It took my mom decades to see the truth about what happened to her as a little girl. She didn't tell my grandmother until a couple years ago. Heartbreaking.
It's one of the many reasons that blaming victims should be called out each and every time. It's imperative to be honest about these crimes and to believe victims when they come forward.
It's imperative to be honest about these crimes and to believe victims when they come forward.
That is also not without its problems.
The Duke case resulted from a journalist who thought doing an investigation would be the same as disbelieving a victim, and editors who agreed. Now rape-apologists have a bloody shirt to wave around.
I'm for provisionally believing people, but also not rushing to judgement in each and every case. We can do both.
The rate of false claims is much, much lower than actual rape and sexual assault. It’s not non-existent, but we shouldn’t immediately assume a rape victim is lying.
More often than not, the default is to dismiss and downplay claims.
For the one case at Duke, I can pull dozens (probably hundreds) of real rape cases at universities.
The official FBI stats indicate that less than 5% of claims investigated turn out to be false. That's counting hoaxes, false alarms, and malicious reporting. I want to say they investigate around 388,000 reports annually on average so the combined number of events that don't turn out to be true is less than 20k and the number of purposely false claims is going to be a lot less than that.
My problem with lowering the legal standard from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "believe victims", isn't that there are a lot of false reports.
Right now no one believes or prosecutes real reports because of rape culture, why would anyone bother with a fake report? However, if we decide all someone has to do is say "this person raped me" and that's enough to put someone in jail then assholes are going to start filling false reports to hurt people they don't like.
I believe that men and women are all people and that many people are assholes. So I think the same women who, as men, would commit violent crimes now have a shockingly easy way to hurt people. And even if you believe that women are better people than men and they would rarely do it no matter how easy it is, men can do it to.
All it would take is to meet up with someone, escape to a private space ideally with witnesses and now I can claim they raped me. I think that makes it dangerously easy for assholes of any genders to really hurt someone through the legal system.
I'd like to see what a functional legal system that cares more about protecting victims than it does about protecting "promising young men" looks like. One where we exterminate the rape culture that saturates our legal system. If we actually prosecuted and punished rape cases that currently ALREADY MEET the threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt" that would by itself fix a huge part of the problem.
Also, until we fix our general rape culture you would just have tons of jury nullification, tons of judges and prosecutors throwing cases because the "threshold is too low". People talk about jury nullification as if was a good thing, but 90% of the time it was used was for protecting white racists in Jim Crowe and protecting usually drunk drivers in vehicular homicide cases. It will be used here if people think the threshold of "believe victims" is too low.
"Believe women" for me works when interacting with the victim. Why people have to start picking apart a traumatic story when they hear it is insane to me. It's crazy that we need rhetoric to tell people "if someone trusts you with a traumatic story, don't be a dick about it".
Agreed!
But we shouldn't automatically believe as well. We need to doubt, not believe anyone who claims to be a victim.
The rate of false claims is much, much lower than actual rape and sexual assault.
And this is minimum debatable for me, at least.
There are good evidence and arguments that point to the direction that there are not so few false claims.
Edit: I said opposite before, that was imprecise. I don't agree with the opposite either (that there are less actual rapes and sexual assaults than false claims). Sorry for that one.
I never really understood believe victims to mean punish the accused with no evidence beyond testimony, more that we don't need to loudly declare that victims are probably actually liars and offer support to people who clearly need it
Compassionately suspending judgment is not something we do well as a society. Battle lines are quickly drawn, sides chosen, and war begins before the jury is even seated.
The law favors rapists. I realized a long time ago, just by women that I have known, that the statistics on rape are accurate and also low. I also realized that most men don’t understand that because they are not men who a woman would open up to about that. As for men who are worried about catching false charges, I would say that statistically you are more likely to get raped by another man than catch a fake charge. And because everything favors the rapist, he will probably get away with it.
As a man, I can confirm this. It took me being raped (and a few years of bottling it up to even consciously come to the realisation that I was indeed raped) to do away with nearly two decades of indirect conditioning by "lad culture" and mass media et al to see why it goes unreported most of the time.
(mind you I was raped by a woman, AND the same woman falsely accused me of rape, harassment, and a number of other awful things)
You are not alone in this brother. I was laughed out of my local police department when I attempted to file a report. I went back later when a woman officer was present and she took me seriously. Of course the court system was another story.
There are so many of us, Velma. I feel like the number of unreported rapes of men is far higher than that of women. You, as a woman, have a much higher chance of being believed than I do as a man. Which is a fucked up statistic to quote. "Being believed". But it remains true.
Edit: meaning theres probably way more rapes of women but proportionally, the report rate is probably way lower for men. Because we feel like no one will believe us.
Part of dismantling our rape culture is elevating men’s voices and stories as well. I want my son to know he’ll be supported and believed if anything happens to him. I want victims to have the support they need regardless of gender, age, and status.
It’s so fucked up the amount of prison rape jokes aimed at men, jokes about young boys getting lucky to have a woman teacher rape them, all of it. It harms boys and men as well as girls and women and everyone in between when we treat victims as if they asked to be raped or didn’t do enough to prevent it.
I’m in your corner. You have my unwavering support 💕
Yup, my watershed moment was when I found out my rapist had died. He was an older man who I had always brushed off as a bad teenage experiment. I didn’t even realize how much fear and anger I had for him, until I heard through the grapevine that he had died. Suddenly, I was staring at my Facebook feed, seeing some mutuals posting about his death, and had tears welling up in my eyes. Not tears of sadness, but of shame and anger.
It was simultaneously emancipating and also enraging. I suddenly knew he wouldn’t be able to hurt anyone else, and he wouldn’t be able to hurt me again… Until then, I hadn’t even realized I was worried about that. I had been carrying an immense amount of shame as a result of the “he has probably done this to others, and will probably do it again in the future” train of thought. Everyone says victims should report so their rapists can’t hurt others, right? And since he was an openly gay older guy, I statistically would have had a higher chance of being believed, right? But reporting would require telling others about what had happened, and I couldn’t even imagine doing that.
But I also knew that since he was dead, he would never see justice for what he did to me (and likely others before and after). He was very wealthy, very well-connected in my local area, and he died comfortably in his own bed. None of which he deserved. Knowing he would be feted his wake was absolutely enraging, because he only deserved a cardboard box underneath the local prison.
It was also what eventually led to me realizing why I had historically been so homophobic. I was born and raised in a conservative area, so homophobia is just par for the course here. But I eventually realized that I had been projecting my fear and anger of him whenever I saw a gay couple in public. And that what he did to me wasn’t their fault. I had also been externalizing a lot of my own shame. Nowadays I’m a staunch ally, but it would have been extremely easy for me to simply dig my heels in and refuse to do any soul-searching. I was definitely the older lady in this comic for longer than I would like to admit. And I have an immense amount of respect for the victims who do come forward, because I know what kind of determination that would take.
When I was about 5 my then 3 year old sister was sexually abused by our adoptive mother's husband at the time. I don't really have a good memory, but I understand that I was drugged and maybe also messed with too. They took my sis to the hospital and confirmed the abuse took place.
The dude got a slap on the wrist, honestly. A few years jail (I think?) and a divorce - leaving behind a single mother on a teacher's salary with 2 kids that he doesn't even owe child support for. They both made the decision to adopt and he just got right out of any responsibility for that.
For us as kids, it meant lots of talking to professionals who barely got anything out of us. I mean, we were afraid. All we had was each other in the whole world and it seemed like we couldn't even trust our own parents, so what do we do? Instead we grew up with little faith in family and no faith in a "God" who turned their back or a country who didn't give a damn.
You did nothing wrong. You're not alone. You don't have to suffer in silence. Tell your story. You never know who might really need to hear it.
My Step father started grooming my sister when she was ten. Her chore thay day was to clean the kitchen. He told her to use a bucket and rag, not the mop, so he could "watch her ass" while she cleaned. His ten year old, biological, daughter.
He told her if she ever told anyone, it would break up the whole family, and everyone would think she was a whore.
My sister lived a double life from that early age of ten, until she was 15. He would tell her, "you have to [Do this sexual thing] or Im not buying groceries for the family and it will be your fault. He did this for christmas presents, after school activities, any time he could withold finacially from "the family" he would make her do stuff.
No one knew.
meanwhile, he was serverely beating the shit outta all of us if any of us got out of line. My brother and I werent allowed to hang out with friends, ever. We went to school, and we went home. If we werent working on the farm, we were trapped on our rooms. In the last few years, I wouldnt even be allowed out of my room for weeks at a time, not even to use the bathroom. He'd take the house phone with him whenever he left, so we could never call anyone. My brother stood up to him once, and he chocked out my 12 year old brother against a wall, his feet dangled. I saw it happen.
We found out after, he was often choking out my sister in her sleep, and shed wake to him trying to kill her. Shed wake, and hed stop, and just mutter, "Sorry" and walk away. When my dear sister found out I was cutting.. she did the right thing, and told the adult. He came to me and said, "next time you feel like doing this, make sure you do it the right way".
I had asked my sister a few times, if "anything was going on". She always said no. Until one fall day, she broke the fuck down and told me everything. We cried together for hours. I was 16, she 15. I told the school the next day. Thankfully he admitted everything. When the state came in, im sure they found mt poop bucket. They saw his room was a bed, in a pile of beer cans. They saw the falling down house. We were never allowed back there to get our things. "The family" let my dog run away and didnt tell me for a month. We did lose everything, our pets and possesions alike.
In court he said he thought she was his wife, and also mentioned he had been raped as a youth by an uncle.
When sentencing came, the max was 25 years. They asked us kids for our imput. His sister, my aunt, took us in after he was arrested. She was the one to relay our answer. We all said the maximum. She told the contact, we all said the minimum. He was sentenced for ten years. He served 8. For a very long time, over a decade after, I regretting not, well killing him that morning before school. This aunt also made fun of me for telling on my step father. The woman despised me for "what I did".
This man absolutely ruined three lives. He didnt murder us no, but he murdered our hearts, our courage, our self worth. None of us are right. My brother and sister are still very fucked up people and its been about 25 years since thay day.
8 years, let out for "good behavior". Owns a house again now, none of his kids own anything. We all have CPTSD. I will be im therapy for the rest of my life probably. My siblings and I dont talk anymore. the other two refuse therapy, and their maladaptive coping is.. apparent. My sister cant even live in this state. She fears so much, she will run into him. My brother, still talks to that side of the family, and has stalked women he was interested in, like, actully stalked. Its so messed up.
This man took my sister from me, and only got 8 years. Least he got that- I know too many who got off scott free. I have multiple non reported rapes myself. Mostly from the same person. My grandfather raped all his three daughters, died without it ever coming to light.
I would avoid saying that the law favours rapists in general (though it might where you live) because it makes it sound as if it's a problem that can be fixed if we bring in the right legislation. The problem as I see it is that the people who administer the law favour rapists, and that's a much more intractable problem.
Fair, although “the law” usually encompasses the written law, the cops, prosecutors, judges, etc. Fixing the problem will involve adjusting laws, fixing the cop problem, and adjusting the public zeitgeist. Legislation will help. Making an assumption for protection of the victim will go a long ways and doesn’t take away from innocent until proven guilty.
The law favours doing nothing, by intent, by design, and by necessity. It is better to let the guilty go free than to imprison the innocent. But there is also systemic bias that warps this important principle into something that hobbles any hope of justice.
I think that we are wrong to look to the state and the law. They occupy a place in our psychology as the arbiter of order that they do not deserve and which serves to control us. When we are raped, the solution to our personal problems isn't to make sure someone else gets punished. Our needs are for repair, safety, and healing, not some asshole's rehabilitation, which is not our fucking responsibility. The courts and prisons cannot give us what we need in that situation. There is a need for something that doesn't exist, that doesn't yet even have a name.
As for men who are worried about catching false charges
I absolutely fucking hate that argument, because men use it to prevent changes that would make prosecution of actual rapists easier. I understand the fear, but how often does it happen, that false charges get pressed onto man and how often does it happen that rapists do not get prosecuted for their crime? We all know someone who has been targeted by rape/sexual assault, but hardly anyone knows a rapist and even less a person that has been falsely accused of it.
You seem to forget that small little detail of "innocent until proven guilty" which is thisbtiny corner stone of our society and probably the reason why you too are a free person
THAT detail is ehy rape is so hard to convict people on because ypy need yo prove that a sexual interaction was not consensual and thus rape
In few cases that is obvious and easy to prove, in most its impossible to prove, and thus the perpetrator goes free.
Now I get it, it sucks that the bad guy gets away with it, but the other option is that we start jailing innocent people. The entire idea of the justice system is not to put the guilty in jail but to keep the innocent out of jail. I am not about to give up on that.
Could be phrased better. I don't know why you're "correcting" them. It's a lot of assumptions when you could assume they agree with you on this. It doesn't really conflict.
We believe in innocent until proven guilty. That favors rapists.
The "innocent until proven guilty" threshold favours rapists in rape scenarios that look like consensual sex. It works pretty well for violent rapes, any rape that includes drugs, coerced inebriation, or assault on an unconscious person, any rape with corroborating witnesses at any key step, and any rape where there is a clear proof of refusal.
The problem is that this is only a fraction of rapes because many rapists avoid physical violence preferring "the implication" of violence instead. They also prey on victims who have low self esteem or a weak sense of what's okay because they grew up in rape culture. These scenarios are very hard to meet the threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt" because other than the victim testimony, which is often unclear and confused, there isn't other proof. And if you start with a victim with low experience and low self esteem and you isolate them get them drunk and rape them the victims testimony is guaranteed to be unclear and confused. That's why this scenario is so common in the first place.
But the most important aspect by far, and one we can actually point to easily with proof, is that the police, prosecutors, and judges are often extremely pro-rape culture delegitimizing victims and coddling rapists. The number of cases that ended with a slap on the wrists because "we don't want to ruin this promising young man's life over 5 minutes of [inserts your favorite delegitimizing euphemism here]" is just staggering". This is why the system favours rapists in a way changing laws or standards won't solve.
If we don't want to live in a country of old rapists and pedophiles, we're going to have to become more comfortable running the lives of young rapists and pedophiles.
The sheer amount of violence that women and children are expected to absorb as normal in order to maintain the illusion of a civilized society is honestly staggering to look at.
Yeah, and this is NOT a "blame the victim thing" but women and children get to have pressure to just accept "their place" as the "lesser" but there are probably a fair number of dudes who get a similar pressure to "accept their place" as the better.
For the benefit of a lot of asshole dudes being able to feel good about being assholes.
It's part of why that block of assholes is really pushing back lately against progressive ideals. Because it's a threat to the idea that "if you are a dude, you can just do it, it's your place." Especially as more and more men pull back and realize "I don't have to be an asshole, I can respect others."
It makes the assholes way way more obvious.
Men benefit from it. They benefit both from raping people with impunity and from being one of the good ones who doesn't.
yup. meet my aunt. many years of pick me isms and trying to shame me for speaking out for the metoo movement.
she was kidnapped as a young woman in a foreign country. she says she survived the ordeal and was never afraid during the whole episode but since i have known her she was absolutely cruel , shaming any victim of rape, hoisting her opinions up on being a survivor looking down on everyone else
slowly... she found she couldnt stand to be alone anywhere. not even without a big dog.
then it got worse
fast forward decades later now she is in shambles struggling with that past trauma that manifested as severely crippling anxiety as she grows older and cant even be around more than a few people without having a massive emotional breakdown. the last one she ended up hospitalized. now isolated herself on an island, claiming shes just wanting 'alone time' and cant stand people.
doesnt hesitate to middle finger at any women who speak up about rape.
behold: the true 'survivor'.
Sadly, things like this happen to victims of all kinds of abuse. When I was a kid, my father would sometimes tell me about things that his father did to him. Eventually I recognized that he had suffered horrible physical and verbal abuse. His father, in turn, had lived a life filled with trauma. Instead of dealing with it, he unloaded all his trauma onto his kids who then unloaded their inherited trauma onto their kids, including me.
When I began to recognize this dynamic, It was like I could see the little boy, within my dad, who just wanted to be loved but instead was systematically destroyed; through no fault of his own. His capacity for joy and love were greatly compressed, and the void filled with fear and anger. I saw that I was just like him and I was horrified at that discovery.
Sometimes people try to run away from the pain and fear. I think that's why they try to pretend they're above it. Because it feels easier to malign people who share your experience, in order to try and pretend it wasn't real, than it is to face the pain and fear.
But until you face it, you will never escape it. It will always be there wreaking havoc on your life and lives of those around you.
this comment made me think a good bit
i'm so happy i'm breaking untold generational cycles of familial trauma and abuse by not having kids and ending my bloodline with myself
for everyone reading out there, there's never anything wrong with cutting off shitty family if they deserve it. don't let anyone guilt you into believing otherwise
"i went through it and turned out fine. If you went through it and became traumatized, it means you were weak. And I'm not weak, so I wasn't traumatized"
Tale as old as time.
I think a lot of mental illnesses are inherited this way. I would love to see some reseach on this. Most research that I could find focuses on mental illnesses being inherited through the genome.
I watched one of those kidnapping storys on youtube and I thought until 40 minutes in that the situation must have beed retty bad for her until the last 5 minutes which gave lasting anxiety. That shit isn't just bad, its horrifying
not sure what context this is supposed to add
The rapists.
The artist spoke about this on Reddit. Social media outlets automatically remove content with rape and ban the artists. She said she just can’t be bothered with the hassle so even though she dislikes doing it, she started self-censoring to comply.
As someone who has been browsing the web since the very beginning, young peoples' obsession with only using the same five websites and nothing else is so fucking bizarre to me. Don't like a particular platform's censorship? Use a different fucking platform! We've never had more options!
I agree as someone who held onto reddit for far too long. But if you're trying to reach a wide audience Lemmy doesn't really work for that.
network effect
you can say things like Die, or killed, which is ridiculous.
I remember (from ages aggo) a list of things fb censored and which are ok.
In short anything slightly too sexual was off limits (that's probably not the case anymore by now).
And anything violent, horrific, grotesque,... was just fine and dandy.
Just to illustrate what a fucked up version of reality they try to cultivate there.
i mean i don't like it either but I'm glad the artist is able to spread their work so I can see it, if they insisted on taking a stand and stubbornly kept making art that was immediately censored I don't think this post would exist and that's worse than the current situation
You can spread any message you like, as long as it is censored in compliance with the ministry of truth.
If it's really that way, then it really sucks. Tho I cannot blame the artist, they gotta get this thing across somehow. I just wished the artist would at least create an alternate uncensored version or something..
I mean, yeah. When you’re on a platform you have to abide by that platform’s rules if you want to be able to keep posting on that platform.
That's what you choose to take away?
Because everything has to be PG or people throw a fucking snowflake temper tantrum. Even though everyone knows the words they're obviously saying. It's like bleeping out cuas words on the radio. It's not like anyone over 4 doesn't know what they're saying.
As a side note I was an elementary teacher for a decade, your kids are sailors at school, even if you think they're angels.
Idk where you got the idea that it is the people who want this bullshit. Literally everywhere you see this kind of censorship, people are complaining that it's there.
It's fucking corporate run spaces and their AI moderation that will stifle the reach of posts or just straight up remove them if they don't follow the arbitrary censorship rules that is forcing content creators to self censor themselves in order to have their posts be visible on the major social media platforms.
But why do corporations want to censor bad words when they don't care if their products are harming or even killing people?
Because they can't show certain types of ads in proximity to certain things.
They have agreemeents with ad-buyers etc.
Usually it's about nudity or swearing but probably non-PG or nsfw topics wre included in some too.
Because the minds of the owning class that run these companies are twisted and only care about the Almighty Profit Incentive™
They don't care if their products are harming people because they don't care about you, the consumer, after you've bought the product. They got their profit out of you. Any bad press about it can be minimized with marketing campaigns to obscure the facts from the general, uninformed public. Prime example of this is Big Tobacco's efforts over the decades to hide the harmful effects of smoking before they could no longer keep a lid on it.
The censorship nonsense is surrounded by arbitrary, prudish culture bullshit which ad companies care about because they want to be able to market to the widest available audience, so they don't want to purchase ad space with platforms that permit anything controversial, thus platforms which rely on ad revenue for profit choose to enforce censorship so that those ad companies will choose to buy their ad space.
When asking "why do companies do [X]" it is always about profit.
It's fucked up that a common way of trying to get someone killed is to send law enforcement to their house. How badly has our society messed up to make that our reality?
This is only a common way in countries with low police standards. In Germany you could probably also provoke the police sending the SEK to someone's home, but they're way better trained how to not use their weapon. Not to mention the one who called will get fucked sideways for such a thing.
Not to say our cops are all great (fuck no), just that the US doesn't properly educate theirs about deescalation and non-lethal tactics.
We expect better deescalation from corner store cashiers than from police
In Quebec we recently just made it a crime to hurt a cops feelings:
Yeah, my point exactly.
that really isn't suprising considering all the publicity
This reminds me of a story my daughter told me. My daughter and one of her guy friends were sitting around talking about their experiences. They got into the typical one upping each other and he dropped the first time he had sex was with his babysitter when he was 12.
My daughter immediately apologized for what had happened to him (babysitter was 17). He was confused at first because no one had ever reacted that way. Most people cheered or egged him on when he told them. After he thought about it he thanked her. I was very proud of her when she told me this.
…I’m a guy, and I remember defaulting to “bragging” about having a 19 year old girlfriend when I was 14. That seemed socially appropriate because of the praise I got. My partner at the time apologized like that too and I , also, was confused.
When I remembered what happened the first time it was pretty bad.
I was spending the night at my friends house while both our parents went out and she was the “adult” in case anything would happen while they were gone. She kept walking by the door in less and less clothing.
Then I remember her bringing us some snacks and drinks in her underwear for our video game marathon which caught my attention. We intended to stay up all night so I was confused when my friend fell asleep kinda suddenly.
I wasn’t tired so I kept playing. She comes out into the living room in only a towel, and just came over and took it from me, like. No words exchanged or anything just kissed me on the forehead when she was done with me. My friend is still snoring.
Suddenly I wanted to spend the night every weekend. Same scenario though, my friend would zonk out after snacks and she would come in and use me up. Of course it took me decades to realize she was drugging her brother so she could do that to me. I thought she loved me so I started treating her like a girlfriend. My parents picked up on it and did nothing. Said nothing. Took me to go hang out with her alone often.
Even now it’s really disgusting to think about. She is no longer alive so I can’t really do anything or tell her it was fucked up.
I have a hard time connecting to people. I think that’s why.
I'm sorry that happened to you, that was fucked up.
Therapy has been really helpful. I don’t want to tell the whole story to anyone I know so being able to dump it all on some old lady that I don’t know is kinda amazing.
Im doing better about it now. Thank you.
😢 that is so upsetting the adults reinforced it and approved it and encouraged it, how confusing it must have been, you were just a kid, yeah you kinda liked it but when we look back on things in retrospect through our adult eyes we see clearly, and your adults should have known better through their own adult understanding and they should have protected you. Because children & adults are simply incompatible as sexual partners and almost always causes lifelong psychological & social trauma for the victim 😢
What made you start to realise it was fucked up? Is it when you realised you'd been used rather than loved? And how might it affect how you're able to connect with people now?
Just trying to understand how we go from celebrating a situation to feeling scared by it.
I saw her at the store one day a few years ago. We exchanged pleasantries and all that you’d do seeing an Ex, which is how I saw her in the moment. Something bothered me for a while after that. I couldn’t believe how short she was! Like she was less than 5 feet but I didn’t think I was a full foot and a half taller than her.
That’s because I wasn’t much taller than her then. I hadn’t finished growing. And then I remembered how it all went down. Realizing it could have had meaning to it, with someone I at least knew and maybe cared about. The fact that even my parents were just fine with it started to make me sick.
Started thinking about relationships in my adult life and how none of them have been satisfying. I’ve never been close enough to anyone to really have that kind of bond with. Being used and praised for it is a mindfuck.
kinda like the ISAIP episode, where Dee said dennis was 'raped" when he said he bedded an older lady at 14, then the realization sunk in for him after being confused for a second.
This is one of those comics where I have no clue what's actually going on and who Jane Doe is and subsequently want to look it up but then realise that I really don't need that information in my life, it's probably a harrowing and dreadful story. I'm gonna enjoy my blissful ignorance and listen to ride the cyclone instead.
If you do decide to looks it up, the reach term to find stories about this event is below
Tap for spoiler
Cornell 7. In 2024, A group of 7 frat fuck sticks gang raped a woman for 7 hours. Their only punishment was to write an essay. Cornell swept it under the rug.
Have you ever considered not being a piece of shit?
Consented
Drunk
Drunk people can't consent, dipshit.
Edit: And that's before mentioning she was given high amount of other substances that she was not used to.
Insane take. For one, drunk is giant fucking spectrum. But more importantly, SO WERE THE MEN!!! The only reason you people don't care is because you haven't deconstructed the patriarchy in your mind. Sex to you is still something a woman would never really want, and that men inflict upon a woman.
Just so you know where the downvotes and hate are coming from; and for anyone else who doesn't understand either: "consenting while drunk" is not consent. There's no 'regret it later', since there wasn't consent - it's more like 'feel regret after becoming aware of it', but even regret is the wrong word. disgusted, violated, furious.
I don't have immediate access to the evidence, but my understanding is that these men and/or their accomplices intentionally got this woman too drunk to resist. She was unable to competently say yes, but she was also unable to competently say no.
If you think of this and other rape cases stemming from 'they were drunk and regretted it later' situations as the fault of the drunk person, please go educate yourself about consent and why being intoxicated precludes it.
I don’t have immediate access to the evidence, but my understanding is that these men and/or their accomplices intentionally got this woman too drunk to resist. She was unable to competently say yes, but she was also unable to competently say no.
Close, they were feeding her ketamine.
That's not a good article on alcohol and consent. This is not true. Here's a better write up on the subject.
Kind of harmful to spread honestly. This is the kind of misinformation that showed up in consent talks 10-15 years ago. It really should be treated with the nuance the subject deserves so people are properly educated.
I don't know for sure what the facts here were. If she was unable to say yes/no than that is obviously rape. My understanding was that she was able to and did say no to some things (which the guys then did not do) and agreed to others. According to her own statement to the police, which seemed trustworthy to me. If that is what happened, I don't see how it was rape. If something else happened, than it could be rape.
no
If you are in a mind altered state then you can’t consent to shit.
Let’s put it this way, would anyone allow you to sign a contract for a loan or house if you were drunk. No they wouldn’t.
Edit - furthermore if they (and that’s a big if as opposed to did) pushed the drinks and shots and who knows what else on her, to make it so she said yes then that sure as fuck proves they knew she had to be blitzed to say yes.
Drunk is big fucking spectrum. She was definitely not blackout drunk. Most importantly, all the goddamn men were drunk and high too!! Did she rape them? Or is sex something a woman could never want, something men inflict upon women?
No one will let you out of a contract because you took one or two shots prior. Unless you are unconciouss or visibly don't understand what is happening, consent is consent. Or did she also rape the guys since they were drinking as well, also unable to consent? From what I read, she was neither passed out nor passive.
If they actually spiked her drink, she was passed out, or anything else of the kind, that's of course rape.
Jane Doe is a pseudonym used to represent the (female) victim in court documents when the victim's identity and/or privacy shall be protected.
Aahhh, so that's why the name seems familiar even though there's nothing in particular I associate with it (except for ride the cyclone), thanks!
Wait, you're not traumatised by my response? g https://lemmy.world/post/52932971/26261891
you're welcome!
AAAAHH SOME HELPFUL AND VERY NON-SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE ABOUT AN IMPORTANT DETAIL TO THE CONVERSATION HOW WILL I EVER RECOVER
If providing a definition for a general expression to someone who mistook it for a name is "giving details about a horrific thing" to you, then that's definitely a you-problem.
They came into the thread. They commented on the thread. They are not the only person in this thread. To think that the thread should come to a complete halt because one person who willingly participated said they don't like the topic is asinine. But at least you and I both got to do what we love: complain pointlessly.
If you're a woman, more power to you.
If you're a man, get reading. You don't get to sit this one out.
Why is this getting down votes, the song IS good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPLqsLsooJY
Huh I Didn't say that and didn't notice you could read it like that. I meant I dont need to know more. I know a reference and that reference has a tragic backstory to it and I don't want to traumatize myself by knowing the actual backstory. Thank you for telling me
There's a ton of bad shit going on in the world, and I can't affect 99.999% of it directly. My empathy battery is fucking dry at this point and while I do know about this situation, I know there are hundreds if not thousands of others I don't know about.
For my mental health, I could imagine limiting my exposure to additional horrific things if I could.
Every time something like this hits national news, I use it to send my state leadership another request asking them to make a new category in the statute renaming 'sexual battery' (paraphrased, sexual contact without consent) to 'rape' if there is intoxication involved.
Right now my state is [misdemenor]no consent => [felony]underage; active-no; active-no with violence.
I want a felony non-consent with intox, and I want the law to have very limited requirements for the victim to prove intoxication, since it might be days or even months later that the victim is able to speak up.
I hope whoever started this censorship fad falls into a meat grinder feet first. Stupidest bullshit ever.
Algorithms, investors, capitalism....
Enshittification too. There was a time on the Internet when you could say rape and suicide and kill. Then shareholder capitalism arrived and said actually these words decrease shareholder value by 0.001% and we can't let that happen anymore
I think it's also because some people are extra bothered by setting the full word without some attempt to mark it. Really if this was like the rest of the fediverse there would be a CW on it. And please don't quote Louis CK at me.
Those people should just suck it the fuck up. It’s a goddamned word. Marking it or making the letting look off to get around moderation highlights the word if anything. It’s stupid crybaby bullshit.
For anyone curious, they're apparently finally reopening the Cornel 7 rape case for the dudes who had to write an essay for gangraping a woman for what amounts to a working shift....
The statistics really are abhorent, and not just the heartbreakingly high share of women who have been assaulted but also that 95% of men in North America have tried to coerce women into sex
look at the chart, not saying it will be that much less if you use your personal definition of rape, but the most common method "The most common strategy was telling a woman whatever she wanted to hear and this was used by the majority (78.1%)" probably wouldn't be called rape by very many people.
It's vague enough as to presumably include flattery
I remember My mother thinking the TV series Mad Men was too real because she worked in the late 70s and was sexually harassed as a 20 year old.
It's all wild to me, The reception in my office are all like my little sisters, I just want to protect them and annoy them.
A term that I stumbled across a few years ago is "hermeneutical injustice", a phrase that was coined in response to sexual harassment in the 70s and onwards. It refers to when people who have faced an injustice don't have the language to be able to talk about their experiences properly, which inhibits their ability to personally process their experiences, as well as making it harder to organise against the systemic injustice they had faced. It's effectively an extra layer of systemic injustice on top of what they have already experienced.
Linking this to something concrete, we can look at the fact that when women were first entering the workplace in the 60s and 70s, "sexual harassment" wasn't a term that existed, and women who experienced it struggled to communicate their experiences authentically. "What do you mean you're upset because your boss bought you flowers? He's just being nice".
"Sexual harassment" being coined made it possible for people (especially women) to talk about their experiences in the workplace in a manner that led to some structural change. Whilst it's still depressingly common in the workplace, as you highlight in your comment, we have come a long way.
That to me is the really surreal part of all this — the fact that if you existed in the 70s, you'd be far less likely to even notice problematic conduct such as that seen in Mad Men
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Gottfried
Easy example of what women had to deal with back then.
Very interesting, thankyou
Wow, that's a powerful one.
At first I was gonna write something like "I can't remember hearing an argument quite that tonedeaf".
But then it came back to me:
It was during/right after the metoo movement.
"Well why didn't they speak up sooner?"
This coming from an older woman.
The generational disconnect is astonishing.
its about megyn kelly how she justifed her SA/SH WAS different.
Sexual Assault. Sexual Harassment. Rape.
For fuck sake, people censoring words to skirt 'the algorithm' so their 'post is higher' isn't helping. Making people have to 'decode' voluntarily-censored words impedes vital attention to - and discussion of - a horrible subject and hideous act that needs to be dragged into the light, kicking and screaming. Censoring these subject seems like obfuscation, and these loathsome acts should never be hidden. People who perpetrate such crimes thrive in darkness, when all they deserve is shame, ostracision, and long prison sentences.
Using SA is pretty normal to tone down the horrible implications of the word. It's not censorship in the algo sense, but it's instead to lessen the impact the word can have on victims of it.
Fair point.
using abbreviations in comments is fine, it's just like any other shortened term
the censoring in the post is dumb, though
A is assault. What's H?
Well, I understand censoring S*x or sex, but assault and harassment shouldn't be. Not everyone can understand acronyms
Probably harassment
Harassment
I always understood SH as an acronym for self harm
In this context Sexual Harassment seems more likely, but that's the problem with censorship, you can never be sure what the person using it was trying to say, or if they were even actually trying to say anything to start with.
Me too!
iDK what the lady in the comic and her friends did in their past, but this Cornell case is pretty blatant. To start with, the idea of fraternities is very stupid from an outsider point of view, rich kids having each other's backs is not a good idea, with their family and personal connections. Very American stuff. Then the drugs, which bear death and blood, Americans just can't grasp it, how their recreation and fun implies violence and death on the poor, which is commonly a racist activity.
Then the rape does not come as a surprise. Drugs and a life of privileges and a sordid education about blessed individuality. A girl gets kettamined, all alone in one of this houses. It may have some nuance in the sense of consent, but it is clear someone drugged her with a criminal intention. Probably all of them knew.
But this comic is very problematic because it's not clear what happened to that lady in her past. Was she gangbanged under ketamine with her friends by seven frat boys? In topics like rape, you don't just assume things lightly.
not clear what happened to that lady in her past.
Sexually assaulted without consequences within a social culture that condones it.
Sure, but I don't think the American society really condones the Cornell U situation. I mean, even if they elected a sexual predator, it was a close election.
Pedestrian? Lol, do you drive a comedy car or something?
Jane Doe's sworn statement in November of 2024 did not allege that she was drugged against her will or gang raped. On the contrary, Jane Doe’s statement described her participation in drug use and sexual conduct as voluntary, conscious, and consensual.
…
The View's Sunny Hostin, a former federal prosecutor specializing in child sex crimes, said "she read the Jane Doe's original nine-page 2024 statement" and "there is no way, according to her statement in 2024, that any prosecutor would have brought the case."
How odd
The man started by apologizing for "how things went down." He said his memory is "kinda fuzzy," and that he and another man feel bad for being too intoxicated to "shut it down and kick people out before it got way out of hand."
The woman in the text chain replied that her memory is "super clouded too," and said they had all been heavily intoxicated.
She also wrote, "non(e) of the sexual stuff was illegal." She said she liked being with him and another man. Later, she suggested they smoke together again, "but like leave out the extra 5 billion men and ketamine."
You're not being as clever as you think you are.
You were just the victim of a drugged gang rape by a tightly knit group of students on your campus that you have to keep going to. Try walking in those shoes for a moment and think about how this experience might shape your responses when your rapists talk to you.
Its ok. They consented to some kinky stuff, relating to cutting off oxygen to their balls.
And if they fall off, its just a known risk they consented to.
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Comic Strips is a community for those who love comic stories.
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*�️ Community Standards
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- Any comic that would qualify as raunchy, lewd, or otherwise draw unwanted attention by nosy coworkers, spouses, or family members should be tagged as NSFW.
- Moderators have final say on what and what does not qualify as appropriate. Use common sense, and if need be, err on the side of caution.
*� Keep it Real
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*�️ Credit Where Credit is Due
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- Attributions include, but are not limited to, watermarks, links, or other text or imagery that artists add to their comics to use for identification purposes. If you find a comic without any such markings, it would be a good idea to see if you can find an original version. If one cannot be found, say so and ask the community for help!
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- Meta posts about the community should be tagged with [Meta] either at the beginning or the end of the post title.
- When linking to a comic hosted on another site, ensure the link is to the comic itself and not just to the website; e.g.,
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When posting images, you should strive to add alt-text for screen readers to use to describe the image you're posting:
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go to feed...
Everyone has known a woman like this 🥺 can't criticize what she's been through but she's out there perpetuating harm and you can't make her see that
save