U.S. preparing to force Netherlands to ban ASML from selling to China
2 months ago by inari to c/technology
The article says ASML is dependent on US suppliers. Cutting off sales to the US would probably backfire.
ASML is also dependent on American suppliers for its own production. In the past, American threats to disrupt the company’s supply chain have successfully convinced the Dutch government to further restrict ASML’s exports.
I think it’s time for nations to take a hard look at their pipelines and realize how little places like the Netherlands have moved from their dark root in the slave trade. If it needs fascist governments, totalitarian states, or exploitative labor to produce, maybe don’t fucking make that thing.
Or just ignore history. Ya, that’s what they’ll do. Keep your Black Pete and ill-gotten wares. Jesus, do better.
I'm looking at my pipelines, what is it that I'm supposed to look for?
I have no idea what you mean by any of that? Who is black Pete? Is that a slavery reference? And who are you accusing? And what are you accusing them of.
Selling euv to China will let them reverse engineer it and put a state sponsored competitor on the market within 5 years.
Frankly if Europe really meant business they’d put a heavy export tariff on it, so the chip companies have to produce in Europe.
Nope, asml machines are of such complexity that no sane country/company would try to reverse engineer it.
But China isn’t driven by conventional economics nor honest trade. They want everyone else to become dependent on them as a way to get power and soft colonise others.
The newly developed dependence on US gas is a problem.
Why do you want them to sell to China so desperately? It has done nothing but irreversible damage to countries to sell key industries to China. Look at Germany‘s history of solar power and industry robots that China bought and now mass produces instead. Germany could‘ve been a key player in this if the industry and politics played their cards right.
I don't know what propaganda you are watching? Is it Fox News?
China is fucking 1.4 Billion people, they have invested heavily in infrastructure, education and research for 50 years, while we in Europe and USA have invested only about a third in those areas.
Of course they are catching up. Just like Japan did, Just like South Korea did. AND just like USA did stealing technology from Europe.
China is now among the world leaders in 8 out of 10 key industries. And very obviously, China is working on their own technology to replace ASML even harder now than they did a few years ago, exactly because USA has demanded we sanction the technology to slow them down on AI.
Well guess what. USA will lose the AI race to China so badly, that most probably ALL the big American AI companies will probably go bankrupt. Because they are driven by a gold rush craze, investing way more than the economy can justify. While in China they are pragmatically working towards using cheaper AI solutions to solve actual practical problems.
I want to trade with China because they are a WAY WAY more reliable trading partner than USA is.
Well I know what kind of propaganda a tanky like you is gobbling up if you paint an inhumane, totalitarian regime that knows no human rights like some kind of intellectual utopia. If they manage to „develop their own“ anyway we both know it will be done with industrial espionage and not innovation.
I am very far from being a tankie, I'm a strong supporter of democracy.
You must be very poorly informed to make that post, have you seen any travel descriptions to China lately?
I never claimed it's a Utopia, but the fact is that China has invested way way more in education infrastructure and research than the west for decades.
To claim China does not have innovation is decidedly moronic. China is now registering more patents than USA, and is the new global leader.
https://en.wikipedia.org/...
A large portion of this business was American, just in case you didn't know.
This is like how Americans think they're from other places. I'm Italian! Declares a fifth generation American who speaks no Italian and has never left New Jersey
It's time for Europe to decide if we want to be a US puppet state or independent.
Fair, but shouldn't the Netherlands or EU decide that, not the United States?
You can't do that. There is a reason only one company in the entire world can do it. It's because it's really hard to do and it is an iterative technology.
That reason is nobody has ever dumped a shitload of cash into it because it was cheaper to just buy from the company that already figured it out.
So your logic is "Give China everything they ask otherwise they will make their own and outcompete you"?
You know, that sounds awfully close to what Russians constantly say, but replace make with take
They've already tried that - they bought one, pulled it apart to see how it worked and couldn't put it together again. There's a Veritasium video about it.
As an European, I very much prefer that we apply to those who support Israel the same standards we do for those who support Russia.
So I'm absolutelly fine that we do not give BOTH Israel's and Russia's allies important technology.
Doing otherwise would show our "European values" to in practice be nothing more than sociopathic hypocrisy.
Of course, then ASML wouldn't be able to sell its machines to America and at least half of Europe as well as quite number of other countries.
We should apply the same punishment to countries that directly threaten and invade Europe versus countries that aren't even close to Europe and are no threat? Do you want EU to become the next world police like US and get involved into all global conflicts? Maybe we should learn a thing or two from US and stay the fuck away from middle east.
Ah, I see, you're driven by "what's in it for me", not by principles.
Well, by that logic, I as an EU citizen shouldn't give a shit, since Russia hasn't attacked the EU (at most they should get a proportional talkie-talkie response when they engage in talkie-talkie "aggression") and meanwhile it's more profitable for the EU to engage with China than it is to cut them of, and as for the rest of Europe (most notably Ukraine), well screw them same as the "screw Palestinians" of your position.
Even better, as a Portuguese and thus as far from Russia as possible whilst still being in Europe, by your "self interest" motivation I shouldn't give a shit about Russia even if they invaded Eastern European EU countries.
Of course, me being a person of principles, I support Palestine against the Israeli Genocide same as I support Ukraine against Russia aggression (no need to feel personally endangered by either aggressor) and what I think the EU should do in the international plane follows from that, but that's not at all your reason to wanting that Europe behaves towards China in a certain way.
China is not a Russian ally though. China is an opportunistic state. They make agreements and trade with anyone who they think will further their goals. Thus they trade with Russia because by doing so they gain influence in a diminishing state that controls a lot of resources (Russia's far east is increasingly becoming Chinese by population and companies for a reason)
China doesn't make friends, they make deals with anyone and everyone as long as they think it is positive for China.
I thought he was talking about the US😂
Europeans: We are not vassal states.
Also Europeans:
At this stage, it's chosing between the old global power that you know will die soon but is still strong enough to hurt you, the most likely new global power that's rising fast, or putting in enough me money, effort and discomfort into becoming an independent power and explain that to a population that likes to vote for more purchasing power and pensions, not less.
Even if I agreed that such export controls were of significant strategic importance, I don't think it's worth applying extreme pressure to our allies to accomplish it. The notion that China can't innovate becomes less true by the year.
The AI build out is an engineering disaster. China will catch up irrespective of what controls we apply to inhibit them. If we can't out-compete them, then we lose.
It would probably be much easier to out-compete them if we weren't actively destroying the greatest network of alliances in human history. We're fucking morons.
I always see comments under posts like these with people proclaiming that ASML/europe should just ignore these demands or asking why the US could even make these in the first place but most people just hear about the companies/machines and don't really understand the situation.
First ASML did not really become the sole provider of high end lithography because they were the absolute best or anything its just that they were the last one standing after decades of mergers and acquisitions consolidated the industry to just a single company. So even though they are incorporated in the netherlands and build the machines and do a lot of their work there they rely on lots of engineering work from around the world and very heavily from inside the US from companies that were merged into them.
More important than that though ASML is mostly an engineering/manufacturing company but before it gets to the point of designing and building these machines it requires years to decades of scientific research and the vast majority of that research is done in the US. In some cases it is US corporations like IBM and universities who do a lot of this but also the US government funds/performs a lot of this as well. So many of the early EUV patents are actually owned by the US government and licensed to ASML so going against the wishes of the US govt could risk being cut off from those patents. Even if you think they should just ignore the patents and build them anyway that would still cut them off from future research.
From the perspective of ASML even if they don't like this they really don't have a lot of choice but to do it and it probably does not have a huge short term effect on them financially anyway since they are already booked up for years in advance so they really only miss out on things like service contracts.
Great context. Though you should probably change all that talk of the US funding research to the past tense, or the in-freefall-collapse-as-budgets-are-slashed-and-political-goons-replace-science-advisors tense, which is rarely used but the current situation fits.
Yeah unfortunately a lot of this research was performed or funded by the dept of energy which currently doesn't exist anymore. Luckily though since these types of patents generate a good amount of money I haven't really seen as much a of significant scale back in it from universities like some other fields, at least from people I know who do this sort of work. They are mostly keeping all the people doing it on and just scaling back on new equipment and buildings and things like that. Talking with people they are mostly just biding their time until the next election as most of this was done as executive orders so it can be undone the same way even if it takes years to rebuild. It does just suck that one of the two major political parties decided to make anti-intelligence and anti-science their main personality though it remains to be seen whether it stays that way once their dear leader is gone from power and given his health hopefully gone from the living world.
Yes, biding time and running a pincher strategy of sending out some people to kiss the ring and sending significantly more to the watch groups, industry partners, and courts. Though we've also lost as many people to foreign institutions in the last two years as in the previous twenty.
The GOP courted the anti-intellectual vote because their ideology no longer had popular support. It was a deal with the devil and now the devil has come to collect. It's unlikely they can wind back that deal. The only hope is that more voters wake up and start to understand the impacts of putting morons in charge.
Last I checked the Netherlands weren't part of the U.S.
Some company in China just duplicated ASMLs shtick, didn’t they ?
Like the headstart Germany had in solar, high speed rail, and automotive?
This feels again a bit dismissive. My whole life I have heard "it is okay, China is years away from doing any catch up, unlikely anything happens" and then China proceeds to catch up every. Single. Time.
if China has replicated the technology, then that is fucked for ASML and any headstart they have will not feel like one in 5 years when suddenly China speeds past with cheaper and better tech.
I hope ASML won't just sit idle and will instead double the effort into making sure the lead they have stays that way.
most recent one I can remember was "Chinese cars are years away from quality and safe cars of western countries who have a massive headstart" recently also been hearing that about memory production.
I think you're equally dismissive of the extreme complexity of these machines.
It's built upon an enormously complicated and precise arrangement of processes and infrastructure that took them decades to iterate towards. Even if you knew a shortcut to the answer and had infinite resources to throw at it, sorting out all the kinks is a monumental effort that can't be fixed within a few years by throwing more heads and hands at it.
I can't overstate how complex these machines are. They are arguably one of the most advanced things mankind has ever built.
I get that, nobody should get complacent. I'm from Eindhoven and I know many people at ASML. They are not complacent. They knew this day would come. They're racing for the next big thing even after EUV, of course they are, but nothing lasts forever. The head start is real, China can make a couple of these machines where ASML builds 60 per year. And these machines don't have anywhere near the chip production capacity of ASML's
Picture is more complicated as far as I understand.
China caught up to ASML. Not fully. Huawei even proceeded to propose innovation with vertical stacking and overall different chip designs.
Fine and dandy.
Machines ASML sell now took a fuck ton of time to even get to demo state.
Where this gets complicated, ASML is years into developing new generation machines, that will further chip design and production. In different materials than silicone.
And whether China will or can catch up to this is another question. Whether ASML delivers, is another one.
This is space race, but they are racing to different planets. All at the same time.
Painting this as A catching up to B appears extrimely simplistic.
Maybe also release the tuning and tricks after? They are socialistic...
If so, maybe asml should team up with China to produce these machines. Completely cut out the hypocrites in the US out of the picture.
I thought so …
"NU.nl noted that, under the Match Act, American companies would still be allowed to sell their most advanced chip etching machines to Chinese customers. China has discovered that, using these etching techniques and DUV machines, they could produce chips that typically require an EUV machine."
Rules for thee, but not for me. Nobody likes a bully, decoupling from the USA becomes ever more inevitable.
If they can’t buy it, they will steal the IP and sell it cheaper since they don’t have to repay R&D anymore.
Seriously, my country is fucking stupid.
@lemmy.world
go to feed...
@lemmy.world
go to feed...
Maybe EU should ban ASML from selling to USA?
And make a law specifically to allow ASML to sell to China.
Unfortunately many politicians in Europe are doing as USA ask. But the reality is that USA depend more on EU than the other way around. So we should not let USA decide anything, at a minimum they should consult EU first! Brats.
Half the US soft power comes from EU and allies supporting USA. Without us, USA would never have become the global leader they have been for 7 decades.
We allowed that because USA helped us in WW2, and it worked pretty well for half a century.
But unfortunately USA has torn up all agreements and are walking away from their responsibilities, and work against their allies.
We don't owe USA anything anymore, maybe Americans should wake up and realize that.
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