openmic.social — a new open-discourse instance that doesn't shadowban

4 days ago by phil to c/fediverse

Hey all — just launched openmic.social, a general-purpose Lemmy instance with a specific mission: open discourse + transparent, restorative moderation.

The pitch is simple — anyone can grab the mic — and the thing that makes us different is what happens when you cross a line:

No shadowbans, ever. If your post is removed or your account is actioned, you're told — what happened, which rule, and how to fix it.
We help before we punish. A heads-up and a path back come before a ban. Bans are the last resort, not the first reflex.
Moderation in the open. Every call is appealable, publicly, in our !meta community.
Hard lines only: nothing illegal, no targeted harassment, no doxxing, no spam. That's what keeps the mic open for everyone.

We're brand new, which means early adopters shape the culture. Come introduce yourself, bring a community that needs a home, or start one — I'll help you set it up and mod it.

🎤 https://openmic.social/

eurodyne 53 points 4 days ago

It has been my experience that “free speech” (especially online) is code for “bigotry welcome”.

I see nothing in the description here to convince me this will be any different.

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phil -2 points 4 days ago

No definitely not trying to allow bigotry. You are definitely entitled to feel that way though.

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eurodyne 13 points 4 days ago

But it doesn’t appear that you’re specifically disallowing it either

You are definitely entitled to feel that way though.

My concern is that this is what you will also say to the bigots when they arrive

When you sit down at a table and nine Nazis sit down at that table with you, there are now 10 Nazis sitting at that table.

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givesomefucks 9 points 4 days ago

Then it's not "free speech and anything legal is cool"

Like, it's not a bad thing to ban bigotry, that's a good thing...

Which is why when you said it was "free speech"...

Everyone called you out for, either:

Lying
Allowing bigotry

There's only those two options buddy...

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Pennywise -6 points 4 days ago

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6_Electrons 4 points 4 days ago

Seeing all your low effort shit posts makes me believe you're a joy in real life

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Pennywise -4 points 4 days ago

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ada 31 points 4 days ago

So, transphobia, racism, misogyny, all acceptable as long as it's aimed broadly, and doesn't become targeted harassment of an individual?

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phil -1 points 4 days ago

On the reverse of that, if you want to promote the opposite you are more than welcome to, free speech is a two way street. I don't really tolerate hate though. Maybe I'll update our description.

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ada 12 points 4 days ago

That's not good enough. You're saying they have the right to attack people, but at least the targeted people can defend themselves. Those are not comparable

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eurodyne 5 points 4 days ago

free speech is a two way street

it really isn't

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BucketBong -4 points 4 days ago

It is tho, a homophobe can say what they want and I can call them a bigoted piece of shit. That's a 2 way street. Now if they could say what they wanted and I couldn't say what I wanted, that's a one way street.

So I can call a bigoted homophobe a bigoted homophobe, and they can say what ever unintelligent crap they want.

Consequences of actions is more of a one way street, something bigoted assholes can't mentally understand.

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eurodyne 7 points 4 days ago

"two-way street" implies an equal exchange, not just equal opportunity to speak, and only someone who's never been on the receiving end of one would ever make the mistake of thinking there's anything equal about it.

in fact, the only ones I've ever heard make that argument are bigots themselves, trying to excuse or defend their bigotry while shifting blame to their victims for "not standing up for themselves" or some other victim-blaming bullshit.

DARVO (an acronym for "Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender") is a reaction that perpetrators of wrongdoing, such as abusers, narcissists, or sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior.[1] Research indicates that it is a common manipulation strategy of psychological abusers.

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molestme247 1 point 4 days ago

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phil 0 points 4 days ago

Curious what your goal is?

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molestme247 1 point 4 days ago

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molestme247 1 point 4 days ago

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Pennywise -3 points 4 days ago

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Dave 19 points 4 days ago

You might have been expecting the response you got here, or you might not have. I know I learnt more about nazi/hate speech dogwhistles in my first few weeks as a Lemmy admin than I had learnt in all my life up to that point 😅.

I also know in those early days there were people worried my instance was a "free speech" instance because I wanted open conversations instead of bans. Mostly I think I didn't appreciate how big of a problem it was, and for sure I had people registered on my instance expecting it was a "free speech" instance. There are people out there looking for a place to spout their hate and many think Lemmy is the place for it because it's advertised as censorship resistant.

Please know that there is a strong belief (among both nazis and anti-nazis) that indicating a place as being able to speak your mind is a dog whistle for allowing hate speech. Over time if you find you aren't attracting the right kind of members, you may need to tweak your wording. But also please know that the idea of supporting people to be better community members instead of flat out banning people does work for many members, because many people just don't realise that what they are saying is harmful. Some people will be operating in bad faith though, and it's typically the same small number of people that keep getting banned. Because you have open registrations, these users are more likely to come to your instance.

It's also important to understand that the Fediverse is full of users that have felt unsafe on mainstream social media. Your rules against hate speech need to be strictly enforced, of you'll find yourself isolated in the Fediverse as no one will want to federate with you.

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phil 4 points 4 days ago

Thanks! This is by far the most constructive comment I have gotten and truly appreciate it. I’m learning and always will adjust as needed. I’m open to constructive criticism and more importantly any insight others who have done this can provide. The immediate assumptions about me and my goals were at best amusing and not at all constructive however, somewhat unsurprising to be honest.

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artyom 13 points 4 days ago

So if I wanted to start a pro-nazi community there, you would permit that?

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Pennywise -7 points 4 days ago

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anzo 12 points 4 days ago

Lemmy has bans, no shadowbans. There's no recommender algorithm to make the "shadow" part. Or mod tool to edit votes. I believe you are using incorrectly the term. Please clarify. A ban is a ban. Shadowban is no ban per se, but from there on you post to /dev/null in whichever platform has support for that shit (i.e. meta)

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OpenStars 8 points 4 days ago

Lemmy most definitely has shadowbans, but they are applied at the level of whole entire communities rather than end-users. I remember being on the StarTrek.Website instance when that functionality was added to the Lemmy code, and discussing with someone my finding out that ChapoTrapHouse was no longer accessible from it, despite the fact the instance remained federated. No announcement of that fact was ever made iirc, it's just that one day poof the behavior has changed, after Lemmy deployed a version that allowed for that.

Some few instances are very open about their hiding of communities - see e.g. https://legal.programming.dev/..., listing in detail every one - but most are not, and the Lemmy UI has nothing at all like the list that it shows for (de)federations.

The Lemmy admins also can remove people even from the modlogs, in cases of severe abuse. Tbf it's exceedingly rare and there is little evidence of this being abused (well there was one time, but the excuse that it was due to a bug seemed believable to me and most everyone else - Lemmy.ml quite often tests new versions of the code before they get rolled out to the rest of the Threadiverse, which is quite helpful actually).

Lemmy also fails to notify someone of their having been moderated. The various communities are FULL of stories of people asking where their posts went, or why they can no longer post to a community, or stating their discovery that they have an event in the modlog. The notification of moderation activities is exceedingly poor on the Lemmy platform.

Sadly, Reddit does a much better job at notification of an event, and also provides for a modmail to communicate with the mods to discuss the situation, e.g. to ask why, rather than leaving it to the end-user to wonder if they should DM each one listed in sequence until they find one that is even active much less responsive...

Lemmy is imperfect. At least Huffman is not in charge here, but conversely the tools have aways to go before we catch up even to what Reddit offers.

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givesomefucks 6 points 4 days ago

Lemmy has bans, no shadowbans.

Multiple instances and even an app has built in blocks.

Instead of looking up a profile and seeing "banned" you get an error. Instead of seeing an an entry in the modlog, it's literally baked into the code.

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OpenStars 1 point 3 days ago

About Tesseract: Admins tend to move exceedingly slowly... but I would guess that at this point given the severity of the breach, most instances might be amenable to at least roll back to an older version before implementation of the hidden shadow list, or perhaps even to switch to using db0's fork that removes it? Except that db0 is also antagonizing especially LW and possibly even calling for defederation from them at some future date, so I could see strong hesitancy to make stronger tie-ins with him at that point, especially given the sensitivity already surrounding the Admiral Patrick issue - so perhaps they would want to simply deprecate it altogether. It is a quite popular one though.

Most of the discussion that I've seen so far is merely bravado e.g. bragging about having made it into the list of shadow-banned users, rather than efforts to move forward to a positive resolution.

So instance admins might welcome such a discussion... perhaps after a cooling-off period first?

However, Tesseract is not a 3rd-party app - it's an alternative front-end UI for Lemmy. So that means then that i.e. it's not up to individual users to change the version offered, and instead is solely under control of each individual instance admin that offers that alternative.

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CaptainBasculin 10 points 4 days ago

Lemmy itself doesnt have shadowbans, all ban logs are public.

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eleijeep 9 points 4 days ago

Will your management of the instance be as low effort as your introductory post that you obviously didn't write yourself?

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the_q 9 points 4 days ago

This either already is or will become a hotbed for rightwing pieces of shit.

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mrdown 9 points 4 days ago

Do you allow Nazi like ideologies like Zionism?

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Pennywise -5 points 4 days ago

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mrdown 3 points 4 days ago

No we are not. I don't support ethnic cleansing and I, do not believe in any race being superior to another unlike Zionism

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Pennywise -2 points 4 days ago

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mrdown 2 points 4 days ago

There is no good Zionists

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QuentinCallaghan 8 points 4 days ago

What is your definition of free speech?

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phil 10 points 4 days ago

Fair question, and have sat thinking about answering it changed my mind about the wording I am using.

What I actually built is due process, not a speech policy — no shadowbans, you're told which rule you broke, warnings before bans, public appeals. That came from getting shadowbanned off Reddit for advertising my own business with no notice and no recourse.

"Free speech" was the wrong description for that and I've pulled it from the description. The line I'm drawing: you can argue an unpopular position here without being removed for it, but you can't dehumanize people for who they are. Bigotry isn't dissent — it drives out the people who make a place worth being in. I personally want OpenMic to be welcoming to others, with out the disenfranchising hate, or destructive speech. It'll be there, it'll happen and I'll do my best to clean it up. I can promise one thing I learned a long time ago is we can all find something to disagree about, and we can easily come up with reasons to hate one another. Thats not very interesting and makes life not fun.

So while I appreciate your question (part of me thinks it had ulterior motives and was more of a trap, this thread is full of it) I think my use of free speech may have been misguided. I also teach my kids regularly that while you have freedom of speech, you don't have freedom of consequences because of that speech.

I am human, I am learning as I go, I am definitely not perfect. I am however willing to learn and improve.

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ada 14 points 4 days ago

People aren't trying to trap you. What you're seeing is vulnerable people who have seen and heard all of this before trying to get your boundaries out in the open before your instance gets momentum. That way, they can decide whether to interact with your instance, block it or defederate it before being exposed to yet more hate targeting them under the veneer of "civil debate".

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QuentinCallaghan 2 points 4 days ago

Okay, I say that is a lot more concise definition for what you're aiming for. When a website declares to be for "free speech", it carries a certain connotation these days. Look what Twitter has become after it got bought by Elon Musk and turned into a "free speech website" for example. And good that a line has been drawn so that bigotry isn't allowed.

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phil 0 points 4 days ago

Thanks. I’m working on it. I don’t really have tolerance for hate and I’ll be honest I think many of the people here are just as bad ad the ones they are commenting against. I also realize we’ve all lived a different experience and I have to allow room for that, at the end of the day I have zero tolerance for hate.

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phil 2 points 4 days ago

Also, in full transparency. You won't find me in debates or discourse about much of the "hot topics" or the "footgun topics" Politics, Religion, etc. They frankly rarely produce any meaningful output or outcome and often devolve into circular arguments and hate on both sides of an issue. I personally am far more interested in technical discussions, engineering discussions, and business discussions.

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molestme247 0 points 4 days ago

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spaceracoon 8 points 4 days ago

Thank you! Pre-blocking this so I won't have any splash damage my main feed. "Open mic" translates too much on nazi or hate baiting nowadays. Open socials need moderation or become chesspools. I do not hang out with toxic people in real life, I don't understand the principle that "I have to" do it digitally. Hard pass. Good luck!

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the_abecedarian 8 points 4 days ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

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EmilyIsTrans 6 points 4 days ago

Lemmy already has public ban logs which have reasons listed. I'm not sure what you're really offering here. I think you're being extremely naive and are fundamentally lacking understanding in how oppression and the "marketplace of ideas" functions.

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frongt 6 points 4 days ago

Illegal where? Criticism of Israel is illegal in Germany, for example.

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eremophila 1 point 4 days ago

It is illegal in Australia as well, where anti-israel/anti-zionism/anti-genocide has been remarketed as anti-semitism.

Potential 2 year prison sentence for saying 'from the river to the sea' in one of the Australian states.

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cheese_greater 1 point 4 days ago

How do they square that with freedom of speech or like, defenses of fact?

Like how defense of fact is a valid defense against libel laws since the speech at issue was based on known facts or "truth"

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FriendOfDeSoto 4 points 4 days ago

There are laws and case law that make criticism of Israel harder than in other places. Post WW2 pro-Nazi and antisemetic speech was basically declared hate speech. Courts have taken a narrow view of what counts as antisemetic. There are in excess of six million reasons for that hard swing in the other direction.

So I would say the long version is this: you can criticize Israel but you need to pay close attention to how you say it. Criticizing the existence of the Jewish state is possible as well but you need to weigh your words even more carefully.

Moderators on an internet forum may take an even narrower approach to avoid any sort of legal trouble. And thus continues a chilling effect.

Freedom of speech is a tricky subject. Post WW2 the US had the influence to export their constitutional values, such as a first amendment, to Japan and West Germany. In both cases they punted. It's not without some irony when I say opinions on how to establish freedom of speech in a democratic constitution vary.

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lokalhorst 1 point 4 days ago

Quit your bullshit.

Fuck Israel. Israel is a fascist state that commits a suicide in Gaza. I am a German in Germany and I just critiziced Israel. I even used bad language. That is not illegal so don't spread lies if you don't know shit about the laws a country has.

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hauke 1 point 4 days ago

Regarding your "example': That's new to me, being a German. in this broad way the statement is wrong, i suppose. ChatGPT confirmed this. there is no law against denying the right of Israel to exist. It is only true that German politics has ever since Second World War felt a historical responsibility to support Israel against antisemitism.

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Pennywise -2 points 4 days ago

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onlinepersona 5 points 4 days ago

Openmic makes me think there will be audio.

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phil 0 points 4 days ago

There are development plans

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TragicNotCute 4 points 4 days ago

This post about a new Lemmy instance is on topic for this community. You can all have your own feelings about this instance and what it’s trying to do, but a single post here announcing it isn’t spam.

Please stop reporting this post and OP’s comments.

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eremophila 3 points 4 days ago

can I interest you in a spaceship to mars soon?

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Pennywise -1 points 4 days ago

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eremophila 1 point 4 days ago

I'm not going, but I believe musk has room for more passengers, op sounds like they may already have the armband and the moustache.

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hendrik 3 points 4 days ago

Yeah, it's a shame, "free-speech" gets abused by bad people and it can't be the scope for any platform. I could imagine it being used for other purposes as well. For example I always wanted to run a Piracy community that doesn't remove links or tutorials on how exactly we do it. But that probably also crosses the lines. ...Some other Robin Hood activity... I mean it could be used for good as well, depending on perspective.

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solrize 2 points 4 days ago

Sounds like you'll have an interesting time moderating trolls and their endless respawns. Shadowbanning has its troublesome aspects even conceptually, but it was invented for a reason.

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phil 1 point 4 days ago

Possibly. We will see.

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eremophila 1 point 4 days ago

shaddowbanning is pathetic and lazy.

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keiko 2 points 4 days ago

Why the blur?

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keiko 2 points 4 days ago

Well I was able to disable it. Though I'm still curious why there's such a weird blur effect to go along with an equally-weird adult-consent thing which requires javascript. Also worth noting that removing the blur doesn't allow clicking any links. Nevermind, I was able to get that to work. But each page load/reload requires this same attention. Still weird. I've never come across a lemmy instance that's gated in this way before. Most either have a blank page or captcha. And I'm still curious about why this one is configured like this.

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phil 2 points 4 days ago

I also took these comments to heart and made some updates to our sidebar. I appreciate anyone who wants to participate in good faith, I started this because Reddit shadow banned me simply for trying to advertise my business. They didn't even give me an opportunity to make things right, and it was a honest mistake. I think thats a really crappy thing to do to people. I don't want to participate in that.

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molestme247 0 points 4 days ago

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phil 0 points 4 days ago

What makes this content any better? What value have you added here?

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molestme247 1 point 4 days ago

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molestme247 1 point 4 days ago

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molestme247 1 point 4 days ago

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molestme247 1 point 4 days ago

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phil 0 points 4 days ago

Nobody us forcing you to comment or participate. I’m going to ask you to time it down and be civil or you will become my first moderation!

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scrubbles 2 points 4 days ago

Great, wish you the best, but if anything gets illegal is federated to mine that's where I have to defederate. One admin to another wish you luck though.

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Lumidaub 1 point 4 days ago

Caught in some loop, the content warning just keeps popping up when I click Continue. Or maybe my phone is trying to protect me.

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phil 1 point 4 days ago

I’ll have to take a look and see if I can figure out why that is and resolve it.

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phil 0 points 4 days ago

Haha careful on the “marketplacr of ideas” that moniker was claimed by Gettr. Ask me how I know.

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phil -1 points 4 days ago

Thank you! Don’t hesitate to reach out if I am missing anything, I definitely don’t want anything illegal happening. I am looking for more mods and admin a to help out as well! Appreciate the kind words!

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phil -1 points 3 days ago

Thank you.

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phil -1 points 4 days ago

Fair questions — you deserve a direct answer: No. A pro-Nazi community wouldn't be allowed here, and neither is racism, transphobia, or misogyny — "aimed broadly" or not. I in no way support hate.

"Free speech" here means something specific: we don't shadowban, we tell you exactly which rule you broke and give you a path to fix it, and we won't remove you for an unpopular opinion or a hard argument made in good faith. It does not mean a license to dehumanize people for who they are. Bigotry isn't brave dissent — it's harassment with a wider target, and it drives out the very people who make a place worth being in.

If drawing that line costs us the crowd who think "free speech" means "slurs welcome" — good. They were never the point. The mic's open to everyone; it's not a megaphone for hate. Be a good human. It isn't hard. You can debate your point with out dehumanizing others, when you can't, you've already lost the argument.

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artyom 10 points 4 days ago

“Free speech” here means something specific: we don’t shadowban

Shadowbanning has nothing to do with speech. I'd recommend you reconsider your verbiage.

we won’t remove you for an unpopular opinion

Most instances already don't do that. Which leads me to believe you have unpopular (hateful) opinions and want to create a community where those opinions are welcomed.

Be a good human. It isn’t hard.

No, and yet many people fail to. And these are the types who will be attracted to your community.

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eurodyne 6 points 4 days ago

You can debate your point with out dehumanizing others, when you can't, you've already lost the argument.

No. You can’t. And giving a “open mic“ to the Nick Fuenteses and Stephen Millers, and Charlie Kirks of the world who will put on a suit and a tie and try to “debate” you while dehumanizing others with nice sounding words gives them a platform to spread their hate while framing it as a “civilized debate“ rather than the coded bigotry that it is, while you cast aside any responsibility for letting them do it, tossing your hands up and claiming “free speech”.

It’s plainly and obviously bullshit. It’s like inviting a vampire into the house and then being surprised when everyone turns up dead.

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phil -4 points 4 days ago

If you say so...

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eurodyne 5 points 4 days ago

I'm clearly not the only one here who feels this way, and I'm sure that none of us are surprised that, right from the start, you're deflecting any responsibility for what you've created.

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Pennywise -2 points 4 days ago

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A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, Mbin, etc).

If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to !moderators@lemmy.world!

Rules

Posts must be on topic.
Be respectful of others.
Cite the sources used for graphs and other statistics.
Follow the general Lemmy.world rules.

Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration)

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