Over 100 Israelis have died and more than 900 were injured after rockets were fired from Gaza by Hamas militants, Israeli officials said Saturday.
The Palestinian Health Ministry said 198 were killed in Gaza and at least 1,610 were injured Saturday in retaliatory attacks from Israel.
"We are at war. We will win," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday.
The Israeli Defense Forces earlier declared "a state of alert for war," according to a statement issued by the IDF.
"Over the past hour, the Hamas terrorist organization launched massive barrages of rockets from Gaza into Israel, and its terrorist operatives have infiltrated into Israel in a number of different locations in the south," the IDF said early Saturday.
You're missing the point. Hamas brutally oppresses its own people, as does Israel's goverment. This is a predictably violent response from a violent group in retaliation against another violent group, and innocent people in both countries who just want to live their lives will suffer for it.
There are no good guys here. Israel is ultimately at fault for its treatment of Palestine, but that doesn't excuse Hamas tactics of executing civilians in their homes - tactics that will not work and will not bring anyone to their side.
This is going to be a long, shitty time for a lot of people and nothing will be solved. And that fucking sucks.
On a purely practical sense, ending the siege on Gaza would improve the lives of about 2 million people squeezed on a piece of land with a clean water crisis and no medical supplies. Israel, however, is unwilling to take such a step, and the stronger Hamas is, the less likely Israel is to compromise. The reality is grim, not because "either side" won't budge, but because the situation is becoming increasingly impossible.
I've always hated Hamas' tactics. They could have been a better resistance group, they could have not had an extremist idieology. And they could have stopped gambling with the lives of Gazans. All in all, Israel is an apartheid state and this the result of apartheid and decades of collective trauma.
It's interesting that you mentioned apartheid. Although the ANC did declare an armed struggle against the White regime, in fact their attacks were inconsequential and contributed nothing to the struggle. The game-changer was a concerted campaign to mobilise world opinion. It was sanctions and isolation that ended apartheid, not bullets.
Palestinians already tried a less extremist path. It didn't work, they are still mass imprisoned by Israel.
I 100% condemn attacks on non-military targets like that. I'm not trying to carry water for Israel. I just won't excuse Hamas, either.
There are no good guys in this. It's a horrible, intractable situation. And make no mistake, it's Israel's fault, due to their illegal occupation. I won't even remotely defend that. But that doesn't make any of this OK.
as they [Israel] shoot missiles directly into apartment buildings
I didn't see this part in the linked article. I do not condone Isreal's treatment of Palestinian civilians, but I haven't seen any reports like what you wrote. Do you have an additional source so I can read up?
No. It will invariably be called terrorism.
ANC carried out terror bombings intentionally targeting civilians too after first trying non-violent protests, then trying sabotage, then targeting military, and not getting results. And they were called terrorists as well despite certainly doing far less harm than the regime they fought, and ignoring that while civilian, the majority of their victims were voters who had an active role in continuing to vote in the regimes engaged in the oppression.
The only way to stop being labeled terrorist is to win the conflict, like the ANC.
This is not a criticism of the ANC, btw.. On a personal level I think some of their actions were deplorable, but I also think that it is fundamentally not up to any of us to judge the armed resistance of the oppressed unless we are actively fighting that oppression in better, more effective ways.
In other words: Personally, I think that anyone who is not personally at a minimum engaged in efforts to end Israeli oppression that is likely to right now be achieving more than armed Palestinian resistance has no moral standing to judge their actions.
And nobody here is.
Mandela disagreed with you, and maintained to the end that it was essential in mobilizing support. They got little attention until they ramped up.
The engaged in non-violent resistance against increasingly oppressive laws for decades with no support or attention, and achieving nothing. In fact Apartheid was put in place during, not before, that non-violent resistance, that was how little it achieved. The sanctions first started after ANC and others raised the stakes and violence started rattling the regime into escalation that caught attention.
However, whether or not it was effective is irrelevant to the argument I made, which is that unless you provide a better solution, you're not in a position to judge how they fight back.
Because people don't understand that violence is necessary at times.
When you're violently oppressed for decades while exhausting all peaceful options it gets to a point where you only have violent options left. Especially when the actual govt does fuck all to help you.
I agree in general but not THIS. Kidnapping, raping, and murdering random civilians, besides being monstrously evil, does not accomplish any goals.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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Iranian goverment is celebrating the attack they backed.
Thousands will die from their weapons. Thousands more will be permanently disfigured or injured. Hamas put their HQ right in downtown, so when it got predictably destroyed, it hurt a bunch of civilians.
Not surprising since the Saudis and Israel were finally starting to make up, which Iran hates. But sad nonetheless. I hope the Israelis and Palestinians can come to an agreement, and that Iran gets a better, more peaceful government. But I doubt it.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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No good guys here. Hamas doesn't seem to serve the Palestinians, they serve their own Jihadist agenda. Isreal remains a fascist apartheid regime which has been systematically killing all Palestinians in a genocide for decades.
There's action and reaction here.
And reaction and reaction and reaction...going back 5,000 years
Gaza is a massive prison and they don't have anything to loose anymore. Will Israel become the exterminator? We will see.
Murder of civilians celebrated by the whole of their society is not justified by reaction. I suggest you look at some other societies which react to genocidal crimes, for some reference. Most of them don't do that.
Nah, this was the case with Palestinian Arabs all along. Since their "throw all Jews into the sea" till now.
ANC bombed civilians and their attacks were celebrated by many. The IRA did, and were celebrated by many. ETA did, and were celebrated by many. It is common, and suggesting it's unique to Palestinians is pure racism.
EDIT: Ah, looked at one of your other comments that were equally awful. Block incoming.
I don't think you know the difference between collateral damage and massacre. Or maybe you know that, just pretend to be a moron. I can accept your pretense, but not your point.
Your interpretation is fine. I'll skip your "suggestions", thanks.
I wouldn't really expect them to idly stand by and let an organization whose charter is essentially "Death to Israel, death to all Jews" to come into power
There cannot be a peaceful coexistence between Israel and Hamas because (and their charter has a section explicitly devoted to this) Hamas does not want it, when they talk of "ending the occupation", they don't just mean of Palestine
Funny thing. If we used that logic then we'd all be dead. No war would ever end but with the complete annihilation of the loser and with nukes that means everyone.
Furthermore, PR line or not, Hamas was elected. Interfering to stop them from taking power is an act of war itself. Justify it how you want but Israel hasn't given peace a chance in a long time.
When one side very explicitly states "there will be no peace, we will keep fighting until one of us is completely wiped out", I struggle to see why the world should not oblige, and while the state of Israel is definitely not perfect it's not very difficult for me lean towards the side that's still managing to perform roof knocking over the complete and utter barbarism displayed by the Hamas terrorists over the fast few days
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
"Hey so I know we've been doing a genocide but look, we're being really nice when we bomb innocent civilians homes by letting them know we're going to bomb their homes."
This (a) doesn't excuse literal genocide and (b) is just a "nicer" version of exactly the thing they're appalled Hamas just did. You don't get to cry foul if you're going to retaliate with a tit for tat play.
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There is only one country whose national religion is Judaism, but it is practiced in plenty of other places.
More to the point, the fact that there are other Islamic countries is of little comfort to the Palestinians. They do not live in those countries and those countries do not want them.
Some of those countries do provide varying levels of support for Hamas because they (accurately) see it as an indirect way to attack Israel.
By the same token, any blame you want to place on Israel for this conflict reflects on Isreal as whole, and not every individual living within it.
The whole reason why other Islamic (Arab) countries don't accept Palestinians is so that they retain their "rightful" claim to lands annexed by Israel from the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
The Palestinians did it to themselves that they couldn't live peacefully with the Israelis back then and should accept the outcome of the war as a failing of the Arab League and their resistance.
Besides, you can't deny that the Arab world owes some debt to the Palestinians to accept their refuge since it was the Arab League that lost all those attempts to retake Palestinian lands (amongst other things), and yet they don't do it.
The religious aspect of all this is just secondary to the secular reason.
Dude. The Palestinians only ever reacted in that time frame. It was the Jewish settlers that attacked the British soldiers and then turned on the Palestinians. Go ask a British military historian.
Well by another definition they all have the same core religious view. Just as any other religion that perpetuates collective hysteria and war. Humanity is better without any kind of organized dogma. Let's jettison the stone age thinking.
If all they did was argue for jettisoning stone age thinking, I'd have been all for that. But instead the person I replied to engaged in just another variant of the same stone age thinking.
As somebody else pointed out, reducing the people in Palestine to Muslims and they treating all people who happen to be muslims as if they're as the same, is pure unadulterated racism of the worst, most disgusting, kind.
How does it feel to be the exact caricature Hamas shows the children of slaughtered families for recruitment?
There was a joke on Rick and Morty that Rick got the Palestinians and the Israelis to sign the treaty of "peace plan that works if you think about it a bit".
I am sure every commenter has one of those plans in their back pocket that would work if implemented. The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
The sad thing is that the people dying for this usually aren't anywhere remotely near the level of the people that have power to lose or keep. Dying for the sake of rich assholes all the way down
Yeah, there's another quote in Rick and Morty: "Everyone is trying to take over the galaxy, the trick is to be left alone by whoever wins."
I think it's sad how Gaza is apparently blockaded by Israel. I'm not sure if the people there are literally being held captive, but if that's the case then I can definitely understand their frustration and the lengths they would go to in order to fight back.
If they're allowed to leave, I think they should've just done that. It's never easy, but unfortunately would be the best option in an imperfect world.
Yeah let's pretend Egypt doesn't exists
The only way that is solve is from the outside.
Which means treating Israel as Appartheid South Africa was treated, and Hamas as a terrorist group.
However only the last part is done, so the result is every day in Palestine people are born who will live under the boot of Israel and eventually feel they have nothing to loose because of Israel and Israelis, and join Hamas to fight the oppressor, because it's only way to do something with a lifetime of anger and because even being part of a Hamas deemed a terrorist organisation all over the world and limited in their action, status and wealth by it, is still better than a "nothing to loose" situation.
The refusal of Europe and the US to also force the one with the most to lose - Israel - to pull back the boot that's making all those "nothing to loose, desperate and angry" alongside their attempt at making Hamas an unappeling option is what has kept the cycle of violence going.
The blood is mainly on the hands of the US leaders and a number of European leaders because they're the only ones who could stop this (since they're the only ones with the power to stop both sides at the same time, which is the only way to sort this out) and they most certainly have the kind of bright and well informed advisers who would have pointed it out to them, and instead have endorsed Israel's strategy of "tire the Palestineans till they give up and leave", in other words, endorsing genocide.
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This. Peace cannot come unless the civilians on both sides are loudly and forcefully willing to die rather than kill civilians on the other side. The problems can only be solved on an individual level.
The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
This is by design. I guarantee Israeli money gets funneled to Hamas so Hamas can in turn attack Israel then Israel retaliates with far far more force as usual, so on so forth.
The easiest way to get rid of Palestine when you have every major super powers backing is to simply cause then to attack you and win a war of attrition, subjugation, annexation, absorbtion and either erasure or outright propagandizing the entire thing. Like the US and Canada have done with native Americans.
Other than the fact that Hamas was explicitly created by Israel to feed a secular v non secular Palestinian fued? They deny it but everyone knows they're lying because the Israeli army quite literally stepped aside or left when they showed up.
My knowledge on Hamas amounts to the first half of their Wikipedia page so I'd love to learn some more about their. While I can Google their name I'm going to get some weirdly biased shit that will probably contradict itself quickly. Got any suggestions for sources I can read up on to learn more about Israel's influence there?
You probably talking about this article
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
Well there's the fact that Israel legitimately got Hamas started in the first place because it hampered the Palestinian left in their efforts to combat the settlements.
There absolutely were resistance groups all the way up to 1960 boss, they just got called terrorists at that point. Less bloodletting? The native school system in Canada has hundreds of thousands of deaths on it's hands and mass graves get discovered like legit every year.
There absolutely is a systemic attempt to exterminate native populations in the United States, go to a reservation and you'll change your tune real real fuckin fast.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...
Educate yourself.
This one is a particularly gripping episode in history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nez_Perce_War
I find the timing of this suspicious, given there's rumours the negotiations between the US and SA are in their final stages.
If SA is about to throw Palestine under the bus, as is rumoured, that could explain the timing.
But how would this attack do anything to discourage Saudi Arabia from signing that treaty?
Ah, I see what you mean, but I don't think I agree. There's no relevant party that is opposed to this attack, opposed to the treaty, and important enough to justify the risk of getting caught.
Iran trying to get the first move advantage in what they'd deam the inevitable opening of yet another proxy war with KSA
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
It's a violent revolution to extinction. All the more political capital for the Netanyahu government to rapidly encroach.
Yeah poor Hamas, he had no choice but to murder civilians
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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I have much higher hopes for the UN council assigned to this issue and any UN Task Forces deployed in the future.
LOL! You really don't understand anything about how the world works, do you?
I believe Israel mostly caused this issue on their own by the apartheid oppression of Palestinians, I think this outcome and many other attrocities would have been completely avoided in the timeline where Rabin wasn’t assassinated
Conveniently skipping over Ariel Sharon there aren't you? You know that time when Israel removed all settlements and ended the occupation of part of Palestine as a goodwill gesture? What happened after that? Something for you to look into.
Yes the UN can help in being observers after a ceasefire is agreed upon.
Does it look like there's an imminent ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas?
Do you think there's are UN citizens that sign up for the UN military and go through training to serve on UN missions? Not how it is.
The way it really works is the UN asks actual countries to provide soldiers for these missions. So which countries do you think are going to send their soldiers to fucking Gaza based on a promise by Hamas not to attack them?
And UN observers don't fight wars. They just report to both parties of the ceasefire the activities of the other. If either side takes military action the observers leave. Hamas fires rockets at Israel every week. Just that the Iron Dome takes them out and you don't hear about it. But if you're the leader of a country are you going to send your soldiers somewhere there will constantly be rockets flying over them with the potential that if the Iron Dome might clip on and divert it into your soldiers?
How can Hamas even think they have an iota of a chance against a military power like Israel?
It makes no sense.
It makes sense, but not the way you think. They know they are going to lose. They know they are going to suffer greater retaliation. But they will have to endure it. And they know many of them will die because of it. They were ready to face the consequences.
I don't think this campaign is against the Israeli government. It's a strategic move targeted towards the illegal Israeli settlers and those who dare to encroach into the disputed Palestinian land! - to instill traumatic fear. It's a warning message to these people, even though the have the best military and the best surveillance techs, the government can't protect them. A stern message to them: If you dare to take this land from us, one day we will come to take it back from you, even your life, at the time you least expected and every efforts you put before will be in vain.
You're forgetting the key aspect -- they want Israel to attack. These are hardcore committed militants. They want to kill their enemies or die trying. They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
By attacking Israel, they know they're going to prompt a vicious counter attack that will kill and maim a lot of Palestinians. That's good from the point of view of the Palestinian militants. More people who lose their loved ones to Israeli attacks means more angry people wanting to lash out. That means more of them will hate Israel even more, and be even more willing to risk their lives to try to destroy Israel.
It's also a gift to Netanyahu and the right-wingers in Israel. They want the Israeli population to be scared and angry, because when they're scared and angry they support the right-wingers. This instantly solves all the political and legal problems that Netanyahu had.
This is the same strategy that Osama bin Laden used with the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, and it worked perfectly. He knew that the US would flip out and overreact and kill hundreds of thousands of people as a result. He hoped they'd attack Saudi Arabia because his biggest conflict was not with the US, but with the government there. Instead the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was almost as good. It drove recruitment for al Qaeda, and later for the Islamic State.
Not surprisingly, I do agree with your perspective: They want Israeli to attack. They want to chance change the status quo.
They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
When you say 'many Palestinians', I would say those are the ones who live in the West Bank, controlled by Fatah. Fatah made acceptable deals with Israeli, and somenow their live are getting better, more survivable. But Hamas doesnt agree with these deals. They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period. And the people of Gaza supported this POV and they elected Hamas in the first place, which means they are ready to suffer the consequences when giving the support.
Palestinians are divided into two fractions. In some ways, the attack could be an attempt to reunite and change it back to one.
Except that these attacks weren't against the settlers (who are taking land in the west bank), it's targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages. I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
I could be wrong on that. I stand corrected if that's the case.
I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
Yes, but it's best to attack where it is least expected. Other than that, it's open to discussion/speculation. Whatever it is, it is a very well thought and executed plan where they expect great retaliation. One thing, The Hamas don't trust Fatah, and some pro-Palestin Muslim even regard Fatah as traitor. Maybe the Saudi-Israel normalisation plan got something to do with it? Maybe someone can give their input on these.
I check Ofakim, one of the affected area.
In 2010, about one-fifth of the residents were ultra-Orthodox and one third were immigrants from the former Soviet Union. Most of the rest were members and descendants of the founding generation of the immigrants who arrived in the town in the 1950s and 1960s. In addition, there are small communities of Ethiopian Jews and Palestinians originally from the Gaza Strip who were resettled in Israel after collaborating with Israeli authorities.[5][6]
According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, Ofakim had a population of 30,662 in 2019, and the population is growing at a rate of 1.4% a year. The percentage of the share of the Arab Palestinian population of Ofakim is very small and about 0.7%.[1]
You're right on that. They population has been there since the 50s.
It still makes no sense to me from that perspective. Shouldn't they, of all people, understand that trying to frighten people into submission can instead embolden them? Israel's brutal actions against Palestinians didn't crumble Hamas. It created more support for it.
What do they think will happen now? They've attacked and kidnapped civilians. Even people sympathetic to the Palestinians plight are horrified at this.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them, brutalized civilians, and actually given Israel partial justification for their response. This is the first time in my adult life that I've seen such violence against Israel.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them
Sure, until Israel overreacts and starts a war that kills tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. Then people's sympathies will go back to the underdog in the fight, which is the Palestinians.
Yay…?
A combination of this and a religion that brainwashed them into thinking that if they die while trying to murder other people that they will go to paradise and have a bunch of little girls as wives.
Are they a victim of bullying when their official policy is the destruction of their neighbors culture?
They are a victim of bullying when they've been under decades of illegal occupation. Hamas is an awful organization, but it was only formed as a result of ongoing brutal oppression. When you keep punching someone in the face, sooner or later they'll start punching back, and sometimes they'll fight dirty. That doesn't make them good, but the bully is still the one who kicked things off in the first place and the one who should be first and foremost held responsible for the situation they created.
Hamas individual victims get my full sympathy; they're victims of both Hamas and Israel. Israel as a state does not - without their brutal oppression, extensive war crimes, and apartheid regime, there wouldn't be any Hamas in the first place.
What if the bully went up to someone and said "I'm going to fucking kill you" and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area? Only Palestine and Hamas before now were the ones saying the Jews deserved death AND acted upon it multiple times. I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems. I'm sure those thai workers and rave tourists, massacred, raped, killed and kidnapped has a lot to do with the fucking situation between Israel and Hamas/Palestine. Israel isn't clean, but in 1 day and 1 act became the cleaner of the 2 in non Arab public perception.
When you say 'destroying their neighbors culture' - are you talking about Israel or Palestine?
Clearly Palestine. They're the ones with a government they elected that literally put "destroy all Jews" in their founding charter.
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Firstly, see “The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel”, David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012:
Not even the Israeli government or the Israeli Supreme Court agree with you that Israel has a legitimate claim to the territories beyond their internationally recognised borders. Maybe somebody here is talking about the entirety of Israel, but I am not, nor have I ever. If Israel were to withdraw to their borders, and Palestinian attacks still continue, then there'd be at least room for discussion of blame.
Until then, as long as Israel itself legally recognizes that it is an occupying power, there is none.
Secondly, people's experience of being oppressed does not recognize law. Irrespective of who has ownership of what, Israel is engaged in treating Gaza in particular as an Apartheid-style bantustan, and is committing crimes against humanity by doing so.
Whether or not you agree with the legal position on that, when someone places people in those conditions, then it is entirely on them when they hit back.
Blaming people for resisting gross abuse because you don't like how they do it when you've put them in a situation where they have no realistic opportunity to fight clean is victim-blaming.
Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Nice try. I've not argued it is okay for anyone. I've argued in some threads that unless you've provided a better alternative (and not suggested it; actually tried to make it come to pass), then like the rest of us you're not in a moral position to judge people for taking desperate steps to try to fight back.
That doesn't mean not feeling for the victims, because they had no power to end this either. It doesn't mean not thinking it's a horrible situation. It doesn't mean you can't get angry. It means resisting the urge to assign the blame to a people the vast majority of whom have been born into effective bondage under an apartheid regime for taking desperate and irrational actions to try to end a gross abuse they have no realistic power to change.
They are desperate, frustrated, angry... They are human.
Neutrally looked at, a couple of french farmers and craftmen had no chance against the french military of 1789. But they where pushed to a point where they believed doing nothing is worse than dying trying. By chance they actually stormed the Bastille and kickstarzed a very dark chapter in french history.
It's not like the position of the people of Gaza is going to improve...
Exactly. The same thing happened before again and again. The result was always the same. Death and misery for the people in Gaza.
The whole region needs to be put under supervision by an international committee and bring Israel's borders back to its original limits and give back the right to the people of Gaza and West Bank the right to their own land and allow them to exchange with other nations.
bring Israel’s borders back to its original limits
Which the Arabs voted against in the first place. They never wanted a Jewish state there and their rhetoric would suggest they still don't. The only difference is now there is one, and there has been for most of a century.
They're genocidal lunatics covering their hatred in colors of justice and victimhood
They don't care about an actual chance, they just follow the directions their masters in tehran give them because they'll happily make themselves dogs if it means they get to go full turner diaries wet dream mode.
They are targeting civilians not the military. They want to cause so much pain and suffering the Israeli people will push their govt to cede demands of Hamas to stop the fighting, or emmigrate somewhere else
They have been pushed into a corner and kept on getting squeezed, so probably feel they have no other options (and might very well be right in light of what has happenned in the last decade).
Had Israel stopped expanding "colonates" and taking palestinian land, I doubt the likes of Hamas would have the internal support and manpower to do what they just did, but over the last several decades Bibi and his predecessors have been just dubbling down and announcing ever more anexation of land.
The massive difference in military power is also probably the reason for the kidnappings: I suspect it's a "strategy" to try and get the Israeli authorities to not just bomb the whole of Gaza.
Whilst I disagree with their methods I can see how over 70 years, given the trend in israeli politics and the lack of genuine and effective pushback from the international community against appartheid in Israel and the occupation, so many Palestineans have come to believe they have no other options than this kind of thing and personally I actually see no other option (even this they're doing now is not really an option, more like a lashing out of the desperate).
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (to much hate by now, too many assholes on both side whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US' and Europe's treatement of Israel as if it's a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it's more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all, effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie and the Palace Du Eliseé.
It's a shame because western countries were starting to recognize the apartheid situation in Israel and were starting to criticize it. I think had things gone a bit longer there would have been an intervention.
In any case, this whole thing is just sad. So many innocent lives are destroyed on both sides. And I sincerely think Israel, their government and the Jewish extremists are the root cause.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Fuck islamist terrorism. Fuck Hamas.
Nor really. A large part of Natenyahu's platform is security. "Keep me in power and I will protect you". He has failed in this spectacularly, and Mossads reputation will take a very significant hit. Hamas has made them look incompetent. Of course he will use this to demand more authority, but overall it is bad for him.
Somewhat, but it also undermines his "Mr. Security" image...a lot. He will assuredly blame it on the left, but when he's running against former military brass, rings hollow. Also really pulls the rug out from under his various peace accords
Are we supposed to believe Israeli intelligence missed this?
not the sort of thing that's good to wake up to. very sad
If one day someone comes to your house, the one you were born, the same house where your father was born, and his father before him. And starts killing, raping, torturing, executing, bulldozing the houses were your cousins lives, they don't let you go to your sacred places, they don't let you even move from the concentration camps and the walls they have erected.
What would you do? You fight, even if you lose you will fight, even if the world sees the injustice but simply doesn't care, you will still fight, for them you are a terrorist, but for your people you are a freedom fighter, fighting against invaders.
I would agree with this, except that afaik both groups have a legitimate historical/religious claim to the territory. Additionally, you're basically saying that Hamas is justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed people. I was sympathetic until they made the Las Vegas shooting look like a minor scuffle.
Seriously, I can sympathize with the frustration up to the point where suddenly murdering civilians is ok when "the good guys" are doing it.
Material conditions my ass, if it's wrong for one it's wrong for all.
And before any Hamaboos show their asses,
انا امريكاني فالاسطيني، جدي كن من بيتلحم،
My kin are not your shield for endorsing the same acts you hold up to demonize those you hate you Bougeyevik hypocrites.
Additionally, you're basically saying that Hamas is [justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed
The fact the Israel state contribute to the creation of those monsters, you can't expect the hate to just disappear.
What would you do?
I would not beat, rape, and murder innocent people. That seems like a low bar to clear, right? Attacking military targets and personnel might be morally justified, but certainly not what they did over the weekend.
How many of the "terrorists" (the Islamic ones, not the Judaic ones) were actually from the oppressed populations, though? There are a lottttttt of people in that region that hate the Israeli government...Not sure how many of the displaced peoples you're telling "this isn't the right way to avenge violent state oppression" are actually participating in the fighting.
He didn't tell any of the non participants any such thing... His statement obviously refers to those commiting the acts, not generalized to everyone.
That perspective does not excuse Israel's behavior or blame any victim of Israel's injustice, it simply points out the attacks are terroristic (meaning targeting civilians). Terrorists often have sympathetic reasons, but go about it in a way that is wrong.
Point taken, thanks for taking the time to lay it out.
Nah, man. If they cited all those things, or more importantly the complete stifling of Gazans' ability to prosper or flourish today, that would be one thing. What did they cite instead? The desecration of the Al-Aqsa mosque. That is more important to them than the apartheid. Fuck Hamas. They're accomplishing nothing more than the death of Palestinians and more suffering. And they just empowered the most right wing, unpopular government that Israel's ever had, one that Israelis were divided against. Hamas and the Iranian regime need to be eradicated. They are hurting any chance at Palestinian freedom and equality and right to prosperity. And they're just causing more and more every day normal Israeli/Jewish and Palestinian suffering. This Iranian regime supports the tyranny of the Syrian government over the Sunnis (and its use of chemical weapons against them), Russia's terrorist attacks on civilians in Ukraine and the invasion of that country in general, the complete undermining of the Lebanese government by Hezbollah, and the complete overthrow of the Yemeni government by a similarly tyrannical group in Yemen. And it uses of rape and sexual violence and murder against men and women protesting the death of a woman caused by the morality police and the oppression of women by the regime.
I think the only way to accomplish either a true one state democratic nation that honors Israel-Palestine as the home of Judaism or a two state solution, is boycott and divestment (because there is no way to peacefully protest and engage in civil obedience to achieve freedom and equality (they murdered a journalist and nothing came of it) and there's no way to win militarily). It worked with the apartheid government in South Africa, and hopefully it will work with Israel.
Believe it or not, but the world isn't simply comprised of goodies and baddies. We don't live in a Marvel movie.
His point is that if you want international support don't go around murdering innocent people then parade their bodies around.
He didn't imply that Israel were the goodies. It's more like both sides have people being baddies.
Also, you have a lot of innocent on both sides. That's why both sides get called out for being baddies as they are hurting innocents. There's a good chance that Hamas even killed some folks who have never done anything but be sympathetic to the Palestinian plight.
Terroristic is the right description, and can also be applied to some of Israel's behavior towards Palestinians.
Hamas are absolutely headbanging murderous zealots committing a lot of atrocities right now. But if you herd people up, deprive them of basic liberties, brutalize & kill a bunch of them, and steal their land at gunpoint and then you can hardly act all shocked that a bunch of them are radicalized and go on a rampage. Doesn't matter if we're talking what Israel has done to Palestinians or what the United States did to Native Americans. Maybe the lesson to learn here, is don't do those things. But I expect that Israel will pound Gaza committing its own atrocities as payback and the same thing will happen again in another decade.
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it's bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
The Israel state was created thanks to the influence of wealthy Jews.
A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view
Until your guest started asking for more land, more control, and ultimately doesn't want yo share with you but wants the things you have.
The Jewish people who were brought to Palestine in the 40s were not being exterminated by the Palestinians. The Jewish people illegally collected guns while they were there and forced the Palestinians out of their homes and their country.
If you go a little further back in history you'll discover some pretty heavy historical claims to the land by the Jewish people. Just to be clear, I consider "historical claim" to be the most bullshit geopolitical argument in existence. I'm merely pointing out the fallacy in claiming Palestinians have claim, but Jews do not. Palestine wasn't even a country until it was established when Israel was established. It was just a bunch of nomads moving between various borders.
Just curious, if some fascists came to your house citing historical claims to your land, how much would you care about the validity of that claim? How about when they burn your house down, kill your family, and arrest you for objecting? I truly, deeply would not give a flying fuck who lived nearby my house 300 years ago.
How much further back is a "little further"? My grandmother was one of the people who fled in 1948. The place her grandparents also lived. You're talking about what 300 years ago? 400? More? Forgive me if I care very little about a claim to a land that is older than Shakespeare.
I don't care about a "historical claim" I care about the people who were living in the land and were forcebly ousted in a time frame where the people who were originally ousted are still alive.
Also they were not "nomads" you fuckin racist. My great grandparents had land, a home, a community that were all taken from them.
As a side note, if you want to spot the Press that are at least trying to be neutral, you can see how they refere to the Hamas people that inflitrated Israel:
- The neutral Press will call them something like "guerrilas" (same as, for example, they would refer to the FARC types in Colombia if they attacked a city), "militants" or "infiltrators".
- The biased Press will call them "terrorists"
I'm happy that everybody who kills people to terrify the rest into doing what they want are consistently called terrorists.
So both Hamas and the Israeli state.
As actual and clear acts of "killing people to terrify the rest do what they want", like bombing of hospitals, murdering of journalists and killing children throwing stones at the armored bulldozers razing their homes, all commited by one side, have consistently never been described as "terrorism" (even though they match the definition), it's a pretty good indication of the bias by a media outlet when they now describe the entirety of the military incursion from one side and all its participants as "terrorism" even though they refrained to call actual acts of "killing people to terrify the rest do what they want" from the other side as "acts of terror" and those who executed them as "terrorists".
The unbiased thing to do is to consistently describe all "attacks meant to incite terror for the purposed of making the rest do what you want" (such as Hamas' terrorists murdering people at a dance party, and Iraeli Army terrorists bombing hospitals and executing journalists and children) as "terror attacks" and those who executed them as "terrorists".
Israel can't be called terrorism because terrorism must be—by definition—unlawful
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Emphasis mine.
I'm sure it's as straightforward as you make it to be.
It is. You really don't think so?
The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 is a good place to start. Essentially much of Palestine was misappropriated to Ottoman bureaucrats and the Ottoman state. The Jewish National Fund purchased portions of this land and leased it to Jewish settlers who kicked the Arabs out with the cooperation of their Ottoman landlords. Legal, but unjust, and I have to imagine most of the Jewish settlers were as ignorant as the Arabs were to the fact that their land had been sold out from under them.
Israel has the iron dome to prevent something like this from happening, right? So why does the attack work this time?
Keyword is "typically". Iran has been sending rockets to Hamas for decades.
And Iran, Iran so far away
OP's headline isn't great, the rockets were only one part of todays events
At 6:29am, the Gaza Strip terrorist group launched an incursion into Israeli territory by land, sea and air as well as some 3,000 rockets within hours.. ..Armed Palestinians managed to overwhelm several Israeli communities and military bases along the border, which have stayed under their control for hours. Dozens of Israeli civilians were believed to be held captive in Kibbutz Be'eri. Israeli forces poured into the conflict zones and engaged the terrorists. Dozens of Israeli captives - including numerous women, children and elders - are believed to have been taken into the Gaza Strip.
ETA: there's the added factor that it's Saturday and a religious holiday so more people would have been asleep at home at that time, or on their way to pray/celebrate/party.
Saturation attacks are a common tactic to overwhelm air defense zones, but this isn't just that. Hamas and IJ fighters have begun ethnically cleansing border towns, literally gunning down shelters full of civilians, as well as parading the naked bodies of women they've raped and murdered, through the streets.
This is only a fraction of the attacks, and all on video btw, but I don't suggest watching them.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/...
2 minutes on duckduckgo. Plenty of other horrible stories as well.
No, but only because I don't want to have to look at them again. Go on Twitter, or any combat footage forum/sub, and they'll be there.
There is no shortage of videos of both slain IDF (It's war, so that legitimate), and terrorists attacks on civilians. I'm sure there are hundreds more clips uploaded since I stopped looking at the discussions.
What are IJ fighters? Civilians from which side?
Islamic Jihad. It's a relatively newer militant faction. All, or most, of the recent IDF military incursions into Gaza lately have been targeting their leadership and fighters.
Because the Iron Dome, like most other products of the US military industrial complex, is more of a profit seeking venture for PMCs than it is a solution to any actual combat problem
I think you're right. In 2021 only 14 died on the Israeli side with a number of Hamas missiles landing inside Gaza by accident (according to Israel). In 2022 Hamas fired about 1k rockets and it caused one Israeli death.
badly drawn maps are a major culprit. its clear many commenters are young and don't know the actual history. i'm a bit surprised by just how many pro-hamas posts ive seen. its a little disturbing. read your history. there is very little that the modern state of Israel could have done to prevent any of this. these extremists want total annihilation of israel. what can israel do against terrorists whose stated goal is to participate in a holy war which they believe is their ticket to heaven? it's an unwinnable conflict. peace talks only work if all sides actually want peace (and just disagree about how to accomplish it) every insane group of extremists across history has had to be dealt with forcefully, at some point, in some way or another, for all of human history. the japanese, germans, soviets, koreans, all needed to be dealt with, and in all cases it required overwhelming force sustained by wide coalitions over many years.
this is no different. if you are young, don't know the history, and are sitting in your room thinking there is some special concession Israel could give, that would turn this all around, its time to hit the library. The reality is that there isn't really any land in the area that would work for that. The available land that is compatible with human civilization in that part of the world, is completely full. There is no "amazon" that could be cut down to build new areas for Palestinians to live. It's a hot, arid, inhospitable part of the world, and civilization is clustered around natural rivers and mountainous locations. There's no place for anyone to go.
And then there's the ideology. Even if Israel and some broad coalition decided to invest trillions in some massive infrastructure project to make Gaza the best place in the world to live, the terrorists would still do exactly what they're doing today. The point you have to understand, is that Hamas does not care about Palestinians. Repeat that to yourself 10x and commit it to your brain forever. Islamic extremists do not care about achieving peaceful cooperation with people of other faiths and ideologies on planet earth. Nor do they even care about their own people.
People in the west are extremely soft and ignorant in some ways. They've grown up immersed in a culture of relative stability, judeo-christian ethics, etc. They have no concept that there are people out there who share none of that. They literally don't care. And the proof is all over twitter. Go watch, let it soak in.
Only a broad coalition with massive force can end this, just like every other time. otherwise its just on an endless cycle.
Great the fake map is making the rounds again
It's a poorly equipped terrorist group fighting against a full fleged national military force. If the current death toll is only 5 times higher for Hamas, they really chaught Isreal off guard with that attack.
Did you respond to the wrong comment?
Israel has been eliminating Palestine for decades
Both sides have been trying to "eliminate" each other for decades. It's just Israel is winning.
and tiny Palestine is the big bad guy here, according to you?
It generally makes no sense to talk about "good" or "bad" in international politics.
But let's look at it from this way: There is no possibility of a Palestinian victory by military means and there hasn't been in a long time. Yet, everytime there was peace process it get's rejected by Palestine and they cling to their demand of the total destruction if Israel.
At this point fighting Israel is just fighting for the sake of fighting, inflicting suffering on Israel and martyrdom.
Israel isn't going anywhere. So in a realistic sense it's on Palestine to come to the negotiation table and settle for peace (and yes, the condition are now much worse then in 1993). Or they can choose to fight a lost cause ... to the death.
Look at anither way. England gave half of Palestine to their enemies...why should Palestine have agreed to any of this in the first place? Oh that's right they didn't and this was shoved down their throats. Some would say illegally.
Palestine basically paid for what the Germans did to the Jews.
This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.
It doesn’t say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn’t say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.
The chart shows military might. It doesn’t show intent. It doesn’t show who tried to avoid bloodshed. It doesn’t show who ignited conflict after conflict.
A similar chart showing civilian deaths in WWII would show the US killed way more Nazi civilians than vice versa. Would you be arguing that the US was the bad guy in that war?
This is only true because Israel is good at stopping attacks, not because Hamas isn’t trying.
Graph "intentional attacks" targeted at civilians and you’ll get a very different picture. Personally, if someone tried to murder my family but failed, I wouldn’t find them blameless just because they didn’t succeed.
Also missing from the picture is that for decades Hamas has been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, building bombs and rockets in the houses where children live, shooting rockets from inside schools and hospitals.
Hamas gave Israel the choice of letting it’s own children die, and not shooting back, or shooting back and Knowing that no matter how hard they tried (and they try pretty fucking hard) that they wouldn’t be able to avoid civilian deaths.
And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.
Let’s see a chart of the number of attempted murders of civilians from each side. That’ll paint a pretty different picture.
Tell me, because we both know that the Israeli casualty number is only low because Israel is good at protecting its citizens and not because Hamas isn’t trying to kill as many Israelis as it can, do you really think the situation would be better if Hamas was more successful at killing Israelis?
And to the exact same point, one side being less successful at killing citizens doesn’t make them right either.
I mean, definitionally Hamas is the aggressor here. The force Israel has traditionally employed in response is nowhere near proportional or responsible, but they have rarely been the inciter in large-scale armed conflicts.
Bombast and hyperbole don't win you arguments or minds on topics like this. Let the atrocities of Israel's violent apartheid speak for themselves, free of embellishment.
So what you're saying is Israel has killed over 4000 Palestinians this decade, including 200 this year prior to this attack, and Palestine launches a counter-attack that leaves 40 dead, and because Palestine retaliated to initial attacks they are now the aggressor "definitionally"? Is the only way to not be labeled the aggressor to soak up every single death at the hands of apartheid in stride?
If you take 10 punches and then throw 1, you are not the aggressor and for anyone to suggest such is for them to side with the aggressor.
Not to mention, I'm having a hard time imagining someone saying "[Israel has] rarely been the inciter in large-scale armed conflicts" while simultaneously looking at the map of Israel carving up the Palestinian homeland to shreds.
Ah yes, the famously stopped Israel/Palestine conflict. You're right, I forgot that they had declared a ceasefire some time after the last Israeli raid on Palestine "years" ago, back in July 2023, where they sent thousands of troops, drones, and missiles into Jenin.
All the Hamaboos are showing their noble savage peddling asses right now
The attack is coming from Gaza. The settlement shit is going on in the West Bank.
This is retaliation for settlement behavior the same way WWII was retaliation for the Ruso-Japanese war.
Stop acting like y'all care about any of us as anything but favorite minorities to shut up and die in your fetishized revolutionary armageddon.
Fuckin' Bougeyevik trash, I'll bet a full 90% of y'all think chat script is just misplaced 7s 2s and 3s.
I suspect the reason Hamas has power is their ability to point at the atrocities in the West Bank and stir up hatred.
Likewise the reason the Zionist warhawks in Isreal have power is they can point out the actions by Hamas and stir up hatred.
That's a hideous feedback loop seen throughout history. It'd be great if it stopped.
My understanding is the Zionists justification for their West Bank actions would make it fair for Native Americans and Mexicans to begin evicting people and bulldozing towns throughout the US... Which I do not support. I'm betting he US would bomb Mexico and raid Native Territories if they did.
Don't confuse criticism of the Israeli government for antisemitism. They have a history of treating Palestinians like absolute garbage, and pushing them more and more and then acting shocked when they push back.
I do not condone the attacks from Hamas on innocent people, but the Israeli government is not innocent in this.
The comments celebrating the slaughter of civilians leaves little confusion to be had.
Only a racist would confuse a sovereign nation with a religion and hence criticism of the actions of said sovereign nation with criticism of a religion.
Anybody claiming anything in the name of all people in this World who are members of the Jewish religion (such as claiming that Israel represent all those people) is by definition a racist because they're literally implying "they're all the same": the racism of thinking of all people who are Jewish are the same (and worse, thinking you can speak for all of them) is specifically called anti-semitism.
Antisemitism is a touchstone of western culture.
Username combined with comment makes me really unsure if you’re hella antisemitic or Jewish and weary
Jewish and oh so weary. And an MGS fan.
Bullies fight
Well, now we know where at least some the weapons the idiot US government left in Afghanistan ended up. I wonder if the 6 billion dollar bribe they paid to Iran helped out.
Free Palestine.
People are dying and you're spouting slogans like an idiot.
People are always dying.
Yeah but civilized people don't celebrate it happening.
"Civilized people"... What a lovely dream.
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@lemmy.world
A community for discussing events around the World
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Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/...
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
go to feed...
This is awful, and there are no good sides to it. Hamas are terrorists, and the Israeli government's actions have made this kind of thing inevitable.
A lot of innocent people on both sides will die, nothing will get resolved, and both sides will continue to do horrible things to each other.
This sucks.
save