Yea but there's so many of them! They must be getting controlled by some imaginary ruling class, or something
Yea but there's so many of them! They must be getting controlled by some imaginary ruling class, or something
And the claw people
I mean yeah, but how is this a shower thought?
Is in the US.
One of the most heavily propagandized cultures in the world and most of the people in it would swear that they don’t fall for propaganda or, even more ridiculous, that there isn’t any to fall for.
What I mean is here in the US we simp for the rich and hate the poor, therefore OP's post really is nothing but a shower thought.
Seeing the downvotes I think people didn't get it. Maybe that fancy European Education isn't as good as y'all think it is 🤣
Yes I’m agreeing with you. People don’t love their oppressors for no reason, they’re culturally influenced to do so. The US is a pretty extreme example of it. Which is why it’s a shower thought to Americans; it requires a detached perspective to escape cultural preconceptions.
How exactly is this a shower thought? (I agree by the way, but how?)
Yeah, this dude is using his shower as his political soapboax
ArseAssassin would never. How dare you accuse ArseAssassin of such things.
I mean, who doesn't think the dynamics of the society and power structures of the system and the injustice of it all during their showers? I personally find myself thinking about these, almost exclusively, on my showers. Is it an age thing, maybe?
Also one of the aspects of fascism
The enemy or 'other' is both simultaneously weak and unworthy and should be defeated ... and powerful and oppressive and is the cause of all problems.
I keep thinking about that, and I keep coming back to how the ones being lied to will double down on "but the ____ actually are very powerful! That's why they've taken so much for themselves! That's why they have so many protections!"
I've had a conversation like that.
"By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak." - Umberto Eco
“If you want to know who controls you, look at who you are not allowed to criticize”
— Voltaire
I don't think that holds true quite as much today as it did back when Voltaire said it. He was calling out authoritarian structures like the christian church if I remember correctly. While certainly still true in totalitarian systems like dictatorships, it's a somewhat different situation in democracies for example. In a democracy you are generally allowed to criticize anyone. However, powerful entities like big corporations and the very rich might still abuse the system to sue you into oblivion.
Also this quote gets misused quite often by people who do not understand the difference between hate speech and criticism and by people who think being called out and criticized for their words is the same as being "not allowed to criticized" or silenced.
I think the white is referring to minorities being scapegoated, though. While absolutely some people vote against their best interests, they often don't have the numbers to make change themselves (eg, trans and NB people are maybe 1% of the population but getting severely attacked right now) or the system is constantly trying to screw them over (eg, black people are a sizable chunk of the population, but there's countless efforts to restrict their ability to vote and keep them poor).
The white?
Lol np buddy
Do a ridiculous proportion of people still buy gas-guzzling SUVs and plastic water bottles and use plastic bags at the grocery store unnecessarily? Yes
It's not that this doesn't matter, it does. But almost every time it's mentioned is alongside industrial climate impacts as if they were at all in a similar scale.
They aren't even close. People doing the 'well actually' thing for individual climate impacts are inadvertently being patsies for corporations to continue to deflect scrutiny away from the absolutely ridiculous levels of climate impacts they have. And while consumers are trying to move to metal straws, corporations have basically not even started trying to address low hanging fruit ways to mitigate climate change, let alone anything slightly tricky.
Yes, but expecting corporations to do it on their own is silly. They operate in a competitive environment so game theory should tell us what's going to usually happen. The laws and regulations exist, and a lot more are needed, but it's also not as simple because costs of enforcement also range from inexpensive to infeasible. In the end, it's people making self-interested decisions, whether on behalf of themselves or on behalf of corporations. I don't know of any easy solutions - my feeling is that those don't exist - so the best bet is to steer society towards better and more effective politics. More distributed and less concentrated power structures, checks and balances, enforcement, novel, effective, and efficient systems through science based analysis, as well as lots of trials and errors and fast iterative improvements based on rapid feedback loops. In short, the world nowadays moves faster than the current government systems and it's a losing battle until governing adaptability can increase in speed.
And in the same turn, consumers can't buy a product that doesn't exist. Until more environmentally friendly products are on the market made by the producers, consumers don't have a real choice, abstention is not a viable choice.
I still need food, I require the ability to move those groceries from the shop to my car to my house, but if no one produces an environmentally friendly way to do so then I'm at the mercy of the plastic bags, bottles, containers, and wrapping I've been provided.
Just like we couldn't use unleaded gasoline until they started making unleaded gasoline.
Just like we can't start using renuable energy until they start making renuable energy.
Just like we can't recycle our waste because we don't have the infrastructure to recycle our waste.
Just like we can't take mass transport that hasn't been built, or use green energy infrastructure that doesn't exist, or buy products without plastic that don't exist.
The idea that there is only two options: do nothing or do 100 %, is a comfort zone. People who argue for personal responsibility argue that everyone should do as much as they can.
I get your point and it's fair. Only those with the power to shift opinion can be held responsible in 2023. The consolidation of power and bullhorn should not be taken for granted. People are just people. Trillions are spent into making their decisions for them. You missed the forest for the trees in OPs sentiment imho.
You do NOT have the power to change minds that e.g. a Koch brother has. That's not an opinion.
Sorry to say, but many can barely afford rent and the bills, let alone even imagine trying to go out of their way to fix the climate.
Buy an electric car you say? Hell, can't even afford a new tire for the old car to get to work, you gotta be out of your mind to think poor people can afford to buy a new EV because fOSsiL FUeL bAd...
Yes, clearly fossil fuel is bad, but how you expect the vast number of people living week to week and can barely afford new shoes to buy an EV?
It's not a choice to live in poverty when the billionaires literally milk most of the population of every penny they can get away with while not even paying their employees a fair living wage.
It's a pretty incredible trick to convince people that those who, demonstrably, have the least power in society are responsible for all of its problems. What's that thing about how there has to be an enemy, and that enemy has to simultaneously be weak, wretched and inferior but also strong enough to pose a threat that justifies an authoritarian response? I forget who tends to do that...
Money is power. The people with the most money have the most power and therefore bear the most responsibility for the way things are
Well, yeah.
It's not the powerless that made things how they are, it's the powerful that shape the world.
It's also worth noting that when you're powerful but don't have the votes it takes to do a thing you want, the shortest path to getting those votes is unifying people around being mad at some sort of scapegoat.
This is why fascism looks the way it does
it emerges from a democracy in some sort of crisis
it's always that elites (a voting minority of powerful interests) need political support
the way they always get it is by focusing anger on a scapegoat, with promises to punish them
Currently watching Lord of the Harry Witcher right now and can confirm this.
Let us examine the couch movers analogy.
A) If two people, A and B, who can lift 25 lb move a 50 lb couch, and A does not try 100%, whose fault is is that couch does not get moved?
B) If A can lift 20 lb and B 30 lb, and A does not give 100%, whose fault is it then?
C) If A can lift 30 lb and B 20 lb, and A does not give 100%, whose fault is it then?
D) What if both can lift 20 lb?
E) What if A can lift 100 lb and B can lift 20 lb?
F) What if A can lift 20 lb and B can lift 100 lb?
G) What if A and B can both lift 100 lb?
I find it interesting that whose fault seemingly changes even if it is always assumed A is not giving 100% in all cases.
I think where this analogy falls short is that in reality it gets assumed everyone can lift the same if they just would give 100 %. And therefore one person always gets the blame since they are seemingly not giving enough.
Otherwise known as bootstraps.
The thing assholes always tell you they pulled themselves up by, conveniently ignoring their rich, connected family and friends that was the biggest factor in their success.
There's also a difference between fault, responsibility, and ability to do something. They're interrelated, but they're not equivalent. If A is able to move 100 pounds, but not obligated to do so and not trying then A is able, but not responsible and not at fault. If A can only lift 20 pounds, works as a mover and gives their best effort then A is unable to move the couch, responsible for moving the couch, but not at fault as they've done everything they can do to move the couch. I could go on but my point stands: it's a weak, reductive metaphor.
Seems more like one person who could lift the couch one handed is sitting on it yelling at the person who can't lift it by themselves
Ok, so you’re being lied to by proxy
I'm gonna have to steal that term for my own use
It's not a matter of responsibility.
The rich and powerful won't safe the world. If we don't want to live in a world with so many natural desasters that there is no farming and only synthetic food, then things have to change.
The opposite of the rich and powerful are not the weak and vulnerable but almost everybody. It's OK to let things happen but it's also possible to change everything, maybe even in a week or two.
But what about your carbon footprint? Isn’t this all your fault for asking your boss for a cost-of-living pay rise?
lemmy is so based 🙏
Labor.
Thats not what I'm saying and you know it's not. Quit arguing like a drunk uncle at Thanksgiving.
This is some enlightened centrist crap. Some people are actually responsible for things. I thought that was obvious.
You're right people are responsible for things, you're right that that's obvious. In fact, it's so obvious, it's wrong of you to imply that my point suggested otherwise, because it obviously doesn't. Your sentiment supports my comment, people are responsible for things, so if you have a problem with something, and you feel the need to blame someone for it, you should actually blame the right person. "The rich" are not a group of people united out of a common goal, and include all sorts of political and cultural sentiments, many of which you would support. Moreover, the post makes no suggestion as to what problems they're talking about anyway, so you kinda just have to already believe "rich people" in general are the people responsible for any general set of problems you choose to believe. If you don't see the flaw in this thinking, you've got a serious problem with political vitriol, and you need to stop blindly circle jerking everything you see on lemmy.
The sad thing is, I know you'd agree with me if I said the exact same thing in a thread blaming socialists or Marxists or something. My opinion that you shouldn't blame general problems on a general group of people for the sake of hating on them doesn't change based on context.
What exactly are you trying to say here? That—because some guy thinks all of America’s problems are rooted in the left automatically siding with the little guy—the rich and powerful aren’t actually powerful?
No individual is responsible for everything. But there are a disproportionately small number of individuals with a disproportionately large amount of power over a lot of things that affect a disproportionately large number of people. And you can bet they talk to each other.
But the claim here is just wrong. Being rich and powerful doesn’t make them automatically accountable for everything.
No, of course not. No one is responsible for everything.
But, as a very quick and simplistic example of what the post is saying, if someone hates immigrants because “they took our jobs,” that person is missing the very obvious fact that employers are the ones hiring people. Immigrants can’t “force” that. And of course even that employer is responding to pressures, both systemic and from above them.
No, “being accountable for everything” is not the definition of powerful.
Either you are being short-sighted or disingenuous. Of course they aren't automatically accountable for EvErYtHiNg. But they are accountable for a vastly disproportionate amount of things that affect most people's lives. Ya know, that's how power works.
You should do some reading into complex systems analysis. No one is putting everything on any specific individual. The system we live in acts similarly to a living being. It broadly seeks to exist in perpetuity and will do what it can to see that through. In our societal system the more money you have, the more powerful you are and the powerful implement systems to further expand and entrench their power. They're benefactors of a violent and corrupt system that runs on exploitation and they have a responsibility to dismantle it. They never will so everyone else needs to do it for them.
thanks for using Leebra!
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No no you don't understand. It's always the people with the least amount of economic power who are responsible for everything!
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