So Reddit has decided that plain HTML is unsafe

2 months ago by lemmydividebyzero to c/technology

grue 260 points 2 months ago

The entire fucking point of the Web was to make information as easily-accessible as possible, structured and semantically tagged, and consumable by humans and further machine transformation alike. "Scraping" is facilitated by design!

Using Javascript to deliberately break that is evil and every programmer who participates it is a piece of shit. No exceptions.

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artyom 71 points 2 months ago

That's true but they probably didn't account for AI data scrapers ramfucking your server so they could steal all the value you assembled for general consumption and serve it themselves for profit.

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grue 71 points 2 months ago

The scraping wouldn't be a problem if Reddit simply provided an RSS feed or other data-efficient API. The "ramfucking" is caused by the attempt to block bots; it is entirely self-inflicted.

Remember, it's all our content to begin with and Reddit does not have any right to try to lock it up for itself.


That doesn't mean I like all the AI bullshit going on, BTW. But the problem is the generation of the slop, not the data accessibility.

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artyom 48 points 2 months ago

The scraping wouldn't be a problem if Reddit simply provided an RSS feed or other data-efficient API

That's simply not true. These bots are essentially DDOSing the entire internet, API or not.

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grue 20 points 2 months ago

Okay, if efficient APIs existed and they weren't incompetently failing to use them, it wouldn't be a problem. Happy now?

(I should've addressed that in my previous comment, as I was aware of how one of the Lemmy instances was taken down by scrapers the other day despite the fact that they could easily get all the content simply by consuming ActivityPub directly. But I was naively hoping it wouldn't be necessary because, as you can see from this text, it would've cluttered up my writing with double the words.)

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missingno 37 points 2 months ago

Well they had an API, but...

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BlueEther 19 points 2 months ago

so why was I getting hit with over 1,400,000 request a day to the web URI and not the API by some bot farm in China the other week. They were also hitting other lemmy instances.

I blocked the fuckers, no qualms at all.

Even if they were using the API they were not being nice about their shit.

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LaggyKar 11 points 2 months ago

Reddit does have RSS feeds

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Toga77 8 points 2 months ago

But we all know AI companies are unethically scraping and selling shit back to us right? I just really need people to acknowledge that.

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grue 0 points 2 months ago

It is the "selling shit back to us" specifically, not the "scraping," that's the unethical part. If the AI companies were doing the same scraping (and destructive rare book scanning, for that matter), but were using the data to populate archive.org, would it still be a problem? I would argue "no."

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rudyharrelson 3 points 2 months ago

The scraping wouldn’t be a problem if Reddit simply provided an RSS feed or other data-efficient API

Reddit does provide RSS feeds, e.g.: https://www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgehog/.rss

Frankly, I'm surprised they still offer RSS feeds. They've been slowly but surely killing off all ways of accessing their content for years. One day they'll disable them, but for now they still work.

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Fizz 1 point 2 months ago
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PurpleFanatic 17 points 2 months ago

Its amazing to me how consistently the shitty behaviours of these billionaire techbro oligarchs impact disabled or marginalised people... even when the point isnt to directly shit on them. Its fucking vile.

I honestly think many (too many, but certainly not all! I am one) programmers are some of the immoral, ethically spurious people around in the 21st century.

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voytrekk 7 points 2 months ago

That is why they want AI to replace programmers. AI morals are programmed, so they can be designed to do shitty things that a normal person would refuse.

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MalReynolds 4 points 2 months ago

Hmffh, anti-copyright. After all, every view is a copy to your machine. Just information being free.

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SlurpingPus 1 point 2 months ago

Semantic web was a separate initiative by Tim Berners-Lee when the web already used un-semantic HTML. And it never went anywhere.

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PurpleFanatic 44 points 2 months ago

It's shitty moves like this that have me feeling deeply grateful about the fediverse. It's NOT without its myriad of problems, but how lucky are we? We're insulated from all this bullshit.

Mastodon is every bit as good (and better) as it was when I started using it in 2018. Can the same be said for Reddit, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube? Absolutely the fuck not.

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Gsus4 9 points 2 months ago

I'll admit I'm having trouble moving from yt to peertube :/ and still use the old gmail accounts

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rumba 10 points 2 months ago

PT, nebula, loops, odysee, and floatplane together can't fill the yt content gap.

You can start with moving to newpipe/grayjay and curate your own content which will lower your surface area.

At some point YT will manage to widevine and we'll be torrenting the best of that shit.

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Truscape 5 points 2 months ago

Ahead of the curve, already downloaded all of the greats onto my selfhosted storage.

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Truscape 3 points 2 months ago

You can use something like GrayJay to watch YT and other sources (and have offline playlists and subscriptions) without a google account whatsoever. That helped me make the jump to fully degoogle.

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MrScottyTay 3 points 2 months ago

The lack of a "cross-platform" (for lack of a better term) account is why I don't use things like GrayJay because I watch on different devices and want to ensure they all have similar recommendations and a watch history.

I use SmartTube next on tv like 80% of the time I watch YouTube.

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Truscape 3 points 2 months ago

Grayjay allows you to sync between devices if desired, including platforms. I have a desktop, laptop, and a phone, and I can sync everything locally by just pairing the devices and having them at least 2 active for the transfer.

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rumba 2 points 2 months ago

Recommendations are their method of control. Eshew the algorithm, curate your own choices of who you watch. also drastically reduces your exposure to slop.

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mildseason 3 points 2 months ago

Yeah that's the killer. Just not enough content yet. I think it's cause video hosting is expensive. My hope is that individual youtubers start hosting their own peertube instances. But they'd never do that because they'd lose money.

If peertube could get functionality which would allow creators to hide videos behind a subcription which could be paid in fiat/crypto that would be a game changer. Easy to donate to your favourite creators while keeping federation.

Maybe one day.

Defo would recommend changing your email though. Takes a while to do all your accounts but once it's done you're free! Feels good.

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ryper 3 points 2 months ago

Defo would recommend changing your email though. Takes a while to do all your accounts but once it’s done you’re free! Feels good.

And if you move to provider that will let you use your own domain, you won't need to update your accounts next time you switch.

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MonkderVierte 42 points 2 months ago

This is because appending site: reddit.com to a search query is basically a surefire way to find results written by genuine humans.

The article is from 2026, not 2016? That bot-ridden Reddit? Am i in the wrong film?

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nibbs 10 points 2 months ago

Meanwhile, I use -site:reddit.com more and more.
We are not the same. ;)

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MonkderVierte 1 point 2 months ago

I use Google hit hider by Domain userscript (also works on most major search engines), which also let's you remove AI barf sites.

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Jason2357 9 points 2 months ago

100% bot ridden. However site:reddit.com is used for the types of questions where otherwise, you just get page after page of SEO sites, which are even wose.

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limer 7 points 2 months ago

wrong film

Second reality on your left, past the one where Santa Clause rules the world

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Einskjaldi 5 points 2 months ago

Hey, those are real human made bots. Not shitty ai generated bots.

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ILikeBoobies 3 points 2 months ago

Or that site:url doesn't return results it used too anymore.

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carpelbridgesyndrome 36 points 2 months ago

If you consider scraping a threat then yes plain HTML might as well be giving up. The advantage of new reddit for that is quite clear: they can collect a bunch of data about your browser before deciding if you are a bot and if the rest of the page should load. The embedded recaptcha call in the screenshots is a pretty good hint. I suspect blocking trackers on new reddit will break as soon as the scrapers move over.

As for why they don't just kill old reddit: a significant chunk of their active posters use it and are attached to it. So if they kill it entirely they will lose content. Posters are of course logged in so this change is less likely to affect them.

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heartSagan5 8 points 2 months ago

if you are a bot

Or they’re bouncing banned people.

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PattyMcB 34 points 2 months ago

Reddit seems to be in the business of extracting as much value as it can from said forums without completely destroying them.

I call bs. It's been completely destroyed for a while.

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JackbyDev 13 points 2 months ago

I think they're more upset AI companies scraped 'em and they didn't get paid.

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PattyMcB 1 point 2 months ago

They told Google to pound sand and their stock took a hit. Fuck em

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SlurpingPus 0 points 2 months ago

You mean Reddit told Google? They actually have an agreement with Google where the latter get a direct feed of new posts and comments, and index them pretty much immediately. So not sure where you got the ‘told Google to pound sand’ idea.

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PattyMcB 0 points 2 months ago path: 0 25561902 25562711 25567988 25587420 25589475, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
fodor 4 points 2 months ago

I agree with you. But what's important is if they can sell anything. They destroyed their own product but they're still pretending it has value, and maybe they can fool some investors into paying for script and AI slop.

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TheObviousSolution 3 points 2 months ago

They are in the business of attracting new users into their new algorithmic engagement hellhole now. Show any propensity of interest, and you will get sidetracked to the most godawful side-communities that seem to have emerged to engage as many victims as possible. They do not want to focus on their old users as anything less than the content they already made that makes reddit show up as free advertisement to their new base in search engines. It's all a game of "it's the algorithm's fault so you can't blame us" now.

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rumba 1 point 2 months ago

While I agree, More celebs than ever have been asking for comments and ideas on their reddit pages.

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MedicPigBabySaver 31 points 2 months ago

Fuck Reddit and Fuck Spez.

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clanker_victim_555 31 points 2 months ago

even logged in I can't access old reddit anymore.

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GottaHaveFaith 14 points 2 months ago

if you use the reddit enhanced suite extension you can get redirected

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clanker_victim_555 8 points 2 months ago

If I wasn't permabanned I might bother trying work arounds.

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Shdwdrgn 3 points 2 months ago

I just checked my old.reddit login on the desktop... still working just fine today. I don't think you need work-arounds, you just need to access it without any work-arounds.

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clanker_victim_555 2 points 2 months ago

You think that if I do the thing that's not working that it will somehow work.

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HuudaHarkiten 11 points 2 months ago
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clanker_victim_555 2 points 2 months ago

Thanks. That was too easy not to do.

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acosmichippo 3 points 2 months ago

working for me

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lechekaflan 29 points 2 months ago

Fuck you spez.

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dhork 20 points 2 months ago

How dare you question King Steven the Turd, Greediest of Pigboys? If he proclaims HTML to be unsafe, it must be so. That's a King's job, to tell the Landed Gentry how to behave....

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db2 12 points 2 months ago

I'm not forgetting or forgiving that shit either.

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HAL_9_TRILLION 18 points 2 months ago

I now browse Wikipedia. Please don’t screw me over Wikipedia, I donated five bucks to one of your nags once.

For anyone who doesn't know, you can download Wikipedia and host it yourself! I got the top 50k version (~7G) on my RPI3 and now no matter what fuckery they pull or the government pulls, I've got a pretty decent source of general information.

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jjlinux 6 points 2 months ago

Could you share what you did to achieve this? I've been planning on doing just that, and have it auto-update every week or so (keeping the previous versions archived, of course) by using kiwix-serve for a static '.zim' file and maybe a cron job for the auto-update. But if you have a better solution, I'd love to know. The deployment I am planning is kind of convoluted to be honest.

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HAL_9_TRILLION 9 points 2 months ago

No, that's exactly what I did, I'm running kiwix-serve, but I'm not going to bother updating it because I'm really worried about information degrading now that fascists are basically calling the shots on everything (and WP's jackboot co-founder has a hard on for it). If I feel enough time has gone by to warrant an update I'll just do it manually.

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Truscape 2 points 2 months ago

What year was your cutoff?

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HAL_9_TRILLION 2 points 2 months ago

About 6 months ago.

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Zedd_Prophecy 2 points 2 months ago

I am currently pretty tapped out on all storage and backup drives but if I had space this post would have motivated me. Just sayin

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MangoCats 2 points 2 months ago

Yeah, I did that about 20 months ago (wonder why?) and the problem is, there it sits but I forget where on my LAN I stored it, how to access it - I suppose, were I absolutely desperate, I could launch a several hours research project and find it, maybe even figure out how to access (I believe I stored README with it about how to do all that), but... why? And, even worse, one why? might be to see how articles have drifted over time, which I guarantee they have and continue to do, Wikipedia is actually quite fluid, but does knowing how current articles compare to the ones you archived in 2024 do anything of greater value for you than the negative value of being pissed off at how the world is lying to itself (same as it ever has...)?

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HAL_9_TRILLION 3 points 2 months ago

I have my Pi-Hole doing DNS for me so I just set up an easy to remember redirect, wikipedia.local. I did it more for independence. I got Home Assistant and Voice PE so I could have a local smart speaker to get big tech out of my house. I don't do anything on the cloud, so it stands to reason that if I want to make sure I always have access to rudimentary information, having my own version of WP is nice. I also just think it's kind of cool and it never begs me for money.

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MangoCats 2 points 2 months ago

It's definitely cool - just not one of my top 100 cool projects on the list so after having made it work for 5 minutes I got the old ADHD onset and haven't looked back at it for a couple of years.

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MrOtingocni 2 points 2 months ago

How do you do that?

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HAL_9_TRILLION 4 points 2 months ago

You run a server on a machine inside your house, it can be any computer on your local LAN/wifi, but it's obviously best if it's a machine that's always on. I use a Raspberry Pi 3B+ (these can be had for about $50) that I have plugged into my wifi router and it's running a little program called Kiwix-Server (free and open source). You download the WP file (it's a huge single file with a .zim extension) and point the server to it and boom.

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MrOtingocni 2 points 2 months ago

Wow, neat! Thanks for the explanation

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Bruncvik 17 points 2 months ago

Yesterday, I visited new Reddit. No VPN, Chrome in incognito mode, so no extensions, clickedon a link directly from Google search. Got a message that my access was blocked for security reasons. Copied the link to Firefox (with uBO and a few privacy-centric extensions), changed it to old reddit (where I was already logged in), and it worked just fine. I found out that when Reddit kills old reddit, I won't even have the choice to switch to the new one (not that I ever would) because I'd be blocked anyway.

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gandalfthewhite 7 points 2 months ago

It works through Tor, by the way. I had the same experience can't look at it but I can through Tor. They even have a .onion.

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Lutra 1 point 2 months ago

seems like Old reddit is account-walled as of today maybe

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DeadSquirrel 16 points 2 months ago
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MonkderVierte 4 points 2 months ago

tag users […] it's super weird seeing people from one country pretending to be from another one.

I see issues.

Implementation A: automatic by IP)

  • they moved
  • they use a VPN

Implementation B: field in profile settings)

  • can write whatever the fuck they want
  • can probably change it
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DeadSquirrel 8 points 2 months ago
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MonkderVierte 4 points 2 months ago

Ahh, so jt's you doing the tagging of others, only visible to you.

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DeadSquirrel 4 points 2 months ago
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chunes 16 points 2 months ago

I don't even understand how there are still so many comments on that site. How is anyone even accessing it anymore? I just assume it's 100% bots

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ryper 11 points 2 months ago

The site is most hostile to visitors who aren't logged in, and the users who comment probably mainly visit the site while logged in.

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Squizzy 1 point 2 months ago

Nah I have been banned loads for insanely minor stuff. I got a sitewide ban having appealed a ban for some star trek opinion I cant remember.

My account was eight years old with a decrnt history and contributions. They give mods too luch sway because mods are losers doing work for free.

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isVeryLoud 1 point 2 months ago

Inertia, just like Facebook.

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redditStinksSuperBad 15 points 2 months ago

reddit stinks super bad

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Gsus4 8 points 2 months ago

a corpse of a platform

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TheObviousSolution 13 points 2 months ago

They've already disabled old.reddit for me. That makes it unusable, and thank you, Reddit. I actually used a domain blocker to block reddit, but generally would still be tempted to peek. Now, that is no longer the case. I, for one, am wholly in support of Reddit's new anti-advertising stance!

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turdburglar 12 points 2 months ago

funny, that comes just on the heels of my deciding that reddit is unsafe.

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PattyMcB 2 points 2 months ago

You're just now realizing it?

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turdburglar 3 points 2 months ago

not really but it make for good joke pacing.

i’ve been here for a while. and not there for a while.

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gandalf_der_13te 11 points 2 months ago

"reddit has made a bad decision" is not news. it's entirely what is expectable of them.

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Katana314 11 points 2 months ago

I haven't maintained my personal website in ages. That, of course, means it loads instantaneously, in comparison to all these Library of Congress websites.

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superglue 10 points 2 months ago

I get blocked and asked to login to reddit no matter if it's old or new. safereddit still works though so I'm using that for now.

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Jaysyn 8 points 2 months ago

Quit using reddit. I don't give a shit what your excuse is, you're propping up fascism.

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OldChicoAle 1 point 2 months ago

My cousins say they cannot find any discourse communities for their hobbies outside Reddit. I would respect the decision more if they only stuck to those subreddits but they don't.

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Jaysyn 0 points 2 months ago

Again, I don't fucking care about your excuses.

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LodeMike -1 points a month ago

Skill issue

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Steve 8 points 2 months ago

Whats reddit?

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Gsus4 1 point 2 months ago

typo, it's spelled "read it!"

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Dudewitbow 7 points 2 months ago

afaik supposedly it was because a large chunk of the bot network went through the old.reddit portal over the standard reddit portal.

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voluble 18 points 2 months ago

That's just an excuse by reddit. Moving to the new style allows them to choke down and control the way that posts and replies are displayed and nested. This is good for them, because it allows them to offer white glove PR services to paying customers. It also obfuscates useful user supplied content so that it can be sold wholesale to anyone who has the money to buy it. That's more important to them than offering a good user experience and useful website to the proles.

Anyone still posting on reddit (who isn't a bot) is working for free for an unscrupulous company.

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Initech_vs_Initrode 1 point 2 months ago

Anyone still posting on reddit (who isn't a bot) is working for free for an unscrupulous company.

Reddit was founded during the "crowdsourcing" craze. People realized that they could launch websites where all the content was created by the users, and it would snowball into daily views.

My point is that posting and commenting on Reddit has always been doing free work for an unscrupulous company. You could argue that it wasn't unscrupulous before it went public, but even that is debatable.

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db2 1 point 2 months ago

Only because the bots were already set up to do it that way. It's quicker to use what exists when it works.

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bedwyr 5 points 2 months ago

I am so glad I'm off reddit. Even though I could use their help on a great number of subjects. Neverheless, because Isreal I can't use reddit apparently. Not permabanned yet but they are on my shit with fake violations like right away now. I abandon them after a 2nd violation, go through one every 3 to 6 months when using it.

Every single company that goes public gets worse, reddit will be no exception. Those craven amoral cockscum are not to be trusted, nor patronized with our words they can use for their own benefit.

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gergolippai 4 points 2 months ago

this is like when in a community i am looked at as a criminal because i don't drink alcohol.

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SCmSTR 3 points 2 months ago

Wait. How does that work? Wouldn't plain html be safer because it's JUST html?? Or are there vulnerabilities in just html that I'm not aware of?

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nibbs 7 points 2 months ago

It's unsafe for their profits.

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FG_3479 3 points 2 months ago

They could use a WAF to block AI scrapers, and both Cap and Shieldstral together to block most AI posters but they won't bother.

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Jyek 2 points 2 months ago

SMHTML

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tal 2 points 2 months ago

Whether or not it requires a login for old.reddit.com depends on client IP. I see this on a few networks, not on others.

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Treczoks 2 points 2 months ago

Apart from all that, what would prevent an AI knowledge thieving tool from using an actual account on Reddit?

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lemmydividebyzero 2 points 2 months ago

One would need more than 1 account...

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Treczoks 1 point 2 months ago

As if that would stop an AI agent.

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