feddit.uk has been defederated from lemmy.blahaj.zone

a year ago by irelephant [he/him]🍭 to c/fediverselore

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/25042034

This post is "FYI only" for blahaj lemmy members. It is not a debate, and is not intended for non blahaj lemmy users to weigh in and offer opinions.

I recently received reports of a feddit.uk user espousing transphobia. Specifically, this was a feddit.uk user refusing to use the word cis, repeating the "adult human female" dog whistle, and claiming that trans women are not women. I approached a member of the feddit.uk admin team and raised my concerns and sought clarification of their stance on posts like this, where the transphobia is mostly dogwhistles, and "civil disagreement" on the validity of trans folk.

I was told by the feddit.uk admin that their preferred response is this kind of transphobia is to "sort it out through discussion and voting". However, the comments in question are currently more upvoted than downvoted, and little "sorting out" has occurred. The posts remain in place.

At this point, the admin stopped responding to my messages despite being active elsewhere on lemmy. When it became clear they were ignoring my messages and had no intention of removing the posts in question, I made the decision to defederate the instance.

I know some folk agree with the feddit.uk admins approach of pushback through discussion and voting, but this instance is not designed to be that kind of space. Blahaj lemmy is meant to be a place where we can avoid the rampant transphobia universally visible on nearly every other social media platform, and where we can exist without needing to debate our right to do so.

Irelephant 57 points a year ago

I think it seems justified. Ava's moderation approach may seem heavy handed, but she hasn't done anything unjustified.

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Carrolade 60 points a year ago

Yeah, this is just the Fediverse operating as intended. Some instances are heavily federated, others are less so. This gives people options.

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OpenStars 18 points a year ago

Moreover, it's her instance, and she can do whatever she wants with it.

Its users are free to leave whenever they wish, but I doubt many will as a result of this bc (a) Ada is awesome, and (b) the comments look strongly in her favor. Also (c) Ava's policies are clearly explained at the outset, and firmly and fairly applied.

Our approval outside of the situation does not matter in the slightest:-).

(That said, if it did, I would want to see some additional context, bc wine that phrase can be used as a dog whistle, I believe it may also be legitimate as well. I would strongly hope that the additional context in this case provided the justification that I can't fully see here. Which knowing Ada, seems highly likely. Edit: if this comment really is it, then nvm, I get it. Tbf that really does seem like a discussion that needs to be had among centrists, but I can totally see why Blåhaj doesn't want to federate that content and thereby host it on its own servers. So without prejudicial judgement either for or against the original comment, I definitely support Ada's call here. As I always end up doing when I dig deeply enough to see what's going on in each situation. I am not saying that I would have done it - perhaps a community block or other reduced feature could have been applied, but for her server, it's her right.)

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Irelephant 15 points a year ago

Most of the people who aren't in favor of it are not even on blahaj.

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OpenStars 4 points a year ago

They know who she (Ada) is - and that's why they are on blahaj in the first place!:-)

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BinzyBoi 7 points a year ago

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bestboyfriendintheworld 5 points a year ago

Do you have more details?

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BinzyBoi 4 points a year ago

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princessnorah 1 point a year ago

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/1204784

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PhilipTheBucket 51 points a year ago

For anyone who's curious about the actual messages, I think these are them:

A woman is an adult female. A transwoman is an adult female who used to be male. It’s not difficult to grasp that they are different things. You can admit that and still believe that transwomen should be treated with dignity like anyone else.

Personally I don’t give a shit what bathroom people use or what they want to be referred to. I’ll go along with whatever… But a woman and a transwoman are different things, and it’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise. Always have been different things and always will be, no matter what the law states, now or in the future.

Kier’s words are still not transphobia. There is no fear, dislike, prejudice, discrimination, harassment, or violence in his statement. The scream of ‘transphobia’ is thrown around too much for anyone who disagrees with a narrow definition. Any disagreement is labelled as hate, and it’s silly.

Should a transwoman have the same rights and respect and opportunity as a woman (as per the legal definition)? Absolutely. Are they the same? No, they are not. Is that a hateful bigoted viewpoint worthy of scorn? I don’t believe so.

I don’t use the term cis. I use the term woman and you knew exactly what I meant. A blonde woman is a description of a woman’s hair colour and is a semantic-based response that is nothing to do with this point. You know this; it’s a foolish riposte that’s nothing at all to do with the clear and simple fact that a woman who used to be a man is not the same thing as a (cis) woman.

I can call it a woman who used to have a penis or a woman who used to be a man if you want me to be pedantic about it. Nothing to do with hair colour, or skin colour, or anything else except previously being a biological male and now identifying as a woman.

‘adult human female’ is not a dog whistle. It’s a legal and common-sense definition that you clearly understand but are trying to make out to be hate for some reason. I am not denying the legitimacy of transwomen; nor is Keir.

Transwomen and (cis) women are different things. And Transmen and (cis) men are different things. They have different names, which you yourself use for a reason. That reason being they are not the same thing. This is exactly the same as saying transwomen are not women, because they are not. They are transwomen.

It’s pretty simple.

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TexMexBazooka 45 points a year ago

That’s actually not nearly as extreme as I was expecting

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driving_crooner 53 points a year ago

Just because it's have a cordial tone, but it's pretty tranphobic all around the place. Master class on sealioning.

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TexMexBazooka 40 points a year ago

I mean the basic argument, that trans identifying peoples are in their own distinct categories outside of the typical gender binary, actually has some interesting meat to it.

Trans men and women do have different experiences from their cisgender counterparts, different medical needs, different journeys. None of which I am experienced enough in the subject to speak to.

Kinda loses me on their “I don’t use the word cis” part though

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driving_crooner 18 points a year ago

Op argument is that they are Real Women and then then Women Who Used To Have Penis, reducing the trans experience and identify to the sex they were born into. The part of not using the word cis is not even the worst, imo, like using the word "thing" to talk about people is pretty disgusting, or comparing "blonde women" with "trans women" like if gender identity was just a superficial aspect of a person instead of the fundamental one it is.

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Irelephant 30 points a year ago

The UK is known for polite transphobia.

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Kaboom -4 points a year ago

Isn't that pretty much just JK Rowling? Iirc, the govt and BBC are pretty good about it

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Kusimulkku 11 points a year ago

Idk just saying that transwomen and cis women are different doesn't seem transphobic in and of itself, especially since the person seems to be saying that they should have the same rights now

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SorteKanin 16 points a year ago

Idk just saying that transwomen and cis women are different doesn’t seem transphobic in and of itself

Agreed - but the crucial point here is that the comment says that trans women are not women, which is a stance many would consider to be transphobia. I think the proper way to say it is that trans women and cis women are obviously not the same thing, but both are women.

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SkyezOpen 14 points a year ago

The whole "I'm not saying 'cis'" is the biggest red flag. Typically in their mind it's because cis means "normal" instead of just being an adjective. It's like the people that say they have nothing against the gays (TM) but they don't like it shoved in their faces. Nothing against them but don't exist near me energy.

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npcknapsack 11 points a year ago

It's a very polite post on the surface, but do note that they refer to trans women as "it". I think they're being very polite because they know that saying "I think trans women are just deluded men and I don't want to respect those things" doesn't go as well.

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Taleya 6 points a year ago

Question ya wanna ask yourself is "WHY do they wanna differentiate between the two?"

What is the purpose of that distinction?

Is it medical care? 'Cos specific considerations are the only nice reason i can think of why you'd need to do that. Can think of a lot of nasty reasons why though.

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Tar_alcaran 2 points a year ago

just saying that transwomen and cis women are different doesn't seem transphobic in and of itself,

Right, I agree, but that's not what they're saying. They're saying women and transwomen aren't the same.

As in, a rephrase of "transwomen aren't women".

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Taleya 8 points a year ago

It's worse imo, because it's the sneaky "reasonable" tactic that tries to pretend disconnection from its agenda. It's a filthy lying hat full of shit that doesn't even have the balls to present itself in truth.

And it works, because when people see straight through it and call it out for what it is, we end up with "concerned" and well meaning groups gathering themselves together discussing in depth whether or not it was reallly that bad and the overton window shifts further rightward.

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PhilipTheBucket 5 points a year ago

Blahaj admins trumping up something minor into a crisis so they can claim they're being discriminated against and enact a wild overreactive response?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I say. Well... not that shocked.

I mean in fairness, the original messages are a little bit ignorant yes. Mostly I was just trying to quote the accurate background material so people could see the primary source information.

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kbal 29 points a year ago

Thank you for posting it. Good to know that Blahaj made the right choice for its users, which really wasn't obvious otherwise.

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Dasus 19 points a year ago

I'm so annoyed by these pseudointellectuals who can't seem to grasp the relatively simple difference between "sex" and "gender".

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atro_city 7 points a year ago

I don't understand what this has to do with the difference between sex and gender. Is "woman" a sex or a gender?

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CanadianCorhen 10 points a year ago

'Female' is a sex, while 'woman' is a gender.

Sex refers to biological characteristics like chromosomes, hormones, and reproductive anatomy. That's why we say things like 'female dog' or 'male cat'—we're talking about biological sex, not identity.

Gender, on the other hand, is a social and cultural construct—it includes roles, behaviors, and identities that society associates with being a 'woman' or a 'man.' That's why it makes sense to say 'a woman wears makeup' or 'a man wears a suit,' but not 'a male wears makeup.' Saying 'a male wears makeup' sounds off because makeup is associated with gender expression, not biological sex.

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atro_city 5 points a year ago

The wikipedia article is a jumbled mess then.

A woman is an adult female human.

That seems to be an incorrect definition. Shouldn't it be "A woman is a human identifying as female"?

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Dasus 9 points a year ago

It can vary on the context, but "female" and "male" are "supposed" to refer to biological sex alone.

That's why it can be offensive when men talk about women as "females", and why it also would sound slightly silly to talk about — for instance — women penguins. "Female penguins" sounds much more correct, doesn't it?

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atro_city 6 points a year ago

So the problem is the word "female", not the word "woman", am I understand this correctly? If I am, then what should the correct sentence/statement be? "A woman is an adult ..."

I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely confused because I thought XX -> female, XY -> male, but there are a bunch of combinations that present themselves / have a male or female phenotype. Is woman supposed to be the gender and female the sex?

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stray 2 points a year ago

Women penguins only sounds weird because that's not the normal word for it. They're girl penguins or lady penguins. "Woman" feels too formal and human.

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DonAntonioMagino 2 points a year ago

I’ve never heard of a gender/sex distinction between ‘woman’ and ‘female’, what are you basing this on? By whom is this distinction ‘supposed’ (as you put it) to be a thing?

I doubt the general public would agree, anyway. In the Cambridge Dictionary, I find ‘female’ defined as ‘belonging or relating to women or girls’

You may of course argue your definition of ‘female’ should be the correct one, but it’s not the common one at the moment. I would think it’d be strange, though, if you couldn’t refer to a trans woman as ‘female’, which your distinction seems to imply.

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GiveOver 12 points a year ago

I disagree with this, and I'd downvote it, but it sounds like they're just repeating what the supreme court said. I don't think it deserves a ban.

Completely defederating with us over this is insane

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stray 8 points a year ago

Well, they're right that it is pretty simple. Here's a fun experiment for anyone who thinks this isn't transphobic: try reading it again, but substitute black for trans. Totally reasonable they should have to use another bathroom, right?

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Skiluros -3 points a year ago

Did you even read the text?

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stray 16 points a year ago

Did you? They spent the whole post arguing that a trans woman is not a woman. To clarify, a cis woman and a trans woman are different things. Both of these things are women. Cis and trans describe the women.

Some trans women may identify with having once been a man, but it's hardly the case for all of them, especially the ones who recognized their mistaken assignment early. She was always herself. She was never a man unless she herself identified as one.

The wording "used to be a man" and "used to have a penis" makes me wonder if this person is using genital surgery as a determining factor. It's thankfully becoming very acceptable these days to be a girl with a penis or boy with a vagina, so that such surgeries are more of a personal decision rather than a means of legitimizing oneself to society.

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Skiluros -5 points a year ago

You're "experiment" does not make sense.

From another one of my posts referring to your "experiment":

The end result of your line of thinking is that one cannot recognize their own ethnicity as that would be racist.

It would be like you telling an ethnic Lemkos that it’s racist for them to claim they are not white.

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Skiluros -4 points a year ago

Wow, de-federation (and trying to imply feddit.uk is transphobic) over this?

This is definitely acting in bad faith.

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MemmingenFan923 48 points a year ago

Defederate an instance because of a single problematic user doesn't feel right.

But also defederate an instance because their admins don't comply their own rules doesn't feel wrong.

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flicker 68 points a year ago

I'd argue it wasn't defederated because of one user, it was defederating because of a fundamental disagreement in moderation policies.

The one user could've been saying anything people could find deplorable. It was that the admin chose to be hands-off about it that pulled the trigger.

Which is a good thing, in that servers are allowed to decide how they want to handle moderation, and other server owners are allowed to decide if they accept that, or if they expect the moderation will lead to continued problems of the same vein down the road. The fediverse working as intended.

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Dragonstaff 17 points a year ago

Well said. It's curious how marginalized people's decisions to protect themselves are always up for debate. If someone doesn't agree with this moderation decision, cool, don't use Blahaj.

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Skiluros 1 point a year ago

But also defederate an instance because their admins don’t comply their own rules doesn’t feel wrong.

Read the "offending" text:

https://sh.itjust.works/post/36737764/18213591

This is hardly transphobia.

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SorteKanin 16 points a year ago

This is hardly transphobia.

Depends - many people would say that not including transwomen in the category of "women" (without qualifier) is transphobia, and the comment literally says:

This is exactly the same as saying transwomen are not women, because they are not. They are transwomen.

So the comment is basically arguing that "women" should only be used to mean "cis women", which some might (perhaps rightfully) consider transphobia.

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spooky2092 8 points a year ago

One of the responses in that thread had the right idea

Well, they’re right that it is pretty simple. Here’s a fun experiment for anyone who thinks this isn’t transphobic: try reading it again, but substitute black for trans. Totally reasonable they should have to use another bathroom, right?

If you read the message that way and substitute the gender component for racial equivalents, I'd love for you to explain how the message isn't racist. And I'm sure there would be plenty of "moderate whites" that would have gladly explained it to me back then too.

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vga 1 point a year ago

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vga 1 point a year ago

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Skiluros -6 points a year ago

The end result of your line of thinking is that one cannot recognize their own ethnicity as that would be racist.

It would be like you telling an ethnic Lemkos that it's racist for them to claim they are not white.

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spooky2092 4 points a year ago

Except this is someone else talking about a group they're not a part of. Your comment is not related to the comment question, given the context.

Edit: and no explanation of how the original statement wasn't transphobic/racist after being aubstituted....

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Taleya 8 points a year ago

Seperate but equal, ey buddy?

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Skiluros -6 points a year ago

Where does it say that? Please cite the exact part that calls for "separate" approach.

Be clear and specific.

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Dragonstaff -2 points a year ago

Funnily enough, nobody cares about your opinion. You're welcome to make whatever decisions you want, just like the people on Blahaj can say that is transphobia.

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flamingos 45 points a year ago

Hi, Feddit UK admin here, I'd just like to add a bit more context. We're currently discussing these comments in an admin chat, though this was apparently not communicated to Ada so she got the impression inaction was our position. Our position is not inaction, but these specific comments have become wrapped up in a policy discussion on how we facilitate discussion of our state's increasing hostile actions without allowing transphobia to propagate. I hope we can rectify the situation soon, but doing things by committee is never swift.

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Irelephant 27 points a year ago

Ada has said that she defederated because of a lack of response, not the content itself.

Extra context is helpful, thanks.

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Shadow 2 points a year ago

So it's been 2 weeks, what's happened? Cause it still feels like nothing but inaction, unless there was a followup I missed.

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flamingos 6 points a year ago

The comments in question were removed last week and our internal position has been clarified, that there's no need to change our working definition of transphobia, albeit with some new considerations to allow people to talk about the transphobic actions of the British state. We want to make a statement, but the others seem busy with things outside of Lemmy.

I'm currently working on some guidelines for c/uk_politics to help potentially less informed users navigate the current situation without inadvertently being transphobic.

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Blaze 2 points a year ago

Thank you. Looking forward that announcement, hopefully that they convince Blahaj to redeferate

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flamingos 3 points a year ago

Yeah, I hope the guidelines help. I really want to believe that a lot of attitudes we see about trans people are from a place of ignorance rather than malice, though I do fear that I'm being naïve. The admin statement will, frustratingly, take awhile, if at all, as it's been two weeks since I've heard from another admin, unless I make one unilaterally.

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Squiggles1212 -1 points a year ago

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Irelephant 5 points a year ago

Barely anyone on blahaj disagrees, but people on other servers have different opinions.

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sunzu2 -13 points a year ago

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Dragonstaff 15 points a year ago

Yes. Blahaj's decisive reaction should show the correct behavior to take. Late is better than never.

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sunzu2 -9 points a year ago

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qevlarr 3 points a year ago

What specifically?

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sunzu2 -12 points a year ago

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Rentlar 43 points a year ago

While the underlying issue swirling around the UK courts' confusion of gender vs. sex, male vs. female is just as confusing to me and I have no clear answers for that, the Blahaj admin's move is I think the right one.

That instance prides itself as being a safe-space for LGBTQ+ folks, so explicitly allowing behaviour that does not recognize its users' identities, is reasonable grounds for defederation.

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Lemminary -8 points a year ago

prides itself as being a safe-space for LGBTQ+ folks

I wish that were true. They're banning people over the stupidest shit regardless if you're queer yourself. 😂 Fuck that place, that's not my community.

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Taleya 15 points a year ago

Lotta people whining on that front...and in every case i've seen it's because they've been an outright transphobic dick, or doubled down and continued to spout harmful rhetoric after being warned they're doing so.

An instance full of trans people does not owe their abusers a voice.

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Lemminary 1 point a year ago

And people who are not being transphobic are being called so by finding abuse where there's none. Then screeched them out of existence. Their user base represents the abrasive underbelly of the trans community that prioritizes pedantry over building bridges. They're too thirsty for a witch hunt and suffer from Being Always Right.

Why is everyone who disagrees suddenly wrong by default and accused of being abusive about inconsequential shit? Because you may hear a lot of stories about actual abuse but I'm saying not everyone is and yet they're treated much the same.

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Taleya 4 points a year ago

Hahahah the cases i'm talking about are ones that end up on yepowertrippingbastards

So you know, posts that end up on another instance, devoid of investment where third parties stick their noses in. And say to the people complaining about bans: "You Deserved It"

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Tar_alcaran 4 points a year ago

Why is everyone who disagrees suddenly wrong by default

If you disagree with "trans people are people and deserve to be treated well", then you are indeed wrong by default

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limer 36 points a year ago

I think it’s healthy for admins to defederate, for whatever reason, from their choice of other instances.

If this is not done enough, then we will end up with few instances dominating the ebb and flow of discussion and content. And making it difficult for voices to be heard.

If done too much, and there are many tiny clusters of communities, there are social forces that will make many of these network closer.

If we did this more, it will break the monopoly of the large instances we see today, and better things can grow

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southsamurai 16 points a year ago

I'm coming to this specific post late.

But I do wanna say that I've had interactions with the .uk admins over the last year or so. Their user histories exist.

I think it important to note that the individual admins have been public in their support of trans issues. While the slow response is definitely an issue, try not to villainize them without something concrete to back that up. Any of us that disagree with the delay in particular (and please note the inclusive plural), remember that someone can make a bad choice and still be an ally.

Yeah, the optimum response would have been immediate action via comment removals, with debate to follow and reinstatement if merited after debate; combined with prompt communication (within a realistic range of prompt for someone not glued to their instance 24/7). But optimum isn't always going to happen. My grumpy, cantankerous old ass is not often optimum, so I sure can't hold delays and iffy reasoning against anyone else, as long as they get there eventually.

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Blaze 8 points a year ago

Another thread on !fediverse@piefed.social

https://lemmyverse.link/...

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driving_crooner 4 points a year ago

I asked the admin of my instance to defederate as well in a show of solidarity.

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Irelephant 18 points a year ago

From blahaj or .uk?

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driving_crooner 17 points a year ago

Lmao, from feddit.uk.

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MemmingenFan923 11 points a year ago

Why not both? Buy a defederation and get another one for free.

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Skiluros 9 points a year ago

You should let the admins read the text for themselves first and make a decision.

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timestatic 7 points a year ago

It seems like the feddit.uk admins are currently reviewing this and thats why they didn't respond. They should've said they were reviewing it instead of saying nothing but let them issue their statement before defederating as well. Maybe you don't follow communities from .uk that much but others would miss out on stuff. I think its wrong to label .uk as entirely transphobic bc of this

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UnderpantsWeevil 3 points a year ago

Transphobia? In the United Kingdom, you say?

I am dumbstruck.

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Squiggles1212 -3 points a year ago

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Irelephant 3 points a year ago

Getting defederated from blahaj?

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MummysLittleBloodSlut -3 points a year ago

World next. They do just as little about their transphobia

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DacoTaco 10 points a year ago

As a .world user id be sad if it got defederated. I like my content to have all kind of point of views (if discussions are civil).
I have yet to see any large influx of transphobia comments, but will say i haven't read much comments in general.

I wonder if lemmy has a system to ban users from an instance without defederating? It should only be a last resort..

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kittenzrulz123 2 points a year ago

Agreed, if world was defederated little of value would be lost

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suckmykong -2 points a year ago

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Snowpix 9 points a year ago

You sure know a lot about .world for an 8 hour old account. Actually, wait... Relentless attacks against Americans? Bitching about .world? Lemmy.cafe instance? Hi Antiyanks! Nice seeing you again on your over 150th account by now.

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SRo -10 points a year ago

Good for UK.

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sunzu2 -24 points a year ago

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knightly 20 points a year ago

Read The Parable of the Nazi Bar.

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Squiggles1212 -2 points a year ago

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Skiluros -5 points a year ago

How is this relevant?

Did you read the alleged offending text? It's not transphobic, let alone Nazi.

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sunzu2 2 points a year ago

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Skiluros 0 points a year ago

Sorry, who is Leni?

I wouldn't leave it to just trolling and illegal stuff. Spamming obvious propaganda, shitting up a digital space with dumb bullshit (doesn't have to political, just distracting and irrelevant), commercial spam, baiting users to piss them off. There are many situations were mod actions are justified.

But this is definitely not the case.

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sunzu2 -16 points a year ago

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knightly 28 points a year ago

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Squiggles1212 -2 points a year ago

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sunzu2 -16 points a year ago

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southsamurai 6 points a year ago

"These people"

For crying out loud.

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sunzu2 1 point a year ago

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southsamurai 0 points a year ago

That doesn't make it better.

It makes it more smug and condescending.

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sunzu2 1 point a year ago

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