Can things exist without anyone being aware of their existence?

a day ago by Ahmed to c/asklemmy

Mikina 34 points a day ago

People were dying en-masse because you had doctors not washing their hands when moving from autopsies to giving birth.

No one was aware about the germs that are causing this. It still killed people.

This is true for most of the early medicine/illneses/hygiene, this was just an example I remember. Especially in regards to germs and bacteries, the humanity wasn't even close to getting it right.

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jerkface 0 points 18 hours ago

Perhaps I just confabulated all that, and your comment. Perhaps in the process, I manifested the history therein described.

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marxismtomorrow 26 points 19 hours ago

No, things outside the player's field of view are unloaded to save memory, obviously.

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Ahmed 1 point 13 hours ago

If that’s the case, would things outside our field of view still have an effect on us? And to what extent?

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BenLeMan 1 point 2 hours ago

In a good game they do, but those effects can be abstracted rather than simulated to save processing power.

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luthis 15 points a day ago

Obviously, yes. But now the question is, can you be aware of things that don't exist?

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ILikeToMeow 5 points a day ago

As fiction exists but describes things that may not exist, I think the answer is also yes.

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Ahmed -2 points a day ago

Maybe we’re not aware of a non-existent thing itself, but of an idea or perception in our minds.

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luthis 1 point 20 hours ago

Actually this is the right answer, and doesn't deserve the downvotes.

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ILikeToMeow 1 point 3 hours ago

I think me and Ahmed gave the same answer, but with mine being indirect using an example, and Ahmed's answer being direct, so maybe people had a harder time understanding Ahmed's answer.

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pmk 1 point 21 hours ago

How does this differ from having an idea or perception in our minds about existing things?

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Ahmed -1 points 19 hours ago

purely imaginary things exist only in the mind.

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pmk 0 points 19 hours ago

But are we aware of existing things in themselves, apart from the idea and perception in our minds?

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kalkulat 9 points 18 hours ago

Animals are sometimes declared 'extinct' (no one is aware of any living examples) while they still exist (sometimes for decades).

Until 1967, noone was aware of the existence of gamma-ray bursts, the result of the biggest explosions in the universe. The bursts were only visible to specialized satellites.

Right now, people are suffering from diseases caused by unknown viruses.

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lonefighter 8 points 20 hours ago

Well I exist, despite it seeming that no one else in the world is aware of my existence.

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Amro 2 points 18 hours ago

You're ruining it.

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cynar 7 points 18 hours ago

Object permanence is technically an axiom. The idea that things exist even when we aren't observing them.

There's also a problem with terms, particularly related to quantum mechanics. It uses the term observer. To a layman, that's a person watching. To a scientist its any collection of atoms/fundamental particles that can cause the quantum waveform to collapse.

The results of the axiom are that things do exist when we are not observing them. Our observations don't back propagate to retroactively bring them into existence. We can't prove that however, though it's fundamental to a lot of science making sense (quantum mechanics being the oddball).

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howrar 2 points 16 hours ago

Does the concept of an axiom actually exist and make sense in physics? I thought we just had models.

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cynar 2 points 15 hours ago

One of the goals is to minimise them. Most of those left are blindingly obvious, but unprovable. They are technically there, but just part of the base assumptions of the models.

E.g. we couldn't do science if an all powerful being was deliberately messing with our results. We also can't prove the universe isn't a computer program, only rendering what a "conscious" entity is looking at, while back calculating the required history on the fly.

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Mantzy81 7 points 20 hours ago

Bacteria and viruses existed for billions of years before humans ever existed and the majority of the time since. Dinosaurs existed before we were aware of them. Lots of things have.

This isn't a very well thought out Shower Thought

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Azzu 2 points 17 hours ago

That's what you think, but as soon as I leave this comment thread and become unaware of it, I'm sorry to say, but you will stop existing. Tough luck.

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jerkface 0 points 18 hours ago

Dinosaurs have conscious awareness. They were "anyone". Some evidence suggests that consciousness is a fundamentally intra-cellular process that became inter-cellular, and that even the simplest organisms exploit some form of consciousness.

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gointhefridge 6 points a day ago

Yes, my one man black metal project exists and no one knows about it. 🥺

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ivanafterall 2 points a day ago

I can't believe it's you! Your one-man black metal project changed my life!

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luthis 1 point 20 hours ago

One man black metal? Must be fuckin excellent!

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Cowbee 6 points 18 hours ago

Yes, they necessarily do.

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Fleur_ 6 points 9 hours ago

Write your definition for "things" and that'll answer your question for you.

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BenLeMan 1 point 2 hours ago

This is the correct answer. It seems like matter and energy exist regardless of our attentions but the rest comes down to ontology. What is a thing? How does it come into being? How does it cease to be?

Next, ask yourself "do things need to be made of matter and/or energy to exist?" What about Mickey Mouse?

Then you move on to questions like "does a piece of art exist if nobody has ever witnessed it?"

And finally, the psychiatric ward. 😜

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blimthepixie 5 points a day ago

That's solipsism

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Ahmed -4 points a day ago

Why do you think it’s solipsism? Can you explain your reasoning?

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inlandempire 5 points a day ago

I mean, they don't have to think it's related to Solipsism, by definition Solipsism id an answer to your question

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BrundleFly2077 5 points a day ago

Why are all your responses in bold, you mad lad?

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deadbeef79000 5 points a day ago

Yes. Because people are not the only observers.

What qualify as observers though? Or, how far divorced from an event counts as unobserved?

If a tree falls in a forest and scares a rabbit which a dog barks at which I hear... is that chain of observation enough to grant existence to the tree?

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victorz 3 points a day ago

Does existence only count if there is an observer to observe it? I don't understand this notion.

I think about this every time I drive long distances, passing through forest.

"That tree over there is just standing there, all hours of every day, winter and summer, just waiting. Then I drive by it for 2 seconds. Then it still stands there, waiting."

Similarly I think of rocks rotating in silence around planets, stars. Or orphan rocks around galaxies, in darkness, and also silence. They're just there, for millions of millennia. Without anyone's knowledge. But surely they exist.

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Melobol 4 points a day ago

Technically they exist.
But do they exist for you if you don't even think of them? Theological/ philosophycal views might say no.
Tho you can still be affected by unkown therefore "non-existent" things.
Nowadays I call "tap to pay" magic. I know the very basic things to go in there - but I couldn't recreate it. Thos is kinda the same tone as your question.

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FriendOfDeSoto 3 points a day ago path: 0 24376080, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 3
Ahmed -3 points a day ago

I know this example, but I want to see what people think from their own point of view. Like,Do things exist independently of our awareness of them?

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victorz 4 points a day ago

Yes they do. Otherwise we would never discover anything. Unless one would mean that the people who have discovered everything that has ever been discovered were also the creators of those things. And that seems far-fetched.

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FriendOfDeSoto 3 points a day ago

BUT IF YOU READ IT YOU WILL FIND OUT THAT PEOPLE ARE DIVIDED OVER THIS ISSUE. SO THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE ANSWER.

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AstroLightz 3 points 14 hours ago

Your question is a lot like this thought experiment:

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Whatever your answer is to the above text can be applied to your question.

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Ephera 2 points 10 hours ago

The atoms are there for sure, but we could argue, whether it is a thing/object without an animal being aware of it, since it's us that define things to be objects.

The universe doesn't care whether a pile of atoms behind Pluto happens to be chair-shaped. It's only when we look at it, that we declare it an object.

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dan1101 1 point 17 hours ago

Of course. I think there are many things that we haven't detected because we lack the instruments or even the concept they exist

Humans are constantly discovering life on Earth in places it was thought impossible, like deep underground or in very hot water around volcanic vents.

Certain cancers (HPV, EBV, HBV) have been discovered to be caused by viruses, not just randomly out of control cell replication.

IMO even astronomers suffer from short-sightedness. They tend to classify things in terms of our own little solar system when actually with billions of stars and trillions of planets there are likely very many astronomical objects and phenomenon that we have never observed or thought of.

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sniggleboots 1 point a day ago

This isn't really an answer to your question, but I think it's more in the spirit of it than some of the actual answers you're getting;

Does something exist just because you observed it?

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DeathsEmbrace 0 points a day ago

The duality behind being both aware of something that can exist without your knowledge while also not being aware of its existence. Depending on if it's conception has been conceived first. Then it would exist without any knowledge and would count. But if you know it can exist than its already a possibility.

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Korhaka 0 points 20 hours ago

At one point no one knew how gravity worked and yet the earth still orbited the sun

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slazer2au 0 points 21 hours ago

Yep. There are many billions of people around the world who don't know you exist yet you do. Although how sure are you that you exist?

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AlmightyDoorman 1 point 21 hours ago

Well at least one person is aware they exist, so anyone does not qualify

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daggermoon 0 points a day ago

Things can and do.

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random_character_a 0 points a day ago

So, can something exist that is in no way quantium entangled with anything that comprises your experience of existence?

If you subscribe to the multiworld principle, basically anything potentially viable can and will.

Can something exist if you are not aware of it?

Most of reality. Human experience is quite limited.

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AbouBenAdhem 0 points a day ago path: 0 24376313, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 2
waterbird 0 points 19 hours ago

I am half awake and my brain for some reason decided that you had written ‘political realism.’ I literally read it and was like ‘huh, makes sense,’ before moving on and then abruptly stopping when my actual processing finally caught up, like ‘wait, what?’

The more I sit here considering, the more it feels like political realism should really be a thing.

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waterbird 0 points 19 hours ago

Looks like it actually is a thing!

https://en.wikipedia.org/...

I was thinking more about the ‘reality’ which politicians present to people than states interacting with one another, but this is interesting too.

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