Majority would show up at every local GOP meeting. If the local club usually had twenty people at the meeting, the MMs would show up with fifty. Picking the candidate for dog catcher or justice of the peace? The MM were there and they made sure they got their candidate in.

Nixon did something similar. After he failed to win the Senate seat he hit the road and campaigned hard for every GOP he could find. By 1968 he had dozens of delegates to the national convention in his pocket.

I like Bernie but he should retire and coach the next generation of Dem leaders

There's no way he makes it as the actual candidate.

I'm a republican and I can say that I and plenty of others like me will be voting blue if that absolute disgrace becomes the primary candidate.

Republicans lie about the things they do and get attention for it because of how they get the message out.

Democrats need to do a better job of promoting the things they do accomplish. Don't need to lie, just do a better job of getting the press to write stories about the positive things they do. They need to call Republicans who have racist policies racist instead of dancing around it. A few are doing it, but are ignored because they aren't party leadership.

Biden needs to call Trump a racist and a fascist on national TV. Get the public motivated! Taking the higher ground doesn't get people motivated, it just means more of the status quo.

Could the democrats put someone under the age of 60 in place?

Can you wait 4 years while we narrowly avoid literal fascism? Jesus fucking Christ... We have the incumbent advantage, it would be foolish to give that up considering the clear and present danger that the alternative presents.

Biden wins a second term, and the Dems will have 4 years to choose a younger candidate to run next time.That is when we need to fight to make sure we don't end up with another 80 year old, or with someone like Kamala Harris as our next choice.

Can someone put into words why it seems impossible to find/nominate a proper (democrat) candidate out of the whole USA population?

Ever since Obama and maybe even before, it has been so difficult. What stops the good people from advancing.

At least under 70

STAR voting would fix everything. This website goes into more detail.

The simplified science of it all says that if a voting method forces you to choose between candidates or rank them in a fixed order, then that very ranking will, over time, promote two dominant parties. (Arrow's Theorem)

A cardinal voting system, such as STAR, is immune to Arrow's Theorem. STAR was designed to be the absolute best voting system possible. It's easy to use, easy to count, and gives better results than any other system.

The DNC would never allow it. They have actively worked against him twice and at least once they took bribes. Ahem. Sorry. Contingency based donations.

Him telling anyone to back Biden shows they have a political gun to his back, but God do we need him in office. Too bad the rich are for some reason opposed to taxing the the rich 🤷

Bernie is telling everyone Joe Biden is a good guy and his friend.

I agree a lot except that anything is inevitable.

For example I see drastically different discussions happening on a much larger scale than ever before, with a lot of new ideas gaining more momentum and becoming a common enough public opinion.

I also have a ton of hope for gen z. They seem the generation with the most educated and socially aware youth. Once they are voting and running I'm really hopeful that's when progress will start making quicker headway. It's just survival, treading water until we get there. Maybe I'm naive, I need that hope though.

The problem with democracy is that humans are actually stupid fucking apes and they fear math, so they simplify the math to the point of undermining the whole system.

This problem also shows up in some welfare systems with a simple rather than gradual cutoff if you start working more. Stay below 60% employment or lose all help immediately.

This is a bit of an odd take considering other countries already have better versions of democratic systems. Just take a page out of their books.

There best form of government is an enlightened despot, it so I've read. However if the wind of the king are law, then when things go bad, they really go bad. And the transition of power gets ugly.

I would love to see AOC run but I'm not even American so I'm just watching the dumpster fire from a distance

Can you tldr the tldr?

The last time we had a radical departure from those that came before them in the white house (politically speaking, not skin color) we had a 4 year long Civil War backlash.

Are we ignoring the New Deal Dems or what, now? They were a major departure from everybody else before and Roosevelt even threatened to pack the Court when they tried to rule some of his policies unconstitutional.

fake leftists propping up Trump

Huh?

Honestly, this whole thing feels eerily similar to the rise of Hitler - Even Trump facing legal troubles matches well enough

Seriously. There were people getting kidnapped in protests because Trump sent in the border guard to "defend" a court house. That's way beyond "the status quo protects order and property first and foremost".

propping up Trump

Millie, you yourself posted in the huge thread on hexbear where the entire site agreed that they hate trump.

You posted here after you posted there. You had your disagreements there, but please accurately represent them.

You ignored all the previous times we grilled you for your ignorance, get a grip, you can read.

Okay, cool. Won't disagree. How does voting for someone else, or not at all, help?

Like, okay, the system's broke. But we're stuck in the broke system (for now). Is it somehow wrong to want to lessen the harm the disease does while the cure is being made? Even if that difference is marginal?

Ok, so trump is worse. Good to see we acknowledge that.

But if we were to assume for a moment that the other choice could literally be trump in the upcoming election, then nows not the freaken time for this shit.

Nows not the time to "bite the bullet" when it's going to be the literal reason we aren't biting the bullet.

At some point people on the left have to bite the bullet and run candidates from the ground up in order to get someone who has ANY chance to actually change anything. In the meantime the sane people must hold the ground against fascist authoritarians by not allowing them to get into power at all costs - this means voting for the lesser evils until someone with a chance of a snowball in hell moves into position. That is how the crazies got their man into power. Schoolboards, county officials, mayors, even dog catchers must be pushed up the ladder of power. Anything less is just blowing smoke.

We need to forcefully reform the US political system... doing everything in our power to bust the current party system. There should never be a scenario where one party controls anything even remotely resembling power.

The first step is national RCV on all matters. Until we can get that, there is no other peaceful path forward.

Edit: The second step is aggressive campaign finance reform. The third is limiting all representative groups to day-to-day operations only, while guaranteeing that all legislative matters anywhere in the country are vetted ONLY by a public vote.

The US has like the worst election system and it needs to change but that change will not happen if fascists are in power. The only option you guys have is vote for the lesser of two evils and organize and gather support while they are in power. First step would be getting ranked voting passed locally in my opinion. The alternative is just being the ideologically purest in a death camp. And besides voting is pretty easy even in the US from what I heard.

I mean, yeah! Trump's facing 91 felony charges at my last count, and been indicted at least 4 times, but sure. Ain't nobody doin' nothin'.

Maybe the last few years of Trump's fascist authoritarian rhetoric have confused you, but the President does not, and never should, prosecute crimes. Despite its obvious flaws, we have a legal system for a reason.

Okay. As a moral standpoint, I understand that. Hell, I support it.

But from a pragmatic standpoint... what good does that do?

I’d vote for Bernie but not Biden

You will do what Putin wants which is the opposite of what Bernie wants. Got it Ivan.

You can hold your principles high above everyone else as the person you hate the most wins. Least you didn't vote for him, right?

Sadly, First Past The Post means your vote will be wasted and essentially count as a non vote