Guys, hear me out.

3 days ago by A404 to c/flippanarchy

Perhaps teaching children to never question authority was a bad idea

taiyang 44 points 3 days ago

Studies on obedience (e.g. replications of Milgrim Experiment) suggest a lot of factors play into people harming and killing others on behalf of an authority. Original was 65% of participants, but it can to up to 90% with men in authoritarian cultures.

My favorite was Australian women having the lowest rate of obedience in the shock experiment, at only 16%, being relatively individualistic and rebellious culturally, but even less obedient then men as women are less likely to conform when it involves harming others. That may have changed in recent years though, as people more comfortable with authoritarianism tend to be more likely to obey.

Typically, people least likely to obey the order have better social intelligence and moral development. Unfortunately, those traits are far and few between lately...

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OwOarchist 33 points 3 days ago

Typically, people least likely to obey the order have better social intelligence and moral development. Unfortunately, those traits are far and few between lately…

There's a reason American fascists are trying to demonize the concept of 'empathy'.

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taiyang 8 points 3 days ago

Absolutely, empathy is easily the enemy of fascism. And the worst thing to them is unity, as we have the most empathy for people we consider in-group, so division only feeds into their agenda.

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GraniteM 1 point a day ago

In all of the discussions, Höss is quite matter-of-fact and apathetic, shows some belated interest in the enormity of his crime, but gives the impression that it never would have occurred to him if somebody hadn't asked him. There is too much apathy to leave any suggestion of remorse and even the prospect of hanging does not unduly stress him. One gets the general impression of a man who is intellectually normal, but with the schizoid apathy, insensitivity and lack of empathy that could hardly be more extreme in a frank psychotic.

From the Wikipedia article Rudolf Höss, about the commandant of Auschwitz.

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teslekova 8 points 3 days ago

Straya. Brings a tear to me eye mate.

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LegoBrickOnFire 2 points 2 days ago

Do you have a book or a paper which aggregates these studies?

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taiyang 2 points 2 days ago

I picked up a fair amount from an OER textbook that references the studies on its chapter on conformity and obedience, but I bet there is a meta analysis out there with a more comprehensive list. The only issue is later studies on this can't ethically go beyond a certain amount of fake voltage, as the original studies went a bit too far it's getting people to think they killed someone.

The textbook in question is available here: https://opentextbc.ca/socialpsychology/

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fosho -2 points 2 days ago

but even less obedient then men as women are less likely to confirm when it involves harming others

Yo, please do better. I really want to know what you're saying but I cannot figure it out.

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taiyang 1 point 2 days ago

Sorry, my phone corrected conform to confirm. I think most people picked that up by context, but simply typing it several times just now it reverted to confirm. Lol

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daddycool 40 points 3 days ago

I have always wondered about this sort of thing. Powerful people are only powerful because people choose to obey them.

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Bubbaonthebeach 26 points 3 days ago

Not even obey. Many people willingly follow along mostly because they think someone they don't like will get hurt. Trump isn't destoying the US on his own. He is being aided by a large portion of the conservative population.

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Malica 3 points 3 days ago

Choice is the wrong word, it's rarely an honest choice

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gwl 2 points 2 days ago

I mean that's gross oversimplification, they also use violence of the state to force what they want

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daddycool 6 points 2 days ago

To use violence, they still need someone to carry that out.

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gwl 1 point 2 days ago

Those people don't need to believe in it though, there's plenty of people who will do violence for the sake of violence

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drunkpostdisaster 2 points 2 days ago

ThenUS basically has a nation wide grooming campaign tonget boys to join the military. You're not wrong, but the problem is deeper then that.

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Sunflier 33 points 2 days ago

Only 13 million? I think that severely limits his responsibility. Hitler didn't cause just 13 million deaths. Hitler caused 13 million jews to be killed + 65 million allies + ~44k in the blitzkreig + ~5 million german soldiers + all the other groups targeted in the holocaust (Roma, Gypsies, LGBT, mental patients, etc.) + all the civilians that got caught up in the battlefield (Africa + Europe). In total, Hitler mighta got 100 million.

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ddplf 5 points 2 days ago

Hurr, nooo, those are the victims of comyunusm

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Proprietary_Blend 2 points 2 days ago

That's 100 million billion!

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Earthwormjim91 3 points a day ago

It was 6 million Jews, 13 million total in the camps.

There weren’t even 13 million Jews in Europe before wwii lol.

And total deaths, military and civilian, during wwii were 75-85 million. You don’t need to make up numbers. It was already the most human death in history. Making shit up gives the conspiracy nuts ammo.

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mirshafie 0 points 18 hours ago

I believe most estimates converge around 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.

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Sunflier 1 point 14 hours ago

6 million jew, okay. But I didn't quantify all the other victims of the camps.

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teslekova 21 points 3 days ago

He was a soldier in the Great War, but I see your point.

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technocrit 1 point a day ago

There is no such thing as a great war. ffs.

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teslekova 1 point a day ago

I dunno, it had some cool stuff. Like, um... Those grenades on sticks? Pretty great.

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Crewman 13 points 2 days ago

The only difference between Osama Bin Laden and Brian Thompson, is that Brian got people killed for money.

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A404 6 points 2 days ago

That and he did structural violence. Our brains are not adapted to react to that emotionally

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Proprietary_Blend 0 points 2 days ago

Sir. This post is about Hitler

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Valmond 11 points 2 days ago

And the person he killed? The most evil person ever: Hitler!

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Test_Tickles 5 points 2 days ago

Also Hitlers wife.

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Valmond 4 points 2 days ago

She killed herself, one could argue.

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Proprietary_Blend 2 points 2 days ago

And Whistler's mother

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bedwyr 10 points 2 days ago

I think Hitler is said to have killed people in the first world war.

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SippyCup 17 points 2 days ago

He was a courier. There are no records and no eyewitness accounts of Hitler ever killing anyone in combat, and he saw very little of it. Hitler himself makes no claims at ever killing an enemy soldier.

He also dodged the draft in Austria-Hungary so that's fun.

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Proprietary_Blend 3 points 2 days ago

Thanks Eva! I'm glad your doing well

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bedwyr 1 point 2 days ago

Oh thanks for the correction then, even if he did claim it I wouldn't believe it obviously, I thought he was supposed to have taken a bunch of prisoners at gunpoint but that memory of reading that is from like decades back now so idk.

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ultranaut 6 points 2 days ago

There was recently news about Hitler probably murdering his niece in 1931. She supposedly killed herself in his apartment but historians found old archives that apparently suggest that's not what actually happened.

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Diplomjodler3 7 points 3 days ago

Does Hitler killing himself not count?

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Sharkticon 61 points 3 days ago

Pretty sure thats the one.

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CrimeIsLegalNow 27 points 3 days ago

He was a war hero from WW1 so it was presumably a bit higher than that, but the vibe is there.

Also both the Holocaust numbers and war deaths are wrong so I'm very curious about where exactly 13 million came from, especially considering one of the things Nazi did was militarize law enforcement even more than Germany already did, which was considerable.

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Aqarius 4 points 2 days ago

I don't remember him being a war hero, just a veteran. And the number isn't for the war, it's "law enforcement", so, death camps (including the Jews, Slavs, Roma...) and various raids and mass executions all over the occupied territories.

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CrimeIsLegalNow 1 point 2 days ago

He received the second and first class Iron Crosses, the first class famously on the recommendation of his Jewish officer.

People compare them pretty frequently to the Bronze Star. I don't think that's quite right because the award systems are simply different but by all accounts the first class award was a rarity for his rank.

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cnirrad 4 points 3 days ago

Ironically that was the best thing he ever done

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MelodiousFunk 3 points 3 days ago

Just goes to show that bad people can do good things, and vice versa.

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Diplomjodler3 2 points 3 days ago

What about Eva Braun?

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daddycool 2 points 3 days ago

She committed suicide with a cyanide capsule.

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RickyRigatoni 1 point 3 days ago

What about his dog

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AdolfSchmitler 2 points 3 days ago

Probably assumed he escaped to Argentina so left it at 0.

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Greymattertripp 0 points 3 days ago

Pretty safe to assume he went somewhere because he wasn't in that hole. Dental records confirmed that.

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xspurnx 1 point 3 days ago

Sauce?

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naught101 7 points 3 days ago

This also applies to everyone in tech blindly contributing to the AI bubble and the rise in fascism

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Gammelfisch 7 points 2 days ago

Indeed and the MAGA fucknuts would do the same for Mango Mussolini.

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20cello 6 points 3 days ago

Enablers must die

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WoodScientist 5 points 2 days ago

The point still stands, but did Hitler never kill even one person with his own two hands? Did he not find the time to go down to a camp and kill a few innocents himself? Seems like a thing would be bound to happen.

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RaoulDuke25 7 points 2 days ago

He was in the military in WW1, so he may have killed a few people.

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funkless_eck 7 points 2 days ago

Some historians seem to think he would've mentioned it in Mein Kampf if he had.

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WoodScientist 2 points 2 days ago

Yeah I knew he was in WW1, and may have taken a life there. But I'm wondering about when he was actually in power. Like, did history's greatest anti-Semite really resist the temptation to do a little dirty work himself? Did he never take an afternoon to go throw the lever on a gas chamber himself? It's not like he couldn't have easily arranged such a thing.

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khaleer 5 points 2 days ago

"They only followed orders" is the most fucking stupid way to defend the oppressor, yet it works, because people have no balls to stand for themselves in such situations.

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technocrit 1 point a day ago

In fairness it's hard to stand your ground when surrounded by murderous fascists.

Where I live, fash put people in cages for decades just for having zines.

https://www.theguardian.com/...

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SippyCup 1 point 2 days ago

Notably, it didn't work.

Adolf Eichmann is the guy who made that claim famous, and he was hung almost immediately after his trial.

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Nouvellalia 3 points 2 days ago

Notably it worked really well

A few dozen people were executed for German war crimes. These people were not "just following orders", regardless of what they said. They were creating orders.

Thousands and thousands of people directly responsible for nazi slaughter were safely smuggled out of Germany by the CIA, given new names, and resettled in America, Canada, South America, South Africa, and more.

These people were also creating orders, and yet they were freed from any consequences, including even the economic ones that followed in postwar Germany. They went on to fertilize many of the fascist, racist movements we see taking over today.

Millions more lower level people who only directly murdered others by pulling a trigger, were let off the hook completely. Many got to keep their positions of violent state enforcement. These were the only people "just following orders" and they all escaped prosecution.

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Proprietary_Blend 0 points 2 days ago

I'm sure you're balls would be all over the place

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Malica 4 points 3 days ago

You know it's a bad idea when it's the military strategy to build obedient soldiers

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Smeagol666 4 points a day ago

We should give Hitler a posthumous peace prize for killing the leader of the Nazis. Maybe that could inspire a certain fat orange pedophile to follow suit.

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Akasazh 1 point a day ago

I will have to be the peace prize though

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NigelFrobisher 2 points 3 days ago

Dr Harold Shipman has entered the chat.

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SCmSTR 1 point 2 days ago

Goons are the ones doing it and had their chance to get out and choose to keep going. Spare no goons.

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HCSOThrowaway -2 points 2 days ago

This isn't even a cop thing, though I have no doubt the rate would be higher if empirically tested; cops tend to be very Conventional Morality in the sense that If Legal -> Moral.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

TL;DR: 65% of people would kill someone if given an order to do so (and some plausible deniability).

My money's on it being 70-80% for US cops, maybe higher. My only real metric on this is the one guy I knew who made an arrest he was ordered to that he (should have) known wasn't legal and shrugged his shoulders about retelling the incident, saying "I'm a soldier (he was an Army veteran); I follow orders."

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Funkt4st1c 2 points 2 days ago

Pulling a gun and shooting a person running away from you is hardly plausible deniability.

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HCSOThrowaway 1 point 19 hours ago

Did you just not read the Wikipedia article or what?

Maybe you're implying shooting people running away is common in US law enforcement?

Don't be glib; state your point with some conviction.

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Burn_The_Right -3 points 3 days ago

As long as conservatives continue to live, the normal people will continue to be oppressed.

If not for conservatives, the epstein class could be charged with crimes, forced to pay fair wages and be required to pay fair taxes. If not for conservatives, capitalism could be regulated, climate change could be addressed, housing prices and wealth inequality could be cured, for-profit prison camps could be abolished and genocide could be resisted.

Every invasion and every genocide in human history has been led exclusively by conservatives. They are truly, deeply evil and will never change. Never. Only their complete erasure can bring us peace.

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technocrit 0 points a day ago

This comment would be more convincing if you just called them fascists instead of using the meaningless euphemism of "conservative".

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Burn_The_Right 1 point 20 hours ago

Conservatives are fascists. They are the same people. Always have been.

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doingthestuff -12 points a day ago

Number of people killed by communism: crazy way fucking more.

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skibidi 5 points a day ago

Now do the number of people killed by British capitalism in India

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FlyingCircus 5 points a day ago

Capitalism kills as many as the most inflated numbers attributed to communism every 10 years. The Black Book of Communism, widely cited for its accounting of deaths allegedly caused by communist states, estimates that communism has killed 100 million people. This includes Nazi soldiers killed in WW2 and, bizarrely, the unborn children that hypothetically would have been born if there hadn't been a famine or a war.

To this day, 10 million people who live under capitalism die from starvation and preventable disease simply because it isn't profitable to save them. If we take the Black Book seriously, and agree that every death that happened under a communist state (preventable or not) is attributable to the communist ideology, then we must also agree that every death under a capitalist regime is attributable to capitalism. If we do that, then capitalism is the most murderous ideology there has ever been.

Even if you don't want to agree with the above logic, we can look at how US sanctions have directly led to the deaths of 38 million people in 50 years. These sanctions are murder done solely to coerce countries into falling in line with US interests.

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Hobo 2 points a day ago

...the unborn children that hypothetically would have been born if there hadn’t been a famine or a war.

One of those kids could've gone on to have a kid that has a kid that helps populate the whole universe. So the real number is closer to 500 kajillion million trillion.

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A404 4 points a day ago

uhm, this is an anarchist sub

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FlyingCircus 1 point 17 hours ago

Honestly, I’m happily surprised this guy is being ratioed like this. We are subverting the leftist infighting trope.

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homosapien 1 point 16 hours ago

source?

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Flippant Anarchism. A lighter take on social criticism with the aim of agitation.

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