Israel’s war in Gaza is chipping away at so much of what we – in the United States but also internationally – had agreed upon as acceptable, from the rules governing our freedom of speech to the very laws of armed conflict. It seems no exaggeration to say that the foundation of the international order of the last 77 years is threatened by this change in the obligations governing our legal and political responsibilities to each other.
As someone who is a Jewish refugee in the US, there are more than enough Jewish folks in Israel and around the US who are completely fine with what the government of Israel is doing. They should not be let off the hook. I say this fully realizing that the pro Palestinian sentiment has a large Jewish constituency in the US. So it’s not to paint with a broad brush. But people living in Israel are almost 3/4 in support of what is happening and the only protests in that country were from people who wanted to rescue the hostages but were fully on board with the horrors the country is committing in the name of Jews around the world. The conflation of a religion with an ethnicity will end up making us less safe.
That's not because they're Jewish, though, it's because they've let their ego and pride overcome their empathy for their fellow human beings.
There's plenty of non-Jewish people who are also perfectly happy to profit off the suffering of Palestinians.
it's because they've let their ego and pride overcome their empathy for their fellow human beings.
What a terrible excuse
Those were absolutely not the only protests in Israel, those were the only protests in Israel that got coverage and support from the government. The protests against what was happening were violently suppressed and silenced as has been happening for quite some time. Yes the large anti netanyahu protests made little mention of Palestinians rather than ceasefire deals to bring the hostages home but that is how you bring people together politically.
Once the hostages are all released most of them will stop caring
My pro-palestinian praxis is making sure my Jewish neighbours have no reason to even think about aliyah. Jewish safety? It's here. Reverse doikayt.
Thank you for the little rabbit hole you provided when I was prompted to look up "doikayt".
Listen to this: https://thefirethesetimes.com/...
All my life I've been hearing propaganda tarring all Jewish people as being murdering racist colonizers.
It's very strange that that propaganda is now coming from the government of Israel and wealthy Jewish people in the US.
Seems like a really stupid and counterproductive move, but I'm sure they know what they're doing.
The Palestinian people deserve a lot of apologies from a lot of assholes on the internet that have monetized their suffering.
And a lot of people in the Arab world deserve an apology from the Ayatollah of Iran for using them as meat shields in their failed attempt to wipe Israel off the map.
Literal parallel reality material. Arabs overwhelmingly support Iran's antagonization of Israel and wish their own governments would do the same. Source: am Arab.
Makes three of us lol, thought I’m more special
More accurately, they’re both separate descendants of ethnonationalism which was a popular ideology at that time. And still today, evidently, though it seemed to be in decline for a bit during the post-war period.
Well, 19th century zionism was a different thing. Edit: or rather, a more diverse collection if things. Optionally but not necessarily evil. Sometimes it was as benign as 'lets all go somewhere and join a community together ajd bring the ways that we're cool to that community and even if they dont totally like us, they can't hate us more than these assholes'.
So it is fair to say that the idea of zionism that 'won', the genocidal theocratic ethnostate, is at least to some extent based on both the nazis, and some of the same esoteric bs the nazis were into.
It was always about stealing local people land and displace them
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
The property owners will come over to our side. According to my conception, the majority of the local population will have to be transferred elsewhere.
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Hertzel's version, yes. He also tried to get literally cecil rhodes to help. There were others, and people who hated that guy. It didnt quite mean just one thing til a few years later, though.
In the modern definition of the word, yes, its herzel's that won. I woukd never defend what it is in earnest, only point out that before it started to congeal, it could have been/meant other things.
Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine. Joining those two groups is ridiculous and rude to Jewish people.
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution. That pissed off the local Arabs (understandably) and both of them started arguing—which was not usually violent until 1920-30ish.
That said, after it became a British Mandate (1917), Israel got a ton of international support. And obviously after WWII, they got whatever they wanted…. Which, was choosing violence.
A lot of the reason the Arabs got little support was because they were fragmented, with no leadership. Each of their revolts were seen as a threat and not a legitimate push back against colonization. And, after the Ottoman Empire fell, England and France “stole” that land, so revolts were more or less terrorism (in their eyes, of course).
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution.
This is completely ignoring the boycott and parallel society angle. What Zionists did in pre-mandate Palestine was also forced expulsion of Palestinians; the forcing part was simply delegated to the state. Had they simply wanted to settle in Palestine nobody would've minded, but that was fundamentally not what the Zionist project was.
According to Israeli historian Benny Morris, Zionism was inherently expansionist and always had the goal of turning the entirety of Palestine into a Jewish state. In addition, Morris describes the Zionists as intent on politically and physically dispossessing the Arabs.
The World Zionist Organization established the Jewish National Fund (JNF) in 1901, with the stated goal "to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people." The notion of land "redemption" entailed that the land could not be sold and could not be leased to a non-Jew nor should the land be worked by Arabs.[145] The land purchased was primarily from absentee landlords, and upon purchase of the land, the tenant farmers who traditionally had rights of usufruct were often expelled.
-Wikipedia
Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine.
Nazism had a lot to do with the German people expanding their homeland to Eastern Europe and Russia and murdering the inhabitants. Starting to see the similarities now? Nazism and Zionism are sister ideologies, both fruits from the same rotten tree that is European settler colonialism.
Anyone could argue that “my people deserve this” is a similar ideology. That’s just false equivalence. You are cherry picking, and ignoring a whole lot of history and intention.
Has Israel moved towards a similar ideology? Yes. But to claim in started out with that intent is just angry jaw flapping.
Herlz also asked support from antisemites
The result of the persecution against the Jews resulted in an influx of them going down there. However, the persecution was long before World War II and the Nazis did not directly assist that migration and therefore comparing the two groups as a team or descendants is offensive.
Facts:
- Zionism happened before Nazism.
- The migration of Jewish people to Palestine began long before WWII.
- The only thing the Nazis did was speed up that migration and establish international sympathy for the Jewish people.
Now, if you’re saying Israel today is Nazi-like… then yeah I agree completely.
Zionists are similar tool of oppressiom to nazis
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution. That pissed off the local Arabs (understandably) and both of them started arguing—which was not usually violent until 1920-30ish
Arab was pissed of when the zionists plan became clear. Owning lands do not give you right to declare a state
There was a group of Yemeni jews who settled in palestine and people was fine with them. Arabs and those jews was going to each other festivities.
The state declaration was in 1948. Zionism was established in 1897.
That leaves 51 years for things to go wrong—and they did.
If things got pretty bad around 1920, that’s just a few years after Britain put its dirty cock in the mix. And I think we can both agree British colonialism has been the cause of a ton of problems.
Zionism was a solution to Jewish statelessness and persecution. In its early conception, Zionism was not a tool of oppression, but rather a form of self-determination.
Did Zionism become a genocidal maniac? Yes.
Zionists collaborated with Nazis to help them deport Jews to Palestine.
Such a shame that doing anything about it, including asking nicely, would be rabidly antisemitic.
Edit: also acknowledging that it's both happening and a problem is antisemitic. You are allowed to day it would be bad if it did, and youre allowed to acknowledge whats happening only while you sing the popular zionist childrens song 'exterminate the brutes'.
The only victims of calling palestinian supporter antisemitic is non zionists jews who will exprerience more real antisemitism
The split is between governments and the general public. I don't know too many individuals who are ok with what is going on. And if they are, they are being awfully quiet about it.
As someone who has to deal with real people at demonstrations regularly, these horrible genocidal sentiments are not just limited to internet trolls unfortunately.
Also as much as they are detached from the general population, all the politicians and Israel lobbyists and MIC lobbyists still are real people too.
Those articles always get a bunch of trolls though.
But those people still elect those parties thst support israel. Why those parties would listen to people?
Gaza is the latest in a long line of atrocities committed by countries ostensibly committed to a law of armed conflict.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria... hell the US interventions in Somalia and the former Yugoslavia were as horrifying as they were criminal. Sometimes we can find an exigent threat that gives us permission to use overwhelming force to brutalize the bad guys - as in Iraq '91 with the Kuwaiti invasion. Other times we just have to make some shit up, as with Grenada or Vietnam.
But this idea that we've had an international order for any of the last 77 years is more a reflection on the quantity of our propaganda than the quality of our international ethics. The total war Israel is conducting in Gaza, while the US hovers overhead threatening to flatten any Egyptian or Jordanian or Lebanese who attempts to intervene, has been historic in the degree to which far more cushy liberal rhetoric has been replaced with full-throated endorsement of ethnic cleansing.
But the policies themselves? We manufactured a famine in Afghanistan shortly after withdrawing the last US troops. We have repeatedly blocked countries with socialist governments from accessing international markets to obtain relief, such as Bangladesh in '74 and Ethiopia ten years later. Somalia has been under near constant assault by US Navy vessels "policing" the most lucrative fishing territories, driving up rates of piracy as a substitute for traditional subsistence farming. Then you've got the '91 famine in N. Korea and the '94 Cuban hunger crisis, both the consequence of US blockades.
Any one of these would be considered a modern-day Holodomor from the perspective of an objective outside observer. Unfortunately, Americans only get to hear about Gaza - and even then only in dribs and drabs on social media or alt-news publications - as they turn away from the traditional corporate-friendly press venues.
Israel does not have a future after this. They're removing their own credibility, and the world knows it. They're nothing but a rogue state at this point, waiting to be put to sleep like a rabid dog.
Like a dying star undergoing supernova. A rampant destruction at the end.
All the major western countries still back up israel and.was celebrsting them attacking Iran. Unfortunately israel is not a rogue state yet
They buy israeli military tech tested in gaza and are still neocolonial racist countries
The US backs Israel no matter what. However the current situation is more difficult within the EU. Suspending the trade agreement with Israel is relativly possible. At the same time Israel being convicted of genocide, would basically end any sort of moral argument made in countries like Germany. Also the US is a huge reason to be more Israel friendly and that relationship has some issues.
Israel attacking Iran was celebrated in countries like Syria too. Not exactly a rarer stance in the Arab world too.
Syrians hate Iran but hate Israel harder. If EU can still back up Ukraine despite trump siding with Russia, they can stop supporting Israel too. There is no excuse at all for Europe. The strongest European countries has zero issue with Israel they just like to pretend
Israel does not have a future after this.
If Germany and Japan could have a future after WW2 - a war they lost categorically - Israel will do just fine in the coming decades, after successfully executing a full ethnic cleanse of some of the more valuable real estate in the Mediterranean.
Israel isn't a rogue state, it's a cat's paw. They're doing the dirty work as a proxy for allies who have wanted to wipe Arabs off that corner of the map for decades. In the end, however, you're going to see western states welcome Israelis back into the fold with open arms, just so long as they can pin this all on Netanyahu and pretend it wasn't a national project with the full support of the Israeli public.
The state of Germany was put down twice, completely dismantled, and ceded. There are still a lot of Germans around. Do you not differentiate between a state and the people residing in it?
ban landlords.
the Mayans missed it by like ... 15 years
Idk. Seems like this was occurring in 2012 too.
no they were spot on. it just takes a while for the change to take effect in the outside world.
When the US starts being the primary funder of them.
There isn’t any difference between American arms and israeli arms
United snakes hold the crown of the number of countries bombed by them (30 countries) and the number of coups (dozens).
Cold War regime change attempts (64 covert, 6 overt, 1947–1989):
https://mwi.westpoint.edu/...Global interventions, including coups and election interference (81 interventions in elections, 64 covert and 6 overt regime change attempts):
https://en.wikipedia.org/...List and discussion of US-backed coups in Latin America, Middle East, Africa, and Asia:
https://www.themontrealreview.com/...General overview of US foreign interventions, including nearly 400 military interventions and examples of coups:
https://en.wikipedia.org/...Washington Post summary of academic research on 72 US attempts to change foreign governments during the Cold War:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...
The genocide in Sudan is funded by the UAE which is an American proxy and best friends with Israel.
China and Russia are funding the anti “resistance“. It’s just a proxy war. Same exact thing the Afghanistan war was about
You're beyond saving. You cannot even recognize why it matters if you're participating in a genocide or not. A genocide is already happening, why not make a buck off of it? In a past life, you worked at IBM. There you sold computers to the Nazis to help them tabulate the Holocaust.
Don’t know who you intended to reply to, but I hope you find them!
Talk about them nobody stopping you bt you don't care you just need a way to deflect from the current topic and genocide
It's their little pet conflict, they don't care about anything else and arguably don't really care about gaza or palestine. Most probably don't even know the difference between the two.
If you call out obvious iranian propaganda or do so much as hinting at "using women and children as human shields is bad", you are a zionist, genocide-apologist, blahblahblah.
Calling out antisemitism, especially within the self-proclaimed political left, is another sure way to get some ad hominem insults and/or threats.
That being said, your comment is still a straw man.
This may be a stupid question, but why did we need to create Israel in the first place? If my memory from my shitty American education serves me, they had all these survivors of the Holocaust with nowhere to go, so they created Israel for them to live peacefully, fuck whoever was already living there.
But why couldn't they all just go back home? I know everyone was shipped off across Europe to the camps but like... surely they remembered where they lived before? Everything was bombed to hell but that's the same for whoever lived there, Jewish or not. Am I missing a piece that makes the need for their own country to make sense?
It’s actually a good question. We didn’t.
The desire to create a country Israel came about in the 1800s, when Theodor Herzl looked at anti-semitism in Europe and concluded that Jews would never be accepted by countries or have any political power so the only way to get ahead in such a nationalistic world would be to make their own country. It was built on an anachronistic set of ideas; religion was tied to your citizenship of a country. Turkey represented European Muslims and UK/France/Germany represented Christians, and he concluded there was no way Jews could be considered equal citizens in Europe.
Originally the plan was to buy land in Africa or South America and declare a new country there. It was a purely secular plan to build an ethnostate. The World Zionist Congress had a vote and they narrowly approved to build the country in British mandate Palestine, not for religious reasons but because the connection to Jerusalem would help motivate immigration and tourism. They almost had it in Uganda or Argentina or Madagascar.
The holocaust merely accelerated the plan and gave a justification after the fact to build the country. Initially Israeli society didn’t like having holocaust survivors and they weren’t treated well, only today are they out on a pedestal and used as justification for their colonialism.
Jews would never be accepted by countries
Did he thought that they would be accepted by the local population?
As best as we can tell, he truly didn’t care what locals thought. He wanted to buy the land and make everyone else leave so an all Jewish state could be created.
Unfortunately this plan didn’t sit well with the locals who eventually stopped selling land to these newcomers, and the rising illegal immigration caused conflicts. Eventually an actual war erupted and new militias massacred and forcibly expelled the local Arab communities, creating the Israel we have today.
Herzl’s concept wasn’t as terrible on paper as it actually was in practice. (It just wouldn’t work in modern society where countries aren’t governed under ethnic supremacy) But likely if the World Zionist Congress had voted a different way, we’d be talking about how awful Israel was for mistreating Ugandans and forcing them off their land.
British Palestine (and other Mid-East / North Africa states) were notable in that they were far more accommodating to Jewish peoples than the European continent had been. They were colonial territories with large international trading hubs that were already pluralistic and accommodating to foreigners. And they weren't carrying the baggage of a few centuries of Inquisitions and Pogroms.
Until the Shah was installed in '53, Iran had one of the largest Jewish populations in the world. Ethiopia and Sudan had hundreds of thousands of Jewish people living contentedly in its borders until the '70s, when civil war and famine ripped the country apart. And prior to the Holocaust, there was an enormous flight of Jewish residents to the Americas.
Now, primarily white militant European settler colonialists might have trouble setting up an intentional community of Zionist radicals anywhere. But there's no reason to believe Argentina or Madagascar would have been materially worse for them than British Palestine.
But there's no reason to believe Argentina or Madagascar would have been materially worse for them than British Palestine.
There is no reason to believe any population would allow foreigners to build a state in their countries and not react like palestinians
It was more “given up” rather than “freely given” to the Zionists. They were resolute invaders and ferocious terrorists. And once they tuned their sights from the local population to the British, the British fucked off real fast. Then did the paperwork.
I'm no less ignorant than you are, but "returning home" isn't as easy as it sounds when your leaders and neighbors were at best complicit and at worst eager conspirators (excepting those who rebelled either openly or secretly) in your extermination. Jews have a rather long history of being...mistreated, for lack of a more appropriate term within reach, so the abstract idea of having a self-governed homeland where you can feel safe as a Jew seems to make some degree of sense in context.
But because Zionism is generally practiced by nationalists and religious zealots, and because colonialism was (and evidently is) still considered a-ok by the global power brokers when all this started, the tone of the occupation became "we're taking your space because we deserve it and you don't" rather than "may we please share your space in mutual benefit for our safe refuge."
Right... Like why TF wouldn't you want to leave
It's hard to find a more Nazi way of doing it. Never forget, Zionists signed the Haavara Agreement with Hitler. You can look up Hitler's quotes on Zionists to find that his problem with them was that *"It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there" *- that they weren't being imperial colonialist enough and were just all talk. It's sad to see the meaning of genocide twisted so much to use the genocide of the past to protect the genocide of the present. Hitler's problem with Jews in Germany is that they were staying in Germany, it was not with the Zionists who were trying to take over the reigns of Mandate Palestine.
Sort of what we are seeing now, radical far right groups sticking up for each other even when at face value ideologically they should be opposed - because it's not about the lie they are peddling, it's about forcing people out and conquering occupied territory to take their wealth and resources. Not that these far right leaders will ever admit it, but the shifting stream of excuses, justifications, and contradictions create the outline of what they've even lied to themselves about. They are not people of character.
Our imaginations have always fallen short with regard to World War III. The only thing anyone can visualize is total nuclear destruction, but this world definitely has another actual world war left in it where conventional forces fight it out across multiple fronts, largely through proxies but orchestrated by the major powers. The world economy will plunge into chaos for a decade or more. The political situation in every country around the world will turn to shit. Fascism will bloom and commit mass atrocities. Oh shit… that’s all already happening.
that's a bit of hyperbole. Gaza is happening because the institutions were already rotten, and not the other way around
Somewhere Hari Seldon is laughing.
It works both ways. Governments are bending over backwards to silence opposition to Israel, and that means abandoning the rule of law and supressing free speech. The rot was there, but the open corruption and the sheer quantity of lies puts it into overdrive. If not for Israel, Trump would not have been reelected.
In repression of counter speech against genocide in almost all western countries to some degree their hand has been shown once again to be prioritizing order over law's rotting corpse.
Control and oppression are a type of toxic order. Gamers call it Lawful Evil.
Because America successfully turned most of the Middle East into US puppet states. There's a reason most of the region is ruled by autocratic regimes. The only Arabic-speaking country whose government is materially opposed to Israel now is Yemen.
This war is of course a huge tragedy, but as someone who sees gaza war as a local conflict borderline affecting few cities, I can't help but chuckle how much lemmy ignores the largest country in the world waging war in Europe and only escalating by every month, while western countries can't seem to keep up in production. It's Russia who will break the world, not some conflict in middle east.
EDIT: The average lemmy user claiming that russia is incapable of doing anything goes to show that you really should disregard what the average lemmy user says and rather read what experts and researchers say. The downvotes on this comment is a clear proof only few truly know what's going on right now. I would not even be surprised if the recent US weapon callback is related to this. I'm not exagggareting when I say that Russia is outproducing entire NATO in 2025. The EU just yesterday lifted debt limit to 17 countries purely to allow going into debt to raise defence spending across the EU (something that bankrupted soviets). Russia has changed it's stance on peace terms, so that goes out the window too. Even they know they can now win this war.
Lol, calling Russia the largest country in the world is a strange way to increase the might of a faded superpower who can't deploy an army to win against a country much smaller than them.
It is absolutely a big deal and most of Europe offers financial, military and humanitarian assistance above what you'll see on Lemmy. The difference is the genocide in Palestine is war crime after war crime. Sure, Russia commits and has committed war crimes, but even they follow most of the rules of war. Israel is genocidal. It's supported by their people. It's abhorrent.
I think Israel is foolish. They are protected by their international support and not viable on their own. Trump is unpredictable and nationalistic. They could get left out in the cold, like USA did to Ukraine very easily. Netanyahu has is ear. As does Putin and the Saudis. In trumps case, it'll be what he can get. Israel have less to offer while requiring the funding the others don't.
Faded superpower? Mate, this one country is now producing more weapons than all of nato combined. Wake up. While we're discussing how much to start spending on defense by 2030, russia has multiplied their manufacturing rates, hence the every upcoming week being the worst in Ukraine's history.
I think Israel is foolish. They are protected by their international support and not viable on their own. Trump is unpredictable and nationalistic.
That's weird logic. If we're going with Trump being unpredictable, then it really doesn't matter what Israel does in terms of maintaining support from Trump.
And countries don't base foreign policy based on what teenagers on the internet want. They base it on interests. What has Israel done that goes against anyone's national interests? Iran is a thorn in everyone's side, and Hezbollah has been weakened and cut off from easy supply from Iran because Assad's regime is gone. It's not in anyone's interest for Iran to have nuclear weapons, and Israel has proven their capability in taking out Iran's air defenses. The Houthis are a problem for global trade and Trump isn't going to hit them as long as they keep to their deal and not hit US shipping.
So given everyone's interests most countries might wag their finger at Israel publicly for political reasons, but people in power know that if their people were taken hostage by terrorists, they'd do much the same thing as Israel has done. The US has become unreliable in dealing with the middle east (not really caring about Houthis attacking other country's shipping) so they need an ally in the region to keep Iran and their proxies in check. And Israel has demonstrated a lot of capability in that regard. So do you think countries are going to isolate Israel for the sake of a small group of protesters constantly shouting insane slogans?
I mean that Israel depends on usa support. That could disappear on a whim.
War crimes and normalised genocide is a risk to all countries sovereignty.
You're looking at the current layout of the middle east. It's a constantly changing unstable environment. Iran going nuclear is in nobodies interest but Iran.
Not punishing Russia for invasion of Ukraine showed the world that if you don't want to be subject to larger countries rule, you need nukes. Ukraine is the only country to voluntarily give them up. Look how that turned out. Israel has not signed the non proliferation treaty. All other signatory countries have an obligation to stop them too. Where was that will?
Israel won't be isolated due to protests. Israel receives support as a vassal state to be useful in the middle east. USA is no longer dependent on the middle east. Europe less so, but still dependent. Israel is therefore less useful. So support will end eventually, irrespective of Israel's actions. Israel might hasten that end with actions that are politically damaging for the politicians in countries that enable their genocide.
The only way Russia can win is if Trump bails them out. Which is a possibility, but that would just be Trump breaking things.
But that’s what the author is saying. The “post war liberal order” of the last 77 years had mostly been a success of coming together to say that there are lines that can’t be crossed.
Now, at this point in the order’s timeline, those lines are being left so far in the rear view that they’re not visible anymore, while the empires that came to take down the holocaust are now cracking down on the people pointing this out. And critically, as pointed out later in the article, are taking notes for future wars.
Factor in the right wing fascists rising to power all over the world who are flagrantly walking all over decency and inflicting violence/turning the systems on enemies without much of a peep…well, things for the future look to be heading down a seriously dangerous path.
This isn’t business as usual. That is what they’re saying. They point out that this “established order” and international law have always been vulnerable to powerful actors moving the goalposts to serve and protect their interests. But this much drastic change in just a few years, specifically centered around Gaza is a horrific force—coupled with every other factor throughout the world— that seems to be upending any hopes for a decent future.
The next world war
Will have no rules
I would say the big distinction between Ukraine and Gaza is that in Ukraine there has been a meaningful (and enormously lucrative) project to arm locals in opposition to Russian invasion. It's been of dubious success, given how much territory they still lost. But its difficult to say that the Biden Era government (or even Trump Term 1) wasn't willing to shovel arms and mercenaries into Ukraine in an effort to cripple Russian advances.
In Gaza, the Israel blockade has gone virtually unchecked - outside of a few salvos from Yemen and some allegations of support from Iran and Hezbollah. Americans are supporting the genociders not the victims. There is no Gaza military left to repeal an invasion nor is there any appetite for a Hamas resistance to repeal IDF advances. At this point, it's little more than a shooting gallery.
There's a line of combat between Ukraine and Russia. There's nothing in Gaza. Just Israelis and their private security contractors kettling and massacring neighborhood after neighborhood, then flagging bulldozers to knock down the houses when they're done.
I'm pretty sure it's just Trump breaking the world order and eroding the freedom of Americans.
When the Israel-Hamas war is over do you really think everything is going to go back to normal in the US and the rest of the world?
Read the article. The most egregious violations occurred during the Biden administration. Biden is better at Trump as a whole, but on the Gaza issue, both have support for Israel locked in at 100%. People often fall for the marketing - Biden virtue signals while Trump vice signals. Biden made a few token show gestures towards Palestinian rights, and Trump gleefully celebrates his cruelty. But in terms of actual tangible support for Israel? Trump's record is a direct continuation of Biden's. The Biden admin for example were the first ones to propose the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. That isn't something Trump came up with - he just vice signaled with his stupid 'Gaza riviera' plan, while Biden's plan for ethnic cleansing was discussed quietly.
Myopic US take. The Israel lobby is all through the western world and has pushed almost every government into the corner of accepting this racist genocidal war lest they be labelled anti-Semitic.
Nothing excuse their complicity, nothing
Reason is not justification, I excuse nothing - just pointing our it's much wider than the US.
The major west countries are neocolonials an racist powers that's the real reason. If they can do an economical war with china they can do it with israel too
I really don't understand where this idea comes from of a country with the 40th rank GDP having the pull to mastermind politics worldwide. For reference: their revenue is about the same as Apple, whose lobbying sees less success despite being more politically neutral.
The reason they have international support is because it's convenient and their location + antagonism align with the geopolitics of a large group of states. Isreal is a dog on a leash, what we're seeing Trump do is give them unprecedented lead to genocide at will.
Letting them go this far and long without tugging their collar back to peace talks is not the historical norm, no matter how hard you point at Biden. Did Biden take direct military action to support them? Has any US president?
This Isreali lobbying is a boogeyman; Isreal could dissolve tomorrow and you would see another antagonist spring up in the region with international backing. People are just uncomfortable with their country being aligned with the bad guys of their own free will.
What you're failing to include in your calculations is how cheap political sway is to buy worldwide. You don't need to be the wealthiest nation in the world to place several $50k political donations per year to the two major parties and some of their key politicians, and keep a lobbying firm in the nation's capital well-funded to wines and dines key politicians and journalists.
Manufacturing consent is financially trivial for Israel, they've been practicing it for 50 years and the machine is institutionalized.
You don't nose dive your country and lock up/deport dissenters over chump change, you're losing more in stability and face (and the more lucrative bribes that come with those) than its worth. Trump's irrational instability has dropped the dollar value more than any of these donations could cover. The math doesn't add up.
The payment you're describing is a tithe; a show of gratitude and servitude. You wouldn't say a feudal vassal has power over his lord just because the material exchange only goes one way.
This is .world you cannot get banned for supporting genocide.
If we consider UN as being the main arbitrator on who gets to launch a war, then to mention a few instances....
1950: North Korea illegally attacks South Korea.
1956: Soviet Union illegally invades Hungary.
1956: Israel / France / UK illegally invade Egypt. All invaders withdraw after UN condemnation and international pressure.
1964: USA illegally escalates Vietnam War.
1967: Israel launches the Six-Day War, illegality debated.
1968: Soviet Union illegally invades Czechoslovakia.
1973: Egypt and Syria attack Israel.
1974: Turkey illegally invades Cyprus.
1978: Vietnam illegally invades Cambodia.
1979: Soviet Union illegally invades Afghanistan.
1982: Israel illegally invades Libanon.
1983: USA illegally invades Grenada.
1989: USA illegally invades Panama.
1990: Iraq illegally invades Kuwait. Got their ass kicked by UN-sanctioned forces though so that worked out fine.
1999: NATO illegally bombs Yugoslavia.
2003: US and UK illegally invade Iraq.
2008: Russia illegally invades Georgia.
2014: Russia illegally invades and annexes Crimea.
2015: Saudi-Arabia illegally invades Yemen.
2022: Russia illegally invades Ukraine.
I probably forgot a few. No ill meaning meant, just missing knowledge.
You really have to do whataboutism on every post concerning Israel.
1967: Israel launches the Six-Day War, illegality debated.
Nice how you question the illegality of Israel doing war crimes.
Only here on .world they banished everywhere else.
Genuinely the worst fucking lemmy server. Tankie shit is exhausting, but it doesnt flirt with world wars.
Previous poster was not questioning it but quoting the UN as the authority. https://www.britannica.com/...
Resolution 242: On November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 242
The "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war."
The need for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied during the conflict.
They attacked on a Monday, knowing that on Wednesday the Egyptian vice-president would arrive in Washington to talk about re-opening the Strait of Tiran. We might not have succeeded in getting Egypt to reopen the strait, but it was a real possibility.” - Dean Rusk, the Secretary of State of that time
“The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” - Menachem Begin
So there was no eminent security risk, the attack was not proportional and Israel kept the west bank and east Jerusalem violating the need for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied during the conflict
your reading comprehension is below elementary school levels.
I’m still not convinced about criticism of whataboutism being an actual defence. I’ve heard the argument that it doesn’t make the original criticism any less valid but to me it does. It’s more of a go fuck off together and be shit somewhere else rather than a let’s focus on this one point only purely because it was brought up before the other. And purely because it was brought up first there is not allowed to be any mention of any hypocrisy?
The guy has history of backing up isrseli war crimes
Look at how you called them all illegsl except isrsel 6 day war thst was illegal no debate sbout it
“he Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. - Menachem Begin
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The Jewish people of the world deserve apology from the government of isreal for using their suffering as a political tool in service of genocide.
In conflating politics and imperialism with lineage and race, the political movement of Zionism sows incalculable hatred into the world in the name of Judaism, so that they can reap it later, when Jewish people suffer as meat shields, as justification for expansionism, and forever-war. Down with this theocratic shell game.
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