Running Signal Will Soon Cost $50 Million a Year

3 years ago by tree to c/technology

Signal’s president reveals the cost of running the privacy-preserving platform—not just to drum up donations, but to call out the for-profit surveillance business models it competes against.

The encrypted messaging and calling app Signal has become a one-of-a-kind phenomenon in the tech world: It has grown from the preferred encrypted messenger for the paranoid privacy elite into a legitimately mainstream service with hundreds of millions of installs worldwide. And it has done this entirely as a nonprofit effort, with no venture capital or monetization model, all while holding its own against the best-funded Silicon Valley competitors in the world, like WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Gmail, and iMessage.

Today, Signal is revealing something about what it takes to pull that off—and it’s not cheap. For the first time, the Signal Foundation that runs the app has published a full breakdown of Signal’s operating costs: around $40 million this year, projected to hit $50 million by 2025.

Signal’s president, Meredith Whittaker, says her decision to publish the detailed cost numbers in a blog post for the first time—going well beyond the IRS disclosures legally required of nonprofits—was more than just as a frank appeal for year-end donations. By revealing the price of operating a modern communications service, she says, she wanted to call attention to how competitors pay these same expenses: either by profiting directly from monetizing users’ data or, she argues, by locking users into networks that very often operate with that same corporate surveillance business model.

“By being honest about these costs ourselves, we believe that helps provide a view of the engine of the tech industry, the surveillance business model, that is not always apparent to people,” Whittaker tells WIRED. Running a service like Signal—or WhatsApp or Gmail or Telegram—is, she says, “surprisingly expensive. You may not know that, and there’s a good reason you don’t know that, and it’s because it’s not something that companies who pay those expenses via surveillance want you to know.”

Signal pays $14 million a year in infrastructure costs, for instance, including the price of servers, bandwidth, and storage. It uses about 20 petabytes per year of bandwidth, or 20 million gigabytes, to enable voice and video calling alone, which comes to $1.7 million a year. The biggest chunk of those infrastructure costs, fully $6 million annually, goes to telecom firms to pay for the SMS text messages Signal uses to send registration codes to verify new Signal accounts’ phone numbers. That cost has gone up, Signal says, as telecom firms charge more for those text messages in an effort to offset the shrinking use of SMS in favor of cheaper services like Signal and WhatsApp worldwide.

Another $19 million a year or so out of Signal’s budget pays for its staff. Signal now employs about 50 people, a far larger team than a few years ago. In 2016, Signal had just three full-time employees working in a single room in a coworking space in San Francisco. “People didn’t take vacations,” Whittaker says. “People didn’t get on planes because they didn’t want to be offline if there was an outage or something.” While that skeleton-crew era is over—Whittaker says it wasn’t sustainable for those few overworked staffers—she argues that a team of 50 people is still a tiny number compared to services with similar-sized user bases, which often have thousands of employees.

read more: https://www.wired.com/...

archive link: https://archive.ph/O5rzD

pmarcilus 229 points 3 years ago

I'm glad that Signal choose to be transparent about its spending instead of hiding it from obscurity.

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onlinepersona 27 points 3 years ago

Hiding from obscurity? 🤔

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notonReddit -2 points 3 years ago
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OsrsNeedsF2P 11 points 3 years ago

ESL. Bots don't make that kind of mistake.

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Chobbes 177 points 3 years ago

There’s something kind of funny about one of the largest expenses being SMS and voice calls to verify phone numbers when one of the largest complaints about signal is the phone number requirement. I wonder how much this cost factors into them considering dropping the phone number requirement.

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topinambour_rex 113 points 3 years ago

If they drop the phone number requirements, you will get spam, a lot of spam. Much more than now.

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preasket 7 points 3 years ago

Make phone numbers optional and add a setting to allow/forbid accounts with no phone number to message you. I bet phone numbers have zero effect on the level of spam.

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WallEx -21 points 3 years ago

Because there are no other possible verifications apart from phone numbers? Do you open a bank account with your phone number, because it's the only way?

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tja 73 points 3 years ago

What would you think would be an appropriate alternative to easily verify chat accounts that's cheaper than validating phone numbers?

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lloram239 3 points 3 years ago
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wmassingham -1 points 3 years ago

Captchas or other challenges, and better spambot detection.

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devfuuu -22 points 3 years ago

I'd be ok with a credit card verification or so something like that, even if still uncomfortable for me, but I hear it reduces a lot of spam.

But then that would make people confused and make them run away when the app seems to be free and now is asking for a credit card validation... it's too strange.

Anyway I never got a single spam message on signal from all the years I use it, so not sure how others view the problem or even if it is a problem.

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WallEx -33 points 3 years ago

Video call, email, other verificated factors.

So do you think this is the only option available?

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iopq -37 points 3 years ago

Use a 3d face scan, but only send the hash over the net. Can double for account recovery (when user has no email or something)

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topinambour_rex 3 points 3 years ago

I open a bank account with a copy of my id, a copy of a bill to my adress, and some money. My phone number can be used along the process, like for a digital signature.

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Poutinetown 25 points 3 years ago

Phone numbers will still be required to sign up, you only won't need it to add a contact.

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Chobbes 10 points 3 years ago

Seriously? Boo :(

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bobs_monkey 19 points 3 years ago

Probably helps cut down on spam and bot accounts

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sndrtj 23 points 3 years ago

Interestingly this phone number complaint only shows up among techies and especially Americans. You guys don't get to keep your phone number? I've had the same number now for 20 years here in Europe, it may as well be synonymous with my identity.

In fact, I'd say the phone number requirement, or at least option, actually promotes adoption in parts of the world. I wouldn't have been able to get my mother to use Signal if it didn't work with a phone number, for instance. She's not gonna make an account just for a chat app. Phone number she already has.

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devfuuu 39 points 3 years ago

Exactly because I have the same phone number for almost 30 years, that is the problem. It's too deep interlaced with my real and personal identity and I regard it as a very private thing that only few people should have.

I don't get the idea that a phone number should just be randomly given as if it was natural.

It's good to have it as an option for example so my mother can use it simply and quickly, but when I go to a conference and want to connect to new people which are still strangers and will and don't give my phone number. So in those situations I have to randomly use other chat system or share emails? When signal already is in my pocket and my main chat application 99% of the time and is perfect for 1 to 1 friendly chats?

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shortwavesurfer 27 points 3 years ago

It's actually a privacy issue because your phone number is tied to your physical identity so deeply that giving it out is giving too much away.

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neonred 24 points 3 years ago
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Kusimulkku 2 points 3 years ago

I'm mostly contacting people I already know so using phone number (something I already have a collection of) is very handy to me

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Sphks 6 points 3 years ago

My kids don't have a phone number and I would be glad we could use Signal.

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sederx 3 points 3 years ago

should be optional.

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interceder270 91 points 3 years ago

No joke, I'd be way more willing to pay for stuff if business were open about their expenses.

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Tire 10 points 3 years ago

They do ask for donations in the app from time to time.

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squron 7 points 3 years ago

So much this. Just subscribed, I hadn't realized.

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LemmyIsFantastic 87 points 3 years ago
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EnderMB 58 points 3 years ago

Tech pay in the US.

Not wholly relevant to the above story, but worth calling out regardless.

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LemmyIsFantastic 7 points 3 years ago

Fair enough

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LSNLDN 20 points 3 years ago

But 19 million in costs for 50 staff would put everyone at roughly that wage right? Or what have I missed here

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Jako301 32 points 3 years ago

You've got tax, insurance, retirement plans, trainings...

The average wage will be around 200k. Still a lot for the average person, but not much for an experienced programmer/ sysadmin.

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flambonkscious 2 points 3 years ago

Also, what are the chances the 3 overworked stress bunnies that were in on it 'from day 1' are claiming a LOT more than that??

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pandacoder 1 point 3 years ago

200k is also much closer to the amount they advertise in job postings.

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Kuma -3 points 3 years ago

I am getting scared... That is not a normal pay here for an experienced developer. Who gets over 10k a month?! Sign me up! I would say even 100k in a year is a lot for someone, 60k to 80k is a bit more normal. But we also get payed vacationdays (30 days) plus all of the payed holidays and half days, and payed sickleave (80% of your pay) and monthly pension (4-6% of the pay). But that does not cost 140k - 120k for a company, and that was low?...

Everyone think this is normal in the us?!

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Socsa 13 points 3 years ago

An experienced engineer won't take a piss on your lawn for under 200k total comp where I am.

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EssentialCoffee 7 points 3 years ago

Also health insurance, workers comp, any other perks or benefits the company offers

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ipkpjersi 2 points 3 years ago

It depends on where you live, but yes in tech hubs in the US that's normal pay. Of course, outside of USA you'll see like 5x or more lower salaries. I'm happy with the money I currently make, but I'd likely make 2-3x what I currently make if I moved to USA.

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Boy_of_Soy 5 points 3 years ago

Doesn't that just mean both the CEO and you are overpaid?

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LemmyIsFantastic -2 points 3 years ago

In some fantasy land where middle and upper management don't do anything.

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RealM 78 points 3 years ago

You know what, that's fair.

I saw a lot of discussion in the comments about their workers pay, but honestly, they make a great product. Wouldn't wanna be counting pennies in someone elses pockets. I donated a one time 25 bucks, I hope they will continue to ask for donations whenever they are in dire need of server running money.

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xenoclast 56 points 3 years ago

Of all the services asking me for a monthly fee. $5 for a non-profit private communication tool is a no brainer.

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wholeofthemoon -16 points 3 years ago

And you're paying privately... how?

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Kiruko 6 points 3 years ago

You can donate via crypto on their website

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madcaesar 2 points 3 years ago

This isn't viable.

I tried to buy crypto to support some sailors, but... The fees buying that shit are insane. I didn't want to trade, gamble or by a crypto bro, just exchange some USD to bitcoin, was directed to coinbase as they are reputable, apparently and won't steal my shit, but their fees are insane. Trading 100 USD was like 19.95 $ in fees. Fuck that shit.

Is there a cheaper / better yet still safe way to get crypto?

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Kiruko 1 point 3 years ago

Using crypto isn't for everyone, I just thought they might not know. It's much easier when you're 'in it'.

Bitcoin is generally considered expensive. Bitcoin cash would be the way to go imo, but they accept all sorts that are way less expensive.

Personally I would reccomend p2p methods like bisq and agoradesk. But then you incure exchange fees anyway as you would be more likely buying monero (lower fees and more private), which their 'partner' doesn't accept.

Either way, still cheaper that you described

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pedroapero 1 point 3 years ago

I agree this is mostly for people already owning crypto.

Note that not all crypto are created equal, bitcoin is probably the one with the highest fees.

The good news is that a lot of developpers accept cryptocurrency donations (often xmr in addition to btc I noticed). So you can help a lot of organisations that don't want to pay and do legal paperwork to accept fiat.

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xenoclast 2 points 3 years ago

They have a donation thing and you can setup a monthly donation. It's gives you a badge in the app.

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SankaraStone 4 points 3 years ago

Yep, this is what I do. Signal's pretty much one of my top favorite open source applications.

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suckmyspez 52 points 3 years ago

I find it amusing they don’t accept donations via their own cryptocurrency 🫠

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FrankTheHealer 17 points 3 years ago

Tbf, I've used Signal daily for about 5 years now, I completely forgot it had that crypto thing a while back. I don't think it's something that the current head of Signal is interested in.

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online 4 points 3 years ago

I think Marlinspike's weird crypto turn is what got him pushed out so we now have the wonderful Meredith the first tech company leader I've ever looked up to.

Hopefully they remove that crypto thing from it.

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fosforus 8 points 3 years ago
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fuck_u_spez_in_particular 4 points 3 years ago

I'm guessing it has to do with money laundering/tracking etc.

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realharo 3 points 3 years ago

You can also do micropayments without crypto.

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polle 1 point 3 years ago

Lol

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Blackmist 48 points 3 years ago

Just over a dollar a user doesn't sound that bad.

I suspect if they run short of money to run it, they'd add some Discord style features. Better quality voice and video sounds like an easy one to get users of it to pony up for.

Although again, I'd prefer a federated alternative. We shouldn't be hanging large portions of infrastructure on a handful of companies that at any point can pull the rug.

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Ghostbanjo1949 6 points 3 years ago

Someone mentioned above but we have that in Matrix. A great federated messaging service.

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Fallstar 42 points 3 years ago

Does put into perspective how much it costs to run at this level and how their competitors are paying costs of similar magnitudes

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Lodra 5 points 3 years ago

The blog/article calls it out out well: other tech companies are running at much greater magnitudes.

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uis 35 points 3 years ago

40% of costs is salary? That's so little for software company.

EDIT: oops, it's not 19/50, it's 19/40. 47.5% Still less than half.

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s38b35M5 10 points 3 years ago

$19M? With 50 employees, that's an average salary of $380k/yr if my poor math skills are correct. Is that for real?

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Confound4082 25 points 3 years ago

That's not terribly awful actually.

If they are wanting to attract programers with experience and not have them sniped.

Fresh out of school in that field with no experience, one can hit $75k-$120k fairly easily.

Signal needs people who are familiar with encryption and cyber security, and are basically inventing new ways to did things in order to mantain user privacy. That is a very specific niche that takes a lot of skill and experience to do.

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DinkleDorph 6 points 3 years ago

Where are new grads making >75k (USD)? I made 50k CAD out of school, got a couple raises and now at 65...

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ipkpjersi 2 points 3 years ago

Different countries, vastly different pay scales.

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Moneo 2 points 3 years ago

Damn you are me from the past, except I don't have a degree. The pay is much worse up here. I've considered trying to get work down south to make some $ but the US is kind of a shit show right now and I don't want to live in a car dependent city.

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Confound4082 2 points 3 years ago

US.

Average starting salary at my school is $68k, my department is $74k average, and I have friends who have started at $110k and had their MS degree paid for on top of that, with a pay bump after their degree.

I turned down $80k starting in a really low CoL area cause they didnt have a big enough moving allowance, and I have a few other options I'm pursuing that are more appealing to me.

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Takumidesh 1 point 3 years ago

Made 75k out of a 12 week coding bootcamp. Didn't go to school, but worked as a mechanic for about five years before that.

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bezerker03 10 points 3 years ago

That's about the price to compete for a software eng these days.

Factor benefit costs too.

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Max_P 6 points 3 years ago

And it's the kind of product you don't want a 80k developer to introduce security vulnerabilities left and right. You get what you pay for.

Security minded people are usually very skilled, and everyone's competing to get them.

Could it be run cheaper? Yes probably. Would the product enshittify after a while? Absolutely yes.

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MeanEYE 4 points 3 years ago

More likely average developer salary and CEO takes couple of millions as a bonus every year, as they all do.

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ipkpjersi 6 points 3 years ago

This is unfortunately almost definitely how it works.

After all, what kind of CEO can live with only having one yacht?

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TowardsTheFuture 3 points 3 years ago

I mean, multiple places online saying literally less than half that at the high end. Also, I could see a few making that much I guess but all 50 employees?

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bezerker03 1 point 3 years ago

All 50 no. But some could be making more than that. Plus benefit costs alone.

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bezerker03 1 point 3 years ago

I also dunno signal itself. There's no leveling info or there. According to blind posts asking about the tc I quote.

"Work at signal currently and can say the pay is competitive. There’s no equity given it’s a nonprofit but there are many benefits that add up very quickly. Maxed out 401k match, which is ~$20k right there every year, as an example. As a nonprofit you can look at the 990 (I think the most updated one is from 2019 on propublica) that shows salaries for certain employees."

Reading other posts base salary goes up to 250k.

They don't give equity so maybe benefits being factored in.

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s38b35M5 3 points 3 years ago

I'm in the wrong field!

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bezerker03 2 points 3 years ago

It's a great field but super saturated right now. Not a good time to enter lol

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interceder270 1 point 3 years ago

Bull. Shit.

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bezerker03 0 points 3 years ago

What bullshit? Entry level sde 1 at Amazon is 176k. A senior with around 4 to 5 years of experience is 359k.

E5 at Facebook is 412k. Levels.fyi has all the stats.

Like if you're a company competing against these companies for talent that's what you gotta pay. During the pandemic it was even worse with people getting like 20-40k sign on bonuses etc too.

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uis 3 points 3 years ago

Oops, it's 7.5 percent more. Anyway. Article summary says 40M is total operation cost including 19M in wages.

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pandacoder 2 points 3 years ago

You aren't accounting for overhead (taxes that aren't listed on an employee paystub, insurance, benefits, training, etc.)

The advertised salaries are closer to a 150-200k average which is pretty ordinary.

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tehbilly 1 point 3 years ago

That's assuming even pay distribution, which is obviously not the case anywhere.

Still, I hope the distribution isn't terribly skewed, the developers absolutely deserve to be fairly compensated.

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phoneymouse 28 points 3 years ago
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lemmyvore 26 points 3 years ago

If the dollar fee of Whatsapp teaches us anything is that any tax you put on your app hinders adoption.

Whatsapp intended to do that but ended up scrapping the tax for various reasons. One of them was to keep the existing user base (they have existing customers lifetime use for free when they brought out the $1 idea). Another was the fact that in some populous regions of the world credit cards weren't common (like India) and they'd rather have lots of users there.

Bottom line, the $1 Whatsapp is even more elusive than the WinRar license and I've never personally heard of anybody who ever paid it.

https://venturebeat.com/...

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sergih 5 points 3 years ago

My dad paid for it for himself, for me and for my mother, this made a lot of sense bc in Spain, in the pre-messaging app era, sms were like 5-20cents each in most tariffs.

It was getting to the point where it wasn't uncommon for an average joe to just ask their friend who's using whatsapp how to pay for it so he can have it too(many ppl had never bought anything online so they needed help)

However things are different now, there are tons of free messaging app alternatives out there, ppl would rather change to another free one.

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WallEx 13 points 3 years ago

They had 40 million users in 2021, so a dollar a year would cover the costs.

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kautau 11 points 3 years ago

As much as I would hate a “premium tier” for signal. That sounds like the best approach. Charge $5 a year for features that make sense if you are a signal power user, though that can get dicey fast on what those premium features are

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devfuuu 5 points 3 years ago

Basically the gamification and moneyfication that for example discord uses which are basically gimmicks for dumb things like animated avatars or special stickers and we clearly know there are a bunch of people that actually fall for it and give money to feel superior for having those things.

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kautau 7 points 3 years ago

Sort of, though I’d be hesitant to say “actually fall for it” in the case of Signal considering it’s a non profit. They’ve worked really hard to solidify chat privacy, and this is more like “if you use signal a lot, and want some features that in no way impact the service but might be something you’re interested in, perhaps you’d donate?”

It’s either that or beg for donations with banners Wikipedia style. They’ve laid out their costs here pretty well. It’s expensive. I mean even your point of “feeling superior,” many who champion privacy are asking people to switch to signal to chat with them because they won’t use other non-secure chat apps, so I see nothing wrong with a “donor” indicator that can be added to their profile or something.

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Scolding7300 2 points 3 years ago
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kalistia 23 points 3 years ago

My non-pro question is : if it was a peer-to-peer service like element, using a decentralized protocol like matrix, wouldn't it be a huge cost saver because of less data bandwidth and server costs?

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deur 7 points 3 years ago
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lolcatnip 1 point 3 years ago
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Agent641 22 points 3 years ago

Im not sure I can afford that

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Netrunner 17 points 3 years ago

We need a lemmy version of signal

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steltek 58 points 3 years ago

That's Matrix. End to end encrypted, decentralized, and open source.

Bridging opens it up to other services as well, like how Pidgin/Adium/Gaim used to work.

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MeanEYE 6 points 3 years ago

There's application called Session, which is essentially forked Signal, but doesn't rely on servers or phone numbers. Instead it uses Tor network and is decentralized. It's kind of annoying though considering adding people to your contact list, you have to scan their id. Increased security but it goes to show why Signal opted for phone numbers.

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ALostInquirer 1 point 3 years ago

Instead it uses Tor network [...]

Are you sure? Do they use that alongside the weird blockchain backend they had going, or switch over at some point? I remember looking into Session awhile ago but I wrote it off because of the blockchain/cryptocurrency shenanigans involved in the architecture.

As I recall part of the idea was that the cryptocurrency would serve as a sort of incentive for people to run nodes for the Session network to operate.

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MeanEYE 0 points 3 years ago

I am not sure to be honest. It's something I've read, installed application and tinkered a bit. Decided no one from my friends will use this since I already inconvenienced them into Signal. Then promptly removed it.

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smileyhead 3 points 3 years ago

Matrix is the closest, as it is a protocol to build compatible servers and apps onto it.

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topinambour_rex 1 point 3 years ago

No, we need a lemmy version of chaturbate.

I mean, there is already matrix. But does there is already a cammodelling federated tools ?

No, so stop reinventing the wheel, and let's make something new and original.

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subignition 15 points 3 years ago

Now I want to know more about that $6 million annually spent on SMS messages... That seems like a ridiculously unnecessary cost, wonder if some startup can wedge into the market and undercut the competition.

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redcalcium 25 points 3 years ago path: 0 5375175 5375438, hotness: undefined, score: 25, children: 8
bobs_monkey 17 points 3 years ago

It wouldn't surprise me if they keep the SMS verification to keep the number of superfluous accounts to a minimum, which would likely greatly exceed the $6m operating costs. I also wonder if that $6m included their now defunct SMS integration, and if that cost has changed at all.

It's also worth noting that while SMS is typically nowadays a free feature, it wasn't always as such. It used to be that users were charged per message, especially in Europe, which is why Europeans tend to rely on messaging services instead of SMS; US carriers made SMS free only maybe 10-15 years ago, and that was only to US based numbers. When you're dealing with many people that are international, such as in the EU, that adds up quickly. SMS is a Telco utility, and they tend to be, er, behind the times as it were. Remember that when you're an internet-based service and you want to interface with a Telco utility, ie via SMS, they charge a tarrif, like a toll road. While Telco utilities are all digital and voip-equivalent based these days, they are still a private network and charge fees to access. And I am now rambling so I'll stop here.

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GnuLinuxDude 15 points 3 years ago

I remember once a girl I was friends with lamenting that someone sent her two text messages when it could've been one, because each one counted against the free quota before you were charged per text.

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bobs_monkey 9 points 3 years ago

Yup, the late 90s to mid 00s we're an interesting time

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BeatTakeshi 4 points 3 years ago

And god forbid special characters

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subignition 10 points 3 years ago

Right, the reason why SMS is used was explained in the excerpt, I'm not asking about that. I guess what I'm curious about is how badly the telecom firms they're purchasing SMS services from are price gouging, and if they are, why there hasn't been a startup in this space

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redcalcium 8 points 3 years ago

In my country, all carrier here would block bulk SMS sending (and terminate your phone number if they think you abuse it) unless they come from a special short number account (e.g. those with 4 - 5 digits phone number), and those account is not cheap. That's where the telcos made money from sms these days now that ordinary people don't use sms much. They would partner with api providers such as Twillio to setup the account. You can review Twilio international sms pricing for an overview of sms prices across the globe. In my country, it's 50x more expensive than US.

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PlutoniumAcid 4 points 3 years ago

You mean startup for sending SMS? That would have to be a real telco, otherwise it would just be a front that is essentially renting capabilities from an established telco - and it would suffer the same fees/rates as Signal. Either way, really expensive to operate, with no real benefit to show for it.

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subignition 2 points 3 years ago

I mean... yeah. A real telco. I figure it has to be one of a few things:
a) The profit margins baked into existing SMS services are razor-thin and there's no room for a startup to undercut that (unlikely);
b) The monopoly of the existing telcos is thorough enough that they can shut out newcomers;
c) The initial costs of any potential newcomers are great enough that nobody can secure funding;
d) Nobody both wealthy and moral enough has had this idea yet

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Hadriscus 12 points 3 years ago

19M a year for 50 people ? that would be 380.000/person. Surely there's an error here somewhere lol Unless we're talking rupees

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flamingo_pinyata 6 points 3 years ago

Good. People creating useful non-profit services should be paid a lot. And according to their financial reports (somebody linked in another comment) it's not biased towards executive pay.

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realharo 1 point 3 years ago

As long as it doesn't end up eventually bringing down the entire service.

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overzeetop 4 points 3 years ago

It's not exclusively peer to peer, so there must be infrastructure, no?

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TowardsTheFuture 3 points 3 years ago

nah they say 19m is for their almost 50 employees. 14m is infrastructure, 6m of which is for texts to confirm, apparently. Which also... seems like way too much? 6 million for text messages? Are they confirming 390 million new accounts a year? Quick google says its .79 cents a text. 2x that to receive also and... yeah... I'm pretty sure that ain't right. Like I get the 8 mil a year for data, cuz yeah it is a lot. Texts should probably be 1m assuming 50mil new accounts a year. I could see 10m for the 50 people, that is $200,000 on average. So... half what they claim seems reasonable.

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FrankTheHealer 9 points 3 years ago

Probably for renting office space, security, catering, training, employee benefits, and things like that. I'd imagine costs like that balloon up quickly.

Plus there's likely background checks for potential hires, onboarding and interviewing, these all have costs too since they have to be selective of who they hire, since that person will then be working on one of the most secure messaging platforms in the world.

Also, as for the costs of texts, a significant part of that would be the costs associated with sending push notifications. I remember a while back, when I had an iphone and used Apollo for Reddit, the developer of the app explored every option but eventually settled on a paid subscription system, just to enable push notifications for the app. There was no other way since for the users of Apollo alone, the cost of sending push notifications every time you got a reply or message was surprisingly high.

That was just on iOS, add Android to that plus Signal's clients on other platforms, I'd imagine that the bandwidth to send notifications probably costs Signal a lot since people tend to have conversation prompting multiple notifications on their device.

I could be wrong but that would be my guess as to why the costs are, what they are.

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TowardsTheFuture 1 point 3 years ago

Ah the push notifications makes a lot of sense, the article said that was just for SMS messages to confirm messages and that seemed way too much, but push notifications is probably right.

And yeah, I guess I assumed most of those costs wouldn’t be labelled staff budget, but idk I’m not an accountant lol. Still that seems to be a lot for 50 people yearly.

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PeroBasta 4 points 3 years ago

Keep in mind that they need to be able to send SMS worldwide and roaming is a thing. Especially if you have to deal prices with all the telco in the world

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BeardedGingerWonder 3 points 3 years ago

Are you including the office space/associated costs with employing someone as well? I was once told it costs approx 100k to have me in my seat before the cost of my salary was accounted for, not sure how much BS that was, but 100k was multiples of my salary at the time.

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TowardsTheFuture 1 point 3 years ago

I mean, I could see them trying to say costs for buying land and building shit and furnishing and etc. sure, but again this is YEARLY costs, not startup costs. I do assume there is some of that included in the budget but its not listed anywhere. I mean I GUESS that could be listed under budget for staff but that seems... very disingenuous.

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realharo 4 points 3 years ago

If all the employees are located in the highest cost of living area in the world, it kinda makes sense.

Gotta pay those insane housing costs somehow.

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primal_buddhist 2 points 3 years ago

Could be that that is employee headcount and not including contractors.

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eskimofry 0 points 3 years ago

C*Os probably eat a la4ge portion of it. Not even breaching into VPs and Senior Managers

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Hadriscus 0 points 3 years ago

Well there it is, they can make savings easily afaic

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daniskarma -4 points 3 years ago

Yeah, that seems shady at least, what kind of salaries are they getting?

Where I live in europe, IT people usually hace salaries between 30.000 and 80.000. And it is considered a pretty good salary.

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fosforus 12 points 3 years ago
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Gutless2615 57 points 3 years ago

Their leadership team is not overpaid relative to the industry and they are highly deserved of those salaries. They make an excellent product. The point isn’t that the leadership team makes 5mil between them, a drop in the bucket of the 50mil total operating cost. It’s hard to read your comment as anything but disingenuous.

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Amends1782 20 points 3 years ago

Jfc thank you this shit feels like astroturfing in favor of the major big techs like facebook

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fosforus 16 points 3 years ago
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AAA 25 points 3 years ago

Yeah, and about that historical comparison... WhatsApp sold out for $21bn. Signals top earners collectively would have to work for 4200 years to get there.

Those guys deserve every cent of their paycheck, because probably any of them could easily earn multiple of that at another company... given their skills and knowledge in the field.

The biggest miracle is them not selling out.

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Serinus 33 points 3 years ago

Jim O'leary (Vp, Engineering) $666,909 $0 $33,343
Ehren Kret (Chief Technology Officer) $665,909 $0 $8,557
Aruna Harder (Chief Operating Officer) $444,606 $0 $20,500
Graeme Connell (Software Developer) $444,606 $0 $35,208
Greyson Parrelli (Software Developer) $422,972 $0 $35,668
Jonathan Chambers (Software Developer) $420,595 $0 $28,346
Meredith Whittaker (Director / Pres Of Signal Messenger) $191,229 $0 $6,032

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MystikIncarnate 36 points 3 years ago

I don't know why developers are making more than the president of the company here, but that's nice to see.

Usually the person setting the wages is setting their own wage higher than the rest.

It's also wild to me that some developers are making nearly half a million a year. I can't even crack 100k in my local currency (about $75k/yr USD) and my job is to run the infrastructure. If I don't do my job, the company goes offline and all that fancy programming amounts for nothing.

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adam 8 points 3 years ago

US tech wages are just nuts. In the UK I'm basically maxed out for a non-London based software dev at about £70k ($87k). Meanwhile I have a friend who has managed to land a job with a London based US tech firm on about £120k ($150k) which is massive for here but reading this is still a long way off what is possible.

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TwoGems 11 points 3 years ago

You think wages are high here but forget that the USA has no healthcare, no mental healthcare, no social safety networks for if you lose your job, and suffers from overpriced food+housing just like everyone else.

You also get nickle and dime'd for literally everything, including having to tip if you eat out, tip to ride in an Uber, have food delivery, or exist. Drivers licenses cost money. Your birth certificate does. Your car insurance costs. If you can even afford an overpriced car even used.

And even if you get get healthcare through your job, it still sucks. You still pay "co pays" and "deductibles" just to receive care. If you get care at all that is - if the insurance company "decides" to cover your scan.

And you still owe whatever percentage after that insurance doesn't cover. Say your important surgery is $100k in costs (yes they cost that much here often). Even with decent insurance you're still owing thousands afterwards, more than likely depending on the insurance plan.

Forget getting an ambulance for emergencies. Even if your insurance covers it, it may be "out of the insurance network" and therefore not covered, but how could you know that? You're unconscious. And you better tell your body not to get cancer either or into a serious accident, because that can run your medical bills into the millions.

The USA has no decent vacation time, has no required maternity leave or medical leave. You will eat your own childcare costs into the thousands, and some people's partners opt to stay home rather than work to absorb those.

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Tvkan 15 points 3 years ago path: 0 5377644 5378123 5378366, hotness: undefined, score: 15, children: 1
uis 2 points 3 years ago

My guess base is what is written in contract, related or other probably means bonuses or maybe overtime.

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GBU_28 15 points 3 years ago

Sounds completely fine.

Remember we need competent, motivated folks top to bottom. They are certainly getting offers from other organizations to go work for them.

We also don't want them "needing" to accept bribes

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BearOfaTime 13 points 3 years ago

Here's the thing with pay: they can either pay these people or find someone who will accept less.

These employees have options. Signal is competing with other companies to hire them, so the pay is determined by that market.

As for the "free" part, yep, the consumer determines the value here, and since most people are pretty content with garbage like SMS or WhatsApp (which is monetized by your data), "free" is what Signal is competing with.

Fortunately, those of us "in the know" have the opportunity to promote a free app to help build the network effect, and we can financially contribute as part of that.

(Not criticizing, just adding perspective).

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Kethal 1 point 3 years ago

Shitting on a company's shit pay strucute is reasonable, but you can't ignore that this is always a choice between other options. Google and Apple are at least as bad in that regard, and they're worse in other ways. Steps in the right direction are better than not doing anything because there's no perfect option. When you do that, things get worse, because the companies will force you to take steps the wrong way.

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unsaid0415 12 points 3 years ago
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fne8w2ah 11 points 3 years ago

So long as they are transparent with its funding I wouldn't mind donating whether through Patreon or other methods.

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theherk 20 points 3 years ago

You can donate directly in the app via Settings -> Donate to Signal; either one-time or recurring.

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uis 5 points 3 years ago

Foundations love recurring, but one-time works too.

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noodlejetski 4 points 3 years ago path: 0 5379290 5389007, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
somenonewho 10 points 3 years ago

I've been using signal since forever. Recently when there was a big exodus from Whatsapp because of their changed data policies was the first time I felt an impact with response time in the app etc. I immediately set up a regular donation. A few months later they came out with there cryptocurrency scheme I decided I won't be funding any cryptocurrency so I cancelled my donations. I trust signal on the technical side implicitly. But they have lost my trust in the business side :/

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devfuuu 5 points 3 years ago

The crypto highly annoys me too and I was against it, but we can turn it off and nothing changes which is good. I still believe the dev time should have gone elsewhere. But I'm not as bothered as I was in the begining. Same with stories, never used it before signal in other platforms and had to study wtf they were when it appeared on signal. Now I can see and understand a bit of the use case but I have never seen any of my dozens of friends that use signal use that feature. Still something that can be turned off. I've used it to share memes.

Anyway, they claimed heavily that there were markets that would absolutely require that feature since people are used to it in other chat platforms, and if it really brings people to a better platform that is signal I'm ok with it. What I'd really like to see is if the claim now holds true or not and understand if the dev and money time spent in those features really got more users in the app or not and if it was worth the cost vs other features.

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Tetsuo 3 points 3 years ago

Lost me (and many family members) when they dropped support for SMS.

And yes, I will keep on bringing that up on every topic about Signal.

This was a bad move and I'm sure Signal has been bleeding their userbase ever since they have done it.

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haventbeenlistening 9 points 3 years ago

Their user base has grown tremendously since they dropped support for SMS. Just read the article.

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sexual_tomato 1 point 3 years ago

Same here. It was basically the only way to convince non technical users to use it. It's a better texting client than the default Android messages app.

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MeanEYE 0 points 3 years ago

Am kind of annoyed at the fact they go out and say they need more money to keep working on it, while at the same time keep doing features people don't want. My entire contact list asked me how to disable stories the very moment they were released. Then they added crypto, and payments and whatnot. All while people are repeating they want username based accounts and editing features. Video calls in Signal still doesn't have add person to call. You are simply not able to have a group call with people without creating a group first. But sure as hell we have crypto.

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Mio 8 points 3 years ago

They should make it possible for the community to help out with server resources. Relay or decrentralize it maybe.

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FrankTheHealer 8 points 3 years ago

There's probably a lot of pros and cons. But the big thing for Signal would be maintaining privacy and solid performance.

These things become harder to guarantee if you decentralize or rely on the community. While Matrix is doing quite well in this regard, it would take a while before Signal had all the ducks in a row to enable this.

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smileyhead 3 points 3 years ago

I don't think Matrix is making this well... We with friends have selfhosted instance and the database bloat is scary.

If Matrix would be as popular as Signal it would blow up untill they fix performance with their server.

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Tire 2 points 3 years ago

They do ask for donations in the app from time to time.

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Flambo 1 point 3 years ago

Relay or decrentralize it maybe.

The thing I read about this earlier said Signal is super against decentralization iirc. Or at least against federation? Are they different?

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fosforus 1 point 3 years ago
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snownyte 6 points 3 years ago

Eventually they're going to cave into having some paid model. Like all good things we once held dear, the long arm of monetary reliance shows no pity or remorse in it's wake.

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theherk 7 points 3 years ago

Wikipedia?

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Tetsuo 1 point 3 years ago

If they do I think they should leave messaging free and create some Premium Signal subscription to get voice calls and video calls.

I don't want to pay for this major bandwidth usage even though I have never done a single secure phone call.

I cannot understand how they can use so much bandwidth and I have to assume the vast majority of it is for voice and video.

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Scolding7300 6 points 3 years ago
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systemglitch 5 points 3 years ago

I've never heard of this before

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Evotech 5 points 3 years ago

Du the average signal staffer makes 380k?

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CrinterScaked 25 points 3 years ago

If you take out the employer-side taxes and cost of benefits, maybe. A fair number of their employees must be software engineers, and that much compensation isn't unreasonable for expert software engineers.

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bdonvr 12 points 3 years ago

It says "pays for" not "pays to". So benefits, travel/relocation, training, etc, is included.

The average is then brought up by the higher level staff getting paid more.

So for a Mountain View CA company each staffer making ~$200k wouldn't surprise me

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PlutoniumAcid 3 points 3 years ago

Yeah that struck me too. 20 million divided by 50 employees is 400 000 each. That is a LOT of money. Even half that (twice the employees, or half the cost) would be a lot.

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oce 12 points 3 years ago

I don't know what's the ratio in the USA but you may divide it by close to 2 to get the employee pay considering all kind of salary taxes. Then imagine the cost of San Francisco engineers able to build a global app used by a hundred million users. It doesn't sound crazy.

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redcalcium -11 points 3 years ago

Signal's CEO salary is $5.7M, not sure about the other execs salary, but we probably can speculate that the execs compensation is half of total salary expense, so those 50 rank and file employees probably cost 200k in salary and benefits instead of 400k.

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kariunai 12 points 3 years ago path: 0 5376275 5377043 5377463 5378352, hotness: undefined, score: 12, children: 1
redcalcium 5 points 3 years ago

You're right, I think I googled wrong company name there.

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MeanEYE -1 points 3 years ago

Made significantly harder by removing easy ways to donate. Instead I have to add my credit card to their application or log in to PayPal instead of just using Google's Play Store. I use to donate until they removed that option. Now every time I wanted to donate and run into that dialog am just like, yeah I don't have PayPal's password on hand and am not leaving my CC with them. I'll do it later, only to forget.

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Plagiatus 18 points 3 years ago

Get yourself a password manager. You'll always have your PayPal password at hand.

I've been liking bitwarden so far. Works well, seems properly encrypted, no big scandals, etc. But of course anyone reading this should compare a few offers first.

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MeanEYE 3 points 3 years ago

I have it, but not on my phone. I use "pass".

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Newchair 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 5393282 5393664 5393762 5399212, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
MeanEYE 0 points 3 years ago

Thanks. I'll look into it. I think I used that as well, but it requires my passwords be on GitHub or something. I do have pass installed in Termux on my phone, but it's not convenient.

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jimbo 7 points 3 years ago
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spookedbyroaches 3 points 3 years ago

"Because I don't want PayPal doing the same"

Honestly they're both annoying because they take a fee on top of the credit card company fee. Just cut out the middleman and use the credit card option.

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MeanEYE -1 points 3 years ago

They all skim money on top. It's just easier this way. And I'd be happy to increase my donation by the amount Google skims. It's not about that. It's about not having to leave my credit card anywhere.

path: 0 5393282 5394244 5404213, hotness: undefined, score: -1, children: 1
jimbo 1 point 3 years ago
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elias_griffin -7 points 3 years ago

Open Whisper Systems (Open Whisper)

Signal was launched by now-defunct Open Whisper Systems (OWS) in 2013, brainchild of shadowy tech guru ‘Moxie Marlinspike’ – real name Matthew Rosenfeld. In February 2018, responsibility for managing the app passed to the nonprofit Signal Foundation, launched with $50 million in startup capital provided by billionaire former Facebook higher-up Brian Acton, the Foundation’s executive chair

Huawei engineer exposed SIGNAL has CIA backdoor --- Please do not use SIGNAL has been subverted *

WikiLeaks Says the CIA Can “Bypass” Secure Messaging Apps Like Signal. What Does That Mean? *

The fast-growing encrypted messaging app is making itself increasingly vulnerable to abuse. Current and former employees are sounding the alarm *

The CIA and Signals Intelligence *

Get Session, the FOSS fork of Signal, from former employees at Signal

I know what the counter arguments are all gonna be, I live and breate security. The fact is much of this is outside our inspection. We cannot audit the internal Signal network or it's code. If something comes across as possibly sketchy when deaing with security and privacy, for all intents and purposes it is sketchy and cannot be trusted.

When in doubt, personalize the situation. You have a babysitter. You heard sketchy things and saw some low grade sketchy stuff. What do you do? You boot immediately, right?

Do not try to convince yourself of something you cannot without hard evidence.

You're welcome.

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Vulwsztyn 3 points 3 years ago

Read the 1st comment under 1st link, 2nd link os about something different, 4th links is about something absolutely different. **

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ScrotusMaximus 2 points 3 years ago

Is the original fishy comment some kind of bot generated counter intelligence?

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tehbilly 1 point 3 years ago

I especially love how even the first few paragraphs of the second link make it clear that it's not a problem with Signal.

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xploit -8 points 3 years ago
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slumberlust 31 points 3 years ago

An open call for sustainability is the opposite of that isn't it?

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Dulusa 17 points 3 years ago

You really dont know what it means if a Company is non-profit and opensource, right?

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PlutoniumAcid 1 point 3 years ago
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Lemonparty -9 points 3 years ago

I'm dead serious wtf is signal? It's like texting but all texting apps just go through it? Or something?

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steltek 18 points 3 years ago

Signal is a chat app. It uses phone numbers for identity verification and friend discovery but messages go over an end-to-end encrypted protocol. While open source, it uses a centralized network and a single client.

It's somewhere between Matrix and WhatsApp. Open Source and friendly, but still centralized and anchored to phone numbers.

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Mr_Blott -10 points 3 years ago

Can we really call a business nonprofit if they pay their CEO 5.7 million a year? Over 10% of operating costs going to one employee? That's fucking insane

Edit - incorrect information

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kariunai 31 points 3 years ago

They are paying their CEO $0. Brian Acton, previously founder of WhatsApp, the guy who initially bankrolled the whole non-profit by a $50 million, 50 year, non-secured, 0% interst loan, later giving even more.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/...

They pay some other C levels 400-600k. Source: https://projects.propublica.org/... (compensation section)

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MeanEYE 0 points 3 years ago

A bit more than $50M

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Serinus 25 points 3 years ago

Where's that number from? I see her as a little under $200k.

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Valmond 14 points 3 years ago

Yeah I have to ask for a credible source on that one.

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AAA 3 points 3 years ago

The most secure and privacy respecting chat app doesn't develop and run itself.

CISO and developers in that field earn into the millions, and Signal is competing with the top dogs here (MANGA). There pay is ridiculously modest.

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shaman1093 2 points 3 years ago

They say 19 mil a year on 50 people - that's like 380k per person for a non for profit... That number seems a little high surely?

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BearOfaTime 2 points 3 years ago

Even if this were accurate, what they pay a CEO is a function of the "CEO Marketplace", i.e. what other companies are paying CEOs, as those are the companies they're competing against to get talent.

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elias_griffin -25 points 3 years ago

Session, a fork of Signal, is better because as far as privacy goes as you don't have to download it from a store that violates your privacy. Just go to the offcial site and download the apk.

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Salix 38 points 3 years ago path: 0 5374499 5376124, hotness: undefined, score: 38, children: 6
Cossty 1 point 3 years ago

As far as I know, this version doesn't have push notifications for microG or google, so it will drain your battery a lot faster because it's always on. People should just download the Google play version with Aurora Store.

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shortwavesurfer 2 points 3 years ago

Actually, I've been using this version for about 4 years, and it does not impact the battery significantly at all.

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Salix 1 point 3 years ago

This version detects if you have Google Play Services when you first launch it. If you do, it'll use it, if not, it moves to websockets.

If you installed GPS after launching Signal, you'll need to go to in and erase Signal's app data for it to reset again.

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Cossty 1 point 3 years ago

I didn't know that, good to know. Thx

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Aatube 1 point 3 years ago

If true, same should go for this Session thing

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elias_griffin 0 points 3 years ago

The Aurora Store still uses Google for some pieces, it just provides an anonymized wrapper for them. The Aurora Store developer has an avatar of himself wearing a mask with the following profile info on GitLab.


Aayush Gupta (He, Him, His)
@theimpulson
Member since March 03, 2018
Bhilai, India
1:07 AM
Android Developer at Calyx Institute
aayush.io
aayushgupta219@gmail.com

He's using Gmail, is that supposed to be ironically funny running all our engagement for his de-Googled product - through Google?

Before I switched to Graphene I ran CalyxOS. It was hacked to pieces and is no where near GrapheneOS or even PostmarketOS I'd say. In fact, I think iOS is probably more secure than CalyxOS!

As well microG has this, anyone step through all that code to verify?

            topDomainOf(Uri.parse(appId).host) == "gstatic.com" && rpId == "google.com" -> {
                // Valid: Hardcoded support for Google putting their app id under gstatic.com.
                // This is gonna save us a ton of requests
                true
            }

I've verified that a straight Session apk install on GrapheneOS does not use Google in any way.

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tree 7 points 3 years ago

I really only use matrix/element I just was just shocked they're paying 6 mil a year for phone verification and they aren't completely underwater

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WallEx 5 points 3 years ago

This is the way. Matrix rocks

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EngineerGaming 5 points 3 years ago
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WallEx 1 point 3 years ago

I'll look into it, thanks

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neonred 1 point 3 years ago
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uis 1 point 3 years ago

Bridges.

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Cossty 2 points 3 years ago

I use element, but for communication with family and friends I use signal. Element app is not as simple, it is a little clunky/buggy and slow. It is not ready for "normal" people.

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uis 1 point 3 years ago

it is a little clunky/buggy and slow. It is not ready for "normal" people.

It uses full sync. You can try sliding sync client like Element X. It's experimental, but should work.

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PlutoniumAcid 6 points 3 years ago

What's their benefit over Signal? It can't be just the downloads source.

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elias_griffin 0 points 3 years ago

The biggest benefit is that Session can run completely independant of platform (Google/Apple) push services and will run completely self-contained. You can set Session to check for messages every X minutes. Of course while the app is open and focused, it's real-time. This removes metadata collection on when/where/how you are messaging.

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jimbo 1 point 3 years ago
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guyrocket 1 point 3 years ago

How do you think that stacks up to jitsi?

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WallEx 3 points 3 years ago

Isn't that mainly for video calling?

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guyrocket 4 points 3 years ago

I think you're right. Not really comparable.

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WallEx 2 points 3 years ago

Taught so, but personally only used it once in a matrix integration

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uis 2 points 3 years ago

Jitsi was used for some time while matrix protocol video was under development.

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