yakko 163 points 22 days ago

> fascism appeals to the stupidest, most brutish, hierarchy-oriented people in society
> Give young teens a taste

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Gladaed 21 points 22 days ago

Wow, that does not wrap in thunder.

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BreakerSwitch 6 points 22 days ago

Hooray Voyager

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Gladaed 11 points 22 days ago

Nevermind code block aren't supposed to wrap you can scroll them by swiping. I am the idiot.

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Fmstrat 4 points 21 days ago

Uhh, why is Voyager wrapping code blocks?

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UninterestingVoid 1 point 21 days ago

summit wraps it too

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ImgurRefugee114 5 points 22 days ago

I'm more disturbed by the fact that it does wrap in Voyager.... Ew.

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yakko 4 points 22 days ago

Not in boost either. Alas

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Gladaed 7 points 22 days ago

Nevermind code block aren't supposed to wrap you can scroll them by swiping. I am the idiot.

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Mantzy81 109 points 22 days ago

The problem is that it didn't carry on further. The beginnings of most ideologies sound fine but it's the reality and the shunning of "the other" where you start to see the horrors.

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Jiggle_Physics 40 points 22 days ago

Yeah, the whole thing is that most of this sounds good until you have to be part of it as it plays out. It just gets worse, and worse, and the people become more, and more, polarized about the situation. The problems with the ideas, which should have been obvious from the beginning, start to take effect in ways that finally start to hurt the people it was proposed to support. Then the system goes into collapse.

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Mirshe 18 points 21 days ago

See, and even this could lead into a fantastic lesson about how fascism is really seductive in these vague terms, especially to help clean up a lot of the questions of "well why didn't people fight back" that teens have when learning about Italy and Germany pre-WWII.

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TubularTittyFrog 9 points 21 days ago

hindsight is easy.

i can look back on every thing that happened to me in the past and it's clear what was wrong. but when you are living through it, you can't see that. it was not obvious and clear, it was confusing and I did the best that I could with the limited information I had, nobody is omniscient. but when we look back on the past it seems 'so obvious' because we have... way more information and experience and context than when have in the moment, especially the time to take all that info and process it.

and it's stupidly arrogant to assume some average person of limited means and intelligence could see how 'evil' things around them were. only a minority of the population is looking at some big picture of what their government is doing, most folks just care about food on their table and are totally consumed by day to day life.

admitting we are limited beings that make mistakes or just are totally blind to horrible things... is painful and scary.

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baines 0 points 21 days ago

it’s obvious some people just have 0 empathy

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TubularTittyFrog 1 point 20 days ago

which people?

most people use 'empathy' as a word to bully other people and feel superior about themselves. and believe empathy is only given to select groups who have 'victim' status. so you are not allowed to empathize with germans or members of the nazi party, only the victims of the nazi state.

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TubularTittyFrog 14 points 22 days ago

people are more than happy to commit horrors on others.

that's the whole point, you want a well-defined group to be able to blame, torture, and kill. because this groups existence is the 'problem' that is holding back your ideal society from existing.

and every ideology has this. they all need an amorphous boogeyman and as a label to condemn their non-believers.

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HerbGrower 1 point 21 days ago

And what happens when you have wiped out that group? Are there other similar examples to look at that didn't get stamped out so quickly and were able to collapse internally instead

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Eq0 3 points 21 days ago

Jews have been the scapegoat since for ever, when stuff didn’t go right pogroms happened. In the case of Nazi Germany, the discrimination lasted long enough to show that the scapegoat keeps being used, even when the minorities have been wiped out. So much of the defeats were blamed on vague and unknown inner enemies, aided by or aiding the Jews, even when there was no supporting evidence for this.

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ryathal 93 points 22 days ago

It's easier to think of Nazis as just evil and incompetent. The uncomfortable truth is that a significant part of their platform was popular, especially in the beginning of their rule. They were also extremely competent early on, it wasn't until Hitler was in full on drug psychosis that things started going down hill. Expecting something the Nazis did, especially early on to be unpopular and a massive red flag is just foolish on the teacher.

It would be better if we focused more on the uncomfortable parts of Nazi Germany. Their militarization efforts pulled them out of global recession faster than everyone else. Jewish segregation was inspired by the US treatment of African Americans. Jesse Owens was treated better in Nazi Germany than in the US despite being a national hero. The eugenics movement was also massively popular in the US and elsewhere. There was a lot of luck involved in the war in Europe going as well as it did, Germany winning wasn't ever really realistic unless the US aided them, but things could have been much worse.

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rumschlumpel 54 points 21 days ago

They were also extremely competent early on, it wasn’t until Hitler was in full on drug psychosis that things started going down hill.

In a lot of ways, it's not that they were competent, it's that the more popular parts of their policies (e.g. public spending, job creation programs) were running on borrowed time - the government kind of strong-armed the banks into funding them, and if they were ever going to pay them back, it was through spoils of war. I guess it takes some kind of competency to put that plan into action...

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Randelung 5 points 21 days ago

Funnily enough, that's what I expect a government to do (except for the war part). Invest into the future, reap the rewards later. It's very difficult to bring about change without credit of some sort. That's why I'm always confused by the debt ceiling debate in the US - assuming the money would be invested into the country and not siphoned off, which I know is naive. But investing money it doesn't have (yet) is one of the main levers a government has, usually supported by taxes in the following years.

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rumschlumpel 4 points 21 days ago

You're not wrong. If you could be reasonably certain that you're 1. going to win the war and 2. win the war without too much damage to your own country, it would be a sound investment. The Nazis probably had enough overconfidence to believe both of those.

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ryathal -2 points 21 days ago

You make it sound like spoils of war wasn't the main income for Europe for pretty much all of history until then. Colonialism put a little nicer name on it.

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rumschlumpel 21 points 21 days ago

After industrialization, selling industrial products was frequently far more profitable than the expensive and uncertain spoils of war. Even colonialism was frequently a net loss for the governments.

And there wasn't really a likely reality where Nazi Germany fought their war in a way that was actually winnable, their overconfidence was only matched by the idiocy of many of their tactic and strategic decisions.

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musubibreakfast 5 points 21 days ago

You're right about colonialism being a net loss for the government. In the Netherlands the NSB (Dutch Nazi Party) based a lot of their messaging around the idea that if the Netherlands were to join up with the allied forces, they would be forced to relinquish their colonies.

This was absolute nonsense but it spoke to people at the time because the idea of giving the colonies their independence had become a popular talking point during the recession because they were no longer profitable (fuckery involving the united fruit company).

During the second world war the Dutch colonies would become profitable but for completely different reasons. Basically a lot of the fosfate used in bombs came from Curacao and the aluminum to craft airplanes came from Suriname.

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gandalf_der_13te 4 points 21 days ago

Even colonialism was frequently a net loss for the governments.

noteworthy the british empire never turned a profit for england at all. it was losses all the way through. the english wikipedia article mentions it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire

edit: nvm i can't find it anymore rn. probably i remembered badly

this article (Economy of the British Empire) mentions that it was profitable.

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flying_sheep 7 points 21 days ago

You're right in what you say but it's not relevant to this discussion. Colonialism is a very different MO than attacking neighboring countries.

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rumschlumpel 4 points 21 days ago

Eh, Nazi Germany basically attacked Poland to do settler colonialism (or at least that was the regime's justification). Main difference is that the Poles were more developed that e.g. the Native Americans.

IMO the error is assuming that it was likely to be successful and profitable, war/colonialism is generally not sound government policy.

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ryathal 4 points 21 days ago

It's a matter of distance really. Germany raiding France or Brazil isn't functionally different.

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gandalf_der_13te 5 points 21 days ago

most of europe had very little income from international trade until 1800 or sth

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ryathal 2 points 21 days ago

Spoils and plunder isn't really trade. Rome wasn't trading for slaves, Spain wasn't trading for gold, England wasn't trading for anything that they could lift...

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TubularTittyFrog 5 points 21 days ago

reason it was popular is because they... delivered on a lot of their political promises.

the german economy was in shambles in the 20s and early 30s and they made it boom. people like that.

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ryathal 11 points 21 days ago

"It's the economy stupid" is probably the most applicable statement to how political success happens across all systems and ages.

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TubularTittyFrog 4 points 21 days ago

and yet, despite all the 'genius' of our political consultant class, they can't seem to understand that. because they are so blinded by 'social issues', at least in the USA.

and when candidates focus on economic issues and less on social ones... they do way better at the polls and have better approval ratings... especially when their policies make a positive and visible economic impact...

but then again, in USA at least, our political class is so totally detached from economic reality of the voter, so i suppose it's inevitable, really.

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dubs 5 points 21 days ago

It's not so much that the political consultants don't understand that. It's more that they can't do anything about it: That would mean changing our economic structure to help out the workers, rather than their rich friends.

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Bigfishbest 4 points 21 days ago

George Carlin said it clearly. "Cause the owners of this country won't allow it"

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gandalf_der_13te 1 point 21 days ago

the USA politicians understand perfectly well that it's all about the economic situation. yet they have already decided that they won't tax the rich (because their rich friends say so) so they need to make up excuses and divert the attention to other topics instead. at least that's how it has been for the last 3 elections that i actually looked at up-close.

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mnemonicmonkeys 4 points 21 days ago

and they made it boom.

By taking on unrepayable levels of debt and stealing from Jewish citizens

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Fleur_ 69 points 21 days ago

Then they all stood up, looked to the flag and pledged allegiance under god.

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Smaile 16 points 21 days ago

And everyone clapped

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Gorillazrule 13 points 21 days ago

Jesus Christ. This comment made me remember that American schools actually do that daily. It was like a repressed memory. I had to actually look it up to make sure it wasn't a fever dream or something. I never participated because even as a kid it just seemed so fucking weird to me. Nobody ever gave me shit about it. We weren't forced to do it or anything. But it was still a daily occurrence before the morning announcements.

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thenextguy 7 points 21 days ago

When I learned that we didn't have to do it I stopped. But my home room teacher was a veteran and he did not take it well. Sent me the principal's office (they just sent me back). A few other kids then stopped too.

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jumping_redditor 2 points 21 days ago

once again proving that veterans are some of the worst people

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SkunkWorkz 1 point 20 days ago

There is a new pledge.

https://invidious.tiekoetter.com/...

https://youtube.com/shorts/mS7VNJk9ms4

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gsdsam 59 points 22 days ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(2008_film)

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thisisbutaname 12 points 22 days ago

It may be time to watch that one again

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TubularTittyFrog 9 points 22 days ago

I liked this one better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/...

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AI_toothbrush 5 points 22 days ago

Oh shit right, this movie exists. One of my teachers played this for us during high school. I was scammed so hard cause the only movie my classmates ever saw that had water polo in it was about nazis 💀

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lka1988 2 points 21 days ago

It was a book first. I read it as a kid in the 90s. Extremely impactful to my young brain.

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impairedimperator 57 points 21 days ago

I think the experiment worked pretty well.

It showed that nazi ideals are juvenile.

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cantstopthesignal 17 points 21 days ago

My kids idolize the garbage men and construction workers. Nothing wrong with that, but those are jobs whose purpose and value children immediately recognize. That is unlike, say, a virologist or insurance adjuster.

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impairedimperator 15 points 21 days ago

Gotta be honest I don't think that's why kids idolize them. I think that's just the heavy machinery

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Corkyskog 7 points 21 days ago

You don't see many kids idolizing roofers or brick layers... So I think you're on to something.

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djmikeale 48 points 22 days ago

The history teacher should have read up on blue eyes/brown eyes experiment and copied that one instead: https://appliedhuman.com/...

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Aneb 9 points 22 days ago

I know I'm scarred from that roleplaying scenario. We did in middle school too

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djmikeale 5 points 21 days ago

Wow you guys actually did it? I could definitely imagine this would fuck with a middle schoolers mind

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jaycifer 6 points 21 days ago

I wonder if Brandon Sanderson had read this when he was writing the Stormlight Archives. The main society seen in it has a caste system based on eye color.

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Kyrgizion 40 points 22 days ago

The true horror is asking the same questions again to the same people 8 years later... and getting the same answers again.

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gandalf_der_13te 38 points 21 days ago

hitler's policies were wildly popular. and that's the problem. people are dumb and like doing things that are actually bad for them. it's like the chimpanzee that likes eating salty food, even though it kills him.

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Smeagol666 5 points 21 days ago

Humans are basically diseased chimps so... go figure.

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reader 33 points 22 days ago

fake: anon goes to school

gay: separated from girls

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unexposedhazard 25 points 22 days ago

I doubt kids at the peak horny stage of their lives would be happy to be separated like that.

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Diplomjodler3 17 points 22 days ago

But it's on 4chan, so it must be true.

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jaybone 5 points 22 days ago

Also 4chan, so it must be gay.

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unexposedhazard 4 points 22 days ago

You are right, my bad.

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affenlehrer 8 points 22 days ago

Producing lots of children was also part of Nazi ideology

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AllNewTypeFace 23 points 22 days ago

The problem is that actually running such an experiment properly and bringing home the conclusion of the horrors of fascism would be grossly unethical and impossible to do. (Some university psychology/sociology courses did similar things in the 1960s, though experimental ethics rules back then were flimsy.)

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jumping_redditor -4 points 21 days ago

we need fewer ethics boards

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CrimeIsLegalNow 6 points 21 days ago

Funnily enough that's what the Nazis said

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jumping_redditor -1 points 21 days ago

I thought they mostly went with the nonperson human supply route

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saimen 21 points 22 days ago

The Nazis didn't introduce separate schools for boys and girls, in contrary they started to teach boys and girls together. The separation existed already before the Nazis.

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RememberTheApollo_ 20 points 21 days ago

Didn‘t really complete the experiment. None of the horrors of such a system. Wait until one of them didn‘t want the job and wanted to do something else. Straight to a work camp. Or executed. Women forced to stay at home an bang out kids. Etc.

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wieson 7 points 21 days ago

The sad truth is, that even a percentage of the class could have it really good under the system. Just an arbitrary group would disappear (let's say all names starting with L). If one overlooked the horror the system can still be popular.

The lesson would be that popular is not moral.

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RememberTheApollo_ 3 points 21 days ago

But such a system needs it obvious that the percentage has it good at the expense of the rest, and that and the rest don‘t have the power to change it. There are a lot of possible arrangements…everyone does good because the few get sacrificed (a strange sacrificial dystopia), the few get sacrificed for no gain and evryone keeps their head down because they‘re worked to death and it doesn‘t affect them directly (US now), or the sacrifices are deliberate and chosen to keep the population at large in fear and controlled (places like Nazi Germany or possibly Russia).

There aren‘t too many realistic situations I can think of where a system would be widely popular while the masses are deliberarely and knowingly killing people to propel it - and I don‘t mean to compare that to something like health care industry ROI to investors by denying claims.

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ouRKaoS 17 points 22 days ago

Episode 3

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Randelung 14 points 21 days ago

I mean, I can imagine kids feeling a sense of purpose and belonging. That education is very palpable - girls that age fawn over babies and family life, and boys would rather work the fields as long as they get recognition for it. The open choice of what to do with your life is daunting, so the promise of actual skills instead of algebra is appealing. It's basically the return to "learn a trade" we're going through now.

All in all, a suboptimal hangup for a negative Nazi image. Hitlerjugend etc. were popular programs. Like boy scouts but with (realistically probably "more") indoctrination.

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ZombiFrancis 6 points 21 days ago

Popular? They were also compulsory.

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FinjaminPoach 11 points 22 days ago

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Eheran 5 points 21 days ago

Why should they get the reference? They are just random kids.

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FinjaminPoach 1 point 21 days ago

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lightnsfw 9 points 21 days ago

To be fair learning to farm and do military shit sounds way funner than the actual crap you're doing throughout most of school.

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Lushed_Lungfish 24 points 21 days ago

Learning to do military shit was way less fun than school. A not inconsiderable amount of time is spent doing domestic chores. The rest of the time is spent sitting in class.

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lightnsfw 26 points 21 days ago

But a 14 year old isn't going to know that. They'd be thinking about shooting guns and doing obstacles and driving tanks around and shit like that.

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Smaile 10 points 21 days ago

Yah but kids are to dumb to know that yet

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gandalf_der_13te 1 point 21 days ago

i was at the military (we have to in my country) for a few months and what we did was 20% eat, 40% sports, 30% sit around and 10% drink.

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Lushed_Lungfish 2 points 21 days ago

Basic for me involved polishing boots/shoes, folding shirts, making bed, keeping room clean, ironing clothes, gym, laundry, hastily gobbled meals, cleaning rifle, academics, drill and about three weeks of combined field training with sleep deprivation.

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Leviathan 9 points 21 days ago

Wake up at 5am and do your bed and Iron your clothes before some dickhead screams you up a hill and then teaches you a class of shit you still don't care about? Then you get to shovel some pig shit?

Wow. Sign me up.

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Smeagol666 6 points 21 days ago

This was the premise of the TV movie The Wave that came out in the early 80s.

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bigmamoth 2 points 20 days ago

It s a book that was based on this exact experimentation. Wikipedia is free

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bstix 2 points 21 days ago