With the Legion Go S, we can now directly compare performance between official builds of SteamOS and Windows
a year ago by Fubarberry to c/steamdeck
Source is this video:
Windows Was The Problem All Along - Dave2D
We could obviously compare performance between windows and steamOS before on the steam deck, or between windows and Bazzite on other handhelds. But this is the first time we have had official windows and SteamOS builds for the same hardware.
I mean, yeah, but if Proton is doing an absolutely flawless job, then it has 0 performance penalty compared to Windows. All the actual gains still do come from Linux having less overhead. So, both are true, that Proton is killing it and that the gains come from Linux.
DXVK (which also runs on windows) alone gives you a huge performance benefit. Playing world of warcraft on windows I'll see about a 30% reduction in CPU usage and higher performance.
Proton doesn't just get you to almost matching Windows' performance. Proton easily outperforms windows even on higher end hardware where windows bloat isn't a concern.
While proton enables that, that's still just vulkan outperforming DirectX.
So technically proton isn't improving performance here, it's just allowing the game to run on better performing systems (like Linux and vulkan).
It's just Vulkan outperforming DirectX by translating DirectX to Vulcan. If you're comparing the default experience with Windows and Linux, how can you say Proton isn't technically improving performance? What would you call that if a performance increase is caused by running through Proton?
Yeah its wine/proton and linux together. Wine/Proton efficiently handles translating the Windows programmes API calls into POSIX calls while Linux seems to offer a lower OS overhead so there is more system resource available for the games.
I do think Proton gets a little too much credit. Its wine plus faudio, dxvk and other open source projects combined. Proton is great but it is standing on the shoulders of giants.
Agreed. Proton is important as a bit of an "iPhone moment" where all this tech comes together in a way where non-techies "get it" in the sense where they understand why it's useful, even if they'll never bother to learn the details of why or how.
I do think Proton gets a little too much credit.
Why? Valve has been sponsoring all these projects for a really long time. While wine existed before that, it wouldn't be anywhere near the shape thats its currently in because gaming was not its main focus. There have been loads of gaming bugs and sharp edges that have been around wine for a long time until Valve put in the money and devs to fix them.
What does proton do?
I only vaguely understand it as "thing that makes game playable on other thing."
(And also I have six versions installed on my steam deck whydoIneedsixofthese?)
Proton is the compatibility layer that valve makes that lets you run games on Linux. Proton uses DXVK a program that converts Direct X API calls (windows only) to Vulkan API calls (runs on anything). DXVK alone gives you huge performance benefits (especially on older DirectX 11 and older games) and you can run it on windows.
Proton gives you a ton of other tools that can make huge performance differences.
Hopefully not a dumb question: If Vulkan runs on anything, assuming their game isn't a Windows (Xbox?) exclusive, why don't more people program their games to use Vulkan instead?
That my friend, is entering operating system politics.
But the TLDR is: resistance to change, lack of support, bribery, a combination of all 3, features, and much much more!
Vulkan is designed to be closer to the metal than something like DirectX 11 or OpenGL, which makes the API more explicit and difficult to use. This means it requires a great deal more care to use properly. And to complicate matters more, subtle bugs that are very difficult to debug are very easy to introduce.
But, this applies mostly to devs who build their own tech. Most of them these days are just using 3rd party engines like Unity or Unreal, so it comes down to whether or not the person making the game decides to check the box to use Vulkan and just how good those render backends are. Engine developers of 3rd party tech have to build their stuff to be as generic as possible. That's likely gonna add a lot of bloat that might not be fully optimized for every game developer's use case.
TLDR: It's tough and time consuming for someone writing it themselves. And for the ones who aren't, they're having to place a lot of trust in a renderer that is probably a black box and might be buggy/slow.
Because DirectX is more than a graphics API.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX
A fair amount of what used to make DirectX an everything API has been deprecated, but if you are already using Windows stuff for networking and audio, then you may as well use the graphics APIs too.
I'll add for completeness that vkd3d-proton handles DX12 titles, and of course OGL and Vulkan are supported natively.
Most simply put, it's a layer that allows a computer program expecting windows to run on Linux. It isn't emulating anything, just sorta like translating.
Think of it like a language. Windows speaks English, so a program expects to talk in English. But let's pretend like Linux talks Spanish. Proton translates the English commands to Spanish for Linux to understand and execute, and then Proton converts the responses back to English for the program.
The big thing though about Proton is that it's not an additional translation/emulation layer. It doesn't translate into Spanish for Linux, as that would be slow, it makes Linux talk English.
So in your example, imagine you, the English speaking program, want to catch a taxi in Madrid/Linux but all taxi drivers speak only Spanish. An emulation layer would be "translating", so you would have an additional guy in the taxi that you could talk to that talks to the Spanish driver. Proton is not that, it's an English-speaking taxi driver.
Proton uses Wine, which is a Windows system call API translation layer for Linux. In other words, it translates commands for the Windows kernel into calls for the Linux kernel.
So it's kind of an emulator and kind of not, but regardless the metaphor of a translator is fine. As a lightweight translator, you might say it's like using Google Translate on your phone to translate back and forth quickly and automatically, rather than having a person in the middle who needs to think about it.
I think the example you're using is closer to emulation.
I'm not an expert by any means, most of my technology experience comes from hardware. But Proton isn't changing the Linux ecosystem, and the programs are still expecting a windows environment when they're run via Proton.
From what I recall, Linux and windows can both do the same stuff, they just have different names or different ways to ask for resources. And Proton receives the request for whatever and converts it to the Linux equivalent.
It's not nearly as bad as it was in the past, now that the graphics APIs are system agnostic.
Proton is Wine plus DXVK and VKD3D, as well as a big pile of little tweaks and out of tree changes that Valve maintains to specifically maximize game compatibility and performance.
It sounds a lot like what the GPU driver providers used to do (and probably still do, despite all DX12 and Vulkan's promises of making that unnecessary) on top of making the drivers.
And that is basically "fixing badly written games so they perform well on the hardware".
As far as I can tell, Intel has been using Proton's fixes DXVK to get their drivers working on older games on Windows
I'm not sure what you're saying. Proton is incredible obviously, but by itself it doesn't make games run better. Using vulkan instead of DirectX could improve performance, but presumably most of the performance gain is from not running windows in the background.
It's a bit of both, along with the Linux AMD drivers being superior in many cases to the Windows drivers.
A performance uplift plus double or tripled battery life compared to running on Windows.....hot damn that's impressive.
Get rekt Windows.
What's nice is that Microsoft today doesn't have capability to improve in the short or even medium term. They could drop a billion dollars into it and it would still take them years to improve their offering, if they can at all.
And why would they? They're printing so much money, this niche probably doesn't make a dent.
It doesn't matter if Windows is the best system for gaming. It just matters if people believe it is.
You can always justify using Windows. "How do I get Game Pass to work on my handheld?" is probably something people care about.
Granted this is an expensive way to lock customers into your platform, but they're already doing it anyways, so no need to pour money into the OS experience when you can just sell services building on customer data.
It'd be great if they truly believed this, but that's just the image they like to project, the truth is that this has them deathly afraid.
You've got mainstream media covering it, folks like digital foundry openly talking about how Windows is the worst part of Windows handhelds. They can't let this stand, so they're actively working against it.
Just like the faster zombies blog post in 2012 scared them into boosting d3d development and eventually led to the release of d3d12, this will make them actually invest in gaming for a change.
All the chatter about xbox branded handhelds is an easy tell, but like the blog post we might not discover the true extent until years later.
I am sure that MS is very concerned. If i take my usecase, the things that held me on windows from dos5/Win3.1 up to Windows10 were gaming and that i grew up with it. I sometimes dabbled in linux, but since there was no meaningful way to use my game library, i switched back, because even dualbooting made no sense (what for? just so i can boot back after browsing a few web pages?)
This time after 3 days i deleted my windows partition, even while i was still fighting a bit with the Wayland/NVidia combo - that was shortly after the explicit sync drivers were available.
The young'ins want to play their games, and now they can without ever coming into contact with microsoft at all if not for the anticheat-outliers (who knows, maybe there's some money flowing that stops them from activating linux support? i know most anticheat in theory does work under linux). And if they start playing on Linux, there's no reason for them to switch over to Windows at all.
It’s not about the short term, it’s about the long term.
Windows should consider proton and steam an existential threat.
MS (and APR) give away their keystone software windows, office, etc in order to “get them young” and make sure that young kids grow up using their software.
Majority of kids interactions with computers is mobile, gaming, and schoolwork.
MS has nothing in mobile, gaming is getting more crowded and school both Apple and Google are muscling in
They made an attempt. It's called Windows RT. It's a sandbox more locked down than iOS.
The Win32 desktop environment isn't built to support stuff like "timer coalescing" for all the API calls which all the software is designed to run continously in the background. Changing how it idles would change so many things which all kinds of software depends on that it would barely be the same OS anymore.
Realistically the design goals of a gaming OS vs a general desktop OS aren't that different. You want to balance performance, batterlife/power consumption, and making sure it withstands insane abuse by users and software doing anything you could never imagine that nobody should have ever tried to do. About the only design goal that separates SteamOS from Windows is fleet manageability features
I'd wager they could cut a lot of cruft from a handheld gaming device specific version of Windows.
I bet Antimalware Service Executable is still randomly springing it's way to the top of task manager in this build. All sorts of crap that just doesn't need to be running. On my PC right now I can see Service Host: DNS Client at 1-4% all the fucking time. Random driver update checks that run in fucking Electron for some godforsaken reason. That kind of shit.
It's worse than that. MS could quickly turn the boat around. They have the cash. They have the manpower (well, have recently fired). The only thing they don't have is THE ABILITY TO THINK ABOUT ANYTHING BUT AI AI AI AI GOTTA HAVE AI AIIIIIIII. The brainrot has eaten Nadella, and eaten the whole board.
There are rumors they plan to do this with the first Xbox handheld.
Windows Gamers (who will never switch to Linux): Linux still isn't ready for mass adoption
Windows Gamers (who will never switch to Linux)
So you accept that Linux is not the problem. We are litterally at the point where it will get mass Adoption in the next few years. That is what this post is about. That you can litterally go out and buy a fully complete gaming system preinstalled with Linux that performs better than the same system with Windows.
We are very close to the point where the only thing holding Linux gaming back is marketing.
Marketing and market availability are the biggest problems. People need to be able to go into any store, buy a handheld/laptop/desktop and have it include Linux without them asking.
Don't forget educational institutes. Linux should be the defacto OS at such places. The younger generation's first interaction with a PC is at school. If they are used to Linux from a young age, this is greatly help them ease into the Linux mindset (package manager, terminal).
That too, as well as in professional and government settings.
100% agree. That is coming soon though. Microsoft has had vendor lock'in for the last 30 years which guaranteed engineering dollars (drivers, software, testing) spent by OEMs to support Windows. SteamOS is breaking the grip of Microsoft though. If Microsoft is too slow to react, SteamOS will become entrenched for gaming and that will guarantee engineering dollars are spent on SteamOS support (again, drivers, software, testing), which will upstream to Linux. At that point, 3rd party hardware, peripherals, and software will be targeting SteamOS and Linux. OEMs will have already spent engineering dollars to support their hardware in SteamOS (and Linux), so they wouldn't hesitate to start shipping Linux machines to the big box stores. It's Microsoft's market to lose though.
Keep in mind Linux had this opportunity during netbooks, Microsoft simply forced them to abandon Linux and threatened contracts. Yes, many computers shipped Linux and in what I can only describe as a blatantly illegal move (and cornering of the market) Microsoft forced them to use Windows. If OEMs like Dell or HP start selling as many Linux PCs as Windows PCs Microsoft can just threaten contracts.
If you don't mind me asking: What problems did you run into? And what distro were you using?
I've tested out Manjaro, KDE Neon, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian, Mint, and Fedora - across two desktops and a laptop.
Problems have been all over the spectrum. Not being to install at all, trouble getting it to dual boot after installing (despite following a guide), getting NAS drives to be writeable, hardware compatibility, finding alternatives to proprietary software which may or may not do everything the original did, and more.
I'm semi enjoying the tinkering for now, and I'm not regretting trying to de-Windows as much as possible, but I think people who say Linux is ready for mainstream are out of touch with the average person's computer literacy.
Oh ok very interesting. Thanks for the insight.
And good luck :D
Imagine the hardware compatibility issues you'd have trying to install MacOS on your machine. Probably a nightmare. Better to just buy hardware that is compatible with the OS you want to run.
That's fair, but unless what you do requires windows in some way (like, say, Photoshop), Linux tends to be better for productivity as well, if you learn it
But of course, I understand that it takes some upfront work and learning to change your workflow, so I don't blame people for not doing it
Sure, but they are comparing SteamOS, which is a stripped down OS that does not have all the capabilities of a full Linux OS.
Just try using any photo editing software on SteamOS. Even ones compatible with Linux.
Most people dont use Windows because its compatible with more software, they use it because thats what their computer came with. If computers just starting shipping Linux then software will come.
Most people just need a web browser for most of their needs, unless you have a need for a specific software that's Windows only and doesn't have a good Linux alternative,
Valve did a lot of work to tune the APU in the steam deck for efficiency. It's custom silicon at the end of the day.
AMD just kinda took one of their existing laptop APUs and threw it into handhelds instead of laptops.
The Deck also has a weaker but lower wattage chip and worse display, that makes a big difference.
Maybe I need Cortana, Microsoft Excel, and OneDrive while I play Doom Eternal. You don't know me.
Well yeah duh windows and Linux use the same resources. I don't put more memory in my computer when I boot into Linux...
Valve doubling down on Linux as the default OS on the Steam Deck was such a great decision. It obviously has given them a massive competitive edge. Windows has become so horribly bloated, and Microsoft has almost zero interest in making it run more efficiently.
Personally I feel what it gave them - primarily - was the ability to be independent of Microsoft, not beholden to them in any way whatsoever, and not having to pay them any license fees.
The fact that after putting so much work into making Proton and that whole toolchain amazing it actually turned out faster than Windows, well, that's juat the delicious icing on the cake, from a commercial perspective.
So I'm not insane. Monster Hunter Wilds and Helldiver's II both run better on my Ubuntu image with the same hardware than my Windows 10 image.
Does that mean that Proton and Vulkan are far more efficient than Direct3D?
Probably this. Especially on low end hardware that doesn't really have a lot of background resources to give.
Just open task manager and see all the shit windows thinks is essential to run all the time. Scanning the drive for viruses, downloading updates for shit you've never even looked at...
They say I/O schedulers on Windows are weird.
Edit: or was it CPU schedulers? I'm sure i've read something about this forever ago.
Yes/no.
The linux scheduler is a work of art - heuristics to dynamically determine resource access priority, checks for resource locking that are some of the most elegant pieces of code written by humanity, incredibly adaptable and clever. It took me the better part of a year before I really understood the underlaying mechanics, and even now I could by no means reproduce it on my own. It's truly an amazing bit of mathematics.
...
Windows solves the same problem by randomly elevating processes to maximum priority. That's it, that's the whole algorithm.
Depressingly, they're equally effective.
My understanding is that vulkan is generally more efficient than directX.
Holy shit triple the hours
They said make electric cars fast, and you'll get car guys to buy in. It was true.
Now they're making linux make video games faster and prettier...
I dont know if there will ever be a year of the linux desktop, but this is the kind of stuff you gotta do to get there.
Hmm, it's like having spyware constantly run in the background slows down the computer?
Linux Dev's anti Sony bias shows front and center
/s
Read the charts?
Notice any difference in the results?
makes a lot of sense honestly. I never knew the numbers behind it (tks for sharing). when I was ripping witcher 3 on nobara and then changed my OS back to Windows due to work related issues, I felt a SIGNIFICANT performance drop. the game became laggy, when it used to run top on Linux with the same settings. good share - the time for Linux gaming is now.
Back in ~2010, my first dual boot was an Ubuntu. It was fairly easy to run WoW from Linux and it gave me a solid >15fps while Windows ran at less than 10fps.
I was very young at the time but still aware that this was super impressive with extra compatibility layers. That definitely took part in selling Linux to me.
I could barely get Minecraft to run 20fps on this old laptop I had given to me a few years ago. Loaded Ubuntu on it and Minecraft ran near 60fps. Blew my mind.
Valve won. Maybe it's lucky timing, or maybe Gabe is actually a genius, but it's only going to get worse for Windows as there is no way in hell Microsoft shifts resources from AI projects to make Windows better for PC gaming. Recently, Capcom announced that their PC gaming sales surpassed their console sales, and I don't think it's likely we'll see that trend changing, and it's also likely other publishers will make similar announcements soon (although idk if they count SteamOS as a console). The Switch 2 is coming out soon, but people already say it's too expensive, and there are controversies surrounding some of their product decisions.
Will this bring about the era of the Linux desktop? Idk, but the era of the Linux gaming PC is inevitable now.
Will Steam do for the gaming PC what porn did for the internet?
I think you're a bit better off with SteamOS's gamescope rather than going through gnome-shell.
Spoderman no
pls dont suggest this blatantly obvious russian/us/chinese surveillance tool jesus chriat pls dont tell me people actually use this... if youre worried about security use a hardened linux distro this is just crazy
No, this one is different. It's not an ISO you download (those are extremely sus and you would be right to be skeptical of them), but instead an open source set of scripts you apply to an existing Windows OS.
Edit: see my comment below, it seems to be partially closed source.
Not OP, but I assume it’s got something to do with entrusting an unaudited, closed-source 3rd party to significantly alter your OS.
There are plenty of similar tools available, which are both open source and can be run by the end-user over a stock Windows installation.
But it is open source …
https://github.com/meetrevision
The playbook is for Windows AME of which there are some other playbooks and is also open source.
Although it seems like there’s a cloudflare issue accessing their self hosted git but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it before 🤔
There’s also the unattended scripts and other windows debloaters that can be ran. My original point being I’d like to see a stripped down windows 11 vs steamos
Can it play MH Wilds?
If you want something capable of running at an actually steady frame rate I'm not sure any computer can accomplish that without some serious tweaking.
Also if you're wanting to play on deck you might try this guide.
thanks, bookmarked for when it goes on sale. none of my hardware is acceptable enough for the specs.
I was kinda joking, but the game still stutters and has fps drops regardless of the hardware it's run on. Digital Foundry has a pretty scathing performance review of it.
It's certainly playable on good hardware (assuming you aren't super bothered by dips), but it also performs way worse than it should at any hardware level.
I don't consider the game a good performance benchmark for any piece of hardware because it's performance is abnormally bad, and there's no hardware where it can run without issues.
So for real though, while it's disappointing and I am nowhere near the 500+ hours i have put in previous titles, the hardware is not going to do it. The game eats VRAM like my brother's ex ate cake.
But, I get about 5 fps @2k and 9FPS@1080p better on my Ubuntu image than my Windows 10 image.
Ryzen 9 5900x Radeon RX 7900 XTX 24GB 32GB DDR4, both images are on different 1TB nvme drives
So while, no you can't, it's closer.
I'd still take this with a grain of salt. Not many games tested, and the SteamOS build might've been tweaked and worked on more to be more optimized.
Does this look optimized to you, Windows side?
While I get it, it does look pretty damning, skepticism when we haven't been presented with rigorous documented testing is always good. I don't think ex: gamersnexus is going to find different results, but I'm pretty damn sure they'll at least be comparing chipsets to ensure the hardware actually is identical (and making sure that things like system settings are configured to be as fair as possible). Lets not be apple fans and leap to the top of the superiority heap just because a good looking infographic said we should.
Well, SteamOS vs base Windows isn’t really a good comparison. Best would be optimized Windows vs gaming only distro, or base windows vs base distro
Best would be optimized Windows
What is "optimized Windows"? Windows is Windows. There's no gaming-focused version.
gaming only distro
There's no such thing, to my knowledge.
base windows vs base distro
What is a "base distro"?
What is "optimized Windows"? Windows is Windows. There's no gaming-focused version.
Removing / disabling useless services, tweaking registry…
There's no such thing, to my knowledge.
SteamOS sure looks like one. Gaming focused if you prefer. I’ve seen a couple on Linux, though I don’t remember their name rn.
What is a "base distro"?
Something like Ubuntu or Mint, which would be more comparable to a desktop experience like windows, ready for productivity
"Xbox OS" isn't any better, while the XBox Series X is more powerful than the standard Playstation 5, it still ends up being outperformed as Digital Foundry found.
Now what about windows 10 ltsc iot, the ONLY version of windows worth comparing to linux.
IMHO you shouldn't have to run a stripped down Windows to get good results. It should just work that way out of the box. LTSC is not supposed to be a consumer OS.
Pretty much everything will run on Linux now. It's just the companies behind the games being dumbasses and blocking it with their anti-cheat.
There is plenty of software that doesn't, and plenty of games that don't run on Linux, even beyond anticheat games. If it wasn't true, we wouldn't need protondb telling us what is and isn't. You can advocate for Linux all day, but you have to admit there is still software that is 100% Windows only.
Shouldn't have to, absolutely, but its done anyway, so I think its can be relevant.
Until that last little bit of stuff I have to use windows for becomes linux native or at least doesn't have a tutorial to make it work that makes my eyes cross, its just easier for me to use my stripped down windows install because it just works.
SteamOS is purpose built for gaming. Windows LTSC is specifically not for gaming, but many shoehorn it into it.
Arch is a stripped down version of Arch.
Linux isn't monolithic like Windows, so it can be purpose built for anything.
Windows LTSC is designed for things like kiosks, ATMs, etc that have a long service life. It's not made for gaming. It doesn't even include things like DirectX by default, IIRC. You have to add it.
So? That still doesn't change the fact that SteamOS is a stripped down version of Linux that can't do everything a Linux computer can do.
So the comparison is flawed.
It is like comparing a Swiss army knife to a regular knife. The regular knife is going to be better at cutting, but it won't do any of the other things a Swiss army knife can do
It’s impressive that’s still the case when SteamOS is running a translation layer that Windows doesn’t have to.
Also, SteamOS is actually a pretty fully-featured OS, and it’s based off of Linux, so it’s not that specialized, besides the UI.
Yeah it's basically Arch with KDE Neon/gamescope that runs Steam in Big Picture mode with an immutable file system. That's why Bazzite is able to make a StramOS-like experience. The hardest things are the hardware-specific tweaks.
SteamOS is able to launch a desktop environment where you can do anything you want. It is just an OS like Windows, but better.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
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A place to discuss and support all Steam Hardware, including Steam Deck, Steam Machine, Steam Frame, and SteamOS in general.
As Lemmy doesn't have flairs yet, you can use these prefixes to indicate what type of post you have made, eg:
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I really hate the dismissal of the heavy lifting proton does. Proton is what makes gaming on Linux so great. So many native linux games perform worse on Linux vs their windows counterparts. Then again, I'd expect nothing less from Dave2D
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