me_irl

2 months ago by sanitation to c/me_irl

GardenGeek 60 points 2 months ago

Hot take:

Humans in general are better than their reputation.

Take two:

,,Humans bad" is propaganda by the ruling class to justify authority and rulership.

path: 0 24195442, hotness: undefined, score: 60, children: 10

SamuraiBeandog 21 points 2 months ago

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Most people have a perception bias for "bad" people, but it's justified because the potential outcomes of being a victim of a bad person are astronomical. So it doesn't matter if the vast majority of people are "good", because a single encounter with a bad person can be catastrophic, so it makes logical sense to be wary if you know there are any amount of bad people around.

Now of course this instinct gets manipulated by the media and politicians and all that, but the initial instinct is perfectly reasonable, imo.

path: 0 24195442 24196266, hotness: undefined, score: 21, children: 3

GardenGeek 3 points 2 months ago

I'd say it's not reasonable.

Yes, there's the perception bias that makes absolute evolutionary sense when you deal with the 'lion or stone' problem.

However we as species dominate the planet because we cooperate. Religions, national states etc. are all imaginary sets of rules to ensure even more efficient cooperation in large groups. And here's the problem: If you meet a new person with distrust he/she becomes more likely to actually act according to your expectation. Given that premise is true an individual distrusting each an everyone weakens its evolutionary fitness as it misses out many cooperation opportunities.

Another point: If we want to counter the assholes plan of monoplizing this worlds ressources in their few hands we urgently need to learn cooperation outside of state controles rule sets again... this sentiment is one of the core problems why the US is just taking Trumps shit and its population is far away from taking action: They're devided and told to not trust anyone anymore. On this basis no revolution can be build.

path: 0 24195442 24196266 24202265, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 2

SamuraiBeandog 2 points 2 months ago

These are valid points. Cooperative groups outcompete non-cooperative groups and humans have evolved around that. But that aspect of human nature evolved in a radically different context to the modern world. Cooperation evolved when humans lived in small groups at the scale where everyone knew each other and "bad" actions were always known about by everyone in the group and usually punished/discouraged in some way. People outside that group were always viewed with suspicion and wariness. The human brain is hardwired to identify and categorise everyone into "us" or "them" groups.

When human groups grew to the size where it was normal to interact with strangers then that radically changed the way that human cooperation had to work, the rules are very different than the ones we originally evolved with. As you said, organised religion and governance specifically grew out of the need to manage this. In a large society with ubiquitous anonymity, it is much more feasible to be non-cooperative and still be successful in an evolutionary sense (i.e. have plenty of surviving offspring). Modern human societies, with specialisation of labour and market economies, enable this and I think can be argued even encourage "bad"/non-cooperative behaviour in many ways.

we urgently need to learn cooperation outside of state controles rule

I completely agree. But it's difficult, because forming trust with a bunch of strangers goes against human nature. You need to find a way to get people's brains to identify those strangers as an "us" instead of a "them".

path: 0 24195442 24196266 24202265 24213500, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 1

GardenGeek 2 points 2 months ago

Thank you for this well elaborated remark.

I think you're compeltely right and have nothing to add. The link between ideologies creating large collectives and deliberate out groupes at the same time wasn't that clear to me.

In the current situation the socialist ideology of Marx seems fitting (ultrarich as out group against decent people) if it can gather enough cohesion which is highly unlikely I guess ... especially since the political left has a high tendency to fragment into various groups before reaching relevant success in its proclaimed class warfare.

path: 0 24195442 24196266 24202265 24213500 24253659, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks 4 points 2 months ago

I dunno, did you see how people acted during COVID? I didn't need propaganda to convince me the people around me were assholes. Not really looking to get into it, just: misanthropy isn't as difficult as we'd all like it to be.

path: 0 24195442 24197967, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 3

GardenGeek 3 points 2 months ago

As often in life the picture isn't black and white. The way I see it: Most people (~ 80 % or more) are decent. However we have egoists, narcissists and opportunists in our society. Unfortunately our current economic and societal system cultivate this sentiment and destill the most reckless undividuals into the highest roles (corrupt politicans, billionaires) where they assume everyone's jusg like them (who likes to see himself as outlier?) and hence make rules as if we were all assholes. With the benefit that it justifies their shitty behaviour... becaus ,,everyone else would do the same in my position". Well I say most people won't.

Durint COVID 10 - 20 % assholes where completly sufficient to empty stores out of greed (there never was an actual supply shortage after all). I once saw a woman in an expensive SUV carry a whole trunk of toilet paper to her house... which of course is anecdotal but fits my narrative.

On the other hand I saw many more people taking care of each other when going into isolation for example... in crysis the majortiy deepens its cooperation since it always more efficient than wasting ressouces in competition imho.

path: 0 24195442 24197967 24202195, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 2

zero_spelled_with_an_ecks 1 point 2 months ago

That there are decent people doesn't change that a few that aren't can asymmetrically harm others. With disease, intention doesn't even have to enter the equation. COVID wasn't just hoarding, but causing death. Millions of people. I'm not talking about toilet paper.

With guns and mass shootings a thousand people being good doesn't stop the shooter. Even in smaller environments completely separated from systemic forces, bad behavior exists. I've known too many people that have been abused or assaulted. You probably do, too, even if you aren't aware.

That bad behavior is used as an excuse to exercise power is one thing, but to minimize it to the point of ignoring it is a position that lacks nuance. Anyway, won't be responding further. We won't convince each other, especially not with the kind of arguments you've presented.

path: 0 24195442 24197967 24202195 24202581, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1

GardenGeek 1 point 2 months ago

I agree on that... especially as what you wrote seems only remotely connected to the argument you intend to answer to. Have a nice day, nonetheless!

path: 0 24195442 24197967 24202195 24202581 24203465, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0

will_you_be_my_AI 4 points 2 months ago

We all take risk... calculated risk. In life even in the "modern world" we have to take risk. In the imperial core the risk is high and the global variable is waste fraud and abuse. We are reactionary. We like preemptive strikes. We don't trust anyone. That is how we survive. With a smile on our faces we sell our lies. I would never trust a yankkkeee and I am a yankkkeee. The crime is relative to the have and have nots. The top steals so does the bottom. We take what we want and to hell with the rest. We are scoundrels pointing fingers at scoundrels. It is truly a sorry sight. The international security elite knowingly or unknowingly participate in divide and rule strategy for the capitalist class all around the world. The united states is not a safe place. All this ambition leads to no where. In the words of US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo: "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole. We had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment."

path: 0 24195442 24195858, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1

GardenGeek 2 points 2 months ago

I think this is indeed a feature of the modern US system... and also the reason it will be succeeded by other societies not or less impended in their cooperation.

Cooperation beats competition in the long run any time.

path: 0 24195442 24195858 24202292, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

Bubbaonthebeach 14 points 2 months ago

Yep there is always a day in a vacation where you ask yourself, what did I just do? Once it was going to stay with a new friend at the family's small hotel. Sounded great. I would help out with the lunch shift and they would let me stay for free. Woke up the middle of the first night when it sounded like WW3 had started. Apparently the parents liked to get drunk and fight. She didn't mention that part. Then there was the time we were on a island country and the non-regulated taxi was taking us to an authentic cuisine restaurant. He had driven us around the previous day and seemed ok. This night he needed to refill the car with gas. He drove into what looked like closed gas station and when he started to fill up a group of young men materialized. But they just joked with him and we went on our way - was his younger brother and friends. So a few scary moments but they didn't turn out to be anything. They did however make us think twice about trying our luck. Still seem to end up in those types of situations though. I'm guess I'm a relatively trusting soul.

path: 0 24196957, hotness: undefined, score: 14, children: 2

Varpeggio 4 points 2 months ago

For me, it was hiking to a waterfall in Costa Rica with no food and only one bottle of water. THANK FUCK it rained; we would have been in trouble if I couldn’t have had sips of water from the leaves to stay hydrated, and if the temperature had stayed as high as it was.

path: 0 24196957 24197123, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1

teslekova 2 points 2 months ago

Similar problem for me in Kakadu in 48 degree heat. Went for a little 1 kilometre walk with a bottle of Coke Zero, no water. Almost passed out from heatstroke 50 metres from the van when coming back. There was nobody else around, I would have been fucked.

path: 0 24196957 24197123 24209082, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

teyrnon 10 points 2 months ago

You do realize that kidnapping foreigners for ransom is big in a lot of countries?

Don't try that shit in latin america, or the middle east.

path: 0 24205440, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 1

modus 5 points 2 months ago

Don't tell me about a great money-making opportunity and then tell me where I can't do business. I'll operate where I want.

path: 0 24205440 24207216, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0

Sv443 8 points 2 months ago

...to the beach that makes you old?

path: 0 24203129, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 1

Dozzi92 2 points 2 months ago

Love me some M. Night.

path: 0 24203129 24209263, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

AllNewTypeFace 6 points 2 months ago

Do you want to wake up minus a kidney? Because that’s how you wake up minus a kidney.

path: 0 24195165, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 1

will_you_be_my_AI 2 points 2 months ago

yeah in israel the cancer of the global working class

path: 0 24195165 24195641, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

threadcounter 6 points 2 months ago

I assume OP is from the US?

path: 0 24194375, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 10

proudblond 7 points 2 months ago

Dude I’m a woman from the US and there is no fucking way I’d do this. And I grew up and am still pretty sheltered. Some people have no sense of self preservation.

path: 0 24194375 24194803, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 8

Catoblepas 10 points 2 months ago

I assumed it was a humorous way of talking about a normal vacation activity, getting on a boat with a tour guide and being out of cell phone range.

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24194990, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 4

will_you_be_my_AI 3 points 2 months ago

hahah cell phone range. 911 please help... ok where are you. ok we will be there in a hour.

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24194990 24195709, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0

proudblond 3 points 2 months ago

Oh I see how you’re reading that. I guess I read a different connotation into “off the grid.”

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24194990 24195071, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 1

saltesc 5 points 2 months ago

I've done this many times on random fishing boats to get out to islands around Indo-Pacific. People are always extremely friendly, helpful, and usually feed you plenty because trips often take a few hours.

Day 2 in the US I got held up in broad daylight and haven't been back. There's an aura of public anxiety there, like no one can be trusted and no one trusts you. You just don't get that many other places in the world.

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24194990 24195071 24195567, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0

Canconda 2 points 2 months ago

Was in Costa Rica, went on a boat tour, bro asked if we wanted to dip over to Cuba. He made it sound like an every day upsell.

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24194990 24195037, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

will_you_be_my_AI 1 point 2 months ago

Just a question do you like watching NCIS?

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24195698, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1

proudblond 1 point 2 months ago

Random. No, why?

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24195698 24196207, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0

PP_BOY_ -3 points 2 months ago

Im a dude from the US and there is no way I'd do this. OOP is actually just regarded and thinks this is a universal experience

path: 0 24194375 24194803 24194880, hotness: undefined, score: -3, children: 0

will_you_be_my_AI 0 points 2 months ago

as a yankkkeee I can confirm the states is trama factory of waste, fraud and abuse.

path: 0 24194375 24195652, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0

mech 2 points 2 months ago

There's been cases of diving operators who forgot tourists in the water when they drove the boat back, so...

path: 0 24203531, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

@lemmy.world

login for more options

All posts need to have the same title: me_irl it is allowed to use an emoji instead of the underscore _

go to feed...

@lemmy.world

login for more options

All posts need to have the same title: me_irl it is allowed to use an emoji instead of the underscore _

go to feed...