Why? We aren't taking care of our people. I'm sure many of them feel the same way or close. Lots of people don't want to live in misery, especially when they realize most of it is an actively created construct by others. If you combine that with the very common belief in an afterlife, it becomes a very obvious and likely path.
That post seems to be missing.
Lemming6969 21 points a year ago
MetalMachine 3 points a year ago
Could you explain how a belief in an afterlife is a factor in this? Wouldn't be the other way because you would be held accountable for your actions?
Lemming6969 2 points a year ago
To add to the other comment, the two concepts of an afterlife and punishment or reward are separate concepts and don't have to coincide. Some faiths explicitly believe in heaven and not hell, and some neither.
Always remember when thinking about possibilities, given totally made up shit, the answer is always all possibilities exist and must be considered.
SolarMonkey 1 point a year ago
Not who you replied to but: If you believe a soul is created at conception, and that fetuses that are never born alive and baptized automatically go to heaven, yourself being sent to hell would logically be a sacrifice for the greater good to spare suffering and guarantee a place in heaven for the embryos.
spaghettiwestern 27 points a year ago
He seems to deliberately chosen a day when the offices were closed, so perhaps he wasn't trying to hurt other people. It would have been so much worse if this had been done on a weekday.
andybytes -1 points a year ago
Indirectly or directly, the deep state created this kid. I got the same opinions too man, and I'd rather shoot my head off with a shotgun before I go around and roll in the mud like these fucking Yankee soldier boys. You literally cannot trust anything anymore. You have to have strong framework to see through all the bullshit. I would Google the Imperial Boomerang or in the Intelligence Department, they call it blowback. There's also a book by Barbara Walters, How Civil Wars Start and How to Stop Them. She is an exCIA analyst. Anyways, no war with the class war.
Etterra 52 points a year ago
I resent having no means to have consented to my existence as the next nihilist, but you don't see me taking it out on everybody else. Just take antidepressants and bitch on the Internet like a civilized misanthrope.
manxu 45 points a year ago
There was a time, almost exactly 2000 years ago, when you could take for granted that people loved being alive and loved themselves. So much so that a source from the period said, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater [...]"
Maybe the big question should not be whether someone can consent to being brought to life, but why on earth we find ourselves in a world where people question what was so obvious in the past. That is, the problem is not whether we should have children or not, but how to ensure that the children we have, love living in the world we make for them.
spaghettiwestern 18 points a year ago
Around 2000 years ago the Romans held slaves and were crucifying people by the thousands. Amphitheaters hosted gladiator games and executions while huge crowds watched. A quick count on Wikipedia lists more than 40 wars just involving Rome from 200 BC to 200 AD and there were dozens of wars involving China during the same period. There were undoubtedly hundreds if not thousands of additional undocumented battles around the world.
There's plenty of evidence that 2000 years ago you could not "take it for granted that people loved being alive and loved themselves", including the fact that a "source" would feel it necessary to issue an order requiring people to love their neighbors.
jaybone 8 points a year ago
And quality of life was so much shittier without modern medicine. This is why people would have like eight kids. Since half of them wouldn’t survive infancy. And the mentality or motivation to do such a thing only comes from this propaganda which is what guy in OP is apparently complaining about.
I_Has_A_Hat 10 points a year ago
Shut up and get back to work! You must create capital for those at the top to enjoy, this is the only point to life.
manxu 2 points a year ago
The three commandments you mention are from the Ten Commandments, Old Testament stuff. There is one commandment listed before this one, and it's to love God above all else. The ellipsis at the end of my quote stands for, "than these."
MetalMachine 0 points a year ago
Because we live in a time in history that is like no other. In comparison to the past, we have access to foods and clothes that kings can only dream of. Prosperity is in abundance for many (relatively speaking to the past) and many are far detached from violence.
(Minus places like Gaza and many others across the world)
My guess is these conditions plus the breakdown in family and community bonds is what creates these characters who do things like this.
jj4211 -1 points a year ago
Your theory is that things are so good it contributed to someone bombing a fertility clinic our of nihilism?
I'll agree that the "good old days" perspective is wrong, that people have always managed to make each other miserable. I'll extend that further to say that "characters like this" also aren't new. Crazy murderous guys are throughout history. This one making global news kind of shows how very particular and rare this brand of character is.
MetalMachine 1 point a year ago
Ah yes, let me completely ignore what the person wrote and ignore the fact that they also mentioned that a break down in community and family bonds contributes to these issues.
How can I take you seriously when you straw man me like this?
jj4211 0 points a year ago
I referenced both parts of your comment. First that things were good without any segue as to why you think this contributes.
Then to your assertion that we now have these and didn't have then before due to lack of community, and I find that to be odd to say about a currently isolated incident that had nearly zero precedent.
SaladKing 39 points a year ago
Man, the US is ultra-mega-fucked. I do not think they will fix their problem anytime soon. This is going to reach a fever pitch at some point in the future where they will repeat their own past or the mistakes of other nations that have fallen in the past. The slow decay of society.
Azal 1 point a year ago
I mean sure... but how the fuck does one fix when the population of a country is now living in two separate realities? I make my comment because our political divide is still the same ones that lead to the original Civil War and the wounds have been allowed to fester for the past century and a half. So now we're a country where both sides are sure the other side is morally evil... and honestly I'm at the point where I can't even disagree with that when I understand that's a problem so I'm definitely at... well... we're fucked?
If you got a better idea... good luck.
SCmSTR 1 point a year ago
A lot of us recognize the problems. There are just too many and this country is fubar. Why do I still live here? I can't leave now. And before, myself and my partner are too established, and the very real threat of needing to leave was so horrible that we were in shock. Like a horrible gut feeling of cognitive dissonance - I know it's a problem, but I'd much rather just have nightmares and die, I guess. Also ptsd and adhd, and living in a very educated, very liberal state in a VERY liberal area helps dramatically lower the immediate risk and need for action, giving us hope that our locales can protect us from having to uproot everything and take several years, again, to get potentially re-established.
Allonzee 4 points a year ago
If it isn't recognition of the glorification of something that shouldn't even be tolerated and should be legislated out of being practiced with punishments that compete with hate crimes, then no we don't recognize the problem. And most people who are even against Trump don't. It is his signature brand and why he represents our people as they are perfectly. (I voted against him every time for the record, but he is a monument to our culture's sins. He's like the zeitgeist of the United States of America anthropomorphized into human form.)
That something being avarice.
There was a time when there was mass recognition of the problem, but the Mr. Potters of the world got control when they convinced the masses herp derp you could be rich and shit on your neighbors too! The George Baileys arguing for taking what you need and no more, for community, and most importantly for telling the greed class "No, and by the way fuck you for offering your faustian bargain" lost and died.
The types most laughed at for occupying Wall Street. We clearly don't recognize the problem, because I hear almost nothing about razing the capital markets to cinder. Those rigged casinos that commoditize our very humanity to be bought, sold, and betrayed when profitable, those market's utter conquest of their regulators and government need to be destroyed, their arbitrary tabulations of "value" erased, and currency retied to either honest labor, or benefitting directly those who labored for the value of products/services.
Without that, today is the best day of the rest of our lives, and sadly, few recognize that fact. On the bright side, if we don't, and we know we won't because our population has been made too ignorant to, capital market made climate change will do our job for us and wipe those markets clean, along with every other aspect of civilization in just a few decades. We have no reason not to stop them save our subsistence opiates like social media and fast food, and that, pathetically myself included, appears to be enough.
captainlezbian 1 point a year ago
OK but the American political zeitgeist is extremists following through on their values. It's ideologically rooted acts of mass violence
mctoasterson 39 points a year ago
That is literally the most California of the options for this nutballs motivation.
For reference in case anyone isn't familiar - 29 Palms is a small shitty city in the inland area where it is hotter than piss, and dry. There is a Navy and Marine Corps installation there and not much else. If I recall correctly it is considered to be one of the shittiest places to be sent by Marines.
raltoid 13 points a year ago
About thirty thousand people, it's in the Mojave, one of the stopping places before entering a national park, military installation and the local college has a special section on their website about offering programs to military personnel, specially about HVAC.
I've been to places like that, and I strongly recommend never staying overnight. And if you have to, stay in your room and do not go to a local establishment that serves alchol.
Confused_Emus 34 points a year ago
Clears up my confusion on why someone would bomb an IVF clinic - that’s usually reserved for abortion clinics among American nutters.
DragonSidedD 10 points a year ago
Same here. I very nearly posted a $1,000 bet that whoever did this, they had a Sky Daddy, and another $1,000 that said person would directly attribute their belief in said Sky Daddy in why they were motivated to do this in the first place.
Come to think of it, this angry nutter saved me $2,000 today.
I guess the nicest thing I can do in return is point out that I'd happily be taxed more to get more competent social workers and psychologists into schools and normalize getting help especially in earlier years before pathology becomes deeply internalized.
Revan343 8 points a year ago
There's an angle to bomb it from that end, as well: if life begins at fertilization, then IFV involves a whole bunch of murders.
Their stance on IVF is often a good tell as to whether an anti-abortionist is a grifter or a true believer. Spoiler: it's mostly grifters
Generic_Idiot 27 points a year ago
Cos he’s angry he exists, he’ll hurt other people who want to exist.
I can’t imagine a bigger piece of shit.
He could just kill himself and be done with it, that is an option.
floofloof 15 points a year ago
People existing who didn't consent must be all people, so I guess he was just angry that people exist and saw the IVF clinic as something that helps make people exist. I can kind of see the logic, though he seems to have answered his own question about stupid.
EndlessNightmare 1 point a year ago
I think 4 people were injured, as I saw from other articles on this. It isn't clear if these injuries were to people inside the building or elsewhere.
jordanlund -2 points a year ago
Even killing himself is still dragging other people into his bullshit. Somebody has to discover the body, call the authorities, there's an investigation, and crime scene clean up, etc. etc.
This causes ongoing trauma to everyone involved, but he's too self centered to see that.
RedditRefugee69 7 points a year ago
Why do you say he has BPD?
Kolanaki 4 points a year ago
I'd like to know too. The only thing I can find suggesting this outside of the above comment is a thread on Reddit where someone also just casually says he had BPD with no proof.
null_dot 28 points a year ago
Pretty strong here on Lemmy too.
I get why people might choose not to have children, but to assert that others shouldn't is a whole other thing.
Just in the last few days there was a post about how climate change is going to effect children born today - comments were pretty wild.
raltoid 23 points a year ago
I tried looking up some communities after I saw people complain about them. And 99.9999% of it is people venting about being told for the 50th time in twenty years that they'll change their mind about having kids any day now. Or doctors refusing hysterectomies to unmarried women because they don't have their husband consent(this still regularly happens in the US and Europe. To the point where there are resources where you can look up doctors who aren't living in the 50s). Then you see the community brought up by other people and they're often described as filled with people who want to murder children.
It's honestly quite wild how much people take those generalized accusations at face value because they saw one or two peoeple say something inappropriate.
floofloof 2 points a year ago
I have kids (some grown up) and sometimes spontaneously have this worry myself, just from looking at the news, especially the climate destruction and the persecution of LGBTQ+ people since none of my kids fit the "straight white cis men only" template of the right. When I was young I was quite clear that I didn't want to have kids in a society that was destroying its planet. But adult decisions can be more complex and life went a different way.
TrickDacy -1 points a year ago
Yeah, the people always ragging on anti natalists honestly are liars. They are really just touchy and insecure about their decision to have kids. They have to justify that decision by demonizing anyone's decision to the contrary
jj4211 -1 points a year ago
This comment in the context of a guy bombing other people's IVF attempts? It's a valid choice to opt out for oneself, it's certainly not valid to force others to opt out.
Somewhere in the middle are the folks that take any opportunity to talk about how they think anyone having a kid is highly irresponsible, standing in judgement of people who have even one kid.
I don't care if you want to refrain from kids and stand by that decision. Closest I'll come to not minding my own business is to mention that people can change their minds, so you may want to hedge your bets with something reversible like an IUD instead of a hysterectomy, but ultimately you may stand by the decision and that's all your business.
floofloof 12 points a year ago
Arguing that people should consider not having kids because of the state of the climate, cost of living, state of society, overpopulation, or whatever, is fine as long as it is done respectfully of other people's freedom to decide. But evidently that was not bombing guy's approach.
EndlessNightmare 2 points a year ago
I get why people might choose not to have children, but to assert that others shouldn’t is a whole other thing.
Plenty of people seem to have no problem asserting that others should have children.
But really, the problem isn't about asserting what one should/shouldn't do. At that stage, it is still just one's opinion. It becomes a problem when someone resorts to using intimidation, coercion, or outright violence to try and impose one's will.
EndlessNightmare 1 point a year ago
I’ve never encountered the problem of being told I should have children
Childfree people encounter this all the time.
nor intimidation, coercion, or violence.
It can happen in abusive relationships, but it would be rare in more general situations.
Deceptichum 28 points a year ago path: 0 17117587 17117658 17117711, hotness: undefined, score: 28, children: 7
EndlessNightmare 3 points a year ago
It's more like the real problem here is extremism. Taking any belief to an absolutist and extreme degree is a problem. This also includes values and positions that are considered mainstream.
LibertyLizard -1 points a year ago
Not really. This is the same pants-on-head level reasoning that leads people to oppose medical procedures on animals or even suggest that we should kill them to avoid suffering merely because they can’t consent to anything. Just because they can’t consent doesn’t mean we can’t infer what their interests are.
Most of these people are just depressed and universalize that experience onto everyone else. But the reality is that most people are glad they were born, and parents can reasonably predict how the lives of their children will be. People who can’t provide a good environment for their kids should abstain, but I would even argue that for those who can, having kids is morally good since it brings the joys of life to more people.
TrickDacy -2 points a year ago
Not really. Just because you find something unethical doesn't mean any of the shit you're writing and implying here. You want people to think those random Redditors are murderers or would want to be but we both know that's false.
3dmvr 16 points a year ago
I never wanted to exist is soemthing I felt a lot when I realized death was a thing as a kid and religion felt fake, so I kinda get it, but its very extremist to the point of feeling like its out of a fantasy world, like no more humans because existence is suffering lol
sin_free_for_00_days 10 points a year ago
I admit that I agree with the dude, but not to the point I'm going to start killing people over that belief.
chunkystyles 5 points a year ago
Honestly, I think bringing children into this world right now is irresponsible. But that's my opinion
GregorGizeh -16 points a year ago
These guys exist on lemmy as well. I'm not sure what sort of people are attracted to that doomer ideology but I fucking hate that defeatist mentality.
Oh I didn't ask to be born, we have too many people anyway, you're so irresponsible to have kids with climate change and fascism and all, entirely ignoring the fact that this is at best a niche ideology amongst the educated part of western societies and will have zero bearing on the future aside from diminishing that specific demographic.
If anything those people, the educated and skilled, should be reproducing more, not less, because ensuring a liveable tomorrow needs these kids. Your psy ops idea has some merit as well, it really seems odd that only western "liberal elites" are buying into this insanity.
E: your boos mean nothing I have seen what makes you people cheer
ZILtoid1991 10 points a year ago
But hear me out, what if the terrorist just went to church, and talked to the priest, for free?
(Yes, right-wing politicians really think like that)
you_are_it 22 points a year ago
I have seen this kind of statement in some other place multiple times... guess this guy really didn't find any beauty in life. It is hard to take seriously that someone would really go there this far.. he could have just killed him self
Duke_Nukem_1990 17 points a year ago
It's not. One of the core concepts of AN, the reason for it all really, is that suffering is bad. One consequence is that procreation holds a negative moral value, however another is that you should not cause suffering e.g. by fucking blowing people up.
Duke_Nukem_1990 1 point a year ago
you have the same arguments
Weird how my argument is "Don't create suffering by bombing people."
and his argument was "Imma go bomb some people."
Your comment reeks of ignorance of the whole topic. Perhaps you should get educated on AN before spouting lies.
EndlessNightmare 15 points a year ago
They are not the same thing
eugenevdebs 8 points a year ago
Hi, Anti-Natalist here, I am not pro-murder. Murder is harm, and anti-natalism is about preventing harm.
grrgyle 5 points a year ago
Yeah I'm anti-natalist and think making children is selfish and immoral so long as there are actual living orphans, who only wish someone would adopt them. I view making a new person like turning your back on the actual child that you could have adopted, if you weren't so gene drunk and obsessed with building from scratch.
But I understand the biological imperative is too strong for most. It's part of our nature, so you shouldn't really get too disappointed in people. Not to the point of blowing shit up anyway.
Guns0rWeD13 2 points a year ago
i've dabbled around in the anti natalist world before. i definitely shared some of their sentiments, but soon found that whole crowd to be pretty unbearable. not surprised you're getting downvoted by them for your completely sane statement.
DeathsEmbrace 1 point a year ago path: 0 17128707 17128853 17128947, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
EndlessNightmare 2 points a year ago
He would have done more in the service of antinatalism by becoming a doctor and performing sterilization surgeries; lots of childfree people who want to get sterilization have a difficult time finding a doctor willing to perform the procedure. He would be providing the market with an in-demand service.
Or barring medical skills, donating money to various organizations (e.g. Planned Parenthood) that would advance his cause.
heyWhatsay 16 points a year ago
From what I'm seeing reported in US, they haven't released the name, and mention "posted rambling online writings"
So, I'm glad I read my news from multiple sources, including here. Context is an important part of understanding what the hell is going on in the world.
null_dot 15 points a year ago
nobody got my consent to bring me here
I think every child tries this once. Parent says "I brought you in to this world and I raised you up so I deserve a little respect" or similar. Yes demanding respect like this is a dick move and a great example of toxic parenting, but it's the style of parenting most millennials encountered. Child responds "well I never asked to be born".
The obvious problem is... it's not possible to ask someone whether they would like to be conceived prior to conception.
How much more stupid can it get?
Well, if adults are trying this "I never asked to be born" shit I guess it can't get much stupider.
spaghettiwestern 18 points a year ago
He said he had been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. So it's mental illness and just fucking sad.
datavoid 1 point a year ago
Good point, maybe he shouldn't have hurt anyone though. I'm pretty indifferent on blowing up a fertility clinic however, I assume everything they did was insured and I can certainly understand the guy's point of view.
falcunculus 8 points a year ago
The obvious problem is... it's not possible to ask someone whether they would like to be conceived prior to conception.
Agreed, but how do you go from that to "therefore it's fine to conceive"?
If someone at a party is passed out and therefore it's not possible to communicate with them, we assume they don't consent to anything. Why doesn't the same reasoning apply here?
shiroininja 5 points a year ago
It’s entirely possible to answer. I answer this question all the time in my head because I don’t like living.
My answer is “I wouldn’t feel anything if I wasn’t conceived., because I wouldn’t exist and wouldn’t have feelings to feel. So it’s a non question.”
It’s my same answer to “what if your parents decided to abort you?” Asked by pro-lifers.
EndlessNightmare 4 points a year ago
It’s my same answer to “what if your parents decided to abort you?” Asked by pro-lifers.
I get a chuckle out of this. It isn't the threat that they think it is.
shiroininja 3 points a year ago
Seriously lol
null_dot 4 points a year ago
Someone passed out at a party will wake up sooner or later. Their lack of ability to consent is temporary.
The ability to pro-create is a fundamental element of "life". I'm not going to engage with an argument that it's unethical, sorry.
falcunculus 6 points a year ago
That's fine, but there's no rational basis for your position, and therefore no reason to call the dude "stupid" regarding that. He thinks life sucks and you don't but that's just a difference in values.
EndlessNightmare 1 point a year ago
Someone passed out at a party will wake up sooner or later. Their lack of ability to consent is temporary.
Someone who hasn't been conceived yet will be born sooner or later (following successful conception and gestation). Their lack of ability to consent is temporary.
null_dot 2 points a year ago
Come on mate. Just to point out the obvious here...
The ability of a yet-to-be-conceived entity to consent to being conceived is not temporary, given that its not possible to consent to something retrospectively.
spaghettiwestern -2 points a year ago
This post was created Saturday night at 10:30 PM. This information was not being reported at any U.S. news site at that time.
You're complaining that 2 days later something in this post is no longer accurate?
spaghettiwestern 0 points a year ago
There were zero details reported about the bomber in the U.S. at 10:30pm PDT on Saturday night. You obviously weren't searching for information at that time, despite your claims otherwise.
Making an issue about this 2 days later is ridiculous and discussion with a contrarian is always a waste of time.
Wilco 0 points a year ago
As I said, we heard that it happened that same day without details. The information regarding the bomber came a 12-24 hours later.
You should always call out conspiracy theories such as this. How would the US suppress this? Most of us talk to people in other countries. Suppression of this story is just a dumb conspiracy.
Here are the facts: You are a liar. You are spreading disinformation. The person that posted this is lying. They are spreading disinformation.
Source (New York Times) https://www.nytimes.com/...
Buddahriffic -1 points a year ago
One thing that has always seemed a bit ironic to me about any kind of anti-natalist is if they're so sure that bringing another being into existence is cruel to that being, why don't they kill themselves instead of trying to shame others or bomb clinics? Sure, they didn't consent to being here, but there's other options that don't involve needing to stay here.
And no, this isn't advocating suicide, but more calling out BS on the entire position because they do consent to remaining here.
spaghettiwestern 3 points a year ago
why don’t they kill themselves instead of trying to shame others or bomb clinics?
IMO if our society made painless suicide achievable many would choose it. Even with a terminal medical condition, euthanasia is very expensive and nearly impossible even in places it is legal.
Wilco -2 points a year ago
Just to clarify. This is misinformation. OP is lying. The New York Times and other news outlets reported the bombing the same day, then gave more details 12-24 hours later.
This person is a liar. This is disinformation.
Source (New York Times) https://www.nytimes.com/...
spaghettiwestern 2 points a year ago
Are you completely illiterate, or do you just make things up for fun?
THERE IS NO INFORMATION ABOUT THE BOMBER AT THE LINK YOU PROVIDED. NONE.
Before accusing others of lying get your own fucking facts straight.
Guns0rWeD13 4 points a year ago path: 0 17135601 17140777, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
KulunkelBoom -10 points a year ago
So the brain damaged fuck blows up the place that stops others from being born against their will. No wonder trump won - our citizens are fucking stupid.
SoftestSapphic -11 points a year ago
Oh he specifically targeted the site when there was nobody there.
I literally have no problem with this.
Hopefully antinatalism isn't targeted by the MsM as a wedge issue for this, it's an important ideology for sustainabily progressing humanity.
Rancor_Tangerine -5 points a year ago path: 0 17142485 17146071, hotness: undefined, score: -5, children: 2
SoftestSapphic 1 point a year ago
Understanding that any child born today will suffer way more than any American has in a century and then choosing to have kids anyway is a selfish and malicious act.
YiddishMcSquidish 0 points a year ago
That K line is approaching real quick.
thanks for using Leebra!
go to feed...
If this is accurate it’s way weirder than anything I had on my radar.
save