A lot of modern windows laptop don't let you shut them down.
They use something called Windows Hybrid Sleep and it should be illegal. Selecting shut down in windows will keep the machine in a state where it will turn on at random times to check for updates. Especially fun whrn in your backpack creating a furnace.
Thankfully it can be disabled via AD policy.
Shouldn't have to use fucking group policy just to stop your machine updating at inopportune times. Fucking Windows.
It's always funny to me when people call Linux complicated and in the next sentence say shit like that
As if doing registry edits and group policy stuff is acceptable for basic features and settings
Ah yeah I forgot about hybrid sleep as I turned if off years ago and forgot it existed. Such a nonsense feature.
Or just turn off fast Startup in the power settings.
I meant that you can thankfully disable it with group policy so that the 3000 laptops I manage at work don't all cook in backpacks every day.
Why would you? Sleep uses so little power and the resume is instant.
If it wasn’t for S0 standby being such a piece of shit I’d never shutdown my computer unless it was for an update or hardware maintenance.
I mean since the advent of SSDs I've not found the boot times of computers to be all that slow and I typically quite like coming back to a clean desktop on a new day rather than having junk from yesterday being thrown at me.
Even if the boot time is fast, you lose a lot of the program states. Not only it takes extra time to load those applications, it's also a fair amount of effort to put everything back where it should be.
If it was necessary to shut computers down, no problem, it's not too much time and effort. But there's normally no need to shut computers down, it's just wasted time with no benefits (usually).
yeah if ur working on something you should sleep the computer, but if you're working with, like, one app, or if youre not working on anything, i see no reason not to shutdown ur pc
For me the only thing I needed to "put back where it should be" was my VPN. Bu I switched to wireguard from Eddie, so now I don't need to adjust anything on startup
Exactly. Plus live kernel updates. There is really no reason to reboot. Occasionally I have to shutdown to unplug everything and rearrange my office. Once or twice a year, that's good enough.
See I want all the junk from yesterday.
Because a laptop waking from sleep while in a bag is a fire hazard.
If S0 standby wasn’t so shit, or we could go back to old reliable S1-3 that wouldn’t be an issue.
Have you seen how fast computers turn on these days (from complete shutdowns)? It's 2-3 seconds (if hibernation is completely off). Barely an inconvenience - specially not one worth risking the pc turning on by itself on random times.
As someone who knows how to manage the power and update settings in Windows to prevent this from happening, I am learning that Linux users may not understand how to actually configure Windows to their liking. Which is wild to me.
Sign in states for tokens expire when you power cycle. If you're in IT or moving between classes, not only would you have to wait for power down and power on each stop you make,you'd also need to sign into every tool you use that requires credentials. I work as a field tech for an MSP. If I had to shut down at the end of each stop and boot back up then I'd have to spend 20-30 minutes signing back into my RMM, ticket system, azure portal, knowledge base etc on top of the site specific stuff I'm already going to have to sign into for that stop. Sleep great. Just disable S0 sleep.
Shitty software? The software is great. It sucks that we live in a world that needs MFA to be secure. I also don't think any software exists in the IT space that doesn't require some sign in. Every RMM on the planet is going to require secure sign on and so will every knowledge base software. You also need to sign in to access things like domain DNS. Most of my job is locked behind half a dozen sign ins. That's how it goes for MSPs anything else would be unsecure.
When I got my first (and only) PC, it was outright SUGGESTED to never power it down. By HP. So yeah I just sleep my computer, and yes I have to deal with the bullshit in the meme lol
Always wondered why the fuck my PC is awake before I even touch it.
me too. i see no reason not to shut it down, unless boot time takes way too long (you dont have an ssd), you use windows (always takes too long), or you have a bunch of apps open and don't want to lose the workflow.
though i just have to shutdown anyway because my pc is right under a couple of roof leaks and it might rain while i'm sleeping or not at home
honest question, because i use windows and i shut down every day. is 20 seconds really "too long" for a full boot up?
I think a lot of people are still stuck in the HDD days where windows could take 15-20 mins for a cold boot.
But I only sleep windows because I like to get game updates while I sleep.
Ctrl shift esc. Turn off start on boot up programs that you don't want to start.
Look, I used to work with computers that would take 5 minutes to turn on. I'm done waiting for computers to boot, I want it to take the least time it can. If hibernation takes just 1 second off, I'm gonna use it.
My Windows 10 computer eerily waking itself from sleep got me in the habit of shutting it down completely every night. I'd be lying in bed, turn over and open my eyes, and see the light of the screen reflecting off the wall. It was like something out of a shitty horror movie about computers taking over the world.
To this fucking day, even in Windows 11, it takes "Update and Shut Down" as a mere fucking suggestion. About half the time, it'll restart after the update and just sit there chilling at the login screen. Not a single fuck given.
Linux is a breath of fresh air by comparison. Though, if you choose to run Arch you need to stay on top of updates or else a day will come where you won't be able to update because you're now too far behind. It can be fixed manually, but it's still annoying and a little scary if you're not familiar with it.
Imagine your oven or clothes iron turning itself on while you're not home. Why TF people just accept their computers doing this is beyond me. Either it's a boiling frog situation, or people simply don't remember the times us users had complete control over our devices and think things were always this way.
As an 80s/90s kid, I can tell you they most definitely were not.
I hate windows doing windows things but that's an oxymoron take because computers aren't known to cause fires, if there was an apparent danger around leaving PCs on unattended, then there would've been legal repercussion. This is just a mere annoyance to most.
Electricity isn't free, and neither is it's impact on your computer hardware. The life expectancy of a circuit may reasonably be approximated as a function of watt-hours. this is why hardware manufactuers test their circuits in ovens: the heat simulates high wattage.
it doesn't matter if the power drain is low. So long as your computer is on, it's lifetime watt-hours are constantly ticking down.
Windows has no idea of the state of the hardware it's running on. Someone could be using a janky molex to sata power adapter, which are known to catch fire and only uses it when someone is present. Or a cheap-ass wish.com power supply with exploding capacitors.
The software is arrogant and needs to know its place. It serves the user. It should obey.
Windows wakes up from hibernate? How tf is that happening? Also how tf it knows when to update when its hibernated/sleeping?
Better always keep a gun next to your bed if you use Windows.
Good thing i don't
There is a thing called wake timers on Windows. There is also Wake-on-LAN but not sure if that's enabled on default or not.
So they don't wake when new update arrives but only for prescheduled previously downloaded update?
Yeah, update arriving part is not necessary but it wakes the PC up, checks for updates and install them if there are any, does this every night. And if you disabled auto-sleep it just stays like that until you interfere.
CPU interrupts. There are timer interrupts that can be used for this. In hibernate, only a tiny fraction of the CPU is changing the transistor states. A transistor only uses power when it changes state; i.e. "off" or Hibernate. Transistor state changes when you cycle the clock on a CPU. Anyways, set the register for the timer interrupt and signal the CPU for Hibernate. The timer circuit is still listening to the clock while the rest of the CPU stops listening to the clock. Each clock cycle you subtract one from the register. When the register reaches zero, the timer interrupt wakes the rest of the CPU. Just like moving your mouse or pressing the power button; they signal an interrupt which wakes the CPU.
i didnt know arch did that. never happened to me, though i guess that's because i update it like once every month or every two months, sometimes every day (depends on how long i can forget about updates existing)
The GPG keys that are used to sign packages expire and are rotated something like every six months to a year. If you don't get the new ones in an update before they start being used, pacman will refuse to update at all.
It's easily fixable, but if you don't know that, it can be quite intimidating.
ACPI enabled BIOSes and UEFI support wake timers.
Windows uses this feature to wake the PC all spooky like so you don't get to click the update button yourself.
While Windows doesn't have an Arch wiki, the instructions for turning the automatic wake feature off are a web search away. You'll need another web search to disable automatic updates though.
Did anyone else ever notice that Windows's enshittification really took off around the same time they renamed "My PC" to "This PC" ?
Always seemed like it was a subtle indicator they no longer considered it your personal computer but rather one they so graciously allow you to use once in a while.
Sus timing, though it's certainly just branding.
The whole "My-" prefix for "My Documents" and "My Computer" and all that is something that was around since the 90s, and really served to emphasise the "Personal" in "Personal Computer" at a time when PCs were coming into the home for the first time.
Nowadays that branding is really unnecessary and feels pretty antiquated too, especially in an era where most stuff for most people is online, and the emphasis is more on connected seamless stuff rather than a cute little folder to put your things in.
Our computer.
Their computer. You're just a user.
You should factor in that nowadays it is fairly normal for a single person to have multiple computers, so "My PC" is not specific enough anymore.
Linux users when their computer won't boot because they fucked up their grub config again: (Totally not me)
Just don't use a rolling distro.
Tumbleweed will update six months of packages or more without breaking a sweat. It's all about using something sturdy.
A lot of systems use systemd boot. Also, why would you be modifying Grub?
They're trolling and have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. I've literally not had a bootloader failure in a decade from multiple Linux OS installs.
The only time I had an issue was when I was playing with a bleeding edge distro and it borked full disk encryption, but that was INTENTIONALLY bleeding edge and I knew the risks.
Nah I was doing some virtualization troubleshooting and had to make some changes to grub. Luckily I had backups, but as a serial tinkerer I break stuff pretty often. Also fucked up my fstab when trying to automount drives, though that was an easy fix. I never claimed to be a clever man
"My PC" was even replaced with "this PC" since Windows 11, which feels almost too symbolic...
I'm always so amused when people are like "Uhm, actually, when you shutdown your PC it's not turned off, it's sleeping so it ca.." - Bro, no. sudo poweroff. It's off. Completely off. In fact, it would be hella annoying and fucking useless to configure sleeping.
Found it. AW article
It's called S0ix/Modern Standby/s2idle. It was designed to replace S3, but not only is it shit on Winshit and kekOS, it's also very unreliable on Linux in my experience. The true issue it that manufacturers started to discontinue S3 (so shallow/standby and deep/s2ram) in favor of s2idle. You can check which actions are theoretically possible in the kernel docs, and check which are supported on your system (and enabled) by cat-ing /sys/power/mem_sleep. That's what systemctl suspend chooses. My PC and Server still have deep, but my Laptop already only has s2idle.
Yea, I like to suspend my machine, but rather than hit suspend and walk away I have to wait to find out what has prevented suspend from suspending. That and it trying to goto sleep when I don't want it to. Drives me nuts
I have a gaming machine with no crazy RGBs, but the video card has a loud fan when at maximum. Most of the time it isn't at maximum. When using the desktop it's nice and quiet. When gaming it depends on the game, but mostly it's not too loud. But. BUT! When it first turns on, the fans go to max for a second or two. I was woken up more than once by Windows deciding it needed to turn my PC on to install an update, and the fans screaming for a second as it booted.
I eventually found a setting that disabled that behaviour, but Microsoft made it so incredibly hard. Now that that machine is almost 100% Linux I never have to worry about that.
I'm bottom even when I used windows because I turn it the hell off when I'm not using my computer.
Windows does not wake up from "hibernation" to do "updates". What it really does is sleep walk during S0 sleep (aka Modern Standby) to check for updates, slowly draining your battery. Classic hibernation is not available while S0 sleep is supported by the BIOS.
Mac is also guilty of this.
What it really does is sleep walk during S0 sleep (aka Modern Standby) to check for updates, slowly draining your battery
More importantly, telling Windows to shut down doesn't really shut it down, it puts it to sleep.
Nope. My Linux Mint randomly wakes up from sleep mode all the time. It's just a bug. Tried to fix it, never found solution. I guess I am fine with it. Well. Not really. Help me if you can!!11!!
Lspci and lsusb will help you match up with the list
Thank you guys! Lemmy is great!
My first guess world be unplug your mouse and keyboard and see if it still happens. Your mouse or keyboard could be sending phantom inputs sometimes. If it's a laptop maybe not though or you'd have to test it another way at least. But it's the first thing I'd do.
Thanks, it is a laptop. Switched off bluetooth, maybe that will do the trick...
Put chrome on it, that should fix it
fun story, i almost went crazy for troubleshooting why my desktop (mint cinnamon) often wouldn't autosuspend or even turn off the monitor.
after a good half a year it turned out to be three different issues. autosuspend and monitor were two separate issues in cinnamon that i found a workaround for, and i also found out from the log that something wakes it up every now and then. at first i thought my cats stomp on the keyboard, but they avoid touching it. what actually happens is that when my other cat hops off my chair, static electricity wakes the pc up...
I had to spend an annoying amount of time finding all of the settings to make it so that my windows machine would never wake up on its own, spread out over an even longer period of time because some of them aren't easy to trigger on my own so it was a matter of trying something and then trying more things if I find it awake on its own again.
Even disabling the wake on mouse movement was a pain because it doesn't properly label mice and keyboards and doesn't have a global setting. I wanted to keep wake on keyboard but not have it wake if my mouse moved a nm because a butterfly flapped its wings too vigorously as it flew by the closed window.
After I installed Linux, I went to do the same thing there only to find it already had sensible defaults set.
🤭and sometimes, if you wake your linux things go to shit and all you see is black screen and white mouse on it
Sometimes super+ctrl+alt+F8 saves me and I can restart PC from TTY, and sometimes, there is only a flashing cursor. In second case, I have to take hard measures and forcefully manually restart it
(Yes nvidia card with latest proprietary driver and kde on wayland) -> everything latest meaning from endeavour/arch/aur repos.
I like how you corrected opinion to experience 😃👌🏻
And yes, I would call that an evidence, not a proof but clearly an evidence, especially if you did not change anything else (hardware or start from scratch setting up Linux distribution).
Another day of learning about Linux from the comments under a meme.
I just unplug my computer when I'm done with it. That way it doesn't update.
It makes a cool popping sound as my speakers and screen flash off.
You could also hibernate and flip the power switch afterwards, if you're on a desktop.
Just shut it off when you arent using it like a normal person.
unless you're gonna use it later, like in case you have a bunch of programs open that you'd need to reopen and open a bunch of project files
edit: for some reason my train of thought went everywhere other than the rails at the start
Nvidia users having to shutdown anyway because the computer will hang when trying to put it to sleep:
I love how they wake up in my backpack so they can overheat AND drain the battery at the same time.
That's efficiency.
Reach into your backpack and get 3rd degree burns.
I like and I do use Linux as my main OS. No dual boot BS, just pure Linux
butttttttttttttt
getting hibernate working perfectly in Linux on new hardware is PITA. I'm just happy with suspend working well, let alone hibernation.
Modern standby is the absolute shit of an invention.
This is the ONLY reason I wish I have a Mac. Forget all the memes and jokes about Apple, their laptops suspend very well. IIRC, they also have a hibernation timer built in, so if your laptop automatically hibernates after X hrs. But I dont want to be stuck in their ecosystem, so yeh...
Linux devs are not that keen to make hibernate work well either. Remember systemd dev forcefully removed the "suspend then hibernate" feature? You can still find the thread on Github lol.
this meme is really true for windows, sometimes my pc wakes up the second I put it to sleep. seems to be some random app I have open allowing it to wake up again. infuriating. With intel macs, they wasted a lot of battery asleep, but my silicon mac can sleep for weeks without losing hardly any battery. linux I still can't get sound to work properly.
I heard mac won't shutdown at all but only does sleep and someone mentioned any keypress will wake it from sleep so that you can't clean keyboard..
Forget all the memes and jokes about Apple, their laptops suspend very well
The advantage of Apple is that the number of possible hardware combinations is pretty small. With Windows / Linux it's nearly infinite.
With a small number of possible hardware configurations, it's much easier to get sleep/suspend to work well because you can test every possible hardware combination and make sure it works.
But yeah, their system is basically flawless.
Windows is too self-important. Daddy, chill.
So I dualboot and each time i shuts down, i get boot menu. Are you telling me that is not shutdown in windows?
I started down the Linux route over the weekend and put my computer in hibernation and couldn't figure out how to wake it up from its torpor without restarting. So I'm going with suspension for the time being
Firstly, welcome :)
Secondly, hibernation on Linux requires swap partition 2x size of the RAM. If you didn't set it big enough or did not set at all, hibernation wouldn't work. However if you set it correctly, there should be another reason to consider.
If you are not sure, you can use this command on terminal to compare your RAM and swap sizes. free -m
According to the FAQ I found, you mostly don't need double your RAM. Especially for systems with lots of memory, they suggest instead the swap should be the square root of the RAM if you don't hibernate. If you do it should be RAM + SQRT(RAM).
I'm not sure where the square root part comes from, but I think the general idea is that if you're using more swap than that, you should just add RAM.
I'm still trying to get hibernate working on Bazzite. I followed the instructions I found and got it to the point that "Hibernate" is showing up in the menu, and when I use that menu item it seems to be saving state, but on boot I can't get it to restore my previous session. I suspect it has to do with the Bazzite / Universal Blue bootc weirdness, but I haven't spent much time digging into it yet.
That's interesting. I guess I understand now why my 2 GB swap can get filled rather quickly. After I read that FAQ, I delved a little more and found this. Apparently it's not feasible to use hibernation if you have more than 64 GB RAM, well at least until we got much more faster SSDs it seems.
Not the same but if you're using KDE on Bazzite, KDE has a restore previous windows option (or something like that). You can use it until find a solution.
It looks like they say "not recommended" rather than "not feasible".
It's annoying when there's a doc like that without a date on it. That could be 10 years old now, and might not be taking into account NVMe drives.
And yeah, I've been using "restore previous session", but it's annoying because it's not restoring windows in their previous positions on their previous desktops. There is probably a way to enable it to remember previous window positions, but I've been trying to get hibernate working rather than poke at that. Besides, what I really want it to remember is my tmux windows and what they were running. That's really not possible without hibernation / sleep / suspend.
I'm sure I'll understand those words eventually. I wasn't sure what the difference was, so just tried hibernation. But I haven't tried any swapping of partitions or partitioning at all, it was just a standard debian install that gave me the option, which I haven't touched since.
Yeah, you will, in time. If I recall correctly, Debian gives 3 options for pre-set partitioning and the first one has just enough swap partition for normal usage, and the others are one with enough for hibernation and one with no swap. As for many things, hibernation is also optional in Linux world.
On Windows, there is something similar to swap called hiberfil.sys. You can delete that to gain space if you don't need hibernation. However unlike Windows, swap is also useful for things other than hibernation so we usually include it on our installations even if we have RAM more than 16 GB.
When you say hibernation, do you mean essentially powered off?
My understanding is that hibernation has always meant that the system is 100% off, but that when it next boots it can read from disk into RAM and then let you resume where you were before you shut down. I ask because "waking" a system in hibernate means turning it on, and it goes through the normal boot process. If it's still on in some way, that doesn't sound like hibernation to me. It sounds like "sleep" or "suspend" (ugh, but there are now annoying s states that add confusion to all that.)
This is actually the thing that originally triggered me into wiping my windows OS and switching to Linux a couple years back. Unbelievable that I can put my machine into long-term low power mode and minutes later windows is like 'lol, did you mean to click update??'
Can't believe how much better Linux is for 0$.
Ugh, the updates.....my work PC is Win 11, I got an email from IT last night telling me I had to install the latest update I had been putting off. This morning after I clocked out I started the update. I have 500 down and it took almost 2 hours to download and 3 hours later the installation is only at 53%. I'm just going to go to bed and hope it's done by the time I have to clock in tonight.
And my coworkers wonder why I prefer Linux.....
As sucky as modern Windows is, all you have to do to avoid this bullshit is to shut down the pc at night or whenever you're not using it. That being said, half the time Windows updates, it tries to sucker me into subbing for Microshart 365.
My only windows is force upon me as my work laptop. I sadly actually work for Microsoft. I literally only use it to SSH to my virtual machine running redhat.
Microsoft really enjoys forcing updates at the worst time when their employees are trying to work. Sometimes it literally just makes me stop working for that day. Their loss.
Until the next update reenables it.
Really the only OS that where hibernation and suspension works smooth enough for me has been MacOS so far. Windows wakes up the whole PC to do things. On Linux you get GPU related power state issues that cause weird things. On MacOS it has always "just worked" for me. Still not buying one though. Rather shut down my machine.
MacOS just working certainly has a lot more to do with supporting an exponentially smaller array of hardware than either Windows or Linux does.
If you're truly concerned about Microsoft re-enabling that task, it's puzzling that you would suggest an Apple product as an alternative.
They are as anti-choice as it gets.
happy atomic distro noises
Yeh seems fine tbh. Genuinely didn’t do anything special. Literally just slapped Kinoite onto a surprisingly useful little asus laptop I snapped up a while ago for a hilarious deal.
I mostly use it as a secondary computer near my bed stand when I remember I wanted to do some sort of thing on my system or homelab crap but it’s late and I don’t feel like getting out of bed. Crucial use case, to be honest.
Do you set it to do automatic login? I think mine is storing the current session to swap properly, but I haven't managed to get it to actually restore that session when booting yet. This is with Bazzite, which is a pretty close cousin of Kinoite, so it should be pretty similar.
Nope. I never ever configure my systems with autologin. Auth is always required to use my shit. It’s a good habit and I’m not breaking it lol :P
This would have to be enabled on the Motherboard or something because Hibernate is essentially a shutdown with the RAM saved into the Hard Drive, unless they've changed that.
Most modern mainboards don't even support ACPI S3/S4 anymore. The ACPI spec is pretty badly written and most implementations were flaky in some way. So when ACPI S0ix (aka Modern Standby) came around the old states were essentially abandoned.
Of course S0ix is less a hibernation and more kindly asking the OS to turn off the screen and consider using fewer resources.
My PC meaning "My" PC
All your base are belong to us.
What I really like about Linux (Mint) is the automation of updates. I had a similar feature enabled on Windows (10), but I still had to install most of it manually. With Linux (Mint) the automation works wonderfully and I have no stress. Another reason not to go back to Windows.
I agree with some comments here, hibernation/suspension has been tricky, I've always had minor bugs and like kinda major, screen.. lines? popping up and just not even working sometimes, welp. I suppose it's better knowing what's breaking than wrestling control between you and microsoft..
Mine just doesn't suspend/hibernate at all. Probably some dependency not installed, but I'm not assed to find out which one
Yeah I think it's going to show up in some log what exactly is causing that but I usually search what I'm supposed to do so.. do that if you have time I guess
Devils advocate time: Windows does this because users are stupid and will never update their PCs if they don't have to. I've met too many people who never update their tech. Operating systems and the software they run is far too complex to be 100% secure so we mitigate that by updates. They are a necessity. The vulnerability responsible for EternalBlue was patched and pushed with a windows update before the ransomware attack, how many users ignored it? Windows is so annoying with its updates because it has to be.
It does that once for me
Modern PCs don't truly hibernate, they sleep. If the tower loses power its considered a hard reset.
If anything, Windows machines often have 'fast boot' enabled which saves certain things to state, so today's manual shutdown (without power loss) is closer to old school hibernation than today's 'sleep' is.
You can shutdownyour PC each night, but depending on what you're working on it can disrupt workflow, so I understand why many people prefer to sleep instead.
@lemmy.world
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@lemmy.world
Hint: :q!
Community rules (click to expand)
sudo in Windows.We all have our opinions, and certain public figures can be divisive. Keep in mind that this is a community for memes and light-hearted fun, not for airing grievances or leveling accusations.
Please report posts and comments that break these rules!
Important: never execute code or follow advice that you don't understand or can't verify, especially here. The word of the day is credibility. This is a meme community -- even the most helpful comments might just be shitposts that can damage your system. Be aware, be smart, don't remove France.
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The main thing I'm learning from this thread is that a surprising number of people don't shut their machines down when they're done using them. Which is wild to me.
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