Some people, communicating via satellite phones, have described the attack as the “heaviest bombardment yet,” according to independent journalist Sharif Kouddous.
“People can’t call ambulances or civil defense. We are being bombed in an unprecedented manner,” said an unidentified journalist at a Gaza hospital, according to a translation by The Nation’s Palestinian correspondent, Mohammed El-Kurd. “The sky around us just lights up [with explosions], and no one knows what’s going on.”
the world has never truly been at peace though - maybe prior to the evolution of bacteria, but I doubt it.
The natural world is chaotic and violent, so that means we as thinking humans who know what it is to suffer pain and the loss of loved ones, must not only add to that violence and chaos but also devise new, sophisticated ways of inflicting suffering. But also don't forget that we're better and more civilized than animals. /s
Until I experienced violence myself, I was unwilling to process the logic or think it through. Then I lived a portion of my life where I was in physical danger from very bad people, and I was forced to think it through.
Being prepared to retaliate is the most effective defense against those who are not sympathetic to your needs, whom you cannot avoid. It’s why animals demo their weapons when cornered. It’s why plants “waste” energy producing toxins that harm would-be eaters.
Every organism has weapons, and evolution’s been optimizing for over a billion years. Like, a little flap of skin no longer used is selected out over the course of a million years because it provides a disadvantage against those not wasting the energy to grow the little flap of skin. But nature spends energy putting claws on kittens. Why?
It’s logical; it’s just ugly and unpleasant to acknowledge. The only time people acknowledge it is when their circumstances change such that not acknowledging it is worse. ie when they are faced with the necessity of dealing with violence.
Oh thank god it is so good to see someone who understands.
Cease-fire is the best we’ve got. MAD is why small animals have the instinct to fight bigger animals. It’s why pufferfish exist. Nature, unconsciously, groks deterrence and programs it into 100% of her evolved organisms.
That's also why you can stand up to a bear and yell at it and the bear will run away, even though it could easily kill you... It doesn't want to get in a fight.
This speaks to your warped sense of what justice really is, and I pity those around you for how that must affect them as you go through life bleeding your vindictiveness onto others.
The problem with those who are both shameless and arrogant is that they lack the self-awareness and empathy to put themselves in the shoes of others. May the universe show you the same level of mercy that you seem inclined to grant to others...
If a dog bit a person and that person went to the pound and just kicked all the dogs, is sort of what you're cheering for
Okay, and that changes what in this example...?
There can’t be „justice“ for things from the past. Everyone has to heal and make amends. You have to look into the future, so both sides learn to coexist.
Worked for France and Germany and Worked for the IRA and the UK. Conflicts that lasted centuries (France/Germany) and decades (IRA/UK) were able to get resolved.
So you also agree that Israel should immediately cease the siege of Gaza and look toward a diplomatic solution that aims to heal both parties loss. Perhaps a brokered peace and lasting agreement by a neutral 3rd party to finally solve all disputes? I think that's a wonderful idea.
You say this like there's never been an attempt at resolving the apartheid state of Israel. There have been many attempts at diplomatic solutions. For the last 30 years, Netanyahu himself has done everything he can to prevent any kind of diplomatic solution from ever happening.
It is errors in justice that make wars grow.
An excellent example of an error in justice is killing the people next to the people who attacked you. This conflict continues because there’s no clean line connecting an attacker to the retaliation back against that attacker.
What exactly is justice in context of a war?
Whoever wins.
The war will end when there are no sides left.
Which is... either when everyone decides to put their differences aside... or when the last man standing finally dies, all tales get forgotten, and all written records destroyed, so nobody can ever pick any of the sides again. They'll likely pick a different set of sides again, but that will be a different war 🤷
Israel is no better than Russia.
Ukraine attacking Russia was a lie, Israel ethnic cleansing Palestine is reality.
If you say so. Still it didn't worth it to plan and perform that October 7th aggression. To think how much time and resources that required and how much stuff could be done instead to actually improve the lives of Palestinians, it's sad and should be embarrassing.
Hamas obviously doesn’t give the slightest fuck about Palestinians’ wellbeing.
Well you could say that with the money Israel is burning for the terrorist action these days it could have found a way to keep its citizens alive.. and still here we are.
These kind of arguments don't really help do much progress, do they?
Yeah... imagine if Jewish people spent their energy appeasing Nazis instead of doing the "Jewish Bolshevism" which forced those poor white supremacists to go on a genocidal rampage - tsk, tsk.
(/s - for the people on here that aren't rabid white supremacists like the one I'm responding to)
I got temp banned from lemmy.ml for saying that. Basically said "except Ukraine didn't attack Russia first", then got the banhammer. A quick Google on their point (cant even remember what it was) and I knew it was bullshit. I blocked lemmy.ml right after
I mean they took .ml because it's short for marxist-leninist. They've always been as bad as grad
Attacking Palestinians now will not do any good. Hamas is not good and committed a terrorist act. An atrocity. Hundreds injured and dead.
Palestine has 7000 dead including 3000 children from just this month. More children dead than any entire year of any other war of the last 3 years, including Ukraine.
There are over a hundred times as many dead Palestinian kids as Israeli. We should mourn both, but we should keep in contact the numbers too.
Aggression. Aggression that showed Israel's way of defense can no longer work and that terrorists won't stop.
As for the occupation, there is no use in arguing because the bigger issue is logic. It was obvious from the start that this action would not have chances to bring any good end to the situation for Palestinians. No matter what real or fake reasons are, it was foolish. Attacking Israel because of occupation (with weapons like that) is like stabbing yourself with a knife because you have a flu.
You know as well as anyone that this has NOTHING to do with Hamas.
Their strategy of indiscriminate bombing would not be the answer if they wanted to kill Hamas only. There's absolutely no regard for civilians here. They're not destroying Hamas. They're eradicating the population of Palestine. Anyone who lives will rightly join Hamas and after this, honestly I can see why.
Hamas is part of the problem. Arab countries have confirmed that Hamas is stockpiling food and water and medicine for themselves.
They don't care about the Palestinians. If they did, those goods would be distributed.
You seem to be confused. I'll help you understand. It's a matter of perspective:
For Israel, this 'invasion' has nothing to do with Hamas. They were just waiting for a reason to seize more land, and this was the perfect opportunity to get the international community behind them. War crime upon war crime under the pretext of defense. Calls for a ceasefire will be ignored because this is their best chance in decades to take a sizeable chunk of Gaza.
For Hamas, the constant, near century-long murdering of innocent men, women and children is causing the survivors of those attacks to take up arms in anger and fight back. They're not getting a proper education. A Palestinian child born in the early 2000s has already survived 5 wars by now. Hamas is their only vocation. Yes, they're terrorists to us (sitting in our armchairs and engaging in backseat politics from the comfort of our homes), but not to the Palestinian people who seem to be "shielding" them. No one in Palestine is blind to the real terrorists, i.e. Israel.
This is a land grab pure and simple, and Israel is prepared to dig deep.
What you are getting wrong is that they ARE "glassing" the entirety of Gaza, with almost no restraint. That is not excusable, no matter which enemy you are fighting. The thing is, they won't be able to kill Hamas either way, it's only a choice between less Palestinian civilian casualties and more of them
they target specific buildings and points, even "knocking" before blowing it up, so civilians (and the terrorists) can escape.
Nope. That's just not true.
They are a professional army assaulting the most densely populated area in the world. Not letting refugees pass through their lines is already a war crime. Instead they seem to be compressing the population more and blaming Hamas for having the gall to fight at all.
You don't get to accuse the other side of using human shields as you kettle more civilians in with them.
Behavioral/policy similarity doesn't necessarily imply an alliance or partnership compatibility.
Maybe take a look at the agreements between Russia and Israel about Sirya. Welcome to the real world btw.
Ah yes because murdering millions of your own harmless citizens, who some served in your military is totally the same as fighting against a terror organization who massacred and pillaged your villages and keeps 200+ of your citizens captive.
I think what we’re learning from this is that ghettos are a step on the path to genocide. That’s the link to Germany here. You put a subset of “your” people into a walled off place, at some point in the future unless you take down that wall and re-integrate those people, you’re gonna massacre them.
Whether you think you’re capable of genocide or not, you are. We all are. And we need to be paying attention to the things that lead to it. And what this is demonstrating is that ghettos lead to genocide.
subset of "your" people
No Palestinian, or Gazan ever thought of themselves as Israeli, and neither did Israel think of them as their own. The situation of Gazans is terrible, but again - they're not part of Israel, and are never intending to be. That's so different from Nazi Germany that it's just insane to compare the two.
Stop thinking of the Holocaust as a genocide. It's so much more. It's blatant racism, and a well tuned death machine. Something Israel both aren't doing now, and didn't do ever. Israel is only fighting for the good of its own people, and no one in the world can blame them, since every other single nation would've done the same. (Btw, same as Egypt who are doing what's best for their people by not letting Gazans immigrate)
I think it's the other way around. Israel put them in a gheto because they literally had no other way to protect their citizens. Now that the Palestinians have found a way around that, they're back to killing the Israelis. And Israel is responding again.
eh, they havent threatened to nuke anyone... cant really say that about Russia
MAD isn't a threat? I thought that was the whole point
when did Israel do something like this, hmm?
Almost as bad as pursuing Ethnic Bioweapons research in the late 90s. As in designing diseases to wipe out people of specific ethnicity.
Israel is worse than Russia. Russia, in contrast, looks downright reasonable.
In a few weeks, Israel has killed almost as many civilians as those that have died on both sides over the course of almost two years of the Russia-Ukraine war.
.ca never fails to come up with the worst dogshit opinions.
I will continue to be dismissive
Everything any of these leftist fucks say is always wrong. It's impossible to quantify it all in one post, but here's the broad strokes.
- Hamas is a terror organization who steals from, tortures, and oppresses their own people. Hamas seeks to maximize civilian casualties however possible.
2: Israel is not committing (or even attempting) genocide. This one's especially bad because you'd have to be pants-on-head stupid to believe it. It's just pure, distilled, antisemitism.
3: Palestine isn't a country, was never a country, and only Israel has ever been interested in making them a country.
4: Russia and Israel are operating at exact opposite purposes. Russia is trying to rekindle the Russian Empire. Israel is just trying to not suffer genocide against a foreign regime that literally calls for genocide of Jews worldwide. When I say literally, I mean they literally put out a call to action after their attack for Jews to be attacked worldwide, prior to any Israeli military response.
5: Israel is acting with severe restraint compared to what the US would do if a foreign nation invaded and murdered 45,000 people in their homes. Adjusted for population size, that's what the comparable death toll would be in the US. We'd absolutely fucking level any country that did that. We fought WW2 over less. We fought Iraq and Iran over less than 10% of that
It's hard to call out specifics when every single thing every one of these people say is wrong.
zephyreks is a !worldnews@lemmy.ml mod who is banning people there for "orientalism" when they criticize the CCP (you can check their modlog), also it's the same instance where admins haven't banned a lead Lemmy dev when he repeatedly said that "all Israeli citizens are valid targets" and they merely deleted his comments way after they came under fire but until now they are still working with him. It should be clear by now that most "we're just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don't like Hamas" people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism, which is also why they usually share sketchy pro-Hamas sources. They'll concern-troll about the victims in Gaza but in reality all that matters to them is that the US and one of its most important allies get hurt, because, you know, it helps advance their anti-capitalistic "cause", and for the most antisemitic of them they'll also rejoice at some Jewish deaths.
I mean, its not that hard to find both Isreal AND Hamas's actions atrocious. What happened on the terrorist attack was horrifying and disgusting, and so is how Isreal is "Responding" (In quotes because while the severity has ramped up, this isnt exactly new behavior towards Gaza). I hate the Tankies here too, but thats not a Tankie only stance
It should be clear by now that most “we’re just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don’t like Hamas” people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism
I disagree here. There's plenty of people genuinely horrified by the civilians killed by both sides.
Numbers don't lie.
Neither Ukraine nor Russia come even close to as bloodthirsty for civilian lives as Israel. Israel is killing civilians and killing Hamas fighters as collateral damage. Ukraine and Russia are killing each other's soldiers and killing civilians as collateral damage. They're not the same.
Numbers in fact do lie. Any knowledge of statistics 101 basic-ass shit sort of proves this
Ukraine is way larger than Gaza, the EU has let millions of refugees in... and still Russia has leveled several Ukrainian cities to the ground, with soldiers shooting random civilians on the streets.
Right now, Russia is like Israel and Hamas put together, the only reason they've killed fewer civilians, is they couldn't find more.
Whatever helps you and your coscience sleep my dear.
Good argument. You were the first of you class I suppose.
?!? Are you ok?
Much as I loathe Putin, he has yet to do anything this savage.
Invading a sovereign nation, killing innocents, bombing schools, hospitals, residential areas, forcefully relocating people, land grabbing, spreading dehumanizing propaganda, threatening to use nukes...
It is exactly the same thing what both Hamas and Israel have been doing.
And using enslaved (oops sorry “conscripted”) soldiers to do it!
Entirely predictable though. Unlike previous rounds between Israel and Gaza, they haven't been targeting the rocket infrastructure. Hamas and PIJ have been bombing Israeli cities daily since October 7th. It doesn't get much coverage because most are intercepted and Israel intentionally censors most documentation of it - but you can find it in the liveblogs of most Israeli news sources.
but understandable - after all, there's still quite a few hostages that the terrorists are holding. hopefully they're being treated humanely and not, you know, tortured & etc but terrorists thrive on terrorism...
One tragedy doesn't justify the other tragedy, or make it less important. It's not a competition.
Warning, Interstellar Travel Insurance does not apply in the Sol System. The Galactic Council Security Office warns travelers to stay away from Sol and specifically Earth due to endemic violence on the planet.
That's sorta true, but like cats and ants aren't exactly sentient lol. They don't commit war crimes and genocide because they can.
Also maybe a space faring species has no issues with war with how much... space there is lol.
Aw who am I kidding, its probably just like Elite Dangerous free for fall
Cats are sentient, they aren't sapient as far as we are aware.
I dunno where it comes from but lots of living things are sentient in fact most are, most aren't however sapient.
Cats are not a good example. They torture their prey. And kill billions of birds every year.
Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerer of death's construction
In the fields, the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah
Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!
Now in darkness, world stops turning
Ashes where their bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing, spreads his wings
I don't know why Satan is always the bad guy. If it exists I would be on his side over the opposition. Way I see it the theists are the ones doing these wars
Ok ok fine in modern usage by those of us (including me) who do not have a masters in the humanities. Yes, I am aware of the connection between Lucifer and Prometheus. As well as his rebranding effort as a symbol of humanism.
Oh lord yeah
It’s also why parity is a key component of citizens’ enjoying respect.
That era ended after WWII, that's not how it works anymore... Anything worthwhile gets destroyed and polluted if you fight with modern arms
We've gotten more advanced - now, you can make billions through the act of war itself! If you position yourself correctly through investments, you too can drink from the firehouse of money aimed at the military industrial complex whenever war occurs
sweet loot drops, for one.
You know if the leader of Hamas dropped 4x legendary skins, 2X xp multiplier and $30 worth of in game currency a teenager would have them dead by morning.
When’s the last time a soldier forced his way into your home and told you to bring him food or he’d kill you?
Well there’s violence and there’s the capacity for violence. The most effective thing is the capacity for violence. The actual violence isn’t useful; except as a means to prove one’s capacity.
The best is to achieve that without having to actually hurt anyone.
I think the majority of us get it. There are a few who are making decisions that don't understand.
They understand, it's just that minimising violence is not their objective.
Don't forget Tokyo! Those we're all war crimes interestingly enough.
Oddly the siege of Gaza may very well fall into that category with the amount of ordinance that's been dropped, although the terminology would likely be different due to the guided aspect.
Carpet bombing of cities, towns, villages, or other areas containing a concentration of civilians is considered a war crime[5] as of Article 51 of the 1977 Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[6][7][8]
The term obliteration bombing is sometimes used to describe especially intensified bombing with the intention of destroying a city or a large part of the city. The term area bombing refers to indiscriminate bombing of an area and also encompasses cases of carpet bombing, including obliteration bombing.
Perhaps it might even get it's own unique term someday. I do find it quite similar from what I'm reading on the first instance of carpet bombing though, the bombing of Barcelona
Along with the variance of the times between each individual attack, this had a demoralizing effect on the civilian population, which suffered prolonged anxiety quite out of proportion to the number of bombs dropped over a long period of time. Coupled with the fact that there was little discernible military value in the choice of targets within the city, and the cessation of the attacks for no apparent reason
Edit: sorry meant to add this as well
The Italian bombers dropped 44 tons of bombs.[7] Rather than aiming at military targets, the Italians intended to destroy industrial areas of the city and demoralize the Republican side, in what some authors have described as the first aerial carpet bombing in history.[1] Their targets and declared objectives were military warehouses, arms factories, trains with soldiers, and the port, but civil buildings, cinemas, consulates, and theatres were also hit or destroyed during the bombing.[8]
But they weren't war-crimes at the time and in fact, to the contrary, were very much in the spirit of war as it was being prosecuted by all of the belligerents.
There's been a lot of really good work on the history of air power and the logic that led to deliberately targeting civilians in WW2 on all sides. It wasn't necessarily as nakedly bloodthirsty as it appears to us now looking back. If you honestly believed that targeting civilians would shorten the war and ultimately result in less suffering, it was actually a moral decision, or at least morally ambiguous.
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The world is watching. No justice, no peace.
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