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FMT99 108 points 3 years ago
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BolexForSoup 77 points 3 years ago

I think many of us would stand up to help someone far away if we had some way of actually clearly doing it immediately. Most people do the right thing when given the opportunity and understanding of a situation. It’s hard to convince somebody to suddenly drop access to 90% of the products available to them and to change their entire lifestyle/spend more time and money with the vague promise of “if you and everyone else do it then some day sweat shops will end.”

However, if you went to that same person today and said “if you stop buying Nike products, this person right here will get an education, a decent job, and have a bright future. They will stop working at a sweat shop today,” I bet they’d stop.

It’s just really hard to give people a clear path to helping sometimes. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t stop participating in unethical industries, but I think it’s important to remember that it’s not purely apathy. It’s just hard to not only connect the dots for people, but give them an option that feels like it actually makes a difference.

It’s a tough challenge and it’s why advocates of any cause of have to work so hard to demonstrate the path of your dollars or time to helping those in need.

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psivchaz 32 points 3 years ago

It's also difficult to make good decisions. In modern America, it is hard to get by without at least a cellphone, but how do you as a consumer track the entire supply chain? How do I know which phone is made in part with slavery or people in terrible working conditions? How do I know which is the most environmentally friendly?

This is just one example and there are any number of other products with surprisingly bad supply chains or that might be hiding surprisingly bad practices. We've had fruit companies funding coups not that long ago, so what hope does the average consumer have of even attempting to make ethical decisions in their day to day needs?

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BolexForSoup 32 points 3 years ago

The Good Place covered this so well. They basically asked 2 fundamental questions:

  1. is it reasonable in today’s world for people to truly know the ripple of all their decisions (especially around consumption) or is an honest effort good enough?

  2. if people grow and learn when surrounded by love and support how can we hold it against them when they don’t get it?

I mostly bring up number 2 because it’s just a beautiful, honest question.

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kaba0 2 points 3 years ago

I also thought of that series!

What might be a solution to this problem is to establish a trusted system/program (already hard) that would very comfortably allow you to make these decisions: e.g. you would like to decrease the profits of any company exploiting poor people in Africa (fuck nestle), so you mark that option, and during shopping, scanning a product would instantly flag any which is related to the issue.

There actually is something similar (buycott?), but it is not really used where I live. It probably would have to be very comfortable to use, like actually calculating your budget/spendings, otherwise people wouldn’t use it.

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givesomefucks 11 points 3 years ago

You should watch "The Good Place" if you haven't already

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Resonosity 4 points 3 years ago

I just did this calculus for, yes, men's underwear, and it was quite the ordeal.

Not even the most "sustainable" brands release or even know their entire supply chain(s), let alone whether the companies within it practice labor, social, environmental, or economic ethics.

I wasn't able to finish the project to 100% like I'd have wanted, but if anyone wants to know more about how sustainability intersects the textile industry, lmk. I can also share about those brands I researched too.

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malamignasanmig 11 points 3 years ago

very well said. you perfectly explained how it feels when every decision you make 'will not make a difference anyway'. some would say, isnt that indifference; i would argue no, more like helplessness and hopelessness. how much mental energy are you going to spend on someone continents away when you can barely survive in your own society.

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BolexForSoup 12 points 3 years ago

Exactly. It feels helpless/hopeless. That’s a great way to describe it.

I often think back to that plastic->paper straw campaign. Ignoring the stupid social politics around it and the fact that people should have vetted the work of a kid’s science project, I think a lot of people jumped at it because that felt like something very tangible, immediate, and realistic. They could start literally that day and know those straws weren’t going in a landfill/ocean. A lot of people stopped using plastic straws, tons of businesses dropped them as well. Again, it’s kind of a complicated moment and honestly maybe it wasn’t the greatest use of our efforts, I kind of want to ignore the efficacy debate here lol. But it clearly demonstrates that a lot of people are willing to do the right thing when the way it helps is clear to them and they can take direct action!

The sad extra layer to the situation is that whenever people try to do stuff like this, you immediately see pundits on the news or people online calling everything they do performative or “virtue signaling.” So not only is it hard to see why what you do makes a difference, but you’re immediately attacked for it socially a lot of the time too.

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sharkfucker420 5 points 3 years ago

It's almost like exploitation is an inherent facet of capitalism

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BolexForSoup 8 points 3 years ago

Right it’s a serious problem. But ultimately I can’t hate people for not being fully aware of every purchasing decision they make or doing literally everything possible to mitigate their impact. And it’s not like they’re forcing Nike to make shoes the way they do.

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sharkfucker420 4 points 3 years ago

I can't either. I'm only mad at the system, no one has the luxury of choosing not to participate especially the proletariat.

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Hyperreality -25 points 3 years ago

It’s just really hard to give people a clear path to helping sometimes.

Sell half of your clothes, games, books, etc. Never eat meat again. Never drink anything but tap water again. Never buy games or subscribe to a streaming service again. Never buy anything but basic soap and toothpaste. Never buy new clothes again. Donate the money to Oxfam, Doctors Without Borders or the Red Cross.

There. A clear and simple path to helping others, which requires relatively little sacrifice, and which will literally save lives.

You won't do it though.

We like to convince ourselves we're good. We donate a bit at christmas, we pay lip service to good causes, .... but humans aren't good. We're animals led by instinct and vanity. We'd rather enjoy our luxuries, then lie to ourselves that we didn't just choose to let someone suffer rather than forego a fleeting pleasure.

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BolexForSoup 17 points 3 years ago

This is too hostile for my blood. You’re already deciding the kind of person I am and what I will/won’t do.

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Hyperreality -4 points 3 years ago

I'm assuming that like me, you are a human being with all the flaws that this entails.

It's easy to lie to ourselves, pretend we're better than that, but history is filled with examples of people like you and me, who did horrific things or allowed horrific things to happen.

I could drink tapwater. Instead I chose to drink coffee from a questionable source.

I could have donated 50 euros to malaria prevention. Instead I bought a new pc game.

I could have eaten rice with lentils. Instead I chose to make myself an absolutely delicious bacon sandwhich.

Again and again, we all make poor and unethical choices. The small donation at christmas or day a week volunteering doesn't do much to tip the scale.

Obviously, it's painful to accept that we're all evil to a certain degree. We like to think we're better than that.

Vanity. It's the Devil's favourite sin.

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gmtom 8 points 3 years ago

I already have very few clothes and next to no books or games. I don't eat meat and drink tap water 99% of the time. I'm not on any subscription service and buy a new game maybe twice a year if that. And I donate 1/3 of my "disposable" income to charities.

So please take me seriously when I say: fuck right off you smug prick.

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Hyperreality -6 points 3 years ago

Imagine if you're standing next to a pond and a kid's drowning. You can choose to save the kid, but instead you choose to eat an ice cream. That's evil, right? Now imagine if dying kid's 2000 miles away, and instead of donating to a charity that could help them, you buy two pc games. How is that not evil too?

If someone let a kid drown in a pod, would it be a valid defense if they said "I saved 9/10 kids drowning in the pond, so I felt like an ice cream"? Of course not. What about if they said "I only have two ice creams a year, the kid had to die."? Also evil.

To be absolutely clear. I am no better than you. In fact, given you say you donate a lot to charity, avoid animal products and drink tap water, it's not unlikely you're a far better human being than I am.

The fact that you choose to not do evil things, shows we can all choose to do less evil. It's just that most of us, even the best of us, still choose to do evil things anyway.

And to be clear, the person who lets one kid drown, is still a better human being than the person who drowns hundreds of kids on a regular basis, but no one ever got a medal for not murdering 99/100 women. Allowing the guys who commit evil get away with it scot free, is also something evil many of us do, often for banal reasons.

We're intelligent beings. We are able to tell right from wrong. We can choose to be good and overcome our nature, we should forgive ourselves when we don't always succeed (because you should be kind to all sentient beings, yourself included), but we also shouldn't lie to ourselves because it feels good.

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Promethiel 7 points 3 years ago

The causes you mentioned, all have had scandals regarding apropriation or spending of funds.

The tasks you proclaim so clear and simple a path? Disingenuous to the point of being farcical, and if you can put that sentence together, you sure as fuck have the neuronal density to sit there and counter your own examples if you feel like sitting there and playing with yourself.

Instead however, don't stroke your ego. Actually read and take notice of how all of you in this chain are being choked by the same chain.

My tone in return is good ol' human hypocrisy, or as you might phrase it, an instinct. But it serves a purpose and I willingly allow it to run it's course.

Shame however, that you're so hopped on righteous fury you're lashing out at your own allies.

All throughout this chain, there's an abstraction layer above the Capitalist system of governance making it possible. Same layer that runs above every other shit we attempt. We're made to belong. The community's acceptance is vital to any change.

That's how the diseased hoarders ever got to where they are; constant and ever more insidious tools to separate us, to ever splinter the community umbrella.

That's what our instincts are built to thrive under; community. The instinct to eat can be suborned into an eating disorder by negative epigenetics meeting genetic predisposition.

You could break someone into disregulated eating given the right tools. What makes you think we're not constantly being pressed to avoid unity?

Our power comes when we try to understand each other. We can't all do the things that need to be done, we can't even begin to argue honestly for what must me done whilst punching down and around.

The sources of the disease sit a bit higher on their made up ladder than that.

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Hyperreality -6 points 3 years ago

No offense, but you sound like a pseudo-intellectual weirdo who's spends his free time sniffing his own farts and licking a thesaurus.

Perhaps you consider toning it down a bit and reflect on why you felt the need to write an overly long rambling comment.

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Ryantific_theory 6 points 3 years ago

This is a terrible and unhelpful take. The whole point of the comment above was that people don't have a clear path to genuinely improving things, and your response is "if you don't live like an ascetic monk, you're part of the problem." You can do all of those things and have literally zero impact unless everybody else also does the same.

You not buying mouthwash isn't saving lives, canceling Netflix isn't saving lives, not buying Cyberpunk 2077 does literally nothing. Even if everybody unilaterally decided to not buy the next Call of Duty, how exactly does that help reduce suffering?

You're basically saying that unless we dedicate ourselves body and soul to scripture, and donate our entire income outside of the bare minimum to survive, we are morally liable for capitalism. Which I think loops back to the original comment in that since there's no clear and actionable method to hold capitalists accountable, people desperately reach for anything that makes them feel like they're making a difference.

If you want an actual path to helping others, channel that monk energy into political activism.

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Hyperreality -1 points 3 years ago

Even if everybody unilaterally decided to not buy the next Call of Duty, how exactly does that help reduce suffering?

Are you arguing that 60 billion donated to the right charities wouldn't prevent suffering or save lives?

not buying Cyberpunk 2077 does literally nothing

60 dollars buys a mosquito net or vaccine, potentially saving a life.

If you want an actual path to helping others, channel that monk energy into political activism.

"zero impact unless everybody else also does the same."

"not buying Cyberpunk 2077 does literally nothing."

"there’s no clear and actionable method"

I'm tired. I'm on holiday. There's no point voting anyway, it will have zero impact. There's no point saying anything, unless everyone does the same. There's no point donating 10 bucks. If I say something, I might miss out on that promotion. If I say something, my colleagues or friends might not like me. Don't mind grandpa, he's old. They're family, I'd prefer not to say anything. Etc. etc. etc.

All the little banal excuses we make, to not do anything. To not say anything. To continue sitting at a table with racists and nazis.

Happened in Germany in the 1930s, where good men did nothing and allowed evil to triumph.

Happening now.

And once again, I'm not saying I'm better than that, but we need to keep stop making excuses and be honest with ourselves. It's the only way to become better. Not perfect, but better.

But as I said, vanity. It's hard to shake off. Easier to pretend you're good, do fuck all or next to nothing, then afterwords say "Wir haben es nicht gewusst." like the Germans did after the war.

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Wakmrow 4 points 3 years ago

None of that fixes the problem

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Hyperreality -3 points 3 years ago

Being unwilling to accept our own flaws, and our part in allowing evil to prosper, is the problem. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. This is what happened in Germany, when people were indifferent or cynical to the rise of the Nazis. Many weren't true believers, but they allowed it to happen, as Sacha Baron Cohen says.

We allow evil things to happen, because we don't care or for utterly banal reasons, then we pretend we didn't know better. "Wir haben es nicht gewusst!" was the stereotypical defense of Germans after the war, when accused of not having done enough to stop the war. They were unwilling to accept their part in allowing evil to prosper, so they lied to themselves that they didn't know what was happening.

Vanity is a hell of a thing. It's very hard to accept that we're capable of evil. We like very much to think that we're better than that.

But the best way to combat evil in this world, is to accept that we're not inherently good, that we do perpetuate evil or allow others to perpetuate evil on a regular basis, and be self-critical about it so that we avoid doing it as much as possible.

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kaba0 4 points 3 years ago

What impact do games have? Computers use very little energy, and come on, books?! Your plan is just plain stupid.

You can live an ultra minimal footprint life while not suffering - sure, maybe if you live in a huge house alone, move to an apartment and use public transport if feasible, etc. But there is no point in being depressed and basically torturing yourself.

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Hyperreality -1 points 3 years ago

Average game costs 60 dollars. That buys a few vaccines or mosquitoe nets that could save a life. If enough people donate 60 dollars to a political campaign, it can change the outcome of an election.

Looping back to the original quote, this is not that different to Germans in the 1930s. "My little contribution won't have an impact", "it's too hard", "there's no point in me trying" millions said, and Hitler was the result.

The Weimar Republic was famous for decadence and parties. Millions upon millions decided their small contribution wasn't going to change anything, so instead they engaged in small short-term pleasures, and stopped caring about the future.

Not that you shouldn't be able to buy the occasional luxury, but that doesn't mean we should lie ourselves about the simple fact that your money could have reduced suffering and made the world a better. You bought a game because you're a selfish, lazy, and imperfect human being. Once you realise this, you're also less likely to be selfishs as often, and more likely to spend your money/time/effort on making the world a better place.

But vanity and ego are difficult to overcome. For me too, obviously. Humans are kinda shit, but we have the ability to realise we're shit and be better than that at least some of the time.

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iByteABit 4 points 3 years ago

Out of the necessity to live, you can't sacrifice everything. You can stop voting for them though, but no one does. Why don't they?

Because that would mean change and uncertainty, and people would not even be bothered with that for a better world, they're too comfortable ignoring reality.

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heckypecky 72 points 3 years ago

While it is a good quote and true to some extent, it oversimplifies the situation of the population of Germany during the Nazi regime. It was not indifference that kept people who disagreed with Hitler quiet, it was terror. The Gestapo and SS were the most important factors that allowed Hitler to keep the population in check.

Ask yourself, would you speak up against Nazis in a mostly democratic country we live in today? Without doubt I assume. Would you speak up if it means that the next day uniformed men come knocking at your door and you and your entire family disappears, like it happened to the Schmids 2 Houses down the road?

The main threat is military -like groups who have the authority to quiet dissidents and spread fear.

Source: history in German schools and my 90 year old grandma

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SkyeStarfall 74 points 3 years ago

Before the nazis were in power, it was indifference, though. Once they are in power, it's borderline too late.

The quote is about a time like today.

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aramova 44 points 3 years ago

Stop expecting people to see forests through the trees.

It's just so much easier to make points about the final picture than the process it took to form it.

In 1923 Hitler attempted a coup, spent 1924 in prison and still managed to win an election with his rhetoric of hate.

We're witnessing our own innate flaw, the human condition in real time here, buying into a faux populist persona whose only talent is spreading hate, fear and doubt.

I worry that some part of the population will always struggle without having someone to hate or put below themselves and the Hitlers and Trumps will always appeal to them.

The indifferents in the country will just let it happen, it didn't affect them they believe, until it's too late.

So, it's up to those who recognize what's going on to ensure we don't repeat the actions of a century ago.

The only way to ensure peace and tolerance is not to tolerate intolerance.

That's where we are today. The 1923 coup; Germany's Jan 6th, resulted in him going to jail and gaining more power.

History needs to first be taught before people can realize it's repeating.

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Grayox 22 points 3 years ago

The parallels are truely terrifying.

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Shadywack 6 points 3 years ago

I'm worried about that and I'm worried about civil war. The parallels are very striking but the destinations can vary still. None of them good.

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Kusimulkku 6 points 3 years ago

A lot of people fought against them (literally, in the streets). But also a lot of people fought for them. And funnily enough, partly that fighting and disorder was what helped to bring them to power.

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Daqu 11 points 3 years ago

More than 20% want to vote AfD. They are not forced by anyone. They just want those racist idiots in the government.

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jernej 7 points 3 years ago

That's why you must prevent the rise of these kindsof regimes by any means possible. And while would like to belive I would have spoken out against the Nazis I would probably be as terrified to as my neigjbours

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Cyberflunk 70 points 3 years ago
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PersnickityPenguin 29 points 3 years ago

What blew me away with his Borat character is how gullible the people he worked over were. Some were practically falling over themselves to befriend an anti Semite like him.

Even after the dude was famous, politicians were still acting like he was a legitimate, nice antisemite trying to whore out his daughter.

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MrFlamey 17 points 3 years ago

Did you check out his show "Who is America"? It turns out that Borat was just the tip of the iceberg.

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pachrist 4 points 3 years ago

This was some of the most horrifying TV I have ever watched. Like I know they went to some lengths to find the crazies, but they didn't have to did far to find a person with real, legitimate power to make decisions for this country who was willing to pull down his pants and scream n***** as loud has he could.

It was too horrific to be funny, which was kind of the point.

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Wogi 14 points 3 years ago

When you tell people what they want to hear and are afraid to say, they'll eat out of your hand, no matter how batshit insane what you have to say is.

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pineapplelover 69 points 3 years ago

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

—Martin Niemöller

Edit: communist, not socialist

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ComradeChairmanKGB 17 points 3 years ago

Using the revisionist version ☠️

https://stansburyforum.com/...'

Yet at the Holocaust museum and elsewhere, the word “Communist” has been dropped, replaced with “socialists,” as though Niemoller had written so, though he did not (for in 1945, even anti-communists recognized that communists were targets of fascism).

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Kusimulkku 4 points 3 years ago

Interesting read. I wouldn't think it changes the meaning, socialists being a wider grouping, but I can understand how especially communists would be ticked off with that change.

May 19: SPD votes in Parliament to support Hitler’s foreign policy

June 19: SPD elects new Executive Committee, removing Jews from national leadership.

That seems a tad unfair to SPD, at least based on what Wikipedia says

After the passing of the Enabling Act, dozens of SPD deputies were arrested, and several more fled into exile. Most of the leadership settled in Prague. Those that remained tried their best to appease the Nazi Party. On 19 May, the few SPD deputies who had not been jailed or fled into exile voted in favour of Hitler's foreign policy statement, in which he declared his willingness to renounce all offensive weapons if other countries followed suit. They also publicly distanced themselves from their brethren abroad who condemned Hitler's tactics.

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abbotsbury 5 points 3 years ago

I wouldn’t think it changes the meaning, socialists being a wider grouping

isn't that the point? Communists are a smaller group and thus easier to otherize, so first they came for them, and then socialists.

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Kusimulkku 1 point 3 years ago

I think the point was that "first they came for these leftists I didn't care about". But I guess communists is more poignant. From what I saw, he seems to have used different groups depending on who and when he was talking.

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Shinhoshi 4 points 3 years ago
Aside

I thought the original had both, starting with communists but had socialists later on.

Your version mentions “social democrats” instead, which is interesting. Given your site says there was modifications, I wonder if “socialists” does authentically appear in one…

Definitely agree though, that lack of “communists” there immediately stood out to me too.

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wishthane 1 point 3 years ago

Do you not consider socialism a path to communism, as a stateless, classless society?

I don't at all see how changing it to "socialist" would be any kind of erasure of communists, one leads to another. You'd have to think that "communism" is something else entirely.

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BeautifulMind 44 points 3 years ago

It could happen here

It is already happening here. The parallels between modern USA and 1920s Weimar Germany are stark. Some of the people doing it here are barely bothering to translate from the original German, FFS

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crapwittyname 39 points 3 years ago

It's so tiring though. Giving a fuck about everything all the time, for years and years. I never understood how people could be apathetic in the face of such injustice. But now I'm living it and I'm starting to sympathise.

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Daevan 12 points 3 years ago

It's when you realize you really have no control. For me the only thing that caring about everything does Is making me sad and anxious so why I have to expose myself to everything? For the First Time in my Life this week I've blocked every local/world news instances and filtered the Word "musk". I already feel the good vibes coming back

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OrnateLuna 10 points 3 years ago

It's a lot about moderation and focusing on things that you could help with. If there is a protests or something like that happening near you then go ahead and participate but try not to consume a lot of hate that is happening outside of your bubble. Be aware sure but don't let it consume you

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archiotterpup 3 points 3 years ago

I heard somewhere it's like have hundreds of tabs open in a browser. Sure, there are interesting links but it quickly becomes overwhelming. It's okay to close only but a few tabs that are important to you and focus on those. It prevents that kind of burn out and apathy.

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horsey 39 points 3 years ago

Here, it seems a conscious tactic of the bourgeoisie and political class is to make life so difficult that we don’t have time to worry about anyone else. Keep the population financially screwed while also arguing about identity politics, and people barely have time to confront serious economic and political issues or even be aware of them. Huge amounts of people live 1-2 paychecks from being homeless, any medical emergency is potentially a devastating financial emergency, and so on.

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obinice 34 points 3 years ago

Heck, look at the USA. They already have Concentration Camps for immigrants and those requesting asylum, where they separate parents from children, treat them like inhuman scum, keep them incarcerated in cruel conditions for as long as they like without basic rights.

They call it something different to whitewash it, Detention Centres or such, but they're camps in which they concentrate and persecute these undesirables.

Clearly not exactly the same as the camps of organised death we associate most readily with the concept, but still following the same evil fascist playbook nonetheless.

Heck, look at the many horrible concentration camps the USA ran to round up innocent people of Japanese decent during WWII, families, children... A despicable act of racism hidden under the thin guise of protecting the nation (modern Detention Centres, anyone?). You can ask George Takei what his opinion of those camps is. He was forced into one as a child.

I'm sure it happens all over the place, in many different ways, in many countries. Back to the USA for a moment for example, their entire prison system is a for-profit slave labour money-making enterprise, in which the system is incentivised to lock up as many people as possible (especially racial undesirables), keep them locked up, and ensure that those who do manage to leave are as likely as possible to fall victim of the system and return to prison, so that they can be kept as slaves.

And wouldn't you know it, the USA is the 6th most incarcerated country in the world per capita, rubbing shoulders not with other modern western nations, but with Cuba, Turkmenistan, and Rwanda. What a coincidence.

So yes, lots of very evil stuff happens in our nations under our noses (not just the USA by any means, they just stand out because they pretend to be the biggest beacon of all that is good and right in the world).

None of which is a big secret either (the state just won't teach it in schools or call attention to it), but even though the information is out there, enough of us are apathetic to it all that nothing is done about it 😟

A few quick sources/jumping off points:

https://www.statista.com/...

https://www.ushistory.org/us/51e.asp

(Note: I didn't really touch upon the deep rooted racism that runs though the US legal system, but it's very prevalent, and understandably difficult to separate from the topic of modern slavery in the US prison system, as these links will attest.)

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/...

https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/...

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givesomefucks 21 points 3 years ago

They already have Concentration Camps for immigrants and those requesting asylum, where they separate parents from children, treat them like inhuman scum, keep them incarcerated in cruel conditions for as long as they like without basic rights.

The nazis got the idea for concentration camps from America's treatment of Native children. And their goal was how we segregated minorities...

The mass killing didn't really start until Germany realized they might lose the war.

Meaning this isn't a new problem, it's us backsliding. Fighting fascism is never over, they'll keep trying decades from now

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Gargantu8 5 points 3 years ago
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MindSkipperBro12 -2 points 3 years ago

God bless American Exceptionalism 🇺🇸🫡

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tdawg 28 points 3 years ago

I know people who have moved to Florida and away from Florida since DeSantos started getting popular. It's shocking to see how true this is in real time. The people moving to Florida don't really care or even think the issue is real. In fact most of them think it's overblown or say something like "it's not like that here in the city. We're multicultural" like that somehow exonerates what's happening

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DragonTypeWyvern 13 points 3 years ago

Orlando's been spamming out ads begging gay people to come visit.

Real "We promise we won't let Ron genocide you :(" vibes

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ZhaoYadang 26 points 3 years ago

Everyone should read Ian Kershaw’s two-volume biography of Hitler if you really want to be scared. The volumes are titled “Hubris” and “Nemesis.” Once you realize how goddamned ordinary Hitler was, you start seeing guys like him everywhere. As soon as the correct circumstances present themselves, we’re fucked.

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FlashMobOfOne 23 points 3 years ago

Not just apathetic.

Apathetic and functionally powerless.

One note though, there are some great books about the many assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler, some of which were perpetrated by regular citizens. There are also great books about citizen resistance figures. Those stories aren't talked about enough. There were regular people who DID try to stop the Nazis.

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DJKJuicy 13 points 3 years ago

Not really though...if young voters turned out en masse, they could replace all politicians with people they actually wanted. But they won't, because "I'm not into politics" or "My vote doesn't count".

So it's pretty much apathy...they have the power.

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DeanFogg 12 points 3 years ago

Think about how many dipshits are going to write in Trump even if he's not viable. Then think about staying home and not voting

That should really apply to all elections. Go vote people

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FlashMobOfOne -4 points 3 years ago

If you're a wage earner there is no functional difference between the Democratic and Republican Party.

We're going on 15 years of a seven-dollar federal minimum wage. Health care and education are unaffordable for most. Soon housing is going to be unaffordable for most.

I know it's popular to blame the voters, but I imagine the decision between missing a day's pay and voting for someone you know isn't going to lift a finger to help you is, unfortunately, a very easy one. (At least for the 40,000,000 that can't afford a sudden $400 expense without going further into debt.)

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mushroom 12 points 3 years ago

This is absolute horse shit. There is a stark difference between the two parties. One has a president in the white house who is about to join the picket line for the UAW strike, who made sure the rail union got what they asked for, who tried to wipe out college debt for millions of Americans (that was fought and blocked by Republicans because...reasons? But let's bail out the next corp or mega bank when they do some shady subprime shit).

Functionally, republicans are doing everything they can to directly or indirectly fuck over wage earners and the Dems, while not perfect by any stretch, are at least attempting meaningful changes. Hell, a few republican states are peeling back child labor laws. They are also torpedoing the education system and running off good teachers.

Name a Democrat run state that's banned books, or passed ridiculous laws for teachers to follow.

It's not even close. And pretending it is causes apathy. Or gives apathy an excuse to grow.

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DJKJuicy 4 points 3 years ago

There are politicians, right now, today, that support raising the minimum wage and then tying it to the CPI, expanding Medicare for all, and making college taxpayer funded.

But they don't get enough votes, because...

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dragonflyteaparty 1 point 3 years ago

Yeah, tell that to all of the LGBTQ populace, those who want abortion rights, parents who don't want books banned. No, they are not the same. Yes, democrats do help people. Yes, they do try.

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Shinhoshi 8 points 3 years ago

My vote doesn’t count

Maybe because it doesn’t? Can we at least have a candidate that pretends to do good things for once? Of course not, the DNC openly admitted to rigging primaries against even Sanders.

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dragonflyteaparty 2 points 3 years ago

As much as there are things that suck about not having a public institution hold our primaries, it doesn't mean that your vote doesn't matter and it certainly doesn't only pertain to the presidency.

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Karyoplasma 4 points 3 years ago

Funny that you say voters had the power when the votes for the NSDAP were on the decline until Hitler basically abolished free elections.

NSDAP lost 4.2% of votes in the last free election on November 6th 1932.

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Killing_Spark 3 points 3 years ago

Damn my reflex was to say that that is bullshit but the USA actually has a pretty stable demographic curve. Many countries in Europe face the problem that the old voters easily outnumber the young.

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FlashMobOfOne -3 points 3 years ago

Not really though…if young voters turned out en masse, they could replace all politicians with people they actually wanted. But they won’t, because “I’m not into politics” or “My vote doesn’t count”.

Voters did turn out en masse.

They were even promised $2000 checks if they turned out in Georgia. The Dems immediately changed the messaging and sent out $1400 instead when they won. (It went from $2000 checks to "finish the job".) They wouldn't even gives us back another $600 of our own money when they absolutely had the power to do it.

They've found 100+ billion for another country's war, though.

That's why people don't vote. It's not apathy. It's the knowledge that missing a badly-needed day's pay isn't worth the time it takes to pull the lever.

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LwL 5 points 3 years ago

...aren't mail-in ballots a thing in the US as well? That way you don't have to miss anything even with the assbackwards system of election day not being on a day where almost no one has to work, and the other assbackwards system of no mandatory paid time off.

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FlashMobOfOne -2 points 3 years ago

Depends on locality. If it were a federal thing If agree with you.

Also voting is designed to be inaccessible and as inconvenient as possible, and that's legal sadly.

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dragonflyteaparty 1 point 3 years ago

So you're saying they had complete control to do anything they wanted? There was zero Republican involvement whatsoever?

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abbotsbury 3 points 3 years ago

Any recommendations?

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JokeDeity 13 points 3 years ago

And America has no shortage of either.

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can 13 points 3 years ago

What microblogging service is this?

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Cavemanfreak 4 points 3 years ago

And how is this a "meme"? It's just a (good) quote on a picture.

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tdawg 2 points 3 years ago

It's not. It's just Lemmy being Lemmy

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can 1 point 3 years ago

Oh I know lol

I wonder if OP is a bot

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Kahlenar 11 points 3 years ago

Those who do or do not study history are dinked to repeat it. That's the issue. We study history, then send the military to Afghanistan. We aren't learning anything from history that is actually useful.

Kids crusaded against date memorization, and that worked. So now we know the minutemen at Lexington and Concord, the bill of rights, all these wars, we know they happened. Great Lincoln saved the union. But none of that matters. It has actually no effect on people meeting any kind of important decisions.

What we need to learn is the effects history has had on people. Like, clearly America went to war in WW1 to stop the war, and in WW2 to do something, and America's actions in WW2 are justified and all, but every single person who got shot in WW2 had a really bad time. Wars are to often taught from the end, America beat the Sioux, or the Mexicans, to form states out of their land and the we are looking at those states and they're nice places now. But every war has it's losers, they're the ones who get shot. They're the perspective we never get taught. Even a short war like the Bismarck German unification gets the facts taught but skips on the pain. But people get shot and it really really sucks.

It should only be with a heavy heart that we go to war, because even a just war will be nothing but awful and everyone should know that.

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tacosplease 8 points 3 years ago

Had Hitler won, we'd be teaching WWII history like "good thing we got all those Jews under control right before they were going to destroy us".

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Shinhoshi 7 points 3 years ago

Absolutely not, the last stage of genocide is denial.

Is the US population outright saying those things, or are they downplaying the idea they ever committed genocides against most of its indigenous tribes?

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Estiar 3 points 3 years ago

I disagree. For ideologies like that, there always would have to be an enemy. I think they would teach that the Jews went into hiding and are still exercising their "international jewery". After all, there's no plot to begin with, so the same rhetoric could be useful before and after mass genocide. It's not a pretty alternative history, and I think it would affect other minorities too

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thewut -2 points 3 years ago
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snek 2 points 3 years ago

Feels like the far right populists read history and want to repeat it on purpose. Why? Because it worked. Now with the internet, it's far more efficient than Hitler's efficient Nazi Germany.

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AngryCommieKender 1 point 3 years ago

Wilson fucked up everything. We unironically would have been much better off with Teddy at the helm

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OrteilGenou 2 points 3 years ago

What do you mean by unironically in this context?

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AngryCommieKender 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 3784712 3786235 3792929 3810859, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
fne8w2ah 10 points 3 years ago

The sheer brilliance of Sacha Baron Cohen cannot be underestimated.

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cypherpunks -4 points 3 years ago path: 0 3800720 3804599, hotness: undefined, score: -4, children: 1
SpiderShoeCult 9 points 3 years ago

Just to present more info on the source there, for anybody else glancing over this comment.

"MintPress News (MPN) is an American far-left[1] news website founded and edited by Mnar Adley (née Muhawesh) which was launched in January 2012[2] and also publishes the MintCast podcast. It covers political, economic, foreign affairs and environmental issues. Editorially, MintPress News supports Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, and the governments of Russia, Iran, and Syria.[3][4] It opposes the governments of Israel and Saudi Arabia,[5] and reports geopolitical events from an anti-Western perspective.[6] In one contentious article, MintPress News falsely asserted that the Ghouta chemical attack in Syria was perpetrated by rebel groups rather than by the Syrian government.[4]"

Source

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feedum_sneedson 10 points 3 years ago

He's right, that isn't very funny. I guess he's earned a few unfunny sentences over the years, though.

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captainlezbian 9 points 3 years ago

One of the great things about his comedy has always been that he doesn’t go up to people to mock them, he presents people with opportunities to make complete fools of themselves

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Norgur 8 points 3 years ago

That's true. All too true.

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towerful 10 points 3 years ago

Sacha Baron Cohen plays a lot of idiot characters. But he is very observant, witty, smart and has a very dry sense of humour.
I'd hate to have an argument with him.

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cmbabul 4 points 3 years ago

Those are the qualities that make the characters he plays so great and the performances so smart.

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kitonthenet 7 points 3 years ago

How many times will we need to Learn this lesson? If we look even in recent history, even in the US, we can see while certain positions of power do hold lots of it, they can’t control all of society all at once, the moods of society more or less run the show. And each of us individually create those moods. You cannot fix e.g. climate change by using less plastic, but using less plastic can affect your mood and the mood of those around you for good and productive causes, and anyone who tries to rob you of that should be met with suspicion and scorn

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m3t00 4 points 3 years ago

truth. 2016 election was a demonstration. remember chatting with pole workers about low turnout. party gerrymandering is done by state level reps elected in off-year elections

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darq 3 points 3 years ago

Could? Is.

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archiotterpup 3 points 3 years ago

Folks, it HAS happened here. The Japanese Internment Camps were just a gas chamber away from Concentration Camps.

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Heywood 7 points 3 years ago

Hold up. The internment camps were a travesty and shocking by American standards - but can hardly be compared to the Nazi camps. The Japanese were paid for work, had schools, raised their own livestock and crops, some were even allowed to leave for college. They were closer to American prisons in terms of conditions.

It was un-Constitutional and "un-American" as hell, but they were hardly the American Auschwitz.

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Hazdaz 2 points 3 years ago

Apathy is one of the GOP's greatest tools.

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ristoril_zip 2 points 3 years ago

if there are 9 normal people at a dinner table and a proud open Nazi is welcomed to sit down with them, there are 10 Nazis at that dinner table.

I know a lot of people in this thread are talking about systems, which are also important. But individuals and small groups can't affect systems. They can affect their neighbors and communities.

We can only fix global warming or massive pollution by large collective action like voting for people who will break up monopolies and set national policy. But we can make our communities better by shunning racists and bigots and making sure they don't achieve positions of power. Both are important.

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Shinhoshi -1 points 3 years ago

by large collective action

Good, I like where you’re going with this…

like voting

Darn, you were so close, too…

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MindSkipperBro12 -6 points 3 years ago

If there’s 9 Nazis at a table and one normal person joins, does that mean there’s 10 normal people? Trying to figure out the values and worth between the normal and the nazi.

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drre 9 points 3 years ago

no there are ten nazis. someone sitting willingly at a table full of nazis is, well, a nazi

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captainlezbian 4 points 3 years ago

The difference is willingness to tolerate bigotry and go along with it. In the third Reich there was a comparatively small portion of people who were hardcore committed Nazis, there were a lot more people who simply didn’t resist, who did what was best for their career or family or whatever and either participated or didn’t fight the regime. Maybe they thought the Nazis were bad, but so were the communists, socialists, etc that were fighting them.

For a good modern example look at 4chan. It’s generally associated with Nazis. Why? Because there were several Nazis and they weren’t being kicked out or resisted against etc. Eventually the decent folks decided it was a hellhole or at least carefully curated where they engaged in it.

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ada 1 point 3 years ago

If there’s 9 Nazis at a table and one normal person joins, does that mean there’s 10 normal people?

That's how the Nazis will spin it, yeah...

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yournamehere 0 points 3 years ago

centrism right?

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DavidGarcia -1 points 3 years ago

apathetic and also pushovers. you only get to that point if everyone is keeping their heads down in the face of overreach

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Jakdracula -3 points 3 years ago

Hey, most Nazis were born and raised as Christian too.

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Grayox 1 point 3 years ago

Wolves in sheep's clothing.

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Shinhoshi 0 points 3 years ago

Irrelevant except for weak religion-based excuses to hate on Jews

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DeanFogg -4 points 3 years ago

Simple math

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Duamerthrax 3 points 3 years ago

Say what you mean.

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thewut -4 points 3 years ago
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Shinhoshi 0 points 3 years ago
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thewut 0 points 3 years ago
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