That post seems to be missing.

filister 112 points 3 years ago

How many more civilians need to die for the Western democracies to start openly condemning Israel. This is making me so sick. And it shows the double standards that we have.

And I am tired of hearing that Israel has the right to defend themselves, this doesn't give them the right to cause humanitarian catastrophe, displace hundreds of thousands and kill a disproportionate number of people.

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alvvayson 93 points 3 years ago

A right to self-defense is not a blank check to commit war crimes.

And the Western governments are being so hypocritical, that we are attracting the anger of a billion Muslims and others who sympathize with the Palestinians.

We are risking the safety of our own civilians by supporting the war crimes by an apartheid state. And it brings us no benefit, at all.

This madness has to stop. We should be neutral and stop supporting apartheid in Israel. Condemn terrorism by Hamas and war crimes by Israel, but stop supporting Israel and let them figure it out with their Arab neighbours.

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Pyr_Pressure 21 points 3 years ago

If Israel really wanted protection they would offer a peace treaty and guarantees to not take any more land with Gaza if Palestinians handed over every member of Hamas for prosecution / imprisonment / execution.

But they want that land so they don't care how many civilians deaths it takes, they like having Hamas there because it provides them excuses.

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hotdaniel -27 points 3 years ago

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misterdoctor 19 points 3 years ago

This is a catastrophically bad take on what they said. Condemnation of Israeli war crimes does not equal antisemitism or an endorsement of Hamas. You can abhor Hamas and Israeli war crimes at the same time, the two are not mutually exclusive.

But I suspect you already knew that.

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Masterchief117 12 points 3 years ago

Bibbi outright said Hamas was good for Israel. It’s hilarious you’re calling people sheep when you buy every single piece of propaganda coming from Israel. History matters, context matters. Don’t have an open air concentration camp outside “your city” and your neighbors would like you better. Stop excusing war crimes cause the perpetrators are on your side.

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hassanmckusick 6 points 3 years ago

Seems like you don't know that Netanyahu funded Hamas on multiple occasions

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coyootje 13 points 3 years ago

There's already been 2 terrorist attacks in Europe and based on the evacuations of public spaces in France it seems like it's only the start. I'm not sure if it's all because of the war (the attack in Brussels seems to be more related to ISIS according to the news) but it sure seems like it's gotten a lot more frequent since it really kicked off last week.

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filister 2 points 3 years ago

And the last thing we want right now is another war. This would be a disaster and cause so much suffering to all parties involved.

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SkyezOpen 0 points 3 years ago

let them figure it out with their Arab neighbours.

I have a bad feeling that would result in... Well, more obvious genocide than is currently happening. I think the only reason Israel hasn't already turned all of Gaza into a smoking crater is because they would become a pariah in the international community.

Not that there are better options, and fwiw it's probably the correct thing to do overall, I'm just worried about the consequences.

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floofloof 14 points 3 years ago

is because they would become a pariah in the international community.

It's not even clear they would.

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Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever -12 points 3 years ago

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aniki 10 points 3 years ago

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Gargantu8 6 points 3 years ago

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erranto 1 point 3 years ago

It won't happen because Western Nations are innately racist and supremacist. they see other races below their own, thus their lives less valuable.

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XpeeN -3 points 3 years ago

OK so taking the fact that Hamas hides themselves and their equipment at places that will force killing civilians to clear targets out, what would you do instead? How would you do it so their attacks would stop, beside alerting civilians and then remove intelled targets (both top org people and equipment)?

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BradleyUffner 10 points 3 years ago

Send ground troops instead of leveling an entire city from miles away, from a safe comfy chair where you never have to see all the collateral damage?

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PizzaMan 7 points 3 years ago

That, and ending the apartheid.

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BradleyUffner 5 points 3 years ago

Sure, if you want to do it the easy way, but then we don't get to see all the cool explosions.

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XpeeN 1 point 3 years ago

In my inexpert eyes, I don't think group troops will help much because all the info about targets IDF has will become outdated as Hamas will move everything they can. And even if they wouldn't, letting troops fighting at a foreign place, that the enemy has control at and can prepare amushes and traps at will risk more lives than letting civilians the chance to reposition and live (I don't take into account the building that gets destroyed, its sad but not worth sacrificing lives for IMO, and that can be fixed with money), and from past lessons (more resources online obviously) I wouldn't be suprised if Hamas will just use civilians as cover. Ground troops enterance won't mean no civilian casuallties, Hamas makes sure of it, that's part of how they get sempathy and support (such a disgusting act, It's not even about what they're fighting for at this point. Who acts like that??). And of course that'll open the option Hamas waiting for the most, kidnapping soldiers.

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SCB -7 points 3 years ago

This didn't age well, and it's only 2 hours old

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ParsnipWitch 3 points 3 years ago

They won't come back to it and just save it in their memory as another "genocidal attack" by Israel while Hamas apparently just did an Oopsie.

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hotdaniel -25 points 3 years ago

How much propoganda do you need to read before you're ready to attack Israel? Apparently, not much. Israel has already declared they didn't do this attack and it was a failed Jihadist missile. Which would you believe, that a nation that has been warning people to evacuate and shown more restraint than any other nation would have by not flattening Gaza, or a literal terrorist organization known for bombing their own citizens? Who is more trustworthy there. You're drinking the kool-aid and it's time to put the cup down.

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hightrix 39 points 3 years ago

As has been repeated repeatedly, the first casualty of war is the truth.

Do not believe either side. Only independent reports.

If I was Hamas, I would absolutely call whatever happened an air strike from Israel.

If I was Israel, I would absolutely call whatever happened a failed rocket explosion from Hamas.

Do not believe either side. They are both lying.

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luthis 3 points 3 years ago

Agreed. This is a great way for Israel to lose international support and gain more enemies. It's not .. 'justifiable' (that word is doing a lot of work) as a part of taking down Hamas.

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hotdaniel -11 points 3 years ago

That's fine, but that's not what's happening in this thread. Plenty of people are quite willing to jump to blame Israel. I am perfectly fine blaming Hamas, the terrorist organization known for attacking its own citizens and blaming Israel. This is exactly out of their play book. Israel gains nothing but condemnation for attacking a hospital and given the restraint they've shown so far towards Gaza, it's simply more likely Hamas than Israel did this.

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tocopherol 13 points 3 years ago

This is exactly out of Israel's playbook as well though, they attacked the very same hospital just within the week. "Restraint" towards Gaza? Last I heard there were over 6000 strikes launched by Israel, leveling whole villages, killing entire families. Over 2000 people killed inside Palestine after the first night of retaliation by Israel, striking numerous apartment blocks, hospitals and schools. I doubt anything will change your mind about the righteousness of Israel but I just want to point this out in case anyone thinks you have a good point.

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hightrix 12 points 3 years ago

I am perfectly fine blaming Hamas

Obviously. I’m perfectly fine blaming whoever is responsible, that being Israel or Hamas.

You aren’t. Prove me wrong.

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filister 4 points 3 years ago

Ugh, what restraint are you talking about? By stopping the electricity, water and food to Gaza, or by forcefully displacing hundreds of thousands or by flattening a whole residential neighbourhood.

I am not defending Hamas, in a perfect world they wouldn't exist and I would be happy if they are gone forever, but the way Israel is treating Palestinians both in Gaza and in the West bank isn't exactly a recipe for long lasting peace.

You can't expect that people would just tolerate whatever shit you give them and there won't be dissent voices, and radicalization. And don't start that this is only happening on the Palestinian side, because a lot of Palestinians were simply killed by Israeli settlers.

Both nations are victims of their own propaganda, and it is religion and politics that divide us as humanity. For me everyone deserves a decent life, no matter the skin colour, religious belief or nation, full stop.

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ParsnipWitch 0 points 3 years ago

It doesn't matter what Hamas or Palestine does. If they kill everyone in Israel people would cheer for them and perhaps in a sidenote claim "Sucks for the civilians, but yay Palestine!".

I wonder if they still cheer when the area is under Palestinian control with everything that comes with it. Goodbye LGBTQ and women's rights.

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breakfastmtn 88 points 3 years ago

The IDF has now said that the blast was caused by a failed missile launch from Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

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SCB 48 points 3 years ago

There's video of the failed launch here

Watch 19:59 to 20:01 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtruJztXE5w

Also, from Al Jazeera broadcast https://twitter.com/...

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breakfastmtn 14 points 3 years ago

That seems to just be a live webcam feed.

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SCB 12 points 3 years ago

Yeah I fucked up so I edited in the time stamp

Watch 19:59 to 20:01

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SeaJ 6 points 3 years ago

Is that 19:59 minutes in or at the time 19:59?

Edit: I am guessing at the time of the Gaza City video since there is a barrage of missions being fired.

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breakfastmtn 5 points 3 years ago

Much appreciated! Thanks!!

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mlg 7 points 3 years ago

My dude live streams work in negative timestamps (T- from live feed), those numbers are useless.

The second video is also not useful without a geographical reference. It's literally a video shot in the dark of a missile launch.

A much closer video shows an incoming whistle, not an outgoing sound: https://twitter.com/i/status/1714366113818038412

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SCB 11 points 3 years ago

My dude I meant the timestamp from within the Livestream in the top right of the left cam. Local time, not minutes elapsed

A rocket misfiring and hitting a elsewhere in the city (as shown in my video) would make an incoming whistle.

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c0mbatbag3l 5 points 3 years ago

Apparently this guy thinks the missile was launched from inside the hospital or something.

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ApexHunter 1 point 3 years ago

The whistle tells you the direction the rocket came from relative to the position of the camera. We know the rocket had to pass over the camera position before striking the hospital, and from that you can extrapolate where it came from.

None of the videos purporting to show a misfired rocket align with the one verified video showing the strike. The video posted by idf of what they claim is the rocket barrage responsible for hitting the hospital was shown to have been taken after the hospital strike (and has since been removed from their post).

There is a lot of finger pointing and blame going on right now. I'm less inclined to believe the side misrepresenting evidence, but neither side can be trusted on their word alone. This means we need evidence, which is in short supply at the moment.

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PipedLinkBot 6 points 3 years ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

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PsyKiere 0 points 3 years ago

The time on Al Jazeera's broadcast doesn't seem to match the time of the attack.

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SCB 13 points 3 years ago

Discrepancies are due to time zones.

See also this (entire) thread:

https://twitter.com/...

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PsyKiere 3 points 3 years ago

Al Jazeera's shown time (Mecca) and Gaza share the same time zone at this time of year. However, I maybe got the time of the attack wrong, it's unclear.

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Silverseren 2 points 3 years ago

Time zones would be in full hour differences, not a little over half an hour.

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PsyKiere 1 point 3 years ago

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BigDill99 18 points 3 years ago

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Pipoca 33 points 3 years ago

Misfires happen, but "rocket falls short of target on empty field" isn't a news story; you'll never hear about it. You'll only hear about them when they result in tragedy.

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PersnickityPenguin 2 points 3 years ago

IDF stated that over 450 missiles from the past week launched towards Israel crashed inside Gaza. That's a 5-10% failure rate which seems reasonable.

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BigDill99 -4 points 3 years ago

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jarfil 6 points 3 years ago

A hospital that's still standing with a bunch of burnt cars in the parking lot, while some people claim "80% destruction" and "500 dead" after taking a photoshoot in a corner of the parking lot, surrounded by like a dozen dead kids.

It's a tragedy. It's also BS, just which way.

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Lemmyboi -8 points 3 years ago

Of course they will do that, while for the past days requesting evacuation of the same hospital and suddenly today it's a misfire?

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MeanEYE 14 points 3 years ago

Did you see the impact? It burned 7 cars. If that caused 500 casualties, I'll eat my own underwear.

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hassanmckusick -3 points 3 years ago

I saw this impact are you doubting that could kill 500 people?

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MeanEYE 4 points 3 years ago

Yes. You need to Google and see just how big of a surface 500 people takes and how densely they would have to be for this explosion to kill them.

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Gargantu8 2 points 3 years ago

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aniki -29 points 3 years ago

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hotdaniel -47 points 3 years ago

Prove it. You're defending Hamas, a literal terrorist organization known for attacking its citizens. They blow their citizens up and blame Israel, then the Arab community unites to call for death to Israel. This is exactly what they do. Are you a sheep, so easily herded? Pull the wool from your eyes.

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hassanmckusick 35 points 3 years ago

Israel has killed 36x as many children as Hamas. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

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hotdaniel -74 points 3 years ago

Thanks for that absolutely irrelevant fact. Civilians die in war. One side of this war is a democratic government, the other is a literal terrorist organization. Are you defending terrorists today? Is that what you woke up to do on the internet?

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Cethin 8 points 3 years ago

Prove it. You're defending Israel, a literal terrorist state...

Such a stupid argument. Israel's kill count is much higher. Which one is worse?

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hotdaniel -102 points 3 years ago

This community doesn't care. They are anti-semitic. Any excuse to openly call for death to Israel will be taken advantage of. The facts are irrelevant.

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funkpandemic 87 points 3 years ago

Being against the genocide of gazans isn't anti-semitism. God damn it this is basic shit, how many times does this shit have to be explained.

And if you're taking the IDF's word at face value... lol

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assassin_aragorn 20 points 3 years ago

That's one of the most frustrating things about discussing this. Racists and antisemites are running free and forcing us to be wary. You've got people saying it's okay for Israel to kill kids, but wrong of Hamas to. You've got people refusing to condemn Hamas for their attack, and instead blaming it all on Israel.

This issue has way more extremists than usual, and it's exhausting.

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SCB 6 points 3 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtruJztXE5w

Here's a live cam shot of the misfire. Watch 19:59 to 20:01

Current speculation is that it hit ammo stores in or near the hospital, which is a common Hamas war crime.

Also from Al Jazeera https://twitter.com/...

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Silverseren 6 points 3 years ago

The timestamp for the misfire panel is a half hour prior to the hospital being hit.

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PipedLinkBot 2 points 3 years ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

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hotdaniel 4 points 3 years ago

From the article:

The HAMAS-RUN Health Ministry in the Gaza Strip says at least 500 people have been killed in an explosion that it says was caused by an Israeli airstrike.

So you won't trust Israel but you'll trust Hamas? Lmao.

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funkpandemic 8 points 3 years ago

You're right, I was hasty. I'll reserve my judgement for when there's better information out there. Hamas is absolutely not to be trusted either.

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Ullallulloo -10 points 3 years ago

Much better to take a literal terrorist organization's word at face value despite video evidence to the contrary, of course.

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Eldritch 7 points 3 years ago

Who? The Israeli government? I don't believe anything they or hamas say on face value.

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hotdaniel -18 points 3 years ago

I don't see you protesting the deaths of Israelite? You know, that thing Hamas did that started the current events? Also, you realize you're taking anti-Israeli propaganda at face value? That's what al Jazeera is now. As others posted, there's videos of the rocket misfire.

Who stands more to gain from this? A terrorist organization known for attacking its own citizens and blaming it on Israel? Or a nation that will receive universal condemnation for such an event?

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funkpandemic 32 points 3 years ago

Fuck Hamas, and fuck the Israeli government. Let's wait for more reporting to verify who killed 500 people in a hospital (fuck whoever did that). But in the meantime maybe don't be claiming anti semitism when people ask for genocide to stop?

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Masterchief117 4 points 3 years ago

OH NO!?! CONDEMNATION?!? THE HORROR!!

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tocopherol 19 points 3 years ago

If anyone has love for Jewish people, for any people, they should condemn Israel. You are wrong. This attitude has helped allow the slaughter of thousands of innocent people over decades. To condemn Israel is to have humanity. To support the Palestinian people's struggle for freedom is to support justice. I love Jewish people, I've studied the Holocaust, I've spent massive time studying Nazism, modern movements and the history. The actions of the Israeli government and the IDF must be stopped by all means necessary.

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hotdaniel -10 points 3 years ago

No, I love Jewish people too but I support Israel's right to defend itself. The Palestinian people can't go free so long as there exists among them organizations that long for the destruction of Israel and all Jews. The quickest path to freedom for Palestine and the fewest loss of innocents is the elimination of Hamas. Sorry, but that's how this works. If there is cancer in the body, you kill good cells to kill the cancer. You must, or else you yourself will be destroyed. I don't celebrate the deaths of innocents on either side. But I am at least aware that with Israel, there is the possibility of peace. With Hamas, there can never be.

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naevaTheRat 6 points 3 years ago

This rhetoric... I've seen it before. I can't believe my eyes.

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blitzkrieg 5 points 3 years ago

Hamas doesn't exist in the west bank, so why are people there getting killed?

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ParsnipWitch 3 points 3 years ago

Good that you studied the Holocaust. Because this is how Nazis justified their genocide and it's also how Hamas and similar groups justify their violence:

If there is cancer in the body, you kill good cells to kill the cancer.

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TunaCowboy 17 points 3 years ago

Maybe if the IDF wasn't busy blowing up journalists (again) we could get some credible information.

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hotdaniel 0 points 3 years ago

From the article:

The Hamas-run Health Ministry in the Gaza Strip says at least 500 people have been killed in an explosion that it says was caused by an Israeli airstrike.

Who needs journalists when you have Hamas to report for you. That's apparently acceptable for this community of news.

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sndmn 6 points 3 years ago

It's everybody else that is wrong, not me! /s

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dx1 1 point 3 years ago

Appeal to majority fallacy. Though yes that guy is full of it.

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Rambi 1 point 3 years ago

Clearly you are very stupid.

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dangblingus 83 points 3 years ago

Well this oughta change a few hearts and minds. War is hell, but this is a straight up crime.

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Fredselfish 65 points 3 years ago

Yeah they aren't victims they have been doing shit like this to Palestinian for long time.

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filister 34 points 3 years ago

And all the UN resolutions condemning them and all the human rights watch groups exposing them and still not an open condemnation from any Western democracy.

Seriously I want to see what Biden will say after this. If he continues to support this regime, it would be a disgrace

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Krauerking 6 points 3 years ago

And the answer was?

“Based on what I’ve seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team, not you,”

Biden says after fully hugging Netanyahu. So that's a point for spineless apologist that will always see Israel as a team sport that only his side is the good one.

Reminder that Grandpa already had to walk back (or his PR team did for him since he didn't actually say anything about it personally other than the lie) about dozens of beheaded Israeli children.
So, don't expect that condemnation any time soon no matter what Israel does. He clearly won't ever mind.

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shadysus 4 points 3 years ago

This shouldn't be a controversial take either. Even WITHIN Israel, the majority of Israeli's want Netanyahu and his administration gone. There were massive protests over months over the years of corruption. There are criminal charges filed against him and his family. Right now after the attacks, there are widespread calls for his resignation and an investigation into why the response to the initial attacks were so bad.

Given all that, it doesn't make sense for any world leader to continue to support his administration. Especially if countries are meant to be allies of the Israeli people.

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aniki -4 points 3 years ago

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Warl0k3 6 points 3 years ago

Idk, hes at least going to Israel and has two carrier groups next door. Geopolitics is always a game of "pin the tail on the utter bastard" (Historical example: Belgium still has chocolate cookies in the shape of hands! Thanks, leo).

It's a stunningly unexpected move that biden has even done this much towards israel, and it seems like a pretty clear overture.

oh and yeah, what do you want him to do here? US boots on the ground in the middle of yet another proxy war is the most direct solution though I understand why he's hesitant to play that card against an actively genocidal religious dictatorship that has nuclear weapons

I hate that I'm defending biden but come on man you know it's more complicated than your take implies.

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Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever 23 points 3 years ago

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hotdaniel -22 points 3 years ago

But it was Hamas that blew up the hospital. You know, the literal terrorist organization known for attacking its citizens?

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Lemmyboi 1 point 3 years ago

Hamas doesn't have that type of ammunition if it had this war would be different

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Warl0k3 -1 points 3 years ago

We don't know who it was. 500 people are confirmed dead in this incident and countless others are missing, and the best thing you can think to do is come in here and vehemently assign blame?

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MeanEYE 4 points 3 years ago

There are no 500 confirmed people. It's just a number Hamas thrown out there and everyone is deepthroating it. Parking lot that got burned is not big enough for 500 people to pile on.

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hotdaniel -9 points 3 years ago

To be clear, I'm responding to people who have already assigned blame to Israel for this. If you're opposed to jumping to conclusions, you should be calling out those top-level comments. Go on.

The 500 number, to my knowledge, is an exaggeration and the source was a Hamas spokesperson. Do you have a source for that number?

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SkyezOpen 50 points 3 years ago

but this is a straight up crime.

So was cutting off water and power to the whole area, so was using white phosphorus in populated areas, so was killing unarmed people in their own towns, so was...

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hotdaniel -40 points 3 years ago

So was invading Israel, raping and killing its parents, brutalizing it's children, and uploading it all to Facebook. Oh and the hostages.

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Warl0k3 18 points 3 years ago

Of course the person shilling for the IDF doesnt seem to understand that Palestinians =/= Hamas nor that the wholesale slaughter of innocents is in no way a justifiable response

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misterdoctor 11 points 3 years ago

Oh they understand that perfectly well, the trouble is that they choose not to make that distinction because otherwise the basis for their entire anti-Palestinian worldview collapses

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hotdaniel -11 points 3 years ago

I have been and always will be anti-Hamas. And never have I said that Palestinians == Hamas. You have to misquote me to attack me. You're defending literal terrorists that would kill you without hesitation, who raped parents and brutalized children. Israel has shown great restraint towards the Palestinian people. Does Gaza still exist? Have they leveled it, like any other nation would have after having hundreds of rockets per day shot at them? Of course, Israel is trying to minimize civilian casualties, and for that you will attack them.

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tocopherol 10 points 3 years ago

If the inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto escaped and murdered German citizens living around the ghetto, would you be pointing out this crime or would you think it more relevant to discuss the crimes of the Nazis in power, still going on? Israel has been doing this for decades. Even just the night after the attack by Hamas, Israeli airstrikes killed over 300 children.

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hotdaniel -13 points 3 years ago

Yes, it would be more relevant to discuss the context of the Nazi oppression. In the case of Israel, they clearly are defending themselves from an existential threat from Hamas. And they have shown great restraint in what they've done. You don't have to like it, but any other nation would have leveled Gaza by now, but Israel has not done that. They've stated the target of their war very clearly. They are there to dedtroy Hamas. Undoubtedly, innocents will die. That happens in any war. The quickest path to peace for both sides, is for Hamas to be destroyed. If their is cancer in your body, you kill good cells in order to kill the cancer. It's sad, but necessary.

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JoeKrogan 16 points 3 years ago

Doubt it. There is a lot of Israeli money influencing US politics.

https://www.theguardian.com/...

That is just one link but when searching there are others.

Nobody wants to be branded as antisemitic and tried in the court of the media. It would be a political stain on their career.

The tragedy is that for many years jews and muslims lived in peace in that region before the formation of the state of Israel, before zionism took hold.

Its heartbreaking to watch. All of the innocent people caught up in this.

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soggy_kitty 3 points 3 years ago

I'm so confused who did this, every media outlet in UK is saying it's Hamas but Lemmy says it's isreal. How do I ensure I don't get fed false information, because at least one of my favourite sources is wrong/lying. And that's heartbreaking

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kromem 5 points 3 years ago

It's not necessarily lying.

Social media tends to jump on details as fast as they come out, which is not great given the so called "fog of war."

Remember when Reddit 'found' the Boston marathon bomber?

No one is going to sue some random internet commenter for libel, and the random person doesn't have an institutional reputation at stake if they back a story that turns out to be false later on.

In theory, large media orgs do have to worry about those things, though standards have slipped a lot recently.

So even without intentionally lying, social media isn't the most reliable place for information. There are exceptions (the lab leak theory was widely embraced online when mainstream press was presenting it as an open and shut case initially, for example). But the odds are generally not in social media's favor about any early information on a topic, whether things like school shootings (very often there's reports of multiple gunmen when there's actually just one) or world events.

Also, technically I don't think anyone is saying it's Hamas. It's being attributed to a different group.

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soggy_kitty 2 points 3 years ago

That's a great comment and mostly true, in general I should apply less weighting to sources of information I find on social media and that includes Lemmy. Although I know the media like to lie they wouldn't intentionally feed false information at a scandalous level such as this.

I appreciate the answer friend

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Cockmaster6000 65 points 3 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if this was true, but it's pertinent to wait for more information rather than the word of a Hamas spokesperson.

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HappycamperNZ 33 points 3 years ago

I don't know why a comment waiting for more info is downvoted.

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Chariotwheel 7 points 3 years ago

Why we're just hooligans who only belong to one of two teams instead of being able to worry about the innocents on both sides that suffer the blood thirst of the scum above them in the hierarchy.

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hotdaniel 1 point 3 years ago

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photonic_sorcerer 1 point 3 years ago

I had to leave the lemmy.ml community because my comment calling out a tankie spewing this kind of shit got removed. They want to build their echo chamber, i say let 'em. At least here, the reasonable voices get through.

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Cockmaster6000 1 point 3 years ago

It's wild over there. A bunch of my comments got deleted and I received an instance wide ban. Meanwhile posts from hexbears full of misinformation or calls for violence get up voted to the top

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Lemmyboi -1 points 3 years ago

Because it's not the hamas spokesmen as hamas only has one official spokesman and it for just announcing military operations.

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Kben 6 points 3 years ago

Heres a link from the bbc,i dont think they are members of hamas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/...

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luthis 18 points 3 years ago

From the article:

Israel's military says 'a hospital is not an IDF target'

The BBC's international editor Jeremy Bowen says he has received a statement in a phone call from the spokesperson’s office of the Israel Defence Forces, reacting to what Palestinian officials have said was an Israeli strike on the Al Ahli Hospital in Gaza.

The statement says "a hospital is a highly sensitive building and is not an IDF target."

"The IDF is investigating the source of the explosion and as always is prioritising accuracy and reliability."

"We urge everyone to proceed with caution when reporting unverified claims of a terrorist organisation."

So there's some fuckery going on. Either Israel did it by accident, or on purpose and covering up, or something else.

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Pipoca 7 points 3 years ago

https://www.timesofisrael.com/...

Rockets occasionally misfire and don't make it to their destination. Israel is claiming that's what happened - that a Hamas rocket fell well short of its intended target.

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hotdaniel -10 points 3 years ago

How TF do you read that and end up at the conclusion, Israel is up to no good! You realize you're defending a literal terrorist organization known for bombing its citizens? Who stands to gain from bombing a hospital? Israel gains... universal condemnation. Hamas gains... the entire Arab community uniting and calling for death to Israel.

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luthis 8 points 3 years ago

Who stands to gain from bombing a hospital?

That's why I'm saying there's some fuckery going on. I'm not putting it past Israel to bomb a hospital at this point, but it seems like a very stupid unjustifiable move. That 'something else' I mentioned could be Hamas bombing the hospital and then blaming Israel.

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HappycamperNZ 3 points 3 years ago

Which is why if it was them and an accident (or deliberate) it would be covered up. Things happen in war and the narrative that results from actions is as important as supply chains.

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FUCKRedditMods 0 points 3 years ago

Umm, maybe you missed the memo. Everyone killed in gaza has been a hamas militant, and everyone upset about genocide and war crimes is a hamas propagandist.

Those reuters reporters the IDF blew up? Obviously hamas… it’s pretty straightforward.

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hotdaniel -4 points 3 years ago

That's the best part about this community. You don't have to wait! Just blame Israel and call for their death!

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Grant_M 50 points 3 years ago

Jihads misfire, blow up a Gaza hospital, blame it on Israel and people believe it.

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PersnickityPenguin 17 points 3 years ago

On top of it, the hospital wasn't even blown up.

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c0mbatbag3l 11 points 3 years ago

A three foot wide crater out front, yeah. Definitely looks like the detonation of either a very small bomb or something that didn't explode as intended. Definitely not a fucking JDAM crater, that's for sure.

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bigkix 1 point 3 years ago

Wait, you don't believe what islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization says right after killing 1000 Israeli civilians?
If we can't believe them, who can we believe?

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BigDill99 -19 points 3 years ago

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Gargantu8 8 points 3 years ago

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BigDill99 15 points 3 years ago

"Appears as though"..."information still being collected". Wow, so confident.

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SCB 3 points 3 years ago

Here's a post with the actual analysis, including IJ fighters admitting it

https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-768942

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soggy_kitty 5 points 3 years ago

I'm actually so confused as to what actually happened. I literally don't get the narrative because either story is believable

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Grant_M 1 point 3 years ago

Hamas terrorists brutally murdered at least 5 Canadians and are currently holding/torturing several more as hostages in Gaza. Is that also BS?

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BigDill99 -1 points 3 years ago

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Grant_M 6 points 3 years ago

Israel DID NOT blow up that hospital. The terrorists misfired.
I want ALL Hamas dead for mass murdering Canadians.

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BlueGerald -2 points 3 years ago

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blitzkrieg -40 points 3 years ago

Source for your bullshit propaganda?

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Ghostalmedia 24 points 3 years ago

Biden said that he believes the US intelligence that points to it being an errant rocket coming from the Palestinian side of the fence.

That said, at this point, is anyone going to believe what anyone says?

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arekkusu 2 points 3 years ago

Just like the US intelligence that told Bush there were WMDs in Iraq?

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100_percent_a_bot 3 points 3 years ago

Call me crazy but I'm inclined to believe US intelligence over the health minister of Hamas. Yet I will wait for the UN report that will be conducted to know for certain.

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Fades -3 points 3 years ago

The difference is Bush was a lying republican war monger

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dx1 0 points 3 years ago

US and Israel have basically been in lockstep for decades (despite the whole supposed Obama/Netanyahu row), this isn't really worth anything.

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Ghostalmedia 7 points 3 years ago

And it’s not like Hamas or Hezbollah have a trustworthy reputation.

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Fades 0 points 3 years ago

US and Israel have basically been in lockstep for decades (despite the whole supposed Obama/Netanyahu row), this isn’t really worth anything.

Absolutely NOT true. The US pressured Israel into allowing aid to flow into gaza, turn on other necessities, etc. They have condemned the Hamas terrorist attack that brutally targeted civilians (akin to our 9/11) and thus the US 'stood' with Israel in that regard, understanding exactly what that feels like.

Israel's war cabinet on Wednesday approved the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza from Egypt after pressure from the U.S. and other countries.

https://www.axios.com/...

The story doesn't end there:

President Biden warned Israel in an interview aired on Sunday not to reoccupy Gaza, his first significant public effort to restrain America’s ally in the wake of the Hamas assault that killed more than 1,300 people, including at least 29 Americans.

Mr. Biden has offered staunch support for Israel since the Oct. 7 attack and refused to criticize Israel for its retaliatory siege of Gaza, the coastal enclave controlled by Hamas, even as U.N. officials have warned of a humanitarian crisis there. But in the new interview, he cautioned against a full-scale occupation of Gaza.

“I think it’d be a big mistake,” Mr. Biden told “60 Minutes” on CBS in a conversation taped on Thursday and aired on Sunday night. “Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again.” But “taking out the extremists” there, he added, “is a necessary requirement.”

https://www.nytimes.com/...

The U.S. will send $100 million in aid for humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, President Joe Biden said on Wednesday. “This money will support more than 1 million displaced in conflict affected Palestinians, including emergency needs in Gaza,” Biden said Wednesday during a speech in Tel Aviv.

https://www.politico.com/...

but go ahead, just claim us = Israel, you clearly don't give a fuck about reality so why not?

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Grant_M 19 points 3 years ago

Joined two days ago to exclusively advocate for Hamas terrorists. Looks suspicious.

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blitzkrieg -10 points 3 years ago

No advocation for Hamas from my side.

I simply chose to join the Fediverse (Lemmy in particular as I really liked Reddit) to have freedom of speech.

Over to you, Hamas doesn't exist in the west bank, so why are people there getting killed?

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mwguy 5 points 3 years ago

This event happened in the Gaza Strip. And Hamas' exists in the West Bank, they just don't rule there.

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Prandom_returns -2 points 3 years ago

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Gargantu8 11 points 3 years ago

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blitzkrieg -5 points 3 years ago

You believe it because the US said so? The same country that lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to invade them and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

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mwguy 7 points 3 years ago

Because they said so, and it was independently verifiable and they brought surveillance that confirmed it. And Gaza clearly lied about the size, location, and scope of the "bombing". And there's multiple videos of it.

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Gargantu8 -2 points 3 years ago

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Dremor 1 point 3 years ago

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erranto 29 points 3 years ago

They have no shame on deflecting the blame

It must be a very precise and fortunate failure for Israel that an enemy rocket failed and landed exactly on a hospital and killed hundreds of Palestinians they deem unworthy of humanity.

The western world has blood on its hand by supporting such a criminal state

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nbafantest 29 points 3 years ago

They've literally launched like 10,000 rockets.

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erranto -5 points 3 years ago

Artisanal water pipe rockets that can't kill more than 10 people or bring down one apartment floor, can't be the same misfired rocket that killed 500 people all at once. they just don't have the capability for that much damage.

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jarfil 4 points 3 years ago

killed 500 people all at once

And destroyed 80% of a hospital... or did it?

All the proof shows a parking lot with fewer than 10 cars on fire, surrounded by a hospital that's still standing and usable, and maybe a dozen dead (there might be more, there is no proof of them yet).

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Elderos 4 points 3 years ago

Have you seen the picture of the aftermath? It t literally burned 10 cars in a parking lot. It certainly doesn't look like something that could kill 500 people, especially since it didn't even touch the building. Really looks like a small misfired rocket to me.

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SCB 5 points 3 years ago

https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-768942

I look forward to your retraction and condemnation of those firing rockets

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Gargantu8 -1 points 3 years ago

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mayo -3 points 3 years ago

Block em!

Block block block :)

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CommanderM2192 -18 points 3 years ago

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erranto 2 points 3 years ago

When we point to your crimes against humanity, you tell us to look elsewhere. you must have iron guts to stomach what Israel committed today while keeping a straight face

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CommanderM2192 3 points 3 years ago

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erranto 1 point 3 years ago

An Israeli gov Spokesperson admitted in a tweet that it was meant to target Hamas but landed on the the hospital. he then deleted the tweet. a few screenshots are circulating still. but doesn't constitute full proof yet

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blazeknave 0 points 3 years ago

Looking forward to all those apologies from the triggered antisemitic egg faced cunts but I'm not holding my breath

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ilmagico -1 points 3 years ago

Even without knowing who did it, if Israel had stopped occupying Palestinian land, killing and displacing civilians as it's been doing for decades, we probably wouldn't be here today, or at least, maybe I could feel sorry for them. I'm not justifying Hamas' recent attack on civilians, it was horrible, but Israel had it coming.

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Alwaysfallingupyup -4 points 3 years ago

FINALLY ! someone with common sense. Thank you

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ilmagico 1 point 3 years ago

Who is funding that government exactly? Certainly not the USA and "the west", who prefer to fund Israel instead: a country doing exactly the same, but on a larger scale, and calling different, more socially acceptable names (e.g. "casualties" vs killings). Two wrongs don't make a right.

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Ranvier 12 points 3 years ago

The biggest financial backer of the Palestinian Authority is "the west." Unless you don't consider Europe part of the west. The United States is also a substantial financial backer of the Palestinians, though not as much as Europe. About 64% of pledged international funds come from "the west" with only 20% coming from Arab sources.

Not arguing that the US doesn't give far more money to Israel which is of course true, but I think with these complex situations it's important to be precise about facts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

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CommanderM2192 -3 points 3 years ago

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ilmagico 7 points 3 years ago

What I see is, two terrorists doing terror attacks on each others. Some countries fund one terrorist, others fund the other terrorist. One just happen to have a lot more funding. If only they would make a peace deal ... ah yeah, they tried that, didn't work ...

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merthyr1831 20 points 3 years ago

Im going crazy at people's reaction to a hospital being bombed during the largest aerial bombardment from Israel (A country known for bombing hospitals) into Gaza, this hospital was supposedly just meant to have exploded thanks to a weapon dozens of times more powerful than anything Hamas has ever had in its arsenal.

I'm actually losing my fucking mind at these comments

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soggy_kitty 12 points 3 years ago

I genuinely don't understand what you're suggesting happened. There's an incredible amount of ambiguity from the average commenter to where I can't tell if they believe it's an isreali strike or a failed Hamas rocket

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merthyr1831 -2 points 3 years ago

Some of the highest voted comments here are in total agreement with the Israeli narrative despite total lack of evidence.

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soggy_kitty 10 points 3 years ago

Are they? I can't work out if it's sarcasm or people being genuinely direct.

Fuck I've lost touch with internet etiquette and nuances to where I can't trust a fucking thing I read anymore. I'm sitting here with my pants down not understanding anything

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trash80 12 points 3 years ago

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MaxVoltage 1 point 3 years ago

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MaxVoltage -2 points 3 years ago

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip -- A massive blast rocked a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded and other Palestinians seeking shelter Tuesday, killing hundreds of people, the Hamas-run Health Ministry said. Hamas blamed an Israeli airstrike, while the Israeli military said the hospital was hit by a rocket misfired by Palestinian militants. The Gaza Health Ministry said at least 500 people w

they changed the whole article

i clicked because i figured they had

go to reddit and see the double think

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anteaters -4 points 3 years ago

As he said he is losing his mind. Because it clashes with reality and he cannot accept anything that goes against his firm convictions.

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soggy_kitty 2 points 3 years ago

It's so interesting to me that even your comment is ambiguous, it's like everyone on lemmy has evolved to not make themselves clear to what their opinion is

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anteaters -2 points 3 years ago

Oh I did not mean that to be ambigious. To make it clear: I think the user is a dumbass who gets upset because people don't believe that Israel attacked the hospital but that it was caused by the "defenders". Which is something he cannot accept because in his mind Israel must be at fault.

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dx1 8 points 3 years ago

I spent most of today trying to get to the bottom of this. I don't have the answer.

On some level I'm just like, what frigging difference does it even make, it's all caused by this idiotic conflict. Give the Palestinians some of the land back, arrange a change in power on both sides, release the hostages, get this god damn thing over with already. Fuck Hamas, fuck genocidal Netanyahu, you leave it up to them and these people will be killing each other forever.

Where is the vision to bring this apartheid/conflict/whatever to an end FOREVER?

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Fades 0 points 3 years ago

what frigging difference does it even make, it’s all caused by this idiotic conflict.

it makes a big difference because if (FUCKING IF) this was a missile strike from Israel (very much not looking like the case), this gives the rest of us a more powerful lever to apply pressure on Israel. Biden has already forced them to allow aid to Gaza, but we can do more. NetanYAHOO is a fucking war criminal but he ain't Putin (yet), I don't see him thumbing his nose to the Hague and continue to cheer on more war crimes.

That's why this is so important, if this truly was a missile strike on a hospital, it is direct escalation that 100% indefensible, and will also give more legitimacy to progressive Jews everywhere that are condemning this war.

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JethPeter 1 point 3 years ago

I think what is left out these days is nuance and a judgement of individual actions. Hamas is a horror show, hands down. Israel has a horrific expansionist agenda. It's not clean and neat. We don't need to cheer a side on all occasions. Let's condemn atrocities and organisations with atrocious actions actions (Hamas and Israel) and push for fair and equitable outcomes for the innocent citizens on both sides.

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100_percent_a_bot 2 points 3 years ago

If Israel is known to bomb hospitals, why did Hamas put their headquarters in the biggest hospital in Gaza? Isn't that kind of counterproductive?

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kaonashi 0 points 3 years ago

Yea, first they had their propagandists celebrate it, then they said it was shot down by iron dome, then they said it was a malfunction. They said it came from a cemetery next to the hospital, then changed to say it came from south Gaza. The only difference between this incident and the thousands of other strikes is that it garnered more sympathy in the west.

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fosforus 19 points 3 years ago

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hassanmckusick -5 points 3 years ago

Ohh wow a source that is in no way authoritative! I sure hope you went and posted this everywhere!

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breakfastmtn 11 points 3 years ago

GeoConfirmed is well-respected and they work closely with Bellingcat who are probably the OSINT gold standard, having exposed Russia downing flight MH17, the Russian operatives following Alexei Nevalny before his attempted assassination, and numerous Russian illegals operations, among many other investigations.

If multiple investigators independently concluded that the rocket was fired from Gaza and lost control before hitting the hospital, the likelihood that you'll find credible investigators coming to a different conclusion is very small.

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workerONE -3 points 3 years ago

Israel hit this same hospital with rockets on Saturday, injuring four staff members, according to the hospital, prompting the Most Rev. Justin Welby, the archbishop of Canterbury, to call for the reversal of Israel’s order for Palestinians to evacuate from the north of Gaza ahead of a planned ground offensive" https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/...

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SeaJ 7 points 3 years ago

The barrage of rockets were live streamed with timestamps. One does appear to veer off compared to the others that lines up with the time of the explosion.

However, the Israeli military did say there was a drone operation in the area but denied any of them were involved.

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kaonashi 1 point 3 years ago

Israeli strikes hit every minute, more so at night, the fact that some rockets were launched soon before isn't in any way definitive.

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fosforus 1 point 3 years ago

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Wilshire 18 points 3 years ago

Link to the original article:

https://apnews.com/...

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Blackbeard 15 points 3 years ago

.

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mayo 9 points 3 years ago

Getting tired of the pro-Hamas lemmy position.

If you actually watch the footage of this attack you can see pretty clearly it's a failed Hamas rocket.

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SeaJ 8 points 3 years ago

Definitely not pro-Hamas here. There is video of a rocket that veers off that does seem to match up with the timing. The Israeli military has also said there were drone operations in the area but denied they were involved.

It does appear like this was likely Islamist militants but there is still a possibility that it was Israel. We will need more info to get a better picture of the situation.

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mayo 8 points 3 years ago

You're probably right I was just being reactive.

Time for a break.

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SeaJ 3 points 3 years ago

No worries. I added an update blurb but Boost is not letting me update the headline with the new info.

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generalpotato 5 points 3 years ago

Calling out Israel for its blatant disregard for human life isn’t a “pro-Hamas” stance.

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mayo 0 points 3 years ago

The only thing I'll agree on about this conflict is that it brings out the worst in people

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kaonashi 2 points 3 years ago

Not wanting to see a heavily populated civilian area carpet bombed to supposedly target a faction that makes up 1% of the population doesn't make you pro-terrorism; quite the opposite.

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GekkoState 1 point 3 years ago

Very few on here is pro hamas. The rest of us are just trying to show you how genocidal Israel has been to Gaza and Palestinians. Yet you seem to be drinking the the right wing kool-aid that Israel is a saint.

Go to 9gag where your racist & bigotry will fit right in.

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mayo 5 points 3 years ago

Like I said.. this conflict brings out the worst in people.

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workerONE -1 points 3 years ago

Were the rockets that hit the hospital on Saturday also failed Hamas rockets? I'm just asking, feel free to say yes. https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/...

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Knightfox 4 points 3 years ago

I think most people aren't going to be moved or convinced by that source. I would recommend finding something a bit more substantial.

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workerONE 3 points 3 years ago

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...

"The al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City was also struck on Saturday and had braced to be a key support in the war"

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Knightfox 3 points 3 years ago

Much better source

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ApexHunter -2 points 3 years ago

There is currently only one verified video of the rocket strike. At best you can discern the direction the rocket came from, not who fired it. The magnitude of the explosion and the direction it came from makes it more likely to be an Israeli rocket, but that isn't conclusive.

Everything else you've seen is fake/propaganda.

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agent_flounder 6 points 3 years ago

Where are all the people talking about how the Israeli government minimizes casualties with precision strikes?

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hotdaniel 2 points 3 years ago

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aniki 1 point 3 years ago

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WalrusDragonOnABike 1 point 3 years ago

I've seen a thread where someone suggested building a canal through the whole region and a replying saying to glass the whole region. Granted, they wanted both sides wiped out, because somehow a group of people within each region committing violence justifies nuking the entire region?

Not exactly common sentiments either: out of 100s of comments, those are the only two I've seen along those lines. No clue where they were and I'd they may have been removed by mods, making them harder to find (but mod logs do exist), so unfortunately I can't link to them.

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hotdaniel -1 points 3 years ago

https://hexbear.net/comment/4116270

13 up votes, 3 down votes

https://hexbear.net/comment/4116194

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Satelllliiiiiiiteeee 2 points 3 years ago

Two hexbear posts is the best you could find? You do know that most of the popular lemmy instances have defederated from them, right?

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assassin_aragorn 5 points 3 years ago

Edit: I'm questioning the veracity of this myself, disregard.

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SeaJ 24 points 3 years ago

Let's not spread rumors without any proof. If you have proof, show it.

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Lemmyboi 4 points 3 years ago

The IDF spokesman himself https://twitter.com/...

They literally have a dedicated team for social media engineering

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HurlingDurling -1 points 3 years ago

If true, then this needs to go higher

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assassin_aragorn 2 points 3 years ago

Yeah agreed, since then I'm even questioning if it's legitimate.

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clot27 3 points 3 years ago

This is fake news, no hospital was bombed instead it was parking lot...

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Dremor 1 point 3 years ago

Which was the hospital parking. It is still in the hospital perimeter and part of it.

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imrichyouknow 1 point 3 years ago

This is fake news.

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jordanlund 1 point 3 years ago

Unclear if the headline is editorialized or simply changed after posting, still it's mismatched. Locked and removed.

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kqr -1 points 3 years ago

https://www.reddit.com/... so what's this?

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SeaJ 8 points 3 years ago

It's a journalist who was drafted. Not sure I would call them a spokesperson for Israel.

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Maturin 13 points 3 years ago

"A journalist who was drafted" https://www.hnaftali.com : "Hananya has been working for Prime Minister Netanyahu in his digital team for the past 5 years."

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SeaJ 7 points 3 years ago

I stand corrected. The search I did on him did not even turn up his page. Bad DuckDuckGo.

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Maturin 3 points 3 years ago

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Fades 4 points 3 years ago

Hananya Naftali is a leading Israeli Jewish influencer and human rights activist in the fight

he's a goddamn youtuber, and you're acting like this is an official statement by IDF?? Yeah, he's on some ridiculous "digital team" for netanyahoo the war criminal doesn't mean what his dumb team posts is ultimate truth, this ain't the gotcha you think it is it's just a moronic attempt to stay ahead of a narrative they don't have control over

additionally, no missile strike crater (sure as fuck ain't no JDAM), video footage shows it blowing mid-air... Is that how the israeli airforce does things now?

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corsicanguppy -3 points 3 years ago

Hate is the reason that some snipers kill MSF doctors clearly in view and wearing easily recognizable branding. Hate is why this 'accidental misfire' killed more doctors, and patients as well.

The Jews I know do not hate people like this. These people are not good Jews, and I worry they resemble more the monster they fled with each passing year.

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JoMiran -3 points 3 years ago

ahem

WAR CRIME!!!

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ZenkorSoraz -4 points 3 years ago

https://youtu.be/H6yQOs93Cgg?si=flf4wdQiRcyz3aaZ It's a fake

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PipedLinkBot 2 points 3 years ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

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theodewere -8 points 3 years ago

show everyone how cruel you can be

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