Ancient Historians v. Modern Historians

2 months ago by zarkanian to c/memes

MutantTailThing 173 points 2 months ago

Ye olde version of looking up a weird specific software problem and the guy answered his own post with just ‘nvm fixed it!’

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OwOarchist 83 points 2 months ago

(exactly the problem you're having)

[Deleted]

Thanks! Nothing else worked at all, but that solution worked perfectly!

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ILikeTraaaains 46 points 2 months ago

I had the same problem and this forum post solved it: (link to a website that no longer exists)

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p_consti 13 points 2 months ago

But that is at least solvable with the internet archive (most of the time)

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Karjalan 15 points 2 months ago

Too many damn times...

I was promised an immortal repository of knowledge in my youth. Now most of my bookmarks are dead links and finding answers is just like your example half the time.

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dalekcaan 3 points 2 months ago

"[Removed by moderator]"

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RickyRigatoni 36 points 2 months ago

"Read the wiki" but the part of the relevant wiki page for the subject was removed years ago and the edit history was purged after the server ran out of disk space.

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RememberTheApollo_ 17 points 2 months ago

Return to thread and complain that people are clueless and directing you to a useless resource. Mod locks thread and threatens you with a ban.

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zarkanian 34 points 2 months ago

Ugh, yes. I try to always remember to update with what I did to fix it. Although if I'm honest, what probably happens 95% of the time is I just forget about the post entirely.

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MutantTailThing 12 points 2 months ago

'Eh, I'll copy these writings later'

-Diotrophes of Miletus, probably.

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Robust_Mirror 4 points 2 months ago

Or you fix it through such a convoluted process of randomly trying things that you can barely articulate the solution yourself.

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lightnsfw 1 point 2 months ago

Recently had a issue where my network connection would just die on a VM I was running every couple hours. I spent days trying to troubleshoot that and never found an answer and eventually resigned myself to having to restart the whole thing every day or so. A while back I realized that it had just.... stopped doing that. No, idea what changed other than some updates that had been done, but I never found any reports of that issue anywhere that would indicate it was on someone's radar to fix.

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Hupf 9 points 2 months ago path: 0 25398587 25406681, hotness: undefined, score: 9, children: 0
Carl 90 points 2 months ago

This is why archeologists and anthropologists love boring people. Researching Alexander the Great is fine, but we already know the broad strokes. The actual useful “how people lived from day to day” information is almost always found in some boring person’s journal.

{Date} I walked down to the market to get more salt, flour, vinegar, and some wool thread to darn my socks. The morning walk took approximately 20 minutes with the sun at my back. The fish seller has increased his prices to {amount} due to the war. I saw an interesting flock of birds today during my walk back from the market, I believe they may be passing through the area. I decided to make my dinner bread with a slightly different recipe today. {Full recipe listed below}. It was nice, but I’ll probably only use half as much salt next time, like I normally do. The dairy cow has produced a lot of milk this year because of the heavy rain making the grass grow well. So I’ve had a lot of butter to put on my bread. The neighbor has agreed to trade some of my excess cream for fresh veggies. I’ll probably make them into a stew for tomorrow’s dinner {recipe listed below}.

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robear 37 points 2 months ago

If we actually had lots of surviving material like that it would be amazing.

Before the early modern period it was rare for people to write down boring or mundane shit because writing was hard and expensive.

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Natanox 10 points 2 months ago

Now writing is very easy, though I'm somewhat glad the whole bullshit going on on social media is rather easily lost as well. 🫠

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grrgyle 8 points 2 months ago

I keep a paper diary which I just assumed would rot away as a write-only set of documents, but then I think of all the digital work from 10+ years ago I've lost to plain bit rot, and I wonder if these chickenscratch braindumps on graphite and cheap recycled paper aren't the more durable medium.

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lightnsfw 4 points 2 months ago

I've thought about keeping a journal but I don't think having a copy of a lot of my thoughts laying around for someone to find is a good idea.

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BenevolentOne 3 points 2 months ago

People probably used a lot of slate+chalk or wax tablets for regular note-taking.

Similarly, archival grade paper and printing is STILL really expensive and folks STILL aren't doing that for their grocery lists and honey-dos. Not to mention that nearly all of our digital writings are extremely ephemeral. Wont somebody think about the future historians!!!!

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iocase 1 point 2 months ago

We've uncovered less than 1% of the Assyrian/Babylonian tablets that are thought to exist. Theres a lot of stuff out there that's well preserved thankfully even if we haven't uncovered it yet.

Whats cool is cuneiform could be written phonetically so a Babylonian scribe could write down any language even if they don't understand it. They apparently could also write at the speed a person speaks so they acted like stenographers in court or executive assistants for rich merchants or elites.

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hansolo 12 points 2 months ago

The Spectrum Through The Ages.

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Amir 10 points 2 months ago

"autism was invented by modern liberals to fake a diagnosis"

Journal from ancient mesopotamia:

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AlteredEgo 10 points 2 months ago

Wait, is this someone's actual ancient journal??? How incredibly exciting? And what was that slightly different recipe?

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cantstopthesignal 5 points 2 months ago

This mofo sold me shitty copper. Ea-Nasir, you're on my shitlist for eternity, you hear me!

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ILikeBoobies 1 point 2 months ago path: 0 25402926 25416501 25421150, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
treesapx 3 points 2 months ago

Highly suggest Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror for all of you who like this stuff. All her work is great.

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cloudshouter 1 point 2 months ago

And then you get someone like Thomas Thistlewood. Just an average slave owner.

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Diplomjodler3 82 points 2 months ago

It's sad to think that probably about 90% of writing from antiquity is lost. Then again, 100% of all history from before writing was invented is lost. And that's by far the largest part of human history.

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TranscendentalEmpire 102 points 2 months ago

100% of all history from before writing was invented is lost

Not entirely true. Some aboriginal oral traditions have accurately described the Budj Bim and Tower Hill Eruptions that happened 37k years ago, and the dramatic rise in sea levels 7-10k years ago.

The oral traditions of aboriginal tribes is kinda crazy. During the European colonization of australia there are times where you get to see encounters from written documents by Europeans and the history recalled by oral and dance traditions recorded by aboriginals. They tend to match in everything but perspective and often the aboriginal depictions are often more detailed.

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DarkSirrush 41 points 2 months ago

The local Aboriginals to me have oral stories about the most recent ice age.

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TranscendentalEmpire 37 points 2 months ago

Yeah, some of the stuff that has been able to be confirmed via geological studies is just insane. It's crazy to me how they aren't more widely known for disrupting the idea of prehistory.

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ChicoSuave 17 points 2 months ago

Blame the people who don't look like them but run the country. Anglo fragility won't give brown people have a chance.

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Jesus_666 3 points 2 months ago

I wouldn't say the idea of prehistory is disrupted per se. But we have to accept that it's region-dependent. In any given region (recorded) history started when the oldest still available account was preserved.

Some regions are far better at preserving very old accounts than others.

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captainlezbian 2 points 2 months ago

I assume the big one not the little one. It would be anticlimactic for it to be "you know it got quite a bit colder for a little while before you all showed up"

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DarkSirrush 3 points 2 months ago

I have been told they described the formation of glaciers, so definitely the big one.

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Malyca 2 points 2 months ago

If I had money I'd spend all my time learning from these people

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TwodogsFighting 1 point 2 months ago

Collision Course, or the spinoff, The Ice Age Adventures of Buck Wild?

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ol_capt_joe 8 points 2 months ago

What happened to the Celts' oral traditions? How are indigenous Australians' historical depictions still stayin' alive, stayin' alive?

(Is it because ignorant bozos like me are oblivious to them?)

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TranscendentalEmpire 14 points 2 months ago

While the aboriginals underwent and still endure settler colonialism it hasn't been as long or quite as thorough as the Roman occupation and then christianization that the celts went through. Australia is also so much bigger than the UK, so it would be hard to complete a very effective act of genocide against spiritual or tribal leaders as they did to the druids.

Even so some Celtic oral traditions were still going on strong up till the 19th century, often being little changed over thousands of years.

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Grail 4 points 2 months ago

Hey just a language note, Aboriginal is not a noun, we don't say "aboriginals". We say "Aboriginal people".

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DmMacniel 10 points 2 months ago

Well... The Romanisation of Europe happened.

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Zos_Kia 9 points 2 months ago

Which could be described as a genocide of Celtic people

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TwodogsFighting 5 points 2 months ago

Wiped out by Christinaity, for the most part.

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Malyca 5 points 2 months ago

That's actually amazing that information that old survived the telephone game

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TranscendentalEmpire 9 points 2 months ago

Well, cultures that heavily relied on oral traditions developed systems that prevented a telephone type scenario from happening. Aboriginals combine oral traditions with ceremony, song, dance, and different medias of physical art. They also had respected leaders whose whole position was telling the right stories during specific times, at specific places, and to specific people in the tribe.

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Malyca 3 points 2 months ago

Fascinating, these people are remarkable

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Grail 5 points 2 months ago

Aboriginal cultures have very advanced psychological technology which they use for the preservation of knowledge and the organisation of society. To white people, technology just means machines. But under a more holistic view, technology can be an idea that you use as a tool to do work. And Aboriginal cultures have very advanced mental tools. These tools have preserved knowledge for much longer than any book or clay tablet ever has, thanks to the expertise in psychology which was used to invent them.

Karl Marx referred to the economic organisation of cultures in Turtle Island and Australia as "primitive communism." But there's nothing primitive about it. Ask Me about Aboriginal farming.

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captainlezbian 3 points 2 months ago

And it's funny to call it primitive communism when the Iriqouian peoples were significantly more politically advanced than Europeans, especially when it came to fair distribution of power and resources.

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hansolo 15 points 2 months ago

Same for fossils. Heavily forested areas often had soil too acidic to create fossils at all. Fossils take some real luck and the right conditions to make. Otherwise, bones just slowly disintegrated. I've seen estimates that 90%+ of species that ever existed left no fossil evidence.

It's also why there's large gaps in the Human and Great Ape fossil records. Australopithecus fossils appear in Chad, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and South Africa... And no where in between. But is not like none of them existed in the lush jungles of central Africa. The soil dissolved the bones. Same with gorillas. There are no gorilla fossils.

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captainlezbian 3 points 2 months ago

We could fossilize a gorilla. We should fossilize a gorilla.

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hansolo 2 points 2 months ago

Quick, where's Harambe?

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captainlezbian 2 points 2 months ago

Probably still Cincinnati

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OwOarchist 11 points 2 months ago

And that’s by far the largest part of human history.

Eh... Depends how you measure the amount of 'history'.

If just going by length of time, yes. But if you also take into account how many people exist at that time (how much history is happening per unit of time), then there's an argument to be made that modern history is a much more significant portion, since our population sizes are so much larger than the relatively tiny populations in prehistory. The vast majority of people who have ever existed lived during the period of modern recorded history.

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Not_mikey 4 points 2 months ago

the vast majority of people who have ever existed lived during the period of modern recorded history

You sure about that, this says that 117 billion people of our species have ever lived. Writing is around 5,000 years old, and initially was used for accounting so history doesn't come around until later, whereas the species is 200,000 years old.

Idk what your classifying as the period of modern recorded history though. Maybe you could say that period started in the 2nd or 3rd millennium BC in the middle east, but that doesn't mean it started everywhere. At that time there were tons of people who lived without writing, and that continues on until very recently. So even after history was "invented" only a fraction of people lived under societies that practiced it until ~200 years ago.

I'm not going to do all the math but it seems to me a majority of people who ever lived, were not a part of societies that recorded history.

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frank 4 points 2 months ago path: 0 25398128 25399837 25401968 25402101, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
Danquebec 1 point 2 months ago
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Grail 5 points 2 months ago

Australia: 😂

Explanation: Australian oral histories have survived for tens of thousands of years, far longer than any European written histories. Australia has had the best historians in the world for longer than European civilisation has existed.

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explodicle 2 points 2 months ago

Which raises the question, is this just the percentage that's left?

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NigelFrobisher 4 points 2 months ago

What if some of the surviving neolithic monuments were shitposts?

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renormalizer 4 points 2 months ago

Judging by the amount of dicks drawn on walls in Pompeii, shitposting tradition spans millennia. I wouldn't discount it.

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cabbage 3 points 2 months ago path: 0 25398128 25403293 25406555 25407523, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
Funkt4st1c 3 points 2 months ago

I recall a story where a historian visited ireland and heard a song with what the people singing called gibberish, but the historian recognized as an ancient language.

Im unfortunately too lazy to look it up and link it

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Malyca 2 points 2 months ago

Lost and waiting to be found. Instead we spend money on wars 🤷

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hostileempathy 2 points 2 months ago

I often wonder how much was lost just in the Library of Alexandria. Start combining that one place, with countless wars, fires and natural disasters throughout time and it boggles my mind thinking about it.

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AlteredEgo 2 points 2 months ago

You never know. It might well be there are some ancient alien Bracewell probes out there that have been recording Earth's Funniest Caveman videos for millions of years.

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Z745812939054 27 points 2 months ago

Just wait until all the information that was born digital disappears without a physical copy in existence

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Remember_the_tooth 25 points 2 months ago

Someone's probably out there right now transferring PragerU videos to glass plates along with instructions for decoding them. We'll all be remembered as far-right nutjobs.

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OwOarchist 12 points 2 months ago

We’ll all be remembered as far-right nutjobs.

I certainly hope so.

I really hope that future society is leftist enough to view even today's "left" as being very conservative.

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captainlezbian 1 point 2 months ago

Yeah but I want me to be remembered by future generations as a far right nutjob, not the actual ones.

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rockSlayer 17 points 2 months ago

Better than the current practice in journalism where everything in every article is devoid of context

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BonsaiBoo 16 points 2 months ago

Good thing we sold all our media outlets to billionaires who either use them explicitly to promote fascism or just use the modern first to eyes slop written for profit fear porn and trash entertainment “reporting” you used to find exclusively in tabloids. Defunding public service journalistic outlets sure did fix things, huh?

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inari 4 points 2 months ago

This has always irked me, especially when I was young and tried to read articles on politics or the economy. NO context whatsoever.

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daniskarma 14 points 2 months ago

Future guys trying to loon up how something of current era works and they get hit with the old classic forum comment:

"Ask on our discord".

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Caesium 4 points 2 months ago

I hate every day that discord destroyed forums

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ILikeBoobies 3 points 2 months ago

You can replace future with current.

The worst I found was a git readme saying to just join their discord.

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Setiyeti93 10 points 2 months ago

This is precisely why all of my school essays painfully recounted every detail of any persons vaguely attached to the subjects entire life story. Including tangentially related anecdotes about what may or may not have been there favorite meals.

Not just to pad the word count, but to make sure that future generations would know about how Charles Dickens is experiences a child influenced his writing. On the off chance that every other reference was destroyed in the apocalypse and for some reason a paper copy of my essay magically survives said apocalypse.

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JcbAzPx 2 points 2 months ago

Let's be honest; it was mostly to pad the word count.

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OwOarchist 2 points 2 months ago

Bruh, the paper copy of your essay didn't even survive a day past when the teacher finished grading it.

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RePsyche 8 points 2 months ago

…and that wraps up the complete, and anotated discussion of the solution to the Foxworthy Conundrum.

I knew a guy who would start lecture recordings this way. It was hilarious at the time.

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dharmacurious 3 points 2 months ago

Help me out? Google foxworthy conundrum, only seeing the modern comedian. I'm assuming this isn't that lol

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Grail 4 points 2 months ago

I think it's a made up problem for exampling purposes.

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FluidBeef 7 points 2 months ago

Who’s the laughing guy with Ryan Reynolds?

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LodeMike 12 points 2 months ago

Gosling

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NigelFrobisher 9 points 2 months ago

Sorry, who’s the laughing guy with Chris Gosling?

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cepelinas 6 points 2 months ago

Ryan

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itsjustachairmary 4 points 2 months ago

The man or the small duck?

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cantstopthesignal 7 points 2 months ago

Here's Ada Palmer explaining why this happened on the Dwarkesh podcast. Also the reason they saved religious texts over everything else was because monks were in charge of copying over the scrolls.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eVqgRfRFsMc

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Tyrq 6 points 2 months ago

Monks were the og RAID array

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bhamlin 5 points 2 months ago

Religious Archive of Important Documents

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ol_capt_joe 4 points 2 months ago

I was fully expecting ≥2 people in the comments to share some relevant and interesting info about diotrophes of miletus...

Where are ü now that I need ya? 🥺

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raspberry_confetti 7 points 2 months ago

I think the OOP made them up, because there's a Diotrephes mentioned in the bible and nowhere else, and there's a Dionysius of Miletus, whose works are known. I think it's just a placeholder name for memetic value.

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DmMacniel 2 points 2 months ago

Were they roommates?

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SatansMaggotyCumFart 4 points 2 months ago

On a long enough timeline every modern historian becomes a ancient one.

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Carl 4 points 2 months ago

Something something “Ancient Egypt had archeologists who studied ancient(er) Egypt.”

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OwOarchist 1 point 2 months ago

Egyptians had scholars of ancient history and archeologists who studied ancient Egypt.

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 5 points 2 months ago

They still do, but they used to, too.

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Catoblepas 3 points 2 months ago

If this was a known text throughout history (not lost and rediscovered), does that mean there was at least one generation of educated people faking that they knew what these texts were before someone realized they were lost? 🤔

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