Why do people still recommend Thinkpads for Linux when there are Linux-oriented manufacturers now?
3 years ago by const_void to c/linux
I've noticed in the Linux community whenever someone asks for a recommendation on a laptop that runs Linux the answer is always "Get a Thinkpad" yet Lenovo doesn't seem to be a big Linux contributor or ally. There's also at least six Linux/FOSS-oriented computer manufacturers now:
So what gives? Why the love for a primarily Windows-oriented laptop when there are better alternatives?
Framework laptops are interesting and I hope eventually the modularity allows the components to go down in price. Right now I was looking at a 16 (which all sold out within 3 hours of pre-order launch) but it comes out to easily over 3k CAD for a disassembled kit, skimping on RAM and an SSD.
yoo I didn't know about used/refurbished Thinkpads being that cheap, I just checked and indeed you can find a T480 with 16GB of RAM for $248 on Amazon!
Would also recommend the T480. Got mine for around €280 total (including shipping from ebay).
If youre looking definitely try them out
I can confirm this with personal experience. Wife has T470 (if memory serves, something around that) for 100€. That was from previous work and they offered my old laptop for cheap, so it doesn't really count as average, but not uncommon either at least around here. I got myself T495 a while ago for 299€ from "public" market and have been purchasing couple years old thinkpads for decades now. There's plenty of those available, they work just fine for the workload we have for laptops (I got a separate desktop for more power hungry applications) and they've proven to be pretty reliable workhorses since the brand was owned by IBM.
Framework specially is really interesting approach and I'd love to test to their hardware, but they don't have Finnish keyboard available just yet and I can get several used thinkpads for the price of one framework, so as long as I'm using my own hard earned money I rather spend it on a known brand where I already know what I'm getting into and spend considerably less money while doing so.
Also with linux thinkpads tend to work just fine or at least there's documentation and howtos to get everything working.
Where did you find a t495 for that price of you don't mind me asking?
Taitonetti.fi. Local shop which refurbishes and sells previously leased computers, so their selection varies quite a bit, but I've been a happy customer for years and they have frequent sales for the 'last of the batch' computers where mine came as well. However I think they don't ship to outside of Finland, so it might not be so helpful for you.
Those linux laptops are too expensive and they are not available in some countries
Used thinkpad is much cheaper
Maybe there's a better place for this question, but how do you make sure a used laptop is safe? Or would removing Windows and installing Linux be enough?
I want to buy a laptop for Linux, and would buy a used one so that it's cheaper but I have to admit I worry about it. I know one could be worried even about new laptops and what manufacturers could be up to, but I feel like the unknown arbitrariness of a used laptop gets to me.
Yeah, I am a bit paranoid because I know enough to be concerned but also lacking enough advanced technical skills to make me feel comfortable which makes me feel more paranoid. Haha
I do mostly worry about keyloggers or something that might hang around despite formatting and new OS. So I might just end up buying new to avoid the unending paranoia that I might project onto a used laptop.
Thanks though!
You could look into a Libreboot compatible model. When buying a used laptop for Linux the big thing you need to be careful of is a locked BIOS
this is what Im going through right now haha, found a old laptop in our ewaste but the bios is locked, watching a few videos on how to reset the bios I have to take the whole thing apart to short out two pins, might be worth it but it is definitely a project for another day
Depending on the model you might want to take a look and see if something like coreboot is available while you're at it
No shit installing Linux on an Acer (even though the hardware is horrible and doesnt support Linux) was way easier than on my T495. Also the Uefi is sooo damn slow, I can only imagine what proprietary hell they put in there. The Acer Uefi is 2s, the Thinkpad Uefi is like 7s its crazy, slower than booting Linux.
Because of better accessibility. How so?
Because not everyone has the money to afford these new and expensive laptops designed for a niche market. They are still enthusiast-grade products, the prices speak for themselves.
Because not everyone comes from Europe / the US, so it's not easy to find these with affordable shipping.
Because these laptops are only normally offered new, which, for responsible and personal ownership, is excessive. There are thousands of used hardware lying around, why not put some life back into them instead?
It comes down to price, availability and ethical concerns. Unless money doesn't mean anything to you, why do you need a $1000 laptop when someone wants a device for higher education or personal casual use? The world doesn't need more rampant marketing of niche, hyped-up tech. While a fully-FOSS system may be the ideal machine for every Linux enthusiast, we live in a material world with finite resources and chasing after some unicorn laptop is unsustainable.
I buy all my hardware, laptop and desktop parts, for these reasons.
Used*?
Hehe, yeah. Missed a word there!
Could be worse.
https://xkcd.com/243/
The biggest issue was the phone - Librem 5 - many customers waited 4 (or 5?) years and what they got was underwhelming. Purism originally provided "refund anytime" policy, but once customers started using that they lied they didn't promise that (disproven with wayback machine). The only reliable way to get the money back is to sue them in small court. They also had some other shady stuff.
I know nothing, why is Purism a scam?
Louis Rossmann did a video exposing their behavior, which was confirmed by others in the purism subreddit. They're acting super scummy and shady, leading people on for months and years about getting refunds and then ghosting them.
Also @ derbolle@feddit.de
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Scam is too strong of a word. I've got a Librem 5 and it works. I had to wait several years to get it, yeah, but that's about what I expected. Can't comment on their laptops, but I still doubt that scam is the right word.
Cause thinkpads are cheap and easy to come by
Source: i work in ewaste
Exactly this. Second hand thinkpads are stupidly cheap -- I'm currently typing on my $180AUD laptop. I never buy new.
yes. Companies goal is to essentially take in e-waste and used stuff, sort through it and pull out decent laptops/desktops wipe(or destroy) hard drive based on instructions, and resell. The company that gives us the goods gets a cutback of what's being sold. everything else that is junk is then sorted and recycled to their respective correct facilities. Gotta use the second R in the 3 R's and the third for whatever is considered old. What's considered old goods is still very desirable to another company, especially companies outside of the U.S where computers may be more expensive, especially when you're trying to get them in bulk.
the work laptop I use is definitely used goods, in fact relevant to thread as it is a 8th gen Thinkpad T490.
With everything I hear about good stuff going to waste, I highly enjoyed reading that.
Keep doing what you do, your workplace is cool
On what marketplace Are they sold? And can I buy a quantity of 1?
very rarely sell in quantities of one, but usually some of the end clients are resellers. If you're ever like on Amazon and find refurbished dell desktops, or any laptop in general (including apple products), there's a decent chance it came from an e-waste organization first before being bought by a reseller in bulk. There are some companies who "bling" old desktops and resell them in the market place.
In the US a lot of business use them. It's not uncommon to see a pallet of "old" ThinkPads at the swapmeet selling for less than $200. We're talking x1 Carbons. These machines have upgradable SSDs, Wifi, and battery. For less than $300 you can get a BEAST of a machine that runs Linux very very well.
Wish i had access to such cheap hardware. Companies in my country use them till it gets junked and most refurbishers sell for maybe 20% less than brand new but with significanly reduced warranty.
They can be found cheap as shit. I got a great t480 for less than $150 and another $50 I upgraded my RAM and battery. It's a really nice laptop and only cost me a couple hundred.
You're comparing ideal to "will get the job done" which is a big gap
The Thinkpad probably doesn't have a high resolution high refresh screen, which is exactly why I'm shelling out $1400 for the Framework.
To many of us that doesn't matter. My secondary machine is a laptop from 2008 (not a Thinkpad, though), with a standard-for-the-time 1280x800 17" screen, and I'm fine with that, because I'd rather have a coarse 16:10 17" screen than a high-res 16:9 14-15" one. Occasional window shopping suggests that a new laptop with a screen of the same physical size as my old one would cost more than I really want to pay at the moment.
You obviously have different priorities. That's fine—plenty of machines of different sorts to go around—but please try not to project your priorities onto others.
I think what hes trying to say (correct me if im wrong OP), is that not everyone needs that high end machine, so its not comparing apples to oranges as you seem to suggest. Its like comparing a Lamborghini to a regular albeit good sedan for the purpose of taking your kids to school, doing groceries, etc. If we ignore the obvious impracticalities of the Lambo for these jobs, sure its really cool, but if you can achieve the same task with the sedan (again ignoring that the Lambo might not allow you to conveniently achieve them and assuming practicality is equal so that the car analogy can fit in with the laptop question), why specifically go looking to get the Lambo?
Edit: meant to reply to nyan@lemmy.cafe
Cost.
Older Thinkpads remain extremely capable and (crucially) highly repairable. The T series in particular is also better built (read: more solid chassis) than many others, including some on this list.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.
I've had 4-5 such systems running Linux and never experienced any issues with BIOS.
Obviously you shouldn't get a model using nvidia if you want to run Linux on it (unless you are aware of the extra time it takes to set up and the other pitfalls). I do actually have a T440p with a 730m in it -- and it's fine, I just run the open-source driver.
If you're a FOSS enthusiast, might as well buy one of the models that are supported by Libreboot
Cost and availability.
Most of those laptops cost over 1000€ if not even closer to 2000. And they don't seem to ship to all countries.
While you can get a good used Thinkpad for 500€ everywhere in the world.
Exactly this - none of those vendors will sell to me, but I can get a ThinkPad shipped from any of the major local retailers, or direct from Lenovo themselves. I'd love a Framework, and I'm trying to set it up so I can get one shipped to a friend in the UK who will be visiting next year but I'm sceptical that the timing will work out or that Framework will accept my credit card
First of all I wouldn't use a pre-installed OS (I would always wipe and install my own for security reasons).
Secondly: Thinkpads (at least when I bought mine, last year) let you buy them without an OS and don't charge you for it.
Thirdly: the linked manufacturers above tend to be either US-centric and/or more expensive than Thinkpads.
Price. You can find second hand Thinkpad's whereas new laptops are very expensive.
They stand the test of time, used ones can be bought at reasonable prices, there is an abundance of configurations, and they still have the best (the only good) keyboards for any laptop.
What king of dell pro compares to a thinkpad?
not sure what you mean, but I find that Dells are also cheap (second hand) easy to find, reliable, solid and easy to maintain (like the hardware is easy to access for cleaning and replacing/updating).
edit : I'm using a latitude 5470 with lubuntu. I bought it second in a pawn shop a few years ago and added some RAM last year, it still runs like a charm.
yeah good luck getting those brand outside of US
Tuxedo is German? I had a laptop from them and it was perfect:-)
(It was a company laptop, unfortunately had to return it when I got a new job)
Thinkpads tend to have excellent build quality, solid firmware and well thought out design. Price to performance on second-hand models is always outstanding and their popularity ensures hardware compatibility with Linux.
Of the brands you named, I just don't trust the hardware. Tuxedo computers for example uses Tongfang white-label computers that they just slap their logo on. Quality control isn't as thorough as Lenovo's, firmware is sketchy, TDP tends to be all over the place and keyboard quality doesn't come close.
Thinkpads also have-- and I can't stress the importance of this enough-- a nipple. I don't really use it, but if you try to take it away from me I'll bite you.
It saddens me to say this, but don't buy from Purism. My Librem 5, after 2 years, still didn't arrive.
100% don't buy from Purism. I had their laptop. Librem 14? 15? And I gave it away to a friend after about a year. I had so many problems with it.
I had pre-ordered the phone but I asked for a refund just a month or so before everyone started saying they stopped giving refunds.
I have 4 pinephones, while they're not daily driver ready, they're awesome little devices and I've written a couple things for them. I also have 0 complaints about my system 76 laptop.
I opted for the Fir model, knowing version 2 would probably be 5–7 years away. My wife joked that we would have a school-age child before I got it… except it's slowly becoming not a joke (and we didn't even have kids when I preordered).
I usually grab a 3-4 year old Thinkpad every year or so for anywhere from free to 300 bucks. I pick them up from old corporate liquidation lots. Usually grab one that is a little dirty or beat up and then just clean it up and install my own SSD and upgrade ram from my stockpile.
I like some of the others on that list, but with how cheaply and easily I can get a Thinkpad, I just can't be bothered to spend more. I use my laptop mainly for code, and I do a lot of low-level programming so performance is usually way more than enough. The programs I write are extremely small and very efficient. Any processor from the last 20+ years will run what I am usually working on.
When I want to spend big bucks on a computer, I put that money towards my desktop where I do more gaming and some digital artwork.
Where do you buy them from?
I usually look for corporate office liquidations in the paper or on social media. Other than that, I stop into colleges and businesses and ask them if they have hardware they need to recycle. Companies usually pay for recycling, so sometimes they will just give you stuff to lower their recycling cost.
And lastly, ebay if all else fails.
The T series is probably my favorite. Currently I am running a P52 I got for free that was a recycle. A little big, but plenty of performance. Prior to this one I had a T460s with the i5 I got for free, it was just missing one of the two internal batteries and had a couple screen imperfections. Maybe in a year or two I will get lucky and get another T series.
I have no dog in this fight, but of the brands mentioned, I’ve heard of 1, and I consider myself fairly techy. Lenovo is a brand name that most people are going to recognize and implicitly trust (whether they should or not)
For me it is mostly the price. I don't need much and a Seconds Hand ThinkPad ist enough for my needs and much less expensive than buying a New Laptop.
None of them really match the ThinkPad reliability, cost effectiveness and after sales experience.
Lenovo makes great computers. They have amazing price-to-performance ratios.
The only reason I wouldn't buy Lenovo is they were caught twice shipping laptops with spyware, and on my NAS their upgrade firmware contained google ad banners. While this will not affect a linux reinstall it just shows they are a shit company
American producers are shipping NSA spyware as well. If this is a concern (which it should be), best thing is to install Linux on it yourself.
My third world country only have Thinkpad around so. It is what it is.
same
I'd say lack of marketing and higher price tags. Money / Performance ratio is also better with a decent Thinkpad.
Some of these options can't (or not without high markups) be bought and shipped to Canada.
Because it use common hardware and bought "en masse" by enterprises; they tend to be more supported with FOSS than other options.
I've been happy with my used T480 so far.
I second price to performance ratio. If I had more money to burn I probably would go all in on some of these Linux-targeted laptops.
I'd also add a lot of them seem overpowered for my needs. I do like me a big screen but I don't need a powerful GPU to go with it. I have a desktop rig for that. I can always just ssh into it if I need to do GPU heavy calculations.
Same scenario for me! My laptop only serve to have a device when I'm on-the-go, but at home, I use my desktop. It was one of the reason why I went with an older Thinkpad, it's well supported and with no dedicated GPU, it's dead silent most of the time. I'd love a 16:10 screen, but the options are pretty expensive and often not as repairable as my T480.
Haha, I think we're similar people. I also want a 16:10 screen. Maybe someday.
Refurbished ThinkPads are awesome!
Sent from my ThinkPad T580 (with both an internal and removable battery, I get 10+ hours of battery life)
I've heard of potential security issues when buying them. How can I mitigate that - buying from a safe source, wiping them etc.?
Thanks it sounds like simply wiping the system is enough to get around security flaws.
Always wipe and do a fresh install. If you're installing Linux, its unlikely that the refurbisher will have installed your flavour of Linux anyway. If you want to dual-boot with Windows, most business ThinkPads come with a Windows Pro licence - just download the ISO and install it fresh, then install Linux.
I bought a Framework once. The build quality was better than System76, but not great. However, Framework is not a Linux laptop. They designed it for Windows and only afterwards they were surprised to find that people wanted it for Linux.
A lot of Linux laptops don't have HiDPI displays because they're not really compatible.
Example Framework: https://community.frame.work/...
For years people have been trying to work around Framework's poor display choice. And they're still trying.
If you have a regular DPI display, you get to avoid a whole class of bugs and issues.
If you wanna have a good time with Linux, you need some mechanical sympathy.
Btw, tbh, brb, I've had good success with the Dell XPS 13 and the Lenovo X1 Carbon. System76 build quality was meh.
I did the OG Framework's DIY build. By far the best laptop build quality I've used. I'm a little partial because I love that the hardware is accessible. Clearly marked screws! Unlike my Lenovo X1 Carbon's that are just single boards (but I still really like them).
Complaining they chose HiDPI display is pretty funny though. My X1 Carbon 7th gen has a HiDPI screen, and I had to go through all the same UI scaling issues. Each toolkit had to be scaled differently. Chrome of course did their own thing. It was a PITA, but hardly because of the screen's hardware pixel density.
And to add, my Purism was trash and literally fell apart within months.
As someone running a Framework 13 with Fedora 38 with 1.5 fractional scaling using Wayland I cannot say I experienced the same issue. Everything kinda just worked out of the box.
Personally I couldn't go back from HiDPI screens. The lower resolution just makes stuff look blurry IMO.
Same reason most people recommend gettinf a Honda/Toyota when asked for a general recommendation for a car. If you need to ask the question, then your needs are probably not that specialized. So something generally reliable, widely accessible, and good value would be appropriate. Lenovo still tends to fit that description.
I'd recommend against any lenovo laptop after the T580 and T490. My company switched to dell since the lenovo laptops had so many failures and weird issues that we'd have to keep an extra one in stock for every 10 in use.
But if the older stuff suits your needs, go for it. Lenovo used to make great laptops.
Agree with this. Any Dell Latitude can easily be as good as any Lenovo in terms of Linux support. Our company has moved away from Lenovo and only go with Dell's.
In Denmark (maybe all of EU?), you can buy them a bit cheaper without OS.
Edit: It's a Danish ruling from 2011, according to this. But it's not that you can buy the machine without Windows, but that you can get a refund for Windows if you haven't activated it.
The story mentions that that's been Microsoft practice for several years prior, but that consumers rarely use the opportunity.
I don't like thinkpads anymore. They used to be great but Lenovo decided to kill off their best feature - the keyboards.
My fingers actually hurt when typing on a ThinkPad keyboard now. They are so shit.
I think people are nostalgic and they remember what the brand used to be. But I'm not impressed by them anymore. They keep scoring top marks at notebookcheck reviews however, but every new ThinkPad has disappointed me with bad screen or bad looks or feel.
To be honest, they also made them less serviceable. But in the not so long past they used to be really great. You can easily find replacement parts, upgrade them. If I have to buy a new one, I would buy Framework, if second hand is an option, ThinkPad is unbeatable, but you need to do a small research which model doesn't have soldered RAM and offers battery replacement.
I have an amazing screen on my T16. But I wish it had a better keyboard and more upgrade options.
I hope nobody recommends Thinkpads manufactured after 2020. They're pure garbage in so many ways, that there's no point to list them all.
Because I bought a Linux laptop from one of those vendors. It came with QubesOS but ran awful for it. I tried to debug but it fucking broke after 4 days.
That was 6 months ago and I'm still waiting for them to refund me after I sent back the broken device.
Never again. Thinkpad has my money for life if they keep making durable hardware.
Looks like Purism is the only one of the six that has Qubes as an option for preinstall.
Dell, HP and Lenovo can deliver with Linux pre-installed
So far, I have had great success using fedora on HP Envy series laptops
They are cheap and durable, and they work with most major Linux distros without much headache.
I have a spec'd out S76 Lemur, which is a great laptop for throwing in a backpack as a daily driver, and really packs a punch with a small footprint.
But I also have a couple ThinkPads that cost less than $100 to replace that I use for doing experiments in the field where a laptop is more likely to get damaged. No need to needlessly drag thousands of extra dollars in kit out into a mountain trail to do radio experiments. For that kind of work, these old systems have more than enough resources, and if I fall in a stream, or get caught in rain, the worst I have to do is replace the system for $80 refurbished on Amazon.
Of course, I've never actually had any issues requiring replacement, but ThinkPads are really hard to break. I'm not as convinced about the Lemur's durability, and would rather take fewer risks with it.
I'm sure it's not everyone's reason, but mine was "Thinkpad still has physical left, right and middle mouse buttons".
Used thinkpads especially the older ones (t480 and older) have a ton of extra parts floating around, and you can get them cheap. I built a t480 with 8th gen i7 from parts for around $170 over a year ago, it has been a great experience. I upgraded the trackpad and keyboard and plan to upgrade the screen, cooling, and battery next.
It really depends on where you are located for the things to be worth it. I had to buy a new keyboard for my t470 a few months ago after dropping a full latte on the computer top - only the keyboard got fucked, drain holes worked awesome and only need a little of internal drying and cleanup - and just that cost me 100 €.
It really is the best laptop I ever had and I had on my hands a much more recent X1 and currently a Dell XPS, both which I hated.
What I can say and be happy is that after all these years I can still at least find parts and buy them, any other computer I simply wouldn't be able to find any parts or after market for it.
But in my country basically impossible to find market for it or parts and only recently did people were able to order some few models from their online store, the thinkpads simply weren't sold besides business deals around here.
The X1 Carbon series is popular with Linux kernel devs, so it's had a lot of TLC. It makes a big difference for some stuff like sleeping. My Thinkpads handled sleeping really well, and I could expect to leave it sitting for at least a week and come back to somewhat low battery. My Framework laptops, as nice as they are otherwise, will drain the battery during sleep in 24h, no matter what I've tried. The situation is apparently better on the newer-gen Framework laptops, and IMO Framework's open nature will lead to a similar situation to Thinkpads, but it's not quite there yet.
Apart from sleep, I've heard complaints about the manufacturing quality of some of the other options, but haven't used them myself so can't verify. Might be why some people recommend the Thinkpads, though. I do really like the quality of the Framework, and I'd recommend people take a look at them over Thinkpads now, unless they care about sleep battery usage.
To chime in with some of the other answers, price also makes a difference. Thinkpads have been around long enough that there's a nice large used market. I got a rock-solid Thinkpad T480 for a few hundred dollars from some dude on Craigslist. My Framework is higher-specced and was paid for by my work, but it still starts out ~$800. I think it'll just take time before other manufacturers have a similar situation.
The second hand market for Lenovo laptops is usually pretty good. Lots of corporations have hardware cycles and recycle the things in huge waves. I've picked up an X230 and X270 for fractions of what they were worth new. Accessories too.
Those are all expensive, used Thinkpad is below the ground-dirt cheap...$150?!
My Thinkpad Ultrabook was insanely cheap even with a docking station. I do donate to Pop OS once a year though as a thanks for their work and I recommend the same. It's like $12 a year on their site and they do great work.
Trying to get one of their laptops but thats in short order for me, for now.
Adding on:
Price, keyboard and build quaility are my main reasons for buying a Thinkpad 3 years ago.
They are available for a good price second hand and their keyboard is the best laptop keyboard I've tried. Most of those Linux manufacturers use Clevo designs and thus the keyboard isn't amazing. Even if they design a laptop themselves it's difficult to nail the keayboard.
My next laptop will probably be from framework. But that depends whether I'm willing too spend as much and the other options available. And framework doesn't even sell laptops with Linux preinstalled.
Officially? Got a link?
Why are you shouting?
Seems like someone is new with Markdown notation haha :-)
You probably tried to write "number 1 [...]" but the hash (#) converted your whole text to a Heading level 1.
I'm very aware of markdown I use every day for work. The thing is I assumed they where referring to the way the text appeared to them. But out of the 3 different clients I use for Lemmy on mobile, the mobile site via chrome and the desktop site via chrome none of them render comments in markdown for me. So how are you all seeing markdown rendered in comments on lemmy? Everyone just assumes what they see is what everyone sees.
Because most of these brands offer high-end laptops, the secondhand market is small and the new ones vastly exceed the needs of a lot of users.
Most people just browse the web, stream media, use productivity apps…these things don’t need much horsepower. The majority of people don’t need to run AAA games or graphics/video editing on their laptop.
Because of this, there is a great market for secondhand business laptops, and tons of great deals there. And of the big business brands (HP, Dell, and Lenovo), Lenovo tends to have the most compatible hardware (while also usually being very easily serviceable or upgraded).
I bought a Lenovo T470s with charger and a decent battery at a flea market on Father’s Day for $100 USD and he had a stack of them. Ordered some more memory and a bigger NVMe for $70, and now I have a very useful, practical, everyday laptop for less than $200, and it dual-boots a licensed Windows 10.
I agree with a bunch of the comments here but wanted to add that there's a decades-long legacy of good FOSS/Linux support on Thinkpads. Before any of these companies existed, Linux was running pretty reliably on Thinkpads.
I do like the newer options with these newer manufacturers, but I won't be getting rid of my Thinkpads any time soon. I'm running a Framework now too.
I've gotten a lenovo legion 5 for something around 1600$, with a 3070 rtx on it. Before that I had another legion as well, with 2060. I've gotten intel both times, my friend got the amd one. Why? They are a bit cheaper than the competition and I don't really understand why asus version of essentially the same hardware costs more. Why not a linux oriented company instead of lenovo? Well linux isn't as out of reach as it was 10 or even 5 years ago. Almost every driver you need is available even if you do a clean arch install out of the box. So why get a device that you can't easily sell later on, won't get god warranty services overseas and might be hard to repair in a pinch?
All this to say, get whatever you like. I think even on a macbook you can get a perfectly fine linux setup. I hate it when people assume linux needs to run on something specific and is out of reach. Get what you like at whatever price range you want, you'd be hard pressed to run into an issue installing and using linux on it.
I've gamed, developed web and android apps, patched kernel on asus rog series, lenovo legion series, some random msi model and a base configuration acer model. Almost zero problems.
I bought a Lenovo last year to install Linux on. I've never heard of most of those, but I have been keeping an eye on System 76 for years and researched their offerings.
I don't recall everything that made me go with the Lenovo, but after my last (Dell) laptop started developing issues that appeared to be related to it flexing, I wanted something with a stronger case, and System 76's laptops appear to have plastic cases. I help run a trade show-type thing, and I sometimes walk around with the laptop, and I will occasionally balance it with one hand, while entering info with the other. I think the case started flexing, and the touchpad (I'm guessing) started giving spurious inputs, causing all kinds of headaches last year. So I wanted something with a solid case like my old aluminum body Macbook Pro had.
I recognize this is limited requirement, most people aren't going to have this issue.
Give me something less than 15k INR and I might consider it
Where do you get usedlthinkpads for that price? All i find are 4th gen mini pc refurbished at at price. Best hw was a 8550u, 8gb ram Asus chromebox. Would love to get a decent used thinkpad for 15k.
Intel 4th gen is alright imo
for another (other than Tuxedo) EU based solution: https://slimbook.es/en/
(They are at Valencia, Spain).
But I have no about idea its quality as I have never tried one.
I have a Slimbook PRO X AMD. Except for the rubber bands on the bottom coming loose after ~2 years, it just works. And I never had a laptop from any manufacturer where the rubber feet/bands did not start to peel of after a few years.
Just got one of their Executive line, with their own Ubuntu fork, and is keeping up quite nicely. I was looking for thinkpads but read about the quality drop in latest models, so I gave them a try. They do a decent job re. drivers and support a range of Linux distros.
Thinkpads are cheap and accessible basically everywhere. They are business-grade devices and you can get one when folks retire their machines. A lot of places practically give them away. They were just gonna get thrown out anyways.
Framework is dumb expensive - a 16 even skimping out on RAM/HDDs comes out to over 3k CAD, and that's for a disassembled kit -- pre-built with full components comes out to easily over 3.5k, which is like a MacBook price for the promise of upgradability down the line.
System76 are rebranded shitty components from Chinese manufacturers. They're not better for Linux than any general consumer laptop, and their entire position is basically branding regarding freedom and 1776. Ironic that a company so deeply American in nature basically just resells garbage from China.
People will say many things. But at the end of the day, it’s the keyboard. I honestly cannot think of a company that does keyboards better than Lenovo (formerly IBM).
I have a tuxedo. I love it. But...
I find Ubuntu to be the best out of the box. I would not use Arch as a productivity machine. My laptop runs EndeavourOS and I was able to get it to a decent place for dicking around. Manjaro hardware manager helps the process of getting the Nivida driver, but Nvidia recently open sourced their newer drivers so they are generally included upstream as part of most package managers. I just had to install nvidia-dkms and it works fine for gaming now. I can do DXVK stuff with Lutris (WoW), run Proton emulation (basically everything else), or just natively run Vulkan games.
If I were to have to stick to a distro to make professional day-to-day use with I would probably pick Ubuntu. It's the most well supported overall by communities, and it's one of the most consistent experiences within the Linux environment. Every other distro has some stupid hacky way of connecting to proprietary clouds, while Ubuntu just has native OneDrive and GDrive capabilities. Having access to those shared drives for my org is one of the most important parts of my job, and on most distros I just can't access them outside of the browser.
I bought a System76 Pangolin 11, then replaced it with a ThinkPad X13 within a few months because the battery life was trash. Total workhorse but it would die on me in meetings if I was sharing my screen.
those manufacturer either have to charge thouthands, or use the cheapest possible hardware they can find to be interesting compared to the thinkpads of old, which can take a punch or two and get replacement parts
For people starting with Linux I am more comfortable to recommend them second hand/used laptops. And Thinkpads are prime examples for repairability and upgradability so you find a loot more Thinkpads that go for cheaper.
Besides that. My next Laptop is either gonna be a framework or something from Tuxedo.
PS: I know that newer Thinkpads lack in repairability. I have a X1 Carbon with soldered-on RAM... Suffice to say I wouldn't buy that again...
Ew, wtf. Every machine should have replaceable RAM and SSDs.
Yes replaceable M.2, but the 8 GB soldered-on RAM is not enough these days
Some of these dont really ship worldwide. Not all of them offer a good bang for the buck in terms of hardware specs, and big companies sometimes offer more options (system76 traditionally didnt offer screens over FHD, most laptops are only 14"....).
What do you like about it?
First off all, the components are selected for the Linux compatibility, so it's guaranteed to work. But they also provide some tools to make sure you use the preferred drivers, a control center tool for customising fan speeds, etc. All of which are open source. They even provide the windows drivers for all configs for when you want to dusk boot (and those are even fairly up to date).
The first machine I ever installed with a distro was an MSI Ultrabook and Linux, out of the box, visibly improved the overall performance of the machine, with no need for benchmarking. After tweaking and fine tunning, it only improved.
After that came a long series of Asus, a few HP, one or two Dell. Always flawless installs, out of the box. The only exception I can remember of was a very specific HP model where the modem had to be manually installed.
Having a hand full of companies designing and building for linux feels like being part of an exclusive, Apple-like club; the prices are high, the choice limited.
We should be pressing the industry to recognize the linux ecosystem for what it is: a stable OS, with an ever growing user base with money to spend that want quality support for the equipments they buy.
Price, used thinkpads are cheap. I know I can get parts basically anywhere too.
One factor is that laptops need a little more design work to build out main boards and validate relative to a desktop, especially considering that you optimizing for power draw and that very little of the design is socketed. As a result a good chunk of the Linux laptop market uses OEM provided designs and then tailors their software around it. Last I heard system76 was working to bring that design work in house.
Framework is available outside of those areas.
It's available, but they're still US based and basically importing it, you don't have proper EU customer protection or EU warranty* for example. I wouldn't buy it just because of that.
* They give 2 years of warranty for their EU customers, but not EU wide as would be required if actually selling from the EU. You also have basically no chance to sue then or otherwise demand anything if they for some reason ignore your warranty claim.
Yeah but it's incredibly expensive for the gimmick of upgradability down the line. It's like buying a maxed out MacBook Pro worth of disassembled components, bringing your own RAM, SSD and OS. As much as I want repairable, upgradable, holy grail laptops, they are way to expensive for the average consumer right now. A 16 without RAM/SSD/OS comes out to like 3k CAD -- including everything with assembly, it comes out to over 3.5k.
They still do a good job with build quality and I use them for work. I also use framework 13 as my personal computer, it is great and I like it but it does not feel as premium as my work laptop. It is probably a trade off for modularity though
My work laptop is dogshit, but I do love my personal P50. I've preordered the Framework 16 to replace it, though.
Also Vant and Slimbook from Spain. I own a PC from Vant and I'm happy with it but I would think twice before buying a laptop for 1.5k when I can just get a used lenovo for half that price and use it for next 10 years.
The olde ones are nice. Not sure about the newer ones. I have two T420s and one T430. The 420 was the last of the chicklet keys I think. Can swap CPU/RAM as well. The 430 has the CPU soldered in like most major brand laptops do meow.
Framework has some quality problems, not everyone is a fan of the keyboard, and it's relatively expensive.
Tuxedo is quite good, but they often use stock Clevo models and customize them, so they might be cheaper and not that well designed than one by a "proper brand".
Not sure about the rest.
There's very little alternative if you want a ThinkPad style keyboard and track pad/trackpoint for the price of a used or older ThinkPad.
Last time I was looking, they were one of the few laptops that I've seen that come with a trackpad with three mechanical buttons. Linux makes better use of three buttons than some other environments, and I like mechanical buttons.
There may be other vendors out there now that also do so.
Absolutely. It's a shame that this has become so rare. Even the Framework laptop, which is put together in a modular manner, allowing pieces to be swapped in and out, doesn't give the option of having a touchpad with actual buttons.
I could have a full rant about it, but based on their lack of availability, I suspect I've got a minority opinion.
Right there with you. I'd love it if someone adapted the Lenovo ThinkPad trackpad into a form that would work to plug into the Framework 16. I strongly prefer physical buttons.
Didn’t Lenovo like 15 years ago make a line of desktops that shipped with some redhat derivative installed? Or am I thinking of something else?
They still sell with Fedora pre-installed
i think I saw a few only a couple of years ago
I have some preferences in hardware (Vendors are still riding the 4k-in-laptop-size bandwagon) and Thinkpad has good customizability.
Just looked into Malibal, they have no less than WQHD currently and i get a top of the line customized Thinkpad for less than their 2000+.
I used this guy in the past. They deal clevo.
Great service.
@const_void@lemmy.ml because of quality of construction. I have thinkpad a running Linux that are more than 10 years old and all this without vendor support. Being able to find parts even after so many years is also important.Do any of these Linux friendly vendors have similar quality and similar prices?
Whenever I think about getting one of those systems I really don’t know if the company is going to exist in the next few years.
Side question since a lot of people knowledgeable about Thinkpads are here. What's a good used thinkpad model that can support remastered classic games like StarCraft and Quake II? All my linux distros are on HP and MSI hand-me-downs that are starting to break down, and I've been wanting to get a cheap, used thinkpad.
I didn't know about Starlabs but apparently THEY HAVE SHIPMENTS TO MEXICO YES!!! regarding your question these are these major reasons:
Linux is DIY by nature. Buying a fancy, brand new laptop is not.
Not saying you can’t do both. I’m just saying the Linux ethos lends to more crafty people.
The Lenovos are cheaper to repair by and large, because there's just so many of them. I find HPs have overheating issues and I steer clear of them as a manufacturer.
Our Lenovo notebooks from the last 2 years sound like a jet engine, even when you look at the desktop, known problem, they don't care or give you a possible solution.
My Dell does the exact same thing, or at least did when it was running Windows. I would go to put it to sleep and the fan would spin up like a jet engine, as if it was thinking really hard and doing the exact opposite of what I told it to.
That's because of the broken "modern standby". https://www.youtube.com/embed/6ykdtaIAG_0
Recently I had to decide what laptop I buy and I decided to buy an used Thinkpad T480s for 260€
I was browsing in the Framework and Slimbook websites but the price it's more than three times. It's true that they are new and the Thinkpad is used, but I was looking for Framework and Slimbook in second-hand websites but I didn't find nothing.
While as a British person I'm naturally biased against the USA 🤣 not all US companies are bad and spy on their users come on this isn't China
@lemmy.ml
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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
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@lemmy.ml
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
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It comes down to price. You can buy used ThinkPads and replacement parts for them quite cheap a lot of the time.
It's been a while since I've looked at devices from places like System 76 but if I recall correctly they are still over a thousand dollars when a used ThinkPad T440P for example can be found for around two hundred dollars.
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