We're all a little crazy

2 years ago by fossilesque to c/science_memes

Kyrgizion 102 points 2 years ago

I posit that the human mind is made up of dozens, or perhaps even hundreds/thousands "smaller agents" that work together to create consciousness as an emergent property of the whole, which makes it impossible to isolate and say "this, THIS right here IS concsciousness". That does not mean each of those has their own personality, per sé.

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carl_dungeon 52 points 2 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/... is a fantastic exploration of this idea, focusing on people who have lost specific parts of their brains due to tumors or strokes. The human mind is very much like a complex modern website- take Amazon for example, if everything is working, it’s the website where you buy stuff, but if certain specific systems are offline, you lose specific features, like your order history, or your cart, or your recommended products, etc… Missing one or two of of those components diminishes the site somewhat, but it’s still more or less Amazon. Your brain works the same way!

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jballs 24 points 2 years ago

Stupid brain running micro-services.

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NightAuthor 8 points 2 years ago

At least it’s on-prem, I’d hate to see the AWS bill for running a conscious human brain 24-7

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Raxiel 17 points 2 years ago

And the underlying animal is still there too. It's fully in control at birth, and gets drowned out as we mature (for some people, less than others).
Small children are little more than animals, which is why they're so unreasonable.
It's my belief that the reason the written word or things like clocks are usually unreadable in dreams, is because the animal is both illiterate and innumerate. Dreams are the animals understanding of our waking experience. It knows these patterns are important and how they relate to other things, but it has no fucking idea what any of it actually means.

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Spiritreader 11 points 2 years ago

I do find myself reading and writing words in dreams quite a lot. I've never seen a clock though, not as far as I can remember.

But sometimes I can even remember signs with street names or banners / short paragraphs.

Dynamic lighting sadly doesn't work tho. Light switches do nothing. For example if I turn on the lights in my bathroom in a dream, I can even hear the bathroom fan turn on, but the room remains dark. Ive heard thst this is apparently quite common though.

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PerogiBoi 12 points 2 years ago

I posit this as well. I’m made up of at least 5 or 6 different versions of me with different biases and personalities. There’s a negative narcissistic version, there’s a happy go lucky version, a pragmatic version, a nihilist with a dark sense of humour, a soppy emotional one, and others and they all fight constantly to have their say. I thought everyone was like this 🤪

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multifariace 6 points 2 years ago

I'm all alone. Which is likely why I crave social activities.

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Pan_Ziemniak 0 points 2 years ago

Plurality is a thing...

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Wirlocke 10 points 2 years ago

You would like Global Workspace Theory, basically says your consciousness is the result of components of the brain broadcasting their information to the whole.

I also like Integrated Information Theory which measures the conscious experience of a system by how integrated it is, which means that you can't reduce the system to the sum of it's parts without losing the emergent properties.

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Kyrgizion 2 points 2 years ago

Thanks for the links, very interesting indeed!

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KillingAndKindess 4 points 2 years ago

Yeah, and come to think of it, I bet you that each one has its own characteristics. Perhaps they may be full blown individuals themeselves from another time and place, and I too will one day join them...

Brb gonna go sailing...

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Deceptichum 1 point 2 years ago

So if I run enough different AI LLM models and let them communicate, I can create consciousness?

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MotoAsh 24 points 2 years ago
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maynarkh 13 points 2 years ago

So you're saying it's not good enough for a sentient personality, but it might be good enough for an average politician?

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MotoAsh 10 points 2 years ago
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nxdefiant 10 points 2 years ago

Hell, maybe even above average if the model can update itself in real time.

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Hotzilla 2 points 2 years ago

In my opinion you are giving way too much credit to human beings. We are mainly just machines that spit out sentences.

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MotoAsh 11 points 2 years ago
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thesporkeffect 3 points 2 years ago

If you gave them all access to real world, realtime sensor data... Over an extended period of time...hmm

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HawlSera 1 point 2 years ago

That can't be because I clearly exist and cannot differentiate between these "smaller agents", I am either so perfectly unified that I cannot tell, or this emergentism is bullshit

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nifty -4 points 2 years ago

No there’s no need to posit cutesy sounding things, that’s how misinformation starts :) If you have any sources or can cite stuff you’ve read which may point to it, that’s cool though

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Buddahriffic 14 points 2 years ago

No, people are allowed to speculate and throw out ideas they have without needing some "expert" or paper to back up what they are saying. The mistake is treating such as if it's a fact. Sure, there's always going to be idiots out there that will take ideas like that and run with them, but I reject the idea that we should censor those speculations and random thoughts because idiots might believe them.

The real problem are the con artists who work those idiots up into a frenzy of fear and distrust by deliberately presenting shit they can't back up as a fact and threat to drive donations or sell snake oil to "protect" from it.

And I'd say even shit like what you said does more harm than good because it can drive those who enjoy harmless speculation but lack the confidence to push back towards the fringes because they think the mainstream wants to tell them how to think.

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nifty 1 point 2 years ago

I agree that hypotheticals and thought experiments are fun, but I disagree that any random speculation is a good idea. Everything should have a kernel of originating known fact, or some reasonable foundation. You can’t do science without starting with some known facts, or stating your assumptions based on such facts.

Edit to say:

And I’d say even shit like what you said does more harm than good because it can drive those who enjoy harmless speculation but lack the confidence to push back towards the fringes because they think the mainstream wants to tell them how to think

Is this speculation harmless? I am not sure we can qualify that, so it’s wrong to assume that it’s harmless.

Anywho, anyone and everyone should be able to participate in a discussion! I just think it’s nice to ground hypotheticals with some kind of known or observed phenomena. The funny thing is that science validates itself, so maybe this person is accurately describing an unknown cognitive model.

To me, good conversation hygiene in science or related fields is rooted in observations 🤷

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Buddahriffic 2 points 2 years ago

I agree that science involves more rigor, but we're not doing science in here, it's just an online discussion forum. And OP qualified their comment with "I posit" and didn't present it like an established fact.

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DumbAceDragon 81 points 2 years ago

Inside you there are two wolves

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Evil_Shrubbery 37 points 2 years ago

Both gay & both loud af, at the same time.

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Ultragigagigantic 5 points 2 years ago

Want some get some

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RavenFellBlade 30 points 2 years ago

Sorry about that transporter malfunction.

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Ultragigagigantic 28 points 2 years ago

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Skymt 17 points 2 years ago

And they were delicious

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PhlubbaDubba 66 points 2 years ago

IIRC the "other consciousness" is the internal monologue or internal visualization you experience when thinking

There's a potentially related theory too that the origin of religion is internal narrator thinkers having perceived the internal narrator as a second entity who was issuing them commands and beliefs rather than their own internal dialogue.

These people would claim to be "prophets" and basically evangelize whatever presence they ascribed responsibility for the internal narrator to. Leading to more people believing their internal narrators are also these divine forces speaking to them.

Not to dunk on rural americans, but a phenomena like this could also explain the recent evangelical movement in the US considering how much emphasis is placed on the personal relationship and communication with God, these people might actually just not realize their own thoughts and ascribe all thought process as the voice of the big man himself.

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Stonewyvvern 17 points 2 years ago

Lived in SE USA most of my life...the majority of the most ridiculous fundamentalists don't have an inner monologue. They speak but there is nothing going on upstairs except life processes.

The way they cling to ideas from others explains why they cling so tightly...they never had one of their own.

Because of this phenomenal outlook they typically adhere to the first idea that comes around and dismiss everything else as false.

Critical thinking is not applicable to everyone.

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root_beer 16 points 2 years ago

Absence of an inner monologue does not mean that there is no thought process. I’ve done just fine without one myself. Can’t speak to whatever is plaguing the fundamentalists apart from indoctrination and being steeped in an oppressive culture that’s been fostered over generations.

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VindictiveJudge 10 points 2 years ago

I have a coworker who I discovered a few weeks ago had no idea internal monologues were a thing. I had to explain that it's a real documented phenomena and that it's actually a minority of people that don't have one. She's pretty damn smart, too. I also play D&D with a guy who has aphantasia. He's also pretty damn smart and you would have no idea he was incapable of visualizing things if he didn't tell you. Him casually mentioning it in conversation surprised people who had known him for years. So, yeah, absolutely no correlation between intelligence and how your thoughts may or may not produce phantom sensory input.

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idiomaddict 5 points 2 years ago

My internal monologue is written. I see letters (they seem typed, but no recognizable font), but I don’t know what it was before I could read.

The only thing I really hear in my head is intrusive- either ear worms or standard intrusive thoughts, otherwise it’s text.

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techMayhem 3 points 2 years ago

The idea of not having a internal monologue is kinda strange to me. I have a constant internal monologue. Like there doesn't go a moment by without me talking to myself in my head.

I had it a couple of times that my internal monologue was off, usually due to medications or after intense experiences where I just need some space to process. It's the most strange feeling.

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Stonewyvvern 2 points 2 years ago

Grandpa gave me some advice...

"Think before you speak. If you think while you're speaking, then you've already failed."

Thanks Gpa...wise words.

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PiJiNWiNg 10 points 2 years ago
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HawlSera 1 point 2 years ago

Makes sense, in a lot of spiritual practices I've been involved in, hearing such a voice is believed to be a higher power.

Unless you mean thoughts themselves, and not something similar but deeper.....

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PhlubbaDubba 2 points 2 years ago

I mean that for a lot of these people thought and that higher power are one in the same.

They believe God is a speaker who instructs them via their inner dialogue, or for seers, by "visions" which could be better identified as a similar phenomenon but involving visual thought rather than inner dialogue thought.

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HawlSera 1 point 2 years ago

Huh, maybe this isn't the "Higher Self" then.. because when I think, I can "hear" a voice in my head, and I can literally make it say what I want....

But when I hear the "Higher Self" it's just suddenly I know something or I'll experience a different kind of silent voice where I can't hear any words... but I suddenly know something I didn't before and it doesn't "feel" like me, it feels like it comes from much deeper in than a mere thought does, there's no "Thought process" in the event of a higher self thing, just realization, and it's usually shit I couldn't possible know, but it's not like I can summon it on command and what it tells me isn't always useful.

Like, one time it told me I'd drink a regular Mountain Dew, not flavored, for the first time in literal years in a matter of minutes.

I disregard it as unlikely, but decide it may be a good idea to get some food as it had been a long day. So I go to Taco Bell, and get my usual drink, a Baja Blast (which is a flavored mountain dew, but the "higher self" specified that it wouldn't be flavored, it'd be the OG mountain dew) They tell me they're out, so absent mindedly I say "Regular mountain dew's fine."

Only after I say that do I go "Wait a god damn minute....."

Obviously this can't be a different form of my thought process that I just don't understand, because how the fuck was it supposed to know the inventory of that exact Taco Bell? Then again, why would a Higher Self care about what drinks I'm drinking... Weird shit like that happens, and since it's always right, I always listen to it, and when it actually comes through in a time of need things seem to turn out fine. I can't explain it, ironically you'd think this would make more really superstitious, but the sad truth is I lost my faith in such things ages ago, it's just the higher self still functions as it does in spite of that.

If you've got an explanation I'd love to hear it

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PhlubbaDubba 2 points 2 years ago

Honestly I'm more impressed by your categorical inventory of the exact kind of Mountain dew you'd been drinking for years.

As for explanation, not everything is owed an explanation. That's part of my issue with the idea of god in the first place, it's an act of trying to define what cannot be explained because for an unfortunate number of people having an answer is more important than not giving one unless you can confirm it's correct or at least approximate or in the direction of a correct answer.

Maybe there is a higher power out there, maybe the supernatural is lurking behind every darkened window and hidden alley, maybe 40k is a prophecy of times to come sent in the form of a table top wargame fortelling the danger of beings worshipped as gods who lust after feasting on our souls, what matters is that all of that is just a story we tell ourselves to pretend those questions aren't still there because an unanswered question is the true incarnation of madness and terror to most people.

God is the King In Yellow, a cloaked masked figure built to contain all the emptiness we fear in the universe.

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Fungah -1 points 2 years ago

I read... Something once and they suggested the past we may have collectively possessed a more direct relationship with rekigi9n like you're talking about. That for some reason or another we don't tend to "hear the voice of hod" like we once did. Out relationship with our internal self had changed. Maybe it was bred out by our tendency to kill the religious folks who disagree the most with whatever the dumpster jour religion at the time is.

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nehal3m 45 points 2 years ago

My speaking consciousness says there isn't.

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ignotum 20 points 2 years ago

My non-verbal consciousness says

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01101000_01101001 34 points 2 years ago

I'm aware of my other consciousness. She's cool. I try to be more like her.

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Omgboom 19 points 2 years ago

I wish mine would stop giving me intrusive thoughts

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KeenFlame 1 point 2 years ago

Done, they can't do that anymore. Anything else I can do for you today?

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fossilesque 13 points 2 years ago
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DaddleDew 4 points 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure mine hates me and makes me so stupid stuff whenever I'm distracted.

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DaMonsterKnees 33 points 2 years ago

Only the Baron Harkonnen speaks in my head, so hah!

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Aganim 10 points 2 years ago

Kill the Abomination!

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DaMonsterKnees 2 points 2 years ago

I love the way that's said in the audiobook. Cheers!

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xpinchx 3 points 2 years ago

Fear is the mind killer.

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Emmie 33 points 2 years ago

I will always held belief that we are part of the spiritual greater universe and our brains are antennas for the consciousness. At the same time I won’t allow this belief to interfere with my daily logic and scientific pursuits.

It’s way more fun to have some nice private things you are contemplating as you enjoy the various psychedelics.

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Fungah 23 points 2 years ago

I, too, did a heroic dose of mushrooms once

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s_s 4 points 2 years ago

There is the idea that it'd be easier for the universe to spontaneously create a single consciousness that knows and experiences everything and thinks they are you rather than creating a big bang that naturally leads to beings with consciences such as you.

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MonkderDritte 7 points 2 years ago

That's nonsense. Why would that be easier?

And physics tend to reduce energy state (contrary to biology), not make things easier.

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mac 4 points 2 years ago

Yeah I read a theory like that, something along the lines of you could not actually have existed until .3s ago but you were created with all of your current memories and experiences

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K0W4LSK1 2 points 2 years ago

That is such a weird way of putting it I believe its more the single consciousness wants to like experience because knowing everything is like pointless so it fragmentes into these piece of its conscienceness and we populate the universe experiencing. Maybe different theories but also not my theory lol

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Ultragigagigantic 4 points 2 years ago

The vibe when you pay monthly tribute to your landed lord. 👌

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Emmie 1 point 2 years ago
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HawlSera 1 point 2 years ago

Ah the Soul Antenna theory, yyes I hope that's valid

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Evil_Shrubbery 22 points 2 years ago

So not one but two suffering entities?

Somehow that makes it worse.

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JoYo 20 points 2 years ago

oh there’s way more than two minds in your brain.

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EmptySlime 14 points 2 years ago

I too have ADHD

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SuddenDownpour 20 points 2 years ago

What, you guys haven't killed the other one? You truly aren't minmaxing your brain usage capacity.

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Jiggle_Physics 7 points 2 years ago

You don't kill the other one. You work on coordinating them so you can consciously apply yourself to two different things at once.

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glitch1985 4 points 2 years ago

Multi-threading.

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hemko 19 points 2 years ago

You're not gonna give us a source?

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fossilesque 23 points 2 years ago
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smeg 54 points 2 years ago
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FinalRemix 18 points 2 years ago

The one thing I can think of that approaches support for the idea is "Joe, the split-brain patient"'s case. You can show him stuff on the right side of his visual field, and he'll tell you what it is. Show him something on the left side of his vision, and he can draw it and react to it, but can't name it. The speech center of his brain is disconnected from the right hemisphere due to that procedure.

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smeg 5 points 2 years ago
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umbrella 1 point 2 years ago
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ExtraMedicated 18 points 2 years ago

So that's why my constant inner-monologue is verbose and meaningful, but I can't communicate for shit?

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gallopingsnail 7 points 2 years ago

Nah, that's just anxiety my dude.

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Sam_Bass 14 points 2 years ago

Can vouch for that. Ive always been of two minds on any given subject

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mynameisigglepiggle 2 points 2 years ago

Its what I tell people are the voices in my head

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NigelFrobisher 11 points 2 years ago

Neither of mine can do speech.

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LiveLM 9 points 2 years ago

Well looks like someone broke the barrier because the smart ass up there is always giving me shit!

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skarn 9 points 2 years ago

It certainly feels like that at times. The key being the non verbal part, it's the part that feels things i can't explain, like I have to poke and probe some part of my brain by imagining, to try and see how it reacts to certain thoughts and observe the emotions, then try to put it into words to explain it to the conscious part of my mind. Like, the subconscious is not unconscious, it's perfectly conscious just not verbal.

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Sanctus 9 points 2 years ago

make us whole

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Fleur__ 8 points 2 years ago

Inside you there are 2 wolves

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yemmly 5 points 2 years ago

And neither one has access to speech

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Dicska 3 points 2 years ago

Mine share the same lonely neuron.

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BluesF 7 points 2 years ago

The only thing I can think of that this could refer to is split brain patients who have undergone a specific medial procedure once used to treat epilepsy. It's possible, although not well understood, that the two halves of their brain operate sort of independently, and only one has access to speech.

It's a very interesting topic, well worth diving into! But it's also very muddy, there is contrasting evidence for and against the "two mind" theory.

Anyway, I'm fairly certain this "theory" does not apply to healthy brains which have not undergone this procedure.

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HawlSera 1 point 2 years ago

I heard that that was a misunderstanding, and the two halves of the brain are still the same entity, but with more limited ability to communicate

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BluesF 2 points 2 years ago

If you're interested I highly recommend this evidence review on the topic. I don't remember the details but there does remain some compelling evidence for both sides. It seems like the two halves are able to communicate in some ways, but not in others. It's not fully clear if this means there are two distinct consciousnesses, or if they continue to operate as one.

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HawlSera 1 point 2 years ago

Well I'll be, still I think "Still continue to operate as one" makes less assumptions, we barely know consciousness is even real to begin with, how can we confidently say that it's like an infinitely dividable amoeba of some kind? I guess I'll check the link.

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BluesF 2 points 2 years ago

Yeah I think that's what's so interesting about it! It's one of the few situations where we have been able to (in a limited way) study how consciousness comes about in a mind. Perhaps leaving us with more questions than answers... Tantalising.

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Jimbo 7 points 2 years ago

We are all a little crazy on this blessed day

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Kolanaki 6 points 2 years ago

You mean the wolves?

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nifty 6 points 2 years ago

Dual consciousness is not exactly proven though, so idk what to think. Hope researchers shed more light down the road

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Mun_Walker 5 points 2 years ago

Check out- Thinking, Fast and Slow By: Daniel Kahneman

It deals with the concepts of two minds in one. System one and system two

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force 5 points 2 years ago

Split brain experiment

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kalkulat 3 points 2 years ago

" We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." — von Goethe

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Transtronaut 3 points 2 years ago

Is this egg_irl?

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Draconic_NEO 1 point 2 years ago

This is science memes, what about this post do you find similar to egg_irl?

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Transtronaut 1 point 2 years ago

Trigger warning: explaining jokes in way too much detail.

The phrasing is a reference to the "Is this a pigeon?" meme (see: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/is-this-a-pigeon ). This is meant to indicate that this is clearly not egg_irl, but the topic of the original post seemed like something repressed trans people can relate to in hindsight. It reminded me of a common pattern among eggs where there's a vague but insistent internal voice (not literally a voice, more like an occasional impulse) telling you to do things that you associate with your actual gender, rather than your assigned gender, with varying effects depending on the person. For example, it generally made me feel uncomfortable without understanding why, leading me to assume I simply didn't like those things, when in fact that was more or less the opposite of the truth.

Anyway, these sorts of things can make the idea of an unknown, voiceless, internal personality separate from your surface-level persona resonate with trans people. Add the fact that when you're deeply involved in gender issues and transitioning, it's so much on your mind that there's a tendency to interpret everything as being somehow related to gender even when it isn't, and it seemed like a good fit for the pigeon meme.

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RIP_Cheems 2 points 2 years ago

I think this has been proven, kinda.

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ringwraithfish 0 points 2 years ago

Alien hand syndrome makes me believe this. Usually occurs when something traumatic happens to the brain. The way it's described seems like the dominant consciousness losing control of that motor function to the lesser consciousness.

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RIP_Cheems 2 points 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure the reason we even came up with this is because of a treatment to epilepsy, which the treatment is literally cutting the connection between the two segments of the brain.

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Lucidlethargy 2 points 2 years ago

Wait... Just two?

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Gakomi 2 points 2 years ago

Well can't say they are wrong pretty sure my body is against what I think especially when it comes to health :))

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HawlSera 1 point 2 years ago

I'd buy it, but... when we die which one goes on as a soul, or do they both?

I'm just kidding of course....

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cout970 1 point 2 years ago

so are we a mixture of experts too?

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iAvicenna 1 point 2 years ago

they could just ask me and I would confirm

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unreasonabro 1 point 2 years ago

It's the same as the old devil v angel on your shoulder bit. There's a left hemisphere mode of understanding, a right hemisphere mode of understanding, and there's what happens when they're well integrated, which is mostly only achievable through meditation.

Just for the record, the left brain is the denialist, which offers hypotheticals and which takes the behaviour of others and places it firmly outside yourself, edifying the lie you tell yourself that you are separate and different from the other largely identical monkeys. The right brain tends to communicate in gestalts and complete pictures, without negativity and possibly without reference to individuality; YMMV.

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chemicalwonka 1 point 2 years ago

this explains a lot .....

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Sorgan71 1 point 2 years ago

Well they're usually connected with nerves so more like 1 brain.

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tweeks 7 points 2 years ago

But if you cut the corpus callosum of the brain in half, it's possible to have two operating systems that conflict with each other in actions in the body.

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Sorgan71 -2 points 2 years ago

if I cut my dick down the middle I dont suddenly have 2 dicks bro

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MeaanBeaan 7 points 2 years ago

I mean, sure. But your dick isn't your brain. No matter how much you allow it to dictate your actions.

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Sorgan71 0 points 2 years ago path: 0 9766512 9767315 9767413 9768371 9768406, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
Silic0n_Alph4 1 point 2 years ago path: 0 9766512 9767315 9767413 9768109, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
K0W4LSK1 1 point 2 years ago

OK but what is a "conscience entity"

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Ultragigagigantic 1 point 2 years ago

Nah those other assholes won't ever shut the fuck up.

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