I think there's more nuance on the topic than you're implying. While there's no actual group called antifa, there are plenty of groups who oppose far right ideology (i.e. anti-fascist/antifa). Some of these groups have definitely become heavily armed and radicalized. I don't support fascists, but I also don't support radicalized zealots of any creed. Does that make me a fascist?
That post seems to be missing.
bassomitron 18 points 3 years ago
blackbelt352 90 points 3 years ago
While I'd prefer peaceful resolutions to our problems, I fully understand why left leaning groups are becoming more radicalized. There is little compromise with the theocrats who want to eliminate or subjugate various minority and underrepresented groups within our society, continually hand more and more power to corporations, wholeheartedly believe the end of days is coming once Israel fully takes control of the holy land, and will scream "Second Amendment" and "Crisis Actors" every time kids are killed in school shootings. They violently stormed the US Capitol many of whole had intent to kill Senators and Representatives.
There is no compromise or peaceful resolution with people who want to hurt you or worse because their pastor said you're a demonic sinner who must be cleansed from the earth.
winterayars 20 points 3 years ago
Yeah those fuckers want to kill me for even existing, if i armed up it would be entirely to defend myself.
STRIKINGdebate2 19 points 3 years ago
Yup. Or when anyone tries to do anything they will just come up with reasons why it's wrong.
bassomitron 10 points 3 years ago
As someone who's been in several combat zones with the US military (honorably discharged 10 years ago), I can safely say I do not want my backyard turning into one. So pardon me while I wait for all peaceful options to be utterly exhausted before getting gun-happy and LARPing with others in fatigues while shouting for armed resistance.
If MAGAs or any other "militia" begins marching down my street, I'll sure as shit meet it with force. But until then or an outright coup, I'll continue advocating for peace
masquenox 19 points 3 years ago
Nobody's asking you to break out the claymore mines just yet... it's the fascists that are escalating the lethality, not the "scary radical left" opposing them.
It's usually a good idea to try and stop the fash before they march down your street... by the time they do, the politicians might just have decided to hand them the keys to the tanks - which they will, eventually.
CosmicTurtle 9 points 3 years ago
My stance on Jan 6 was had it been successful and Trump was installed as president, it would have been up to people like you to actually resist the new tyrannical government.
Because at that point, democracy was usurped and the necessary peace transfer of power was ignored for a violent insurrection.
The problem is that J6 was a test run. It was not successful because people with morals, many of whom were registered Republicans, stood firm and said this isn't right. Many of these people have been replaced over the last three years to make stealing an election easier at a state level so that they won't need to steal it at the federal level.
I'm not saying there aren't peaceful options. But one side has already decided that peace is not an option. They showed that they will have their form of government, by force if necessary.
TheTetrapod -20 points 3 years ago
Downvoted because veteran
100_kg_90_de_belin -3 points 3 years ago
They are dropping the "good people on both sides" banger
BarrelAgedBoredom 13 points 3 years ago
Radicals aren't the same as extremists. And that is an important distinction to understand when dealing with politics. Being armed and willing to defend yourself isn't an act of extremism. Being violent towards violent fascists isn't extremism. It's community defense. When you break down politics into it's most base element, it's about the distribution of the legitimate use of violence. Understanding and working within that framework isn't extremism, it's politics 101. Philosophy Tube has a good video on this in relation to fascism. Skip to ~20 mins in for the violence bit.
negativeyoda 13 points 3 years ago
The problem is that letting fascist types run rampant and hoping they'll just go away historically doesn't tend to work out well.
I live in Portland. Up until 2021 or so fascists, proud boys, Patriot prayer, etc. All ran rampant in cahoots with local law enforcement. People were menaced, paintballed, attacked and all that. It sucked. The sniveling mayor begged those groups not to come in (they're never local) and act like that. Shockingly they did anyway.
It was unpleasant, but it worked. Those assholes haven't tried to have their gatherings here in a couple of years. Self described antifa groups are still on edge but have largely diminished in activity. You don't see antifa rallies designed to menace going out to the surrounding small towns where those assholes largely come from. Unless you're sporting some obviously fash flair pretty much everyone gets left alone in town.
Both sides are not the same
a_wild_mimic_appears 3 points 3 years ago
That was a good read, tyvm
ArbiterXero 10 points 3 years ago
So would you label “maga” as heavily armed and radicalised?
ArbiterXero 1 point 3 years ago
Sure, but I was curious whether the person I was replying to at least applied their standard across the board
pinkdrunkenelephants 1 point 3 years ago
Yeah, actually, it kinda does.
MonsiuerPatEBrown -4 points 3 years ago
yes that makes you a fascist.
i think that you should be quiet and postulate that garbage to the dump.
100_kg_90_de_belin -5 points 3 years ago
Well, you know *gestures vaguely at all the far-right stuff going on in the United States"
negativeyoda 16 points 3 years ago
Not untrue, but antifa in general would cease to exist if fascists stopped coming to cities to menace people
explodicle -3 points 3 years ago
In this context they're using "extremist" to mean "goes too far".
JohnDClay 3 points 3 years ago
Do they? It didn't really seem like a value judgment to me.
But you can also be right and go to far. I don't know if these groups do go to far, but nuclear annihilation for example would definitely be too far.
explodicle 0 points 3 years ago
In that case they'd be right about just the problem, but not right in their entire position which includes a solution. Nobody who thinks we should nuke the world for anything is right.
explodicle -1 points 3 years ago
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FireTower 7 points 3 years ago
The use or sharing of these symbols or phrases alone should not independently be considered evidence of AVE presence or affiliation or serve as an indicator of illegal activity.
-FBI, in the document referenced.
UltraMagnus0001 0 points 3 years ago
But anti fascist are fascist. we must lock them up and ..... \s
c0mbatbag3l -1 points 3 years ago
Only if you're dumb enough to just assume whatever a group titles themselves actually reflects their beliefs.
Do you think the Nazis were socialist? How about the Soviets?
You can call yourself whatever you want, if your group is anti fascist and acts in an authoritarian manner, then you're the same thing with a different economic outlook.
Mandarbmax 0 points 3 years ago
Yes but antifa is anti fascist.
Calling antifa a terrorist organization because in another universe an organization sharing the name could be bad is like banning ice cream because it could be made out of maggots.
c0mbatbag3l -1 points 3 years ago
Yes but antifa is anti fascist.
Damn, it's like you didn't even understand literally my entire comment.
Capitalist authoritarianism and socialist/communist authoritarianism are both the same thing, using terms like fascism to pretend it's different is the problem.
If you use authoritarian means to get your way you are only different from fascism economically. If you aren't authoritarian then you're not going to support any group regardless of what they refer to themselves as or what they consider the opposition to be called.
Mandarbmax 1 point 3 years ago
An anarchist group is authoritarian? What are you smoking.
chicken -5 points 3 years ago
Isn't their whole thing arguing that terrorist tactics are justified, helpful and necessary? Every time I see antifa supporters talking online that's the thrust of the discussion. What is the case for them not being a terrorist group?
chicken 7 points 3 years ago
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with what I said. I'm not talking about moral weight or feelings, and I'm not saying 'terrorist' pejoratively. It's a word, it means something. I don't think its meaning strictly depends on who is in the right, it's more about goals and methods. What do you think it means?
uriel238 52 points 3 years ago
The FBI special agent pool is lousy with white power fascists and Christian nationalists. Since its directorship isn't willing to clean house this is all a public relations front to suggest the FBI isn't as captured as it is.
But James Comey did it no favors, and even ushered in the MAGA era during which Trump ousted him.
You can expect about as much professionalism from the FBI as you can the DEA or ICE. And they all deserve capture and prosecuton by International nazi-hunters once the hounds are released from their slips.
chumbalumber 8 points 3 years ago
This is nothing new, either. For those that don't know, the FBI under Hoover worked to undermine protest movements, resorting to blackmail and political assassinations to meet their ends. This is verified and accepted fact; COINTELPRO documents were stolen by activists and released, and details psychological warfare carried out on MLK, to the point of encouraging him to commit suicide, the murder of Fred Hampton and other prominent members of the Black Panthers, and many, many other atrocities committed against so-called subversives.
Emily Maitliss did an excellent podcast for the BBC on Hoover (called 'The People Vs J Edgar Hoover') Not sure if it's available abroad, but well worth a listen.
uriel238 21 points 3 years ago
In the US, to be labeled a terrorist, you only need to be brown and intelligent. Being Arab or Muslim will get you the label according to right-wing media, including OAN and FOX News.
But these days, terrorist is less about indiscriminate killing to influence others politically, and more about having sentiments against an administration or against a common system. So if you're anti-capitalist, or against US imperialism, terrorist is a title you can proudly wear, even if all that you do is legal and ethical.
That said, I'd encourage considering adding saboteur to anyone's repertoire of skills and activist efforts. State agents have long crossed the lines of violence against the innocent in order to influence others, making themselves and the states they represent terrorists in the OG sense.
FireTower 29 points 3 years ago
Direct link to the document in question:
Included is information on "Animal Rights Violent Extremists", "Anarchist Violent Extremists", & "Militia Violent Extremists". Each starts like this:
(U) SUMMARY: The following symbols and phrases are sometimes used by anti-government or anti-authority violent extremists, specifically anarchist violent extremists (AVEs). AVE symbols are often found on online platforms, in propaganda, and as graffiti. Some common themes for AVE symbols include images and stylized rhetoric conveying anti-capitalist, anti-fascist, or anti-government or anti-law enforcement sentiment.
Although the majority of criminal activity by AVEs violates state or local laws, some crimes may be investigated and prosecuted at the federal level.
The use or sharing of these symbols or phrases alone should not independently be considered evidence of AVE presence or affiliation or serve as an indicator of illegal activity. Additionally, some individuals use such references for their original, historic meaning, or other non-violent purposes.
The FBI does not investigate, co!lect, or maintain information solely for the purposes of monitoring activities protected by the First Amendment.
Cethin 9 points 3 years ago
Funnily enough, this leaves out Proud Boy symbolism. It lists other right wing militia symbols, including black and gold which includes the Proud Boys though.
It's just a list of symbols that are sometimes used by terrorist/violent extremist/agitators though, and it explicitly says their usage or identity with these groups is not enough on its own, so it isn't as bad as the headline implies it's still not good though by any means.
tacosplease 4 points 3 years ago
Yeah I'd love to see a head count of violent right wing extremists just in the FBI vs violent left wing extremists in the entire country.
BarrelAgedBoredom 17 points 3 years ago
They were considered a gang by the FBI for a long time, not sure they still are but they did make the list for quite a while
AmberPrince -5 points 3 years ago
Nah, just an affront to nature and an abomination in the eyes of God.
spacecowboy 2 points 3 years ago
God isn’t real.
HoustonHenry 2 points 3 years ago
I'm eventually gonna make a gif of Afleck from Jay & Silent Bob S.B. using fake sign language, saying "he's a "fictional character""
STRIKINGdebate2 4 points 3 years ago
Juggalos are basically irrelevant now.
tacosplease 1 point 3 years ago
Were they relevant when the FBI categorized them as a gang?
BeautifulMind 4 points 3 years ago
I think it's helpful to remind people that the word Anarchy basically means 'without hierarchy', or it describes a condition or ideal characterized by the absence of hierarchical ordering.
TimewornTraveler 4 points 3 years ago
Alright nerds, hit me with the facts. How many acts of violence or terror have been committed by people claiming to be Antifa? This is not a rhetorical question; I genuinely don't know, and I bet someone here has stats on it. I don't know how to feel about this without knowing whether any leftist groups are actually committing violence like the right. All I can think of is right-wing groups claiming to be Antifa lol
WaxedWookie 2 points 3 years ago
I think it's mostly that leftists dislike the status quo, and the FBI prioritises maintenance of the status quo.
Leate_Wonceslace 3 points 3 years ago path: 0 5625780, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
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Labelling Antifa as a terrorist group is basically admitting you are a fascist.
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