I remember, a forum I was part of when I was in my youth had a good number of libertarians. I was on reasonably good terms with a number of them, and thought them genuine, if misguided.
The speed at which they changed their labeling to out-and-out fascists once Trump was elected was... staggering.
That was my experience also. I had a very smart coworker, a scientist, who was libertarian, very anti-police and everything. Then Trump came along and he went full fascist. It was very disturbing, and I haven't trusted libertarians since.
Note: I'm using libertarian as shorthand for libertarian capitalist, which is mostly how it's used in the US, though, as noted in another comment, there are other kinds of libertarians, like libertarian socialists.
Its the same all over. Right-wing "libertarians" are just socially embarrassed corporate statists.
Then they weren't libertarians at all. They were randians
Would you believe there are libertarian communists? It sounds like a contradiction. Old queer couples should be able to protect their Marijuana plants with guns and pay their taxes for welfare.
Or to be more exact: "LET ME BUILD A FUCKING SHED ON MY OWN LAND. ALSO, STOP TEARING DOWN HOMELESS PEOPLES' TENTS."
All that being said, the libertarian party has taken a horrible turn and I hate being conflated with a guy who had brain worms.
Why do libertarian concerns always sound like loud petty arguments you would hear at the HOA?
I want to be on the side that's NOT on the HOA. What about this sounds like I want to police your yard? I'm advocating for personal freedoms. I'm: Pro choice. Pro Marijuana. Pro mail in vote. Pro welfare. Pro camping. Honestly, fuck you for being unnecessarily dogmatic. There are libertarians out there who DON'T say "lEt tHE StaTEs DecIde."
Well you were yelling about sheds and growing weed. I assume you're waving a gun around as you type. This is like a stereotypical rant at an HOA or city council meeting.
Speaking of which, here's what a town run by libertarians looks like:
Yes, but the libertarian party of the USA doesn't adhere to the roots of the party. No need to be so hostile, it was an honest question and the fu very much sounds like "get off my lawn!”
Right, this is the part that Libertarians fail to grasp. Liberty comes with responsibility, and responsibility breeds liberty.
In some cultures there is enough civic engagement that they can mostly be trusted to build sheds which don't become oil soaked termite nests after a few years. People take that responsibility seriously so they have more freedom. In the US, the attitude is almost exclusively the purview of childish edgelords who don't care that their behavior impacts others, which is precisely what breeds the need for dumb regulations. The regulations for building a shed are exactly as dumb as the people building sheds.
Stfu
Would you believe there are libertarian communists?
There were libertarian communists. Then Murry Rothbard and Ludwig Von Mises happened, and the movement was functionally hugged to death by John Birchers and other neo-confederate freaks.
Now we have the DSA, the PSL, and the Green Party.
Or to be more exact: “LET ME BUILD A FUCKING SHED ON MY OWN LAND. ALSO, STOP TEARING DOWN HOMELESS PEOPLES’ TENTS.”
That's more old school Spanish-flavored anarchism than American Libertarian-Communism. The Libertarian Communists actually wanted to build communes. And some of them were successful, for at least a little while. You can find small towns sprinkled all over the upper midwest and the Pacific Coast that were started as hippie communes and trans-racial utopian communities dating back to the 40s and 50s, but then got re-absorbed into the national economy over subsequent decades.
Lots of the weirder home improvement laws and residency laws came through as a response to these projects, as Good Ole Boy state governments reasserted themselves over young indie counter-culture communities.
the libertarian party has taken a horrible turn and I hate being conflated with a guy who had brain worms
The official LP also rejected RFK Jr. He's in with the Reform Party which was Ross Perot's old party from the 90s and also the party Donald Trump tried to run under back in... I wanna say 2000?
The modern LP (at least down in Texas) is split neatly between the Kathy Glass freaks and the Pat Dixon geeks. A bunch of disaffected reactionary goons too insurrectionist for the Bush Era Republican party on the right and a bunch of NORML loving hippie anarchists on the left. Its actually kinda beautiful to see them all come together and bag on Trump.
If you have to convince yourself that “libertarianism” is the answer, you have bigger issues than weed plants. It doesn’t matter how high they grow…
I thought in other countries, "libertarian" meant libertarian and not "embarrassed conservative".
Until you get to weed and incarceration
Libertarians being on brand delusional
We also gamble, respect people's choice of religion (or not having a religion), respect the woman's right to choose, want kids to have proper sex ed, etc.
A libertarian on social issues is a liberal who is okay with guns
You say that and then you vote against policies that would actually give people these rights, because too much "government overreach". Libertarians have a tendency to just trust that people will do the right thing, which is a very immature and naïve way of seeing the world. If Libertarianism actually worked, then we wouldn't have Billionaires because they would be using those money for the betterment of humankind. But it'll never work because people are inherently greedy and selfish. Which is why we need government policies that force the world's elite to put their money to good use.
Billionaires got that way because of housing lobbyists to lobby the government. You think Windows would be so dominant if Microsoft didn't go out of their way to put it into public schools? You think Walmart would be everywhere without government subsidies?
No, I don't trust people to do the right thing, especially people in government.
Such an important distinction I'm sure, as they both file into the ballet box to vote for the Republican nominee.
You are the exception, not the rule
We have our own party. I voted for both Gary Johnson and Jo Jorgersen in the last two presidential elections. They represent my views just fine. And they both gained more than 1% of the vote, so I am not happy with the libertarian erasure you're trying to do
Yeah, I remember when the libertarians packed an entire circuit and the SC, and then rallied behind the reblican cantidate at a convention.
Take the win. We'll fight in better times. We got work to do now.
Yea I remember as well. They all vote republican. There is no reality where libertarians come out on the right side of Bush. History has shown you stupid. Keep trying to re-write it.
They definitely don't "all vote republican". And I'm. Not sure which bush you're talking about but if you mean patriot act Bush... You're kidding yourself.
This day and age I have no way of knowing if your some troll account or not, but in the event that you're not: libertarian praxis is awful. But there are a ton of folks like myself and others who realize to vote in 2028 there's only one way this can go. Literally the article. You'll also find a lot of libertarians who are in favor of things like UBI and a strong social safety net.
And it's the same as it was when we had gay marriage as tent pole when Democrat cantidate were equivicating: we'll do the right thing, but no one gets to dictate that because the current situation is not purely a function of external factors. Two things are true: the democratic party utterly failed, and it's still our best hope for the future.
Keep trying…
You can be pro-choice and be a conservative. The divisions between conservative, progressive, etc. are not well-defined, strong boundaries but ideologies. In general if you profess a majority of political opinions that are opposed to your country's/locale's conservative policies then it might be hard for you to justify it. But there are pro-choice American Republicans. There are pro-LGBT American Republicans. There are even pro-democracy American Republicans (a shocker, I know).
But I'm contending that American Libertarians (as in the party, not the very vague ideological notion) are Conservatives and very close to American Republicans. They share, in effect if not in stated policy, the same stances as Republicans based on their support for bills and politicians. They are essentially just a slight white-washed versions of Republicans.
I can't remember when a Republican candidate sought the Libertarian vote. They must be getting desperate.
That fix has been in since 2016
Yeah. It is less that republicans go for the tankies and more that putin and Xinnie The Pooh are behind both groups.
Which is why it is important to always side eye anyone who advocates for not voting or for wasting a third party vote during the presidential election (state and even congress? Go wild. But not for POTUS).
It's the other way around. There's a lot of overlap with conservatives and big L Libertarians over idealized "rugged individualism" fantasies. Conservatives like it because it's an excuse to continue marginalizing historically marginalized groups, and Libertarians like it because it feeds their ubermensch delusion.
So when conservatism becomes unpopular, a lot of those voters do the big L protest vote, so Republicans messaging to Libertarians is really just Republicans attempting to form ranks, not embiggen the tent.
Right but I've never seen a Republican presidential candidate actually go to their convention.
Libertarians are republicans who like weed, CMM
They are socially apathetic. To them, they think all social issues and prejudice just magically resolve. They won't necessarily condone the persecution of, say, lgbtq+ or various other minorities... But they also won't lift a finger to stop it either. Their goal is to externalize guilt and responsibility.
Generically corporate-regulation apathetic, too. They think corporations will magically do the right thing, as in not monopolize, pollute, depress wages and benefits, etc.
They want their utopia and modern conveniences but refuse to pay for any of it.
Oh yeah they don't even care about negative market externalities. In their utopia they think corporations in the beeline pursuit of profit will just naturally be compelled
To that I always ask them who would've voluntarily promoted EPA regulations on vehicles or safety regulations in such a society? Automobile manufacturers didn't want to incorporate them as that changes their bottom-line, requires them to re-tool, and raise prices. Consumers didn't want it either because it would again raise prices while those emission devices reduced vehicle power (my grandpa ripped them off in those early years...).
The only people advocating for such things were scientists and health experts who had the foresight to understand the consequences. That then only came from Democratic institutions mandating such requirements.
Libertarians: create a regulation to stop systemic bigotry? No, the Invisible Hand will fix that. Obviously stores that do want those customers will open.
People with functioning brains: looking at history and blinking.
That's great but I don't believe that changes my overarching point.
Interestingly by the core tenents of Libertarianism, segregation to colored bathrooms would still be alive and well, since private property and individual freedom reign supreme. There'd be a similar recognition or lack thereof for things like same-sex marriage or Trans rights.
Taken to its logical conclusion, such a libertarian utopia would be a hodgepodge of private properties with arbitrary and often draconian local laws dictated by landlords. In effect it would probably devolve into something of a feudal system.
Can't simultaneously have a small toothless government and at the same time one with enough authority to ensure equal rights and counteract discrimination. There's a reason the biggest proponents of Individual Freedom and states rights tend to be the most backwards, socially.
I don't personally believe in segregating bathrooms by gender either. Just go into your stall and do your business. If you want to stand up to pee, that can be in a different compartment
But if a business wanted segregated bathrooms for different races, they would get protested so hard they would go out of business. This would be a good outcome since the racist business owner would be ruined.
Generally okay with, but are they generally OK with legislation protecting those individuals/recognizing them as protected under the same laws that protect for factors of sex and race?
Yes, with the caveat that libertarianism is opposed to some of those laws for any group.
For example, libertarianism strongly condemns murder, but does not support hate crime laws whereby the murderer's motive becomes a separate crime provided it interacts with a protected class, such as murdering someone based on sex or race.
Oh cool like gamble with these nazis… they might not be socially toxic… generally.
"Okay" with their existence. Not with protecting them from abuse and persecution.
Which about sums up the fundamental flaw with libertarians and why they are basically chickenshit republicans.
Everyone has a right to exist. But you are on your own because I am not paying for that since I don't personally care about it
It is why the silver bullet is, and always will be, "explain how orphanages work under libertarianism"
At which point you just have people vaguely saying they support other people's rights while still wanting to pay no taxes, offer no help to anyone who doesn't directly impact them, and still want to get everything they want.
Libertarianism as a personal philosophy? You are an asshole. Libertarianism as a government? You are basically advocating for all the same shit republicans are but are too cowardly to admit what you actually want.
“Okay” with their existence. Not with protecting them from abuse and persecution.
I guess it depends on what kind of abuse we're talking about... but in many places I believe just the cessation of abuse and persecution from the direction of the government would be a pretty big positive change.
Or perhaps I don't have enough imagination. Can you tell me what kinds of protection LGBT people need that other people don't need?
It is why the silver bullet is, and always will be, “explain how orphanages work under libertarianism”
Can you elaborate? I don't get what this is implying.
Libertarians are mostly pro choice, against restricting gambling, against censorship, against mass government surveillance, against NIMBYism, for gay marriage, and trans rights. Find me a conservative that checks even half of those boxes
"The only problem with the KKK is that they smoke weed" - Jeff Sessions, allegedly
This meme just confused everyone who isn't American or doesn't follow American politics.
Especially since Libertarian as a word and definition of an ideology was co-opted by American anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard. Prior to that, libertarian meant freedom of will and general liberty, with some association in anarchism.
Yea, that's what I meant. In the rest of the world libertarian is still a left wing ideology with no connection to ancaps.
Libertarianism is a anti capitalist, socialist and very left wing ideology everywhere except in the US where it apparently has been co-opted by insane people with the opposite beliefs.
For anyone confused: https://www.commondreams.org/...
I still don't understand why you USians insist on calling them "conservatives." They're fascists - period.
There might still be some people around in the US you could call conservative with a straight face... but the last time I met one of those online was in 2012. Bernie Sanders is more of a conservative than these fascists are.
Given how much they love property rights, of sure is funny that they stole the terms "libertarian" and "anarchist" from the left. Primitive terminology accumulation, haha.
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Libertarians are much friendlier with conservatives than they are with liberals, however
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