Yes. Yes they are. Also, I think a "radical Christian" would be the opposite of the KKK.
sugar_in_your_tea 33 points 2 years ago
I guess I'm a radical Christian then.
I believe Jesus taught tolerance and love, so I try to treat others with tolerance and love. And not fake love like "thoughts and prayers," but real love, which comes with action.
thespcicifcocean 25 points 2 years ago
John Brown was a radical Christian, and he's okay in my book.
sugar_in_your_tea 12 points 2 years ago
Truly an American hero.
sugar_in_your_tea 15 points 2 years ago
When I think of tolerance, I think of how Jesus dealt with sinners. He didn't go around pointing out others' mistakes, instead he helped any who came to him. He even asked his father to forgive the people that killed him, saying they didn't know what they were doing.
To me, tolerance doesn't mean ignoring people who live differently, it means quite the opposite: look past the sin and love people for the rest of who they are. Getting into compassion, that also means championing causes that you disagree with, but that help your sinner friends and don't hurt you.
For example, I fully support legalizing the following:
- gay marriage - I'll even include polyamorous marriage (assuming consent)
- drugs - any restrictions should merely protect those who don't use it (e.g. BAC limits for driving)
- prostitution
- gambling
I'm morally opposed to each of those, but that only applies to my own actions, and others choosing to do those doesn't hurt me. If someone else makes a different decision, that's not my business and I'll continue loving them for who they are. Banning those things causes harm, and legalizing them makes people happy without hurting me, so why should I oppose?
Likewise, a homeless person addicted to drugs isn't any less deserving of love than my local religious leader. Jesus gave two commandments:
- Love God
- Love neighbor as yourself
He didn't say, "love saints more than sinners," in fact he said we shouldn't judge others at all. So if I love my religious leader and not the homeless person, I need to repent. And I show that love through action (i.e. compassion), otherwise it's just lip-service and I'm no better than the Pharisees that showed piety in public but were incredibly intolerant.
Tolerance without commission isn't love just like faith without works is dead.
Duke_Nukem_1990 3 points 2 years ago
I believe Jesus taught tolerance and love
So that's what he meant when he said
34Â âDo not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35Â For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36Â And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
Matthew 10:34-36
or when he said:
âWhoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
Matthew 12:30
So tolerant and loving! đ
sugar_in_your_tea 14 points 2 years ago
Matthew 10:34-36
Look at Matthew 26 (specifically 52) where Jesus stopped Peter from defending him with his sword. Jesus is opposed to violence, full stop.
The sword Jesus spoke of in Matthew 10 wasn't a literal sword. He's saying he's here to disrupt the status quo. Following him requires being at odds with the status quo (Jewish law), which is likely to result in being excluded from families and whatnot. He certainly doesn't condone violence, but he does acknowledge that this is a fork in the road and people need to pick sides, because they can't do both.
This similar idea is conveyed in Matthew 6:24 (replace "money" with anything else that stands between you and following God):
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Or Matthew 5:29:
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
I also don't think he means you need to preemptively abandon your family, just that if you have to choose, choose God.
The same idea is true in secular ideology as well. If your family are Nazis, it's better to leave them than become a Nazi.
Duke_Nukem_1990 -11 points 2 years ago
It's so weird how Trump and Jesus fans always need to explain what the words their admiration spoke actually meant. He maybe the evangelicals had it right all along and Donnie is the second coming!
algorithmae 5 points 2 years ago
Oh come on, I can see from a mile away that's it's a metaphor
Duke_Nukem_1990 0 points 2 years ago
Sure like everything that is uncomfortable. Rest is literal. How convenient.
dragonfucker 4 points 2 years ago
Based tbh
angrystego 3 points 2 years ago
They said they believe Jesus taught tolerance. They didn't say it's the ultimate fact just that they believe it. Of course you can find anything in the Bible. You can interpret the text in a hundred ways. There's no one true interpretation. You can just choose one to believe in that makes sense to you (or decide non of it is for you). I think sugar_in_your_tea has chosen a very positive interpretation.
Btw I love your user name!
Flax_vert 2 points 2 years ago
Yes, because Jesus' message was going to divide families, because some members won't accept others who choose to follow Him. It was also to correct other ideas about the messiah uniting everyone and creating peace. The conflict Jesus creates are from those who are intolerant, not Jesus Himself.
It helps to read the verses in their context instead of cherrypicking.
Whether or not you believe that Jesus rose from the dead is another thing, but you cannot deny that the Jesus of the New Testament's moral teachings were good.
the_crotch 1 point 2 years ago
Tolerantly beat the fuck out of those money changers
sugar_in_your_tea 5 points 2 years ago
Lol.
The problem there was that they were defiling his house, disturbing people who were there to worship. Tolerance doesn't mean putting up with bad actors, it means not getting involved in things that don't concern you. Someone else choosing a different religion or lifestyle doesn't concern you, and the direction to love them still applies. Someone persecuting you does impact you, so righteous anger is justified.
blindbunny -1 points 2 years ago
Love is a verb
RavingGrob 1 point 2 years ago
path: 0 14818448 14819355 14829167 14832982, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
blindbunny 1 point 2 years ago
Yep the second part in the link you sent. But it appears as if some people don't think love is something you have to do. I guess it just happens đ€Šââïž
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 8 points 2 years ago
Also, I think a âradical Christianâ would be the opposite of the KKK.
A millennium and a half of Christianity would say otherwise.
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 5 points 2 years ago
Statistically, you're probably not a Scotsman, either.
captainlezbian 7 points 2 years ago
Especially since radical doesn't mean extremist, but seeking the root. You want to know what a radical Christian looks like? MLK. Arguing for equality to be achieved through peaceful means but a positive peace that includes justice.
The kkk are just positive Christians, but unwilling to call themselves that because that would imply that they might be g*rmans and they ain't no stinking deutschbag
Comrade_Spood 6 points 2 years ago
Yeah they are reactionary christians. A radical christian would be like the Catholic Workers and Dorothy Day, or the Fasci Siciliani, or Leo Tolstoy
DarkCloud 75 points 2 years ago
It started out as a prank organization to scare black people... Those outfits they're canonically supposed to be dressed as dead confederate soldiers haunting the south.
If you ask me they leaned too heavy into the racism, and not heavily enough into theatrics and costumes. The problem is they held onto some 1900s sense of injustice, and didn't roll with the times, didn't stay up to date. They didn't evolve with justice or improve on their first poorly selected target... So they became violent and nasty instead.
A shame, I'd love a horse back theater group "haunting" cops and healthcare CEOs... In that timeline the KKK would be a different organization entirely.
sugar_in_your_tea 16 points 2 years ago
Hmm, we should start a rival organization. We can keep the ghost theme, but perhaps go with dead WW2 heroes that push against fascism and abuse of power of every variety.
Maybe the WWW? World War Wraiths. We can also defend the free internet due to the naming collision.
captainlezbian 5 points 2 years ago
I'm in. And we can bring back the thing with women wearing bright red lipstick because Hitler didn't like it. Am I just imagining rockabilly goths doing antifascist pranks and protests? Yes. Does that reduce this in the slightest? Not in the slightest.
rambling_lunatic 5 points 2 years ago
The Sextuple-U
Rivalarrival 16 points 2 years ago
So, gray hoodies and green fiddler hats?
agamemnonymous 8 points 2 years ago
If you ask me they leaned too heavy into the racism, and not heavily enough into theatrics and costumes
You know, I watched my wife work all day gettin' thirty bags together for you ungrateful sons of bitches! And all I can hear is criticize, criticize, criticize! From now on, don't ask me or mine for nothin'!
Spaniard 3 points 2 years ago
I think the idea is that he was a Jew but welcomed gentiles into the faith so technically all Christians are Jews in the eyes of Jesus.
Jesus didn't came here to create Christianity, he was the fulfillment of a Jewish prophecy, Christianity exists because some Jews didn't believe he was the Messiah.
captainlezbian 6 points 2 years ago
Well you have to keep in mind part of who they hate are those fucking papists.
They're Christian in the sense of "everyone i don't like is going to hell, and I've got to hand deliver their ticket there"
HonoraryMancunian 9 points 2 years ago
Longer answer... yeeeeeeessssss
brotundspiele 30 points 2 years ago
Don't wanna argue with the premises here. But isn't Christianity also a bit stupid for praying towards the instrument that's been used to torture and kill their leader.
Just imagine you are Jesus and come into a modern church. You'd run away screaming with all those crosses triggering your PTSD. And that's before you've even heard of all the atrocities they're doing there in your name.
Odd_so_Star_so_Odd 18 points 2 years ago
Not just their leader, early christians were violently prosecuted, they turned their symbol of oppression into the symbol of their faith in an ultimate act of defiance as well as love and forgiveness.
driving_crooner 12 points 2 years ago
Sacrifice is a big thing in Christianity, the cross is the symbol of the biggest sacrifice that God did for us, on Christianity canon.
prole 7 points 2 years ago
Totally. And it really makes sense when you think about it...
God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving and he created man in his own image... And then doomed them all to an eternity of suffering because... reasons.
God was known for being petty and jealous, so he forced humans to destroy their food to prove that they love him.
God, being all powerful, I guess changed his mind about wanting people to burn for eternity, so being the all-powerful, all-loving being that he is, he changed his mind and deleted hell so that all humans could enjoy eternity with him... LOL jk.
No, instead he split himself into another being and became a human with the sole purpose of being murdered in 30 years so that humans didn't have to burn for eternity...? Actually, I kind of lose the thread at this point. It's never been clear to me why an all-powerful god would need to create such a bizarre, convoluted, byzantine means for redemption when he could have just snapped his fingers and made it all go away.
But all of that makes sense when you think about it as just another sacrifice to prove to god that you love him, and our rudimentary understanding of symbolism is all we need to prove this. After all, there's no need to read any other books, therefore this has to be the deepest, most profound thing ever written. I mean holy shit, Jesus is the "lamb of god" that needed to be sacrificed! Just like when we burned our food! Wow, talk about deep connections. No human could ever think up such an amazing story with such deep symbolism!
Anyway... I lost my train of thought.
sugar_in_your_tea 9 points 2 years ago
As a Christian, I've always found that stupid, so I don't do that and don't attend churches that do. The second commandments says:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
I'm pretty sure a cross counts here. I also believe Jesus taught a higher law, meaning the 10 commandments are outdated, and the only thing Jesus said to do to remember him is breaking and sharing bread and sharing wine (Communion in many churches). That's it, that and "feed my sheep" (teach and help others).
I don't get where everyone is getting the "wear and rub a crucifix for luck" idea. A silent prayer should be a lot more effective than directly violating the second commandment.
I choose to remember Jesus' life. His death was an event, his life was full of teaching and wisdom, so I focus on how he treated others instead of how others treated him.
derfunkatron 5 points 2 years ago
I like your perspective and wish Christianity aligned more with your post than whatever itâs doing now.
Iâm not Christian, but I have observed that the worship of the cross and Christ's death is directly tied to the theological idea of salvation, especially with evangelicals. If his death is the single most important part of your faith, then the cross becomes a symbol and reminder that youâre saved and not going to hell. It was primed to become a symbol and eventually an idol.
I also think historically the cross as a symbol for Christianity comes from the Greek letter chi (x) in the spelling of Christ. âX-tiansâ was a shorthand form way before the âtaking Christ out of Christmasâ nonsense.
But to the original point of the Klan burning the cross: Iâve read that they argue that cross burning is a medieval European affirmation of faith, something that is doing double duty of arguing that itâs an expression of their faith and connecting them to their âracialâ roots.
sugar_in_your_tea 5 points 2 years ago
Yeah, I think modern Christianity has really lost the plot. The most important part of Jesus' life is certainly debatable, but surely him rising again is more important than his death? So if we want a symbol to remember being saved, surely the empty tomb with the rock rolled away is the better symbol.
But the only symbol Christ recommended is the last supper. That is how we're supposed to remember him, and that's why we go to church.
And Jesus never said we're saved just because be died, otherwise why would he go around forgiving people manually? Surely that wouldn't matter if they're going to get saved unconditionally anyway. No, we need to actually change ourselves to be in line with his teachings. Love others unconditionally, give to the poor, and multiply the gifts God gave you for the benefit of others.
derfunkatron 2 points 2 years ago
but surely him rising again is more important than his death?
Depends on how fixated a faith is on the âsacrifice of the Lamb.â Thereâs one interpretation that Jesusâ suffering and death is what appeased God and fulfilled the prophecy and ended the law of Moses. If youâre the kind of person that buys into God being the sort of deity that wants to kill himself in order to satisfy his own bloodlust, then yeah, I could see Christâs death being the more important part.
Surely the resurrection should be emphasized as the result, but the death is what God demanded to atone for the sins of the world. The resurrection was just proof that he held up his end of the bargain.
I think that the Christ story suffers from the audience knowing details about the story that the characters donât to the point that the big miracle at the end falls flat. Everyone just ends up focusing on the mechanics of Christs death rather than its purpose.
Spaniard 1 point 2 years ago
You quote the third commandment but you believe they are outdated?
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
Even letters are images...
sugar_in_your_tea 2 points 2 years ago
You quote the third commandment but you believe they are outdated?
Yes. What's the problem?
The 10 commandments are still instructional, even if I the Law of Moses has been fulfilled. Matthew 5:17:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
They're still useful, but not they're outdated, and they're covered by the new law, which Jesus summarized as "love god and love your neighbor."
Even letters are images...
Sure. Don't pray to the Bible or any other physical creation. Pray to God.
lennivelkant 9 points 2 years ago
The core of Christianity is originally the redemption, not the threat that necessitates it and often is more prominent.
The cross is a symbol of the sacrifice made to redeem people from the threat of hell. More relevant here is that sin separates humans from God, and through that sacrifice, the connection is restored. It is a catalyst of redemption and reunion. In that sense, they don't so much pray towards an implement of torture as an implement of liberation, salvation and mercy.
Given that those are hard things to put in a visual, tangible form and that humans tend to place a lot of value in visual, tangible representations, it's basically the simplest symbol you could come up with as a nascent cult.
It's not the only symbol, and particularly during the rise of the Roman church, you'll note that icons of saints become very common too. Some places will even have the Crucifix feature the crucified Jesus as well, to drive home the point about sacrifice and gratitude.
Protestants later held that the worship of saints was tantamount to idolatry and did away with them again, leaving just the core of the message of redemption. There was in some places a conscious choice to pick the "empty" cross rather than the crucified saviour as a symbol that he is no longer dead.
All in all, given his divine wisdom and love for metaphors and similes, I'd think Jesus would understand the point of the cross...
...then proceed to trash the place out of rage over the waste of money and effort that went into gaudy churches and gold-embroidered robes instead of helping the sick and poor.
rayquetzalcoatl 6 points 2 years ago
I'm not Christian but isn't it just very emblematic of the Christian victim complex? Praying towards the instrument of your faith's victimisation is sort of like taking the power back from that symbol and acknowledging the victimisation your belief system has gone through... As far as I can understand it at least đ
midnight_puker 2 points 2 years ago
I honestly don't think most Christians even think this deeply about their own faith.
funkless_eck 2 points 2 years ago
it makes more sense when Christians were a persecuted minority, executed on sight by the Roman empire. You're sharing in a symbol of sacrifice that could itself get you killed.
But that was 1500 years ago.
chuymatt 28 points 2 years ago
Weird story time: My great grandfather was obviously the source of the autism in our family line. Man could not read social subtext to save his life. He felt driven to find some sort to group to belong to that had set meetings and such. For a 5 year span, he joined, like, everyone. Elks, masons, you name it. When we were helping him clean out his house in the early 90s we found a KKK uniform. We asked about it. Apparently it was billed as a menâs group and they just had costumes made. He went along with it for a few meeting and then the extracurriculars were discussed at his last meeting. He finally got the point of it. He got out. We had his calendar book from that year(and every year from the 30s-retirement) and we saw the date where he started crossing out the KKK meeting times.
Why he kept it? It was the best work his wife had ever done.
Several years later I asked my grandfather if his dad was racist. Basically, he said that his dad had gotten in trouble for not understanding the racist, unwritten policies he was supposed to enforce and kept asking why, as there was no logic to them.
wheeldawg 7 points 2 years ago
I mean I hate everything about catholicism too. I mean I hate all religions, but catholicism specifically. But I don't burn their symbols. I just avoid any circumstance I would have to be exposed to of it.
But yeah, still doesn't make sense to burn a symbol you share with the people you hate. This is just their silent screams of self hatred. Not loud enough to drown out the "everything besides white people" hatred, but still somehow present. I guess they can't even like themselves. Too busy hating.
Gotta get that hate-love ratio under control.
kraftpudding 5 points 2 years ago
What makes you hate catholics specifically over other religions?
wheeldawg 5 points 2 years ago
Not the regular people. I've got no problem with them. Known several, never had any issues.
This is more of on the scale of a "big pharma" kinda thing. I think the biggest benefit that idiotic system could ever have to have any hope of getting even half way back to breaking even on their good/bad balance is completely dissolving and actually donating their billions of dollars to something besides buying a new golden throne, and secondly, to execute every priest in their ranks who did the CSA.
Then there's the whole spreading their beliefs by force thing.
I mean they probably all have secrets that are terrible, but that group in particular hasn't been good, ever.
nonfuinoncuro 3 points 2 years ago
for time to leave
Flax_vert 7 points 2 years ago
Quite frankly, Christianity can be used as a motivator for left wing philosophies helping the poor. If you actually read what Jesus' said, it's pretty good and damning for many self proclaimed american "christians"
OmegaLemmy 2 points 2 years ago
Heard of Christian Marxism?
sugar_in_your_tea 2 points 2 years ago
Sort of, but you need to remember that his teachings were an individual philosophy and he didn't want anything to do with government (render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's).
Jesus taught that you should give all you have to the poor and follow God. Failing that, you should be generous in helping the poor. So I think he would advocate for charities, not taxation, since charitable giving is a choice and he wants people to choose to do the right thing. He would also criticize the very wealthy because they obviously have more than enough to share with the poor.
sugar_in_your_tea 1 point 2 years ago
Thanks.
IMO, just paying your taxes doesn't make you a good person, giving what's left does. Ebenezer Scrooge's big transformation wasn't adopting progressive policies or anything, but giving abundantly.
Christianity doesn't say anything about politics, it's an individual thing.
echodot 4 points 2 years ago
as time goes on I'm beginning to realize that religion is a tool of politics
Yeah that's always been the point of religion. They needed some way to control people in the 1400s, so they told them that if they didn't do what they were told, and incidentally pay the church a lot of money, then the big man in the sky would be unhappy. That was about the level of sophistication that a con required back then.
Even as recently as 200 years ago pastors didn't really believe in god, it was just a convenient job to do if you were relatively well off but still needed employment, and didn't want to do any laboring. That's why a lot of them ended up being scientists, they were rich and bored.
atro_city 3 points 2 years ago
You can't get rid of superstitions nor politics. The most important thing that will help is education. A more educated populace is less gullible, but you can't fix stupid. Stupid will always exist.
SpaceCowboy 1 point 2 years ago
Yup. Ideology is religion and religion is ideology. We tend to want to be a part of something bigger, but the people in charge of those bigger things can use it to justify hurting people "for the greater good".
werefreeatlast 6 points 2 years ago path: 0 14838526, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 0
napkin2020 4 points 2 years ago
I don't know what to tell you if that was the first thing that tipped you off.
chrischryse 4 points 2 years ago
Someone please correct me if Iâm wrong but didnât the democrats start the KKK and were they not as religious? Or is there something else?
Also does modern kkk still burn crosses?
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