[Meta] New Rules, and New Future

2 months ago by dohpaz42 to c/comicstrips

Well hello again everybody! This has been a wonderful past couple of days. I want to give a huge thank you to everybody who participated in my Under New Management post from Thursday. There was a lot of great feedback, and it will go a long way to helping me better understand all of your wants and needs for this community. Yay!

Yes, this will be wordy. Read it anyway. I will try to be concise.

I spent the entirety of Thursday afternoon and evening working through the over 600 reports that existed for the community. There are still a little less than 200 more left to work through. To be fully transparent, I was given the option of simply mass clearing all of the reports so that I could start with a clean slate. Halfway through, it was very tempting to take the powers-that-be (PtB) up on their generous offer. 😅 But, I wanted to see the reports and see what was being reported (and also by whom). Again, this is my way of learning about this community and its members.

The first thing I want to say is this: for the time being, I have decided that @beep@piefed.world is allowed to stay – with conditions. I have reached out privately to them about their past behavior, and they conveyed that they will respect the rules going forward. I have conveyed back to them that their continued use of the community is contingent on their ability to not break the rules going forward (especially with the alteration of comics). With this said, I fully expect this to ruffle quite a few of those proverbial feathers. But, for better or for worse, the decision is made. Please do not report their posts/comments merely because of who they are. If you do report them for anything, do it because it actually breaks the rules (be sure to be specific about what rules).

With this out of the way, I also want to take a moment to welcome the following people to our moderation team:

They have each reached out in some capacity to ask for this job, and I see no reason to not bring them aboard to help out. I expect that they will do their very best to ensure that this community, and its visitors, are treated fairly and with the upmost respect they deserve. Let's be sure that they get the same in return. Everyone made it a strong point that we are all adults here, so let's be sure to act like it.

Mac 54 points 2 months ago

While i think Beep is objectively a bad person, i see no reason they can't post here if they respect the rules. It's really not that beep deep.

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Nima 40 points 2 months ago

"I have decided that beep(at)piefed.world is allowed to stay – with conditions. I have reached out privately to them about their past behavior, and they conveyed that they will respect the rules going forward."

oh cool! i totally trust a poster who posted specifically in bad taste in order to fight with as many people possible to stand by his weird obsessive stance.

i also totally trust the dude that instantly made alt accounts and alt communities just so he could attempt to evade bans and new rules.

I'm so happy to hear he promised this time! that makes such a huge difference!

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TheTechnician27 37 points 2 months ago

I don't trust them either given they explicitly disobeyed rules before (which I'm sure hundreds of people pointed out to them, e.g. about post limits), but I can promise you I'll be keeping an eye on what they post here. They won't get the same leeway again, and I think it's a reasonable olive branch by jerkface given that they are able to post good material here when they stick within the rules – and, in my mind, so that the catalyst of the mod transition doesn't steal the spotlight as a singular reason for the transition. This isn't just "/c/comicstrips but beep isn't here", and I think that conveys that message while giving beep plenty of rope, so to speak.

We'll keep them in check, and it won't be a problem again. Rehabilitation where it's possible, and I think it's possible here.

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Nima 11 points 2 months ago

i understand.

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TheMinions 4 points 2 months ago

I was pretty anti-post limits, but after seeing lemmyshitpost today… well. I can understand why they’re in place.

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TheTechnician27 7 points 2 months ago

Yeah, several factors converge to make a bunch of daily posts (even well-meaning) a bad idea to allow; among them:

The threadiverse is small enough that basically anything with even tepid reception shows up on 'All'. So users who are lukewarm on the community but don't want 5 million posts per day are incentivized to just block it altogether instead of whack-a-mole problematic users.
It crowds out posts from other users, propagating a monoculture.
It incentivizes the poster to value quantity over quality.
It's much harder to properly moderate.
It dilutes discussion around a bunch of posts instead of in-depth commentary around a handful of posts.
It causes ceaseless arguments that can even dominate the community (hell, even leak out of it) when one or two users get way out-of-hand.

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moakley 3 points 2 months ago

Did you end up removing his posts with the altered comics? Or are they still out there to disseminate his inferior versions across the internet?

And just to be clear, I think not banning beep is an idea with no upside.

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TheTechnician27 -4 points 2 months ago

The only rule Beep was breaking at the time was the per-day post limit. While cleaning that up would be tedious, it'd still be doable; the main reason we haven't (that I know of) is that those posts are long-since submitted and have hundreds of existing discussions which other users contributed to. The per-day post limit is mainly relevant for new posts, so enforcing that rule as it should've been when they were posted wouldn't really accomplish anything except make a lot of user comments inaccessible. It'd be functionally random, too – starting at the first posts, leaving post n and post n + 1, then removing everything until the next 24 hours after post n, loop until we get to the last post they made before it was upped to 5 and Beep was forced to stop breaking it. (That wasn't your question; just addressing it since it has the more complicated answer.)

As for the altered comics, there was no rule in place at the time that comics need to be unaltered and have attribution. We (at least I) don't do ex post facto rule enforcement. Of the existing reports for posts/comments made before dohpaz42's rule changes, none (that I saw) were for violations of the rules that existed at the time, so the only reports I ended up acting on were the ones that violated Lemmy.World's terms of service.

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moakley 6 points 2 months ago

That makes sense for allowing beep to stay. I still don't think it's the right move given the extreme level of bad faith in which he operated, but ok, you guys are making a point about objectivity. Rules shouldn't apply ex post facto to members of the community.

However. Rules should and typically do apply ex post facto to content. If I dig up an old comic with the word "fuck" in it that was never removed, would you remove it now that curse words are allowed? Or would you say there's no current rule against it, so it stays?

I'm sure it would stay. Common sense wins out in that case, just as it should in the other case.

The point of having rules around content isn't to punish users who break the rules. It's to shape this place into the community we want it to be. If we want it to be a community that respects artists, then we need to remove the content that's so blatantly and aggressively disrespectful to artists.

Posts that broke the per-day rule or the old NSFW rule aren't harming anyone. But these posts that are an intentional perversion of a creator's art, removing their name and in some cases surreptitiously modifying the content of the picture, are passively harming those artists every day that they exist in this community. You're leaving them out there to be found and disseminated, to supercede the artist's original work.

I seriously doubt the community values artist integrity less than "hundreds of existing discussions" about what an asshole the poster is, so I think this should be a pretty easy stance to take.

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i_stole_ur_taco 25 points 2 months ago

Welcome new mods!

Hold onto your butts.

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slazer2au 16 points 2 months ago

.dlǝɥ noʎ ɟᴉ ʎluO

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MastKalandar 2 points 2 months ago

How did you manage to do that ?

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slazer2au 1 point 2 months ago

¿ʍʇɐɯ ʇɐɥʍ op

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MastKalandar 2 points 2 months ago

Yes, that

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slazer2au 18 points 2 months ago

.llɐ ʎɐp'פ

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18107 9 points 2 months ago

ᴉɥ

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TheTechnician27 6 points 2 months ago

(;＠‾＠) dlǝɥ ǝsɐǝlԀ

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18107 5 points 2 months ago

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+a+barrel+roll

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surewhynotlem 12 points 2 months ago

But what about beep@lemmynsfw and beep@lemmy.world? Will only one of his personalities behave? Can't wait to find out

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OpenStars 10 points 2 months ago

Personally I am more concerned with the ones not yet made, as the known ones are already blocked. :-|

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spankinspinach 11 points 2 months ago

Welcome mods! Looking forward to an active mod team, thanks for taking on the challenge!

Kudos, dohpaz, on the call about beep. The ban hammer is an easy out; I think this shows a lot of integrity and a considered approach to a controversial situation.

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nocturne 10 points 2 months ago

The first thing I want to say is this: for the time being, I have decided that beep is allowed to stay

That is disappointing to hear.

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TheMinions 27 points 2 months ago

I think if you follow the rules as they’ve been laid out now, you should be allowed to stick around.

Previously the rule requiring a source or attribution link was not a rule.

While I don’t agree with Beep’s public POV on how website links for the artists are equivalent to an advertisement, it wasn’t against the rules. Just kind of rude.

If they’re willing to follow the rules now, they can stay. It’s that easy.

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floquant 7 points 2 months ago

Also holy sheet what happened to not feeding the trolls? The whole thing was obvious bait and so many people took it

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MyBrainHurts 9 points 2 months ago

Thanks, much appreciated!

Modding a big community is a herculean effort but needed if we want the fediverse to thrive, so thanks for stepping up to the plate!

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Grimy 8 points 2 months ago

This was removed?

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dohpaz42 5 points 2 months ago

This was posted (and reported) before the rule change, and I removed it due to it's non-"family friendly" nature. There were a couple of other posts that I removed for similar reasons. Now, if you would like to repost it with the appropriate NSFW tag, you're welcome to do so now that the rules officially support this content.

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Grimy 6 points 2 months ago

My main point is that family friendly is something you may want but not necessarily the community. The rule wasn't enforced before.

Tagging is essentially the same as removing and not a compromise in my book.

That being said, I get this is a transition period and you guys have better stuff to do. I also think too many Meta threads at once is a bit annoying. I'm hoping we can have a more thorough discussion with everyone's opinion in a dedicated thread at a later date, hopefully with examples so we can give a proper opinion.

Thanks for taking on the responsibility in any case!

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EnsignWashout 3 points 2 months ago

Tagging is essentially the same as removing and not a compromise in my book.

Come check out Mastodon sometime, where we also tag movie spoilers, politics, mentions of any medical condition, and eye contact.

There's nothing wrong with eye contact. It makes some people really uncomfortable. So we tag it so that they can filter it.

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Grimy 1 point 2 months ago

Imagine if eye contact and NSFW used the same tag, so if you wanted to see one, you also had to browse pictures of dicks.

I'm all for using custom tags in brackets in the post title like [spicy], but that's not the same as banishing it to the NSFW part of Lemmy.

I'll admit Lemmy is lagging behind in terms of built in tags. We need an adult tag to differentiate from straight up pornography.

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helpImTrappedOnline 4 points 2 months ago

Personally I think it should be tagged nsfw.

I like the metric I came up with the other day.

If you'd get arrested for showing it to a 16yr old, tag it. If you'd shoot your "creepy uncle" for showing it to your 16yr old kid, tag it.

It's not that I think a 16yr old isn't mature enough for this type of material, but it's a lot different if a much older person shares it with them. When in doubt - tag it.

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GreenKnight23 2 points 2 months ago

1000001415

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Harvey656 2 points 2 months ago

It looksnlike the bottom of that was cut off, where attribution would usually be. I never removed it, but I would say that could be the reason. And maybe no NSFW tag, thats.... spicy?

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Grimy 2 points 2 months ago

It was for NSFW. I don't think many of beeps unattributed posts got removed. It's hard to know since the modlog doesn't handle images very well and you can't actually see them from. This was the only comic for which I recognize the name, I can't say if the other removed comics for NSFW were actually NSFW.

My problem with this is that, yes it is spicy but it isn't NSFW.

The pg-13 rule was the one most brought up in the last thread. I feel like it's being sweeped under the rug.

Tagging it NSFW is the same as removing it and a fake compromise imo. I'm guessing almost all users surf this comm with NSFW off. I see NSFW as being strictly pornography and things of that nature, not a comic with a joke alluding to sex, and is more of an instance wide thing.

The rule before was unenforced. I think, seeing as this is the biggest comic community, a minimum would be a thread about it with examples of what would and wouldn't be allowed. Idk, maybe I'm asking for too much. It's mainly that we are talking about changes to what type of comic is allowed, which seems major.

I don't really want this place to turn into happy meal comics over time. Thanks for your response though.

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Harvey656 0 points 2 months ago

There's going to be plenty of growing pains. As of right now I will just enforce things that I think are egregious. Most of Beep's old posts will stay, there was just so many that we all just hit the 'resolved' button and moved on. There is no point to bully when everyone knows we will be nose down the microsecond they post anyway.

As far as the NSFW tag goes, I could lean either way but that comic toes the line for me pretty close.

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Grimy 1 point 2 months ago

It doesn't toe the line for instance wide rules, based on what gets posted in meme subs for example. And the instance wide rules was what this community has been going with for more than a while.

How you guys plan to deal with spicy comics is different than how it was dealt with before.

I'm happy there are new moderators. I don't get why we have to lose a whole category of content though. Feels worse knowing the guy that caused all this, and basically spent a month insulting everyone here is staying but the content is getting censored. What was the whole point? I could block him but there isn't a way to see the content you guys remove.

I guess we will see. The part about it not showing up in the modlog makes it tad bit more frustrating.

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JohnnyEnzyme 7 points 2 months ago

Nice work, DohPaz and folks! I guess it will be interesting to see if the various beeps clean up their act across the other comics /c's they post at...

Also, I confess a swell of jealousy about getting so many mod volunteers in past days. I haven't had a single volunteer at my comics place over the years, altho of course it's smaller (~1.1K users), and more niche than yours. Anyway, thanks for your efforts, here!

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deliriousdreams 7 points 2 months ago

Thank you for taking on the task. We (mostly) appreciate it.

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ActualGrapesTasteGreen 7 points 2 months ago

Do what you want with beep, I will continue blocking them. They had more than their fair share of chances to be a part of the community but they chose to be contrarian about it. Somebody with the power to hold them accountable finally reaches out and now they'll play by the rules? Beep you squandered all my good will, good luck somewhere else. I'm blocking all your alts too.

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JetpackJackson 6 points 2 months ago

Nice! Thank you!

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Harvey656 5 points 2 months ago

Glad to be here. Hope we can keep this place clean and on topic!

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Deceptichum 3 points 2 months ago

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breadsmasher -5 points 2 months ago

beep is allowed to stay

well fuck this community then. Didnt realise mods of a comic community would be ok with a user continuing to use ai slop comics, and strip author attribution.

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Micromot 9 points 2 months ago

Well they explicitly said they won't allow doing that...

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floquant 3 points 2 months ago

Why are you subbed to a comic community if you can't read?

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breadsmasher 2 points 2 months ago

why are you ok with an obvious troll remaining unbanned?

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floquant 4 points 2 months ago

As long as they stop and don't break the rules from now on I don't see why not. I believe they had their fun and learned their lesson. Of course on the first infraction they should be yeeted out

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Harvey656 2 points 2 months ago

I have a short conversation with beep about their last post. They did the same thing and cut off the attribution. I pointed out the rules and they chose to remove the post themselves.

So maybe they are learning, but I feel yah.

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Bloomcole -15 points 2 months ago

GREAT NEW MODS FIRST THING THEY DO IS REMOVE MY COMMENTS AND LEAVE AWFUL ZIONIST GENOCIDER COMMENTS ALONE.

THE HASBARA RATS HAVE INFILTRATED LEMMY

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Harvey656 10 points 2 months ago

Have you tried the report button? There were plenty of reports for you, none from you that I saw.

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Bloomcole -10 points 2 months ago

typical zionist rats use brigade reporting to censor what they don't like.
I leave it to the mods usually. But you apparently act on their reports no questions asked and see no reason to remove their comments.

IDK what's happening lately.

"Allah can choke on a dick just like your mother did."
Now there's one comment from a hasbarat to someone else I reported earlier.
Nothing happened, msg the mods to ask WTF they were doing, still they leave it up.

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18107 12 points 2 months ago

I'm always happy to listen to feedback, and change my behaviour when I'm wrong.

I will not be removing comments just because they have been reported, or just because I disagree with them. I will only be removing comments that explicitly break the rules as listed on the sidebar. You are welcome to report any comment you believe should be removed. There is no penalty for incorrectly reporting something if it is done in good faith (i.e. don't report everything just because I said no penalty).

While not explicitly against rule 1 (Be nice), I believe "zionist rats" could have been phrased as "zionists" or "zionist people" while still making the same point.

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Bloomcole -4 points 2 months ago

"you talk like a fascist" and "you seem like a psycho" is following rule 1 (Be nice)? LOL

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Harvey656 10 points 2 months ago

EDIT: Oof Lemmy mod tools are poopy, I will find the proper comment in a moment

EDIT 2: Just use the report tool, and stop calling people fascists when they don't agree with you.

Next time, use the report button. This behavior WILL get you banned. I'll look into your history to see if I can find this person, but if you don't start treating people like humans, I will always consider the comment a break of Rule 1.

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Bloomcole -4 points 2 months ago

you've cherrypicked that (justified) one while ALL my comments got removed.
Here is the post

And now the removal of said comments is no longer visible in my modlog!
WTF is happening here?

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Bloomcole -7 points 2 months ago

zionists and genociders are de facto fascists.

I can't call them that, yet when they use a simple semantic trick and say "You are talking like a fascist" to me or "you start to seem like a psycho" that's OK?

BTW your last remark "if you don’t start treating people like humans" sounds suspiciously like that same, guy who seems like a real hasbara cunt (see what I did there?) who writes "Talk about humans as if they’re humans"

So is that your alt account or what?

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Goferking0 5 points 2 months ago

They're going through old posts even to randomly remove comments

https://lemmy.world/modlog/31408

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Harvey656 3 points 2 months ago

Personally only removed comments that vehemently broke the rules, the most obvious rule broken was rule 1. We got through the mod log and likely wont be removing any old posts or comments at this point.

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Goferking0 3 points 2 months ago

2 of the comments removed were for calling out someone being pro Palestinian genocide and explaining why it was bad what was happening in Gaza. Were those ones you removed cause not good look for who every removed them and not the cause

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Harvey656 3 points 2 months ago

In the modlog you sent, of the 4 shown that I removed: one had uncensored gore of animals without NSFW tag (A documentary, but nonetheless that needs to be tagged.), one person losing their mind over beep, another telling beep to harm themselves, and another that was charged and another that was mean spirited, and I don't understand the word, so I played on the safe side.

Edit: The modlog kept going, with more of my stuff in there, but most of these speak for themselves I think.

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dohpaz42 1 point 2 months ago

You are correct. When I was given mod, there were over 600 reports that needed to be addressed. At the time I removed that post, the rules were not yet changed to allow NSFW content. So I removed it based on the original rules. If you would like to repost it now, you're more than welcome to do so.

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Goferking0 1 point 2 months ago

Did you reply to the wrong comment cause I didn't say anything about reposts just comment removals

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dohpaz42 2 points 2 months ago

When I first opened your link, it looked like modlog (lemmy-ui) was highlighting a post I removed; which is what I was commenting on. When I tried to go back again a second (and third time), it didn’t. It was confusing, and I had to go to bed for work. 😅

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Deceptichum -1 points 2 months ago

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Bloomcole -4 points 2 months ago

IDK how they did it but they have removed the messages that my comments were removed from the modlog!
WTF is going on?

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Goferking0 5 points 2 months ago

Depending on the removal method they can keep it from being on the modlog. It's terrible

Edit in between posting the mod log and mod saying everything was above board at least 1 more comment being removed got scrubbed so 🤷

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Deceptichum 2 points 2 months ago

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comicstrips

@lemmy.world

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Comic Strips is a community for those who love comic stories.

Rules

*� Be Nice!
- Treat others with respect and dignity. Friendly banter is okay, as long as it is mutual; keyword: friendly.
*�️ Community Standards
- Comics should be a full story, from start to finish, in one post.
- Posts should be safe and enjoyable by the majority of community members, both here on lemmy.world and other instances.
- Any comic that would qualify as raunchy, lewd, or otherwise draw unwanted attention by nosy coworkers, spouses, or family members should be tagged as NSFW.
- Moderators have final say on what and what does not qualify as appropriate. Use common sense, and if need be, err on the side of caution.
*� Keep it Real
- Comics should be made and posted by real human beans, not by automated means like bots or AI. This is not the community for that sort of thing.
*�️ Credit Where Credit is Due
- Comics should include the original attribution to the artist(s) involved, and be unmodified. Bonus points if you include a link back to their website. When in doubt, use a reverse image search to try to find the original version. Repeat offenders will have their posts removed, be temporarily banned from posting, or if all else fails, be permanently banned from posting.
- Attributions include, but are not limited to, watermarks, links, or other text or imagery that artists add to their comics to use for identification purposes. If you find a comic without any such markings, it would be a good idea to see if you can find an original version. If one cannot be found, say so and ask the community for help!
*� Post Formatting
- Post an image, gallery, or link to a specific comic hosted on another site; e.g., the author's website.
- Meta posts about the community should be tagged with [Meta] either at the beginning or the end of the post title.
- When linking to a comic hosted on another site, ensure the link is to the comic itself and not just to the website; e.g.,
  ✅ Correct: https://xkcd.com/386/
  ❌ Incorrect: https://xkcd.com/
*� Post Frequency/SPAM
- Each user (regardless of instance) may post up to five (5 🖐) comics a day. This can be any combination of personal comics you have written yourself, or other author's comics. Any comics exceeding five (5 🖐) will be removed.
*�‍☠️ Internationalization (i18n)
- Non-English posts are welcome. Please tag the post title with the original language, and include an English translation in the body of the post; e.g.,
  Sí, por favor [Spanish/Español]
*� Moderation
- We are human, just like most everybody else on Lemmy. If you feel a moderation decision was made in error, you are welcome to reach out to anybody on the moderation team for clarification. Keep in mind that moderation decisions may be final.
- When reporting posts and/or comments, quote which rule is being broken, and why you feel it broke the rules.

Banned Artists

The following artists are banned from the community.

Jago
Stonetoss
GPrime85

It should be noted that when you make reports, it is your responsibility to provide rational reasoning why something should be removed. Saying it simply breaks community rules is not always good enough.

Web Accessibility

Note: This is not a rule, but a helpful suggestion.

When posting images, you should strive to add alt-text for screen readers to use to describe the image you're posting:

Markdown - Links / Images

Another helpful thing to do is to provide a transcription of the text in your images, as well as brief descriptions of what's going on. (example)

Web of Links

!linuxmemes@lemmy.world: "I use Arch btw"
!memes@lemmy.world: memes (you don't say!)

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comicstrips

@lemmy.world

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Comic Strips is a community for those who love comic stories.

Rules

*� Be Nice!
- Treat others with respect and dignity. Friendly banter is okay, as long as it is mutual; keyword: friendly.
*�️ Community Standards
- Comics should be a full story, from start to finish, in one post.
- Posts should be safe and enjoyable by the majority of community members, both here on lemmy.world and other instances.
- Any comic that would qualify as raunchy, lewd, or otherwise draw unwanted attention by nosy coworkers, spouses, or family members should be tagged as NSFW.
- Moderators have final say on what and what does not qualify as appropriate. Use common sense, and if need be, err on the side of caution.
*� Keep it Real
- Comics should be made and posted by real human beans, not by automated means like bots or AI. This is not the community for that sort of thing.
*�️ Credit Where Credit is Due
- Comics should include the original attribution to the artist(s) involved, and be unmodified. Bonus points if you include a link back to their website. When in doubt, use a reverse image search to try to find the original version. Repeat offenders will have their posts removed, be temporarily banned from posting, or if all else fails, be permanently banned from posting.
- Attributions include, but are not limited to, watermarks, links, or other text or imagery that artists add to their comics to use for identification purposes. If you find a comic without any such markings, it would be a good idea to see if you can find an original version. If one cannot be found, say so and ask the community for help!
*� Post Formatting
- Post an image, gallery, or link to a specific comic hosted on another site; e.g., the author's website.
- Meta posts about the community should be tagged with [Meta] either at the beginning or the end of the post title.
- When linking to a comic hosted on another site, ensure the link is to the comic itself and not just to the website; e.g.,
  ✅ Correct: https://xkcd.com/386/
  ❌ Incorrect: https://xkcd.com/
*� Post Frequency/SPAM
- Each user (regardless of instance) may post up to five (5 🖐) comics a day. This can be any combination of personal comics you have written yourself, or other author's comics. Any comics exceeding five (5 🖐) will be removed.
*�‍☠️ Internationalization (i18n)
- Non-English posts are welcome. Please tag the post title with the original language, and include an English translation in the body of the post; e.g.,
  Sí, por favor [Spanish/Español]
*� Moderation
- We are human, just like most everybody else on Lemmy. If you feel a moderation decision was made in error, you are welcome to reach out to anybody on the moderation team for clarification. Keep in mind that moderation decisions may be final.
- When reporting posts and/or comments, quote which rule is being broken, and why you feel it broke the rules.

Banned Artists

The following artists are banned from the community.

Jago
Stonetoss
GPrime85

It should be noted that when you make reports, it is your responsibility to provide rational reasoning why something should be removed. Saying it simply breaks community rules is not always good enough.

Web Accessibility

Note: This is not a rule, but a helpful suggestion.

When posting images, you should strive to add alt-text for screen readers to use to describe the image you're posting:

Markdown - Links / Images

Another helpful thing to do is to provide a transcription of the text in your images, as well as brief descriptions of what's going on. (example)

Web of Links

!linuxmemes@lemmy.world: "I use Arch btw"
!memes@lemmy.world: memes (you don't say!)

go to feed...