You choose what instance you are on. Quit the pseudointellectual whining.

3 years ago by mrpants to c/main

No server operator needs to federate with you.
No server operator needs to tolerate things they don't want on their instance.
No user of an instance needs to personally curate their own extensive never ending blocklist of users and channels they don't want to see.

Quit your pseudo-intellectual whining and choose what instance(s) work for you. If you think regularly interacting with shit content somehow helps you stay out of an echo chamber then go ahead and make a second account on those garbage instances full of hateful people. Then you can read both the decent servers and the trash ones and be the fedora wearing ackshually right fair and balanced uber nerd you always wanted to be.

Edit: The huge number of upvotes on this post compared to the low numbers on the whiney imposers' posts is proof of exactly where this community places its priorities.

burrp 143 points 3 years ago

Whinging about whinging. The spirit of Reddit lives on.

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boopeditandnow 39 points 3 years ago

"The Spirit of Reddit"

Nailed it.

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Thteven 14 points 3 years ago

That's fucking hideous, thank you.

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gloriousspearfish 12 points 3 years ago

What the hell is up with the right thumb?

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hoi_polloi 18 points 3 years ago

AI is going on.

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coffee_dick 6 points 3 years ago

Yeah looks kinda eerie....or is that...eary

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cyanarchy 3 points 3 years ago

Thank you, I absolutely hate it. I'm going to go vomit into my own eyes now.

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FrostKing 2 points 3 years ago

IDK that feels more discord mod esque to me xD

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TankCrimes 1 point 3 years ago

Congratulations

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squaresinger 1 point 3 years ago

What is that?

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sugar_in_your_tea 1 point 2 years ago

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themanaconda 16 points 3 years ago

We're already at peak reddit replacement if we have whining in the comments about the contents of another post whining about users. I feel so at home here.

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kluevo 1 point 3 years ago

Whining about comments whining about a post whining about users whining about defederation.

My brain can't handle this

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sugar_in_your_tea 1 point 2 years ago

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mrpants 10 points 3 years ago

😂

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meldroc 88 points 3 years ago

According to some of the posts in here, apparently, wanting to ban Nazis from your instance and refusing to rebroadcast their toxic shit is being "entitled"...

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pythonoob 8 points 3 years ago

This makes the Nazis sound like a bunch of Karen's lol

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Djeece 7 points 3 years ago

I would definitely expect the Venn diagram of neo-nazis and Karens who give trouble to retail workers to look a lot like a circle.

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krackalot 3 points 3 years ago

Sometimes it's a circle, sometimes it's a Mickey Mouse hat on Ron DeSantis' head.

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samus12345 1 point 3 years ago

They are. It's a big part of authoritarians in general.

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blackbrook 7 points 3 years ago

Nothing wrong with feeling entitled to tell nazis to fuck off.

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aski3252 72 points 3 years ago

Completely agree, this whole entitled attitude about "we left reddit because censoreship hurr durr, now u do same thing, you have to do what we tell you" is really annoying..

Nobody is censoring you, you are free to join and visit whatever instances you want and watch their content.. You can even host your own instance where you federate with whoever you want, you have free access to the code.. But nobody is forced to host ANY content they don't want on the server THEY themselves pay for..

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riskable 35 points 3 years ago

we left reddit because censoreship hurr durr

The people leaving Reddit because of censorship did so long ago. These dissatisfied/censored people have a new home anyway... They can view child porn, people being brutally tortured/murdered, and make all the threats of violence they want on Twitter now. They just have to be careful not to insult the, "free speech absolutist" dictator or he'll have them banned.

The mass migration today is because of dissatisfaction with Reddit's decision to end 3rd party apps and specifically, the way in which they handled it. The dishonesty, the heavy-handed dictator-like seizure of protesting communities, the complete disregard for accessibility/moderation tools, etc.

To claim that people are leaving Reddit "because of censorship" isn't just missing the point, it's flat out wrong.

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anteaters 14 points 3 years ago

They went to the cesspit voat and that went under like a turd. I wonder where they all went after that, probably back to Reddit or Discord.

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aski3252 9 points 3 years ago

I wonder where they all went after that

Gab is still around and I think there are a lot of private discord communities as well.

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Someology 3 points 3 years ago

Lemmy is the first Reddit alternative most recent refugees have tried out, but it is clear that many existing Lemmy users do not want their platform to grow.

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Someology 2 points 3 years ago

There needs to be some clear guidance on this for newbies. As it is, you have to stumble across scraps of random discussions to learn about defederation and partial federation politics. You generally do this after you e already spent time on an account. Seriously, how is a person supposed to know what instance to choose up front?

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meldroc 68 points 3 years ago

The people screaming about free speech for bigots & fascists seem to neglect the free speech of the instance owners and admins.

They're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. Paying for bandwidth and servers. Donating their time to create the software, work out the kinks, and moderate the communities so we don't strangle each other.

From their perspective: Would you want to use your money and time to rebroadcast Nazism or similarly toxic ideology? Because that's what they're being asked, and most of them say "HELL NO!" When the chuds are demanding that these people rebroadcast such crap, it's like they're asking these admins to do a Hitler salute with them.

This is their space. They have free speech rights too. That's what curation is, free speech. You send a message by the choice of messages you rebroadcast or refuse to rebroadcast.

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RomanRoy 29 points 3 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

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crowlemo -16 points 3 years ago

That can be used by any authoritarian claiming to be the greatest good.

It's great to bully and censor but inevitably ends in subjugation.

That's the types that want this end up in very small circles or simply agreeing with whatever authority sells.

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Djeece 4 points 3 years ago

As long as you have clear boundaries as to what's acceptable or not, a population with critical thinking skills will always be able to tell what's going on.

I had this debate with a friend a while back. He said we should tolerate nazi flags because "what if the government decides the pride flag is a hateful flag". Well, the nazi flag (at least coloquially) stands for "Kill all jews", while the pride flag stands for "Be proud of your sexual orientation and gender identity". One of these passes the hate speech/incitement test, the other doesn't.

There just needs to be consistent and well thought out rules in place. If it's the case, I'm not scared of authoritarians using the paradox of tolerance to their advantage because it's so transparent.

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mnemonicmonkeys 3 points 3 years ago

The people screaming about free speech for bigots & fascists seem to neglect the free speech of the instance owners and admins.

This is a pretty farcical argument, because the instance admins set things up specifically so that the instance users can discuss and vote on what the instance does.

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haltowork -45 points 3 years ago

That's what curation is, free speech.

What in the everloving hell is this awful take. No, curation is not free speech. Nor does it need to be. No one actually cares about free speech.

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Miqo 31 points 3 years ago

Content moderation absolutely is a form of free speech. They get to decide who to associate with and what ideals to rebroadcast with their own equipment. They aren't government entities and do reserve the right to express their individual beliefs. If you have a problem with that, find a better-suited instance for your own personal beliefs, or host your own.

If you want further reading on the subject, here's a well-written post that explains the positive relationship between more active content moderation and "freer" speech.

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haltowork -1 points 3 years ago

Amazing.

"I'm censoring people so that I can promote free speech!"

Just admit that it's not free speech. That's just a roundabout way to justify your decision when there's no justification required.

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Cracks_InTheWalls 1 point 3 years ago

Edit: Cracks had Agora on the brain and applied it where it wasn't necessary.

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meat_popsicle 12 points 3 years ago

If I own a wall and allow people to post signs on it, I can choose to remove whatever signs I deem inappropriate. The creator can put their signs up somewhere else and I’m under no obligation to use my property to broadcast their message if I choose not to.

Nothing stops you from using your own resources to broadcast your message. Be the change you want to see in the world.

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DevTNT 10 points 3 years ago

Last time I read this it was musk on Twitter, days before censoring electoral messages in Turkey

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haltowork 2 points 3 years ago

cool story bro, why do you think it's relevant?

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Fylkir 2 points 3 years ago

So you're saying I shouldn't be able to choose who to allow onto my server?

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haltowork -1 points 3 years ago

Not sure how you got to that answer. Censorship isn't free speech.

No one has to support free speech. Just own it instead of making up rubbish like "I'm actually censoring to promote free speech"

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Fylkir 1 point 3 years ago

Would you consider it acceptable for an instance owner to ban advertisements?

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HiddenLayer5 51 points 3 years ago

Reminder that defederation is an explicit feature implemented into fediverse platforms. It is meant to be used as the instance sees fit. The notion that you can never defederate with anyone defeats the purpose of the fediverse, we might as well make one huge centralized platform in that case.

No other instance owes you a federation to your instance. The fediverse's whole philosophy is that instances get to configure both who they federate with and who federates with them.

Finally, there is a certain irony in the people screaming "freedom" and "free speech" telling admins of private instances what they can and can't do with their own platform.

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amju_wolf 2 points 3 years ago

I agree in principle but if it ends up with defederation-by-default, or something similarly restrictive, you'll kill the whole point of the federation and we can just go back to Reddit. IMO it should be used very sparingly (mostly to combat full on spam kinda like with email) and largely let the users themselves decide.

OP rants about seeing garbage from garbage instances but if you actually subscribe to the communities you want, you'll only see comments from those "garbage instances", and there can still be decent people with interesting viewpoints on there.

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auntbutters 1 point 3 years ago

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auntbutters -7 points 3 years ago

That's all true. I do also think that there needs to be a certain amount of built-in stability in order for federated communities to grow. People are less likely to stick around if there is a high risk that their favorite communities becomes fractured into isolated instances.

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dnick 9 points 3 years ago

If that was the argument presented I doubt there would be any argument to begin with. Saying ‘hey, you might not want to break connections with site for no reason so your users aren’t surprised or worry that they…so on and so forth’ could be met with a ‘hey, thanks for the advice’ and everyone would have moved on. Accusing them of censorship and attacking someone else’s freedom of speech because you don’t think a personal decision they made was justified because other people utilizing their platform expected something else is a completely different animal.

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samus12345 7 points 3 years ago

The onus is on the user to keep track of what the instance they're on is doing. Beehaw behaved in a manner that I don't agree with, so I chose not to sign up there. Lemmy.world has so far defederated from instances I would also choose to defederate from. If the admins ever start defederating willy-nilly without good cause, I'll choose another instance.

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Fylkir 2 points 3 years ago

I do also think that there needs to be a certain amount of built-in stability in order for federated communities to grow.

I would argue that the Fediverse is inherently more stable than other platforms. The big platforms are defined by inconsistency. If you don't like it, you can take your ball and go home and that's your only choice. The Fediverse lets you take your ball anywhere you want. You don't even need to change apps

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Someology 48 points 3 years ago

I knew nothing about inter-Lemmy-instance-politics when I made my account. I simply made it on a server that was actually not SO overwhelmed that it couldn't make new accounts. I would imagine the same is true of many new users of late.

My Lemmy exerience: We're (heavily) advertised to on Reddit during the pre-blackout mess that we should try Lemmy. I go to try Lemmy. Server is broken. Server is broken. Server is not allowing new users. Server is not allowing new users. Ah! This one actually functions, so I can try Lemmy! Start following and posting, and finding nice communities. Then start finding out that some of these only federate in one direction, so I'm posting to people on another instance who can't see it, because of Lemmy admin bickering and politics. Great, now I need to start over with a new account again, just when I was feeling settled in? Leaves a bad taste, and I was lucky enough to not end up on one of the MOST hated instances.

I hate politics. You can't escape them anywhere involving humans.

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moozogew 19 points 3 years ago

This isn't a corporation advertising to get your business it's a collective movement of people working to create a better internet, I totally understand you not liking politics but the reality of this world is that politics is important - the people runnning instances are generally doing it with their own time and money simply because they believe in the importance of the project, of course these are going to be people with strong principles.

Personally I think having a complex ecosystem is going to be a great thing when it's had time to emerge and settle but yeah for now it's all a bit new and up in the air but that's part of the fun

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Someology 2 points 3 years ago

But we need guidance for users to choose an instance before they create an account. Right now, people come in blind, into a minefield of politics. It is very frustrating to walk into that mess and then get reprimanded if you mention it. There is no warning for new users.

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theangryseal 2 points 3 years ago

Yeah, Christ. It didn’t even occur to me that this was a thing.

Good luck to all of you noobs. Wish me luck.

I’m still confused at this point.

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sugar_in_your_tea 1 point 2 years ago

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SexualPolytope 47 points 3 years ago

asks people to quit whining

whines

Anyway, I don't really care about defederation enough to switch instances. But even if I did, you can't deny that it's annoying. When Lemmy introduces some nice way of migrating to other instances with userdata intact, then your rant will make sense. Without that, I don't think it's wrong if people complain.

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julietOscarEcho 26 points 3 years ago

Most people complaining have two weeks of user data...

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Martineski 22 points 3 years ago

And during those 2 weeks I made 500 comments and almost 400 posts. Not picking sides, just saying that I'm tied to my instance now at this point.

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BigBootyBoy 19 points 3 years ago

You are single handedly keeping the entirety of lemmy alive

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Martineski 19 points 3 years ago

I'm not tied to my instance I AM MY INSTANCE

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god 2 points 3 years ago

Lol sameish. I don't have that much of an attachment to my past though. Jump around, see it all, share stuff, delete account and repeat. Your friends will know where to find you.

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mnemonicmonkeys 4 points 3 years ago

I'd like to point out that most people on both sides of the defederation debate are like that. And this instance has been up for months with only LemmyGrad blocked

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carbon_based 2 points 3 years ago

Two weeks.

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god 1 point 3 years ago

New instance added to the block mix 👌 pumping up those numbers.

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pineapple 43 points 3 years ago

I feel like these are just growing pains. I mean I'm sure people will argue about to defederate or not for as long as the fediverse exists, but I imagine it'll become background noise as people get accustomed to what the fediverse is and isn't.

The fact that this level of choice exists, both for operaters and for users is a big part what makes these places stand apart from reddit and it's ilk.

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riskable 5 points 3 years ago

Some of us are old enough to remember IRC networks splitting up and the Fediverse de-federation drama feels exactly the same. It is an aspect of human nature that cannot be solved with technical solutions.

It is completely normal for groups of humans to split up and segregate themselves from each other with some individuals belonging to multiple groups simultaneously. It's how we evolved and it's how the Fediverse (and whatever comes after) will evolve going forward.

Every instance is like a political party without exclusivity. You can belong to multiple at once. Rather than working on identity migration my opinion is that they should instead come up with a way for people to login to each other's instances with different accounts. Just like I can login to Disqus or StackExchange with my Google account I should be able to login to Beehaw.org with my programming.dev account and vice versa.

This would be very convenient from an end-user's perspective since they could access posts and comments on the instance where they live and links to communities could be handled in an absolute, universal format and it wouldn't even matter (from the end user's perspective). Because if they loaded /c/whatever on some Lemmy instance or /m/whatever on a Kbin instance they'd still be posting using their Beehaw.org account (or wherever they have an account). Links to external communities could just load those external communities and it wouldn't need so much data to be federated between all instances (e.g. comments and votes).

In regards to moderation: Even if Beehaw.org banned my account from posts/comments that doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not it should accept my account from a login perspective (it's better than having banned users browsing anonymously--because then the instance owners will know they're there). It would also allow moderators at Beehaw.org (or any other instance) to ban specific users from other instances much more easily because those users would likely stay at that other instance rather than have multiple accounts anywhere and everywhere that would also need to be banned.

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Ajen 4 points 3 years ago

I'm not sure it's entirely just growing pains. Some of the people arguing for defederation seem to be arguing in bad faith. On the other hand, it seems like they are uniting the community against defederation, which is ultimately a good thing.

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taladar 7 points 3 years ago

A lot of the people arguing to never defederate are the types who smell of "but who is going to read my extremist views if you all defederate my instance, I already got banned everywhere else".

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bogdugg 40 points 3 years ago

I wonder if people would be interested in a "lurker" instance that disables comments/posts/etc. entirely. A "read-only" instance for the people who really hate the idea of being defederated, lol.

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SenatorBumCuckets 10 points 3 years ago

That's fucking brilliant, I'm going to try to make one

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The_Picard_Maneuver 4 points 3 years ago

Yes please. I'd rather curate my own and not risk missing content because I didn't realize that some instance admins have beef or are too trigger happy with defederating.

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fossilesque 8 points 3 years ago

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The_Picard_Maneuver 1 point 3 years ago

I may look into that. I've never done anything like that before, but it could be a fun project.

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Sentinian 39 points 3 years ago

People want to have everything in one place and they bitch and whine when everything in one place ends up getting under control of people who are shitty.

Defederating is a needed part to maintain no party keeps too much control and ruins it for everyone. Remember why most of us left reddit for here? The ability for communities to defederate others will hopefully prevent the shit that happened.

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Kerfuffle 10 points 3 years ago

Too far in either direction is bad. If everything completely separate was so great, then there would be no need for federation at all: but actually building a community and creating areas that feel alive is tough to do that way. People don't want to individually manage connecting to random separate servers for each community, and if you didn't connect to the right random server maybe you never even find the community you would have contributed to in positive ways.

Getting rid of hateful stuff is good, in my opinion even though some people will muddy the waters it's really not that hard to determine what constitutes "hateful stuff". But there's also going overboard. "OMG, this server allows open user signups and some random dude signed up and created an unpleasant community. DEFEDERATE THE WHOLE SERVER IMMEDIATELY! IMMEDIATELY!!!"

Maybe a better solution is to have servers publish lists of new communities but not federate them to other servers right away. Maybe they need to reach a certain age and (possibly) be subject to some sort of approval process. That will give the administrator of the server a chance to recognize and deal with the problems before it starts to spread out across the federation. Of course, if someone just lets horrible stuff fester on their server and is unresponsive then by all means it should be defederated.

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dnick 7 points 3 years ago

Right, but there is no central authority to decide the best rules, so we get to live through the process figuring itself out. Go ahead and promote what you consider a good solution, but anyone bitching that this or that platform is inhibiting their free speech by not conforming to the process they propose is just part of the noise, not someone to be taken seriously in the discussion.

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Kerfuffle 2 points 3 years ago

Sure. To be honest, anyone who brings up "free speech" when talking about reddit, Lemmy, whatever doesn't really understand free speech.

The only thing I personally was complaining about there was a knee-jerk collective punishment type of approach.

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dnick 3 points 3 years ago

That's fair, I think the first instinct being to defederate is alow effort way of dealing with the issue. I don't necessarily have a better one with the sudden influx of people from platforms so utterly different that is basically a while new world and a while new sleep of malicious actors following the herd, but it still should be understood that it's up to the individual instance to react, not the people leeching off the goodwill of the people maintaining it and complaining the whole way along.

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crowlemo -9 points 3 years ago

Actually defederated as it works here means one party has way more power than in centralized Reddit.

https://sh.itjust.works/comment/511746

It ruins it for anyone who is not deeply in agreement with the admins.

It's admins and groupthink over users. And zero stability or discoverability. Friction with little to gain unless you're in authoritarian lockstep

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RickRussell_CA 39 points 3 years ago

You feelin' alright, man? Maybe get something to eat.

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Ginjutsu 9 points 3 years ago

big "I am very badass" vibes

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Omegamanthethird 4 points 3 years ago

I don't get that vibe at all. Seems like they're calling out people who want toxicity to be allowed.

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Ginjutsu 0 points 3 years ago

Yeah, I get that. I don't even disagree with the sentiment. However, wording it all in a very obnoxious, holier-than-thou manner for the sake of sounding cool and badass does nothing to serve their point.

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Mewtwo 35 points 3 years ago

It's like the old saying goes.. if a Nazi sits at a table and no one gets up, you have a table full of Nazis.

If you have a community full of Nazis then you have an instance full of Nazis.

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marmalade 41 points 3 years ago

Yeah except it's more like a room full of thousands of normal people and you saw two Nazis playing with each others' dicks in the back so you started calling the room a room full of Nazis.

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Quacksalber 12 points 3 years ago

Also the two "Nazis" turn out to be inept MAGA types.

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DaveFuckinMorgan 6 points 3 years ago

Just two fat guys on mobility scooters with red hats

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Monkeyhog 3 points 3 years ago

Two Nazis is two too many.

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what_is_a_name 1 point 3 years ago

Yes. That is entirely correct. That is the point.

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Greg 7 points 3 years ago

What do you consider a nazi?

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MomoTimeToDie -24 points 3 years ago

Everyone right of mao

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austin 33 points 3 years ago

Hi from my new self hosted instance!

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bad_alloc 12 points 3 years ago

Something something landed gentry ;)

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Gangreless 6 points 3 years ago

I assume if I stick to Lemmy this is what I'll have to do. I just a basic experience where I can see everything and not have instances arbitrarily blocked on the whim of an admin

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Evrala 3 points 3 years ago

Might have finally found a use for my old Framework 13 motherboard, not like it would see huge traffic so it would be plenty powerful enough.

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hburb3ri 31 points 3 years ago

The fun part of the fedi is seeing the instance drama. Where before everyone would just yell at the centralized platform corporation, and now we get to yell at the people directly who are trying to filter us out! Usually for good reason.

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TacoNot 14 points 3 years ago

I think these growing pains are a necessity and look forward to seeing how the platform evolves.

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Sarcastik 7 points 3 years ago

Yeah, I predict a long road of "drama" before enough user join and indtance operators won't be able to play these games anymore.

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z3n0x 6 points 3 years ago

Me and my popcorn are ready.

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crowlemo 1 point 3 years ago

Except the user had actually more power to create a positive experience with heterogeneous content in the centralized Reddit than here.

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the_brohamlet 30 points 3 years ago

Seriously. And honestly, even ignoring the super hateful instances, if one server collectively wants to de-federate with another for ANY reason, it is entirely their prerogative. It's funny how many people seem to think that other instances should be FORCED to host others' content, all for their convenience. The level of entitlement there is off the charts.

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FlagonOfMe 18 points 3 years ago

It literally blows my mind that people seem to think otherwise. Especially since the admins hosting an instance are basically running a charity. If you don't want to be on an instance that occasionally defederates from ones that defend hate speech, then go find a different instance, or start your own.

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taladar 8 points 3 years ago

I have literally been downvoted in one of those posts for pointing out that defederating can not be replaced with per user instance blocking completely (as opposed to having both once per user instance blocking is implemented) because admins want to keep content that is illegal in their jurisdiction out of their instance caches.

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Master 25 points 3 years ago

"Quit your Whining" then proceeds to whine.

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riskable 17 points 3 years ago

“Quit your Whining” then proceeds to whine.

Ackshually it was "quit the pseudointellectual whining" 😁

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god 7 points 3 years ago

OP is completely intellectual. This is the difference.

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RickRussell_CA 2 points 3 years ago

S-M-R-T

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Omegamanthethird 1 point 3 years ago

Should have said "fake smart bitchin".

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SenatorBumCuckets 9 points 3 years ago

It's a paradox. If people around you are whining, you are somehow banned from speaking up and saying "stop", as that is also whining. Truly, no one can crack this nut

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_haha_oh_wow_ 25 points 3 years ago

"...b-b-buh-but muh fReE sPeEcH!!1"

-idiots who don't understand the 1st amendment only protects speech from the government, not individuals or corporations and it definitely doesn't protect them from the consequences of their words (never mind the fact that it only applies to one country)

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god 20 points 3 years ago

There is a common misunderstanding. First of all, this is a Canadian instance. There is no American constitution ruling over it. Second, free speech is not limited to the American constitution, or to governments. It is a concept that is related to people's ability to express themselves, not necessarily in relation to a governmental power.

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_haha_oh_wow_ 3 points 3 years ago

Freedom of speech as a concept, sure, but the first amendment only applies to the US government.

Broadly speaking, here's a list of countries and their relative levels of freedom of speech: https://worldpopulationreview.com/...

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god 9 points 3 years ago

That's what I said though. Idk who mentioned the first amendment.

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_haha_oh_wow_ 3 points 3 years ago

I was just making fun of people who bring it up when it's totally irrelevant, on a Lemmy hosted in Canuckistan.

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SenatorBumCuckets -6 points 3 years ago

Are you implying that because the concept freedom of speech exists everyone is inherently required to follow it? What point are you trying to make??

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god 7 points 3 years ago

No. I'm saying that the presence or absence of the first amendment does not preclude the pursuit, or lack thereof, of free speech. I'm saying that free speech can be perfectly pursued or restricted in the absence of the american government, and that the first amendment is simply a statement for Americans, by Americans, on what free speech means in terms of government regulation.

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Quill7513 6 points 3 years ago

The supreme court has also ruled that "the right of the people to peaceably assemble" includes groups telling people they disagree with to leave. Freedom of association includes freedom to not associate

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god 11 points 3 years ago

We're not Americans tho. Supreme Court can go fly paper planes somewhere else.

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Quill7513 8 points 3 years ago

100%. My point wasn't that the supreme court and the constitution are global law. Just that if people are gonna make first amendment argments, they need to realize that they're stupid as hell if they think the first amendment gauruntees they be allowed to say anything anywhere to anyone

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SenatorBumCuckets 4 points 3 years ago

Not a government either, this is a website.

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god 2 points 3 years ago

Yes. Agreed.

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zarquon 22 points 3 years ago

Isn't this a case of take your own advice?

Many instances have already defederated lots of stuff. If you feel strongly about that shouldn't you migrate there over asking other instances to do the same thing? Seems like if he wanted to he would have here by now.

All just feel like fediverse problems and IMO the action should be take ~2 weeks off line and then evaluate there all the shit lands and decide. In thedude's shoes, I would have already pulled the plug on this as way to much hassle to get into the middle of. Props to him for not.

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pattmayne 9 points 3 years ago

Right. OP should find a safe space and stop "whining"

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CarolineJohnson 18 points 3 years ago

The instance that works for me, sadly, is the instance that works on Jerboa and hasn't defederated with any other instances.

Which one is that?

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Aikawa 13 points 3 years ago

I don't use Jerboa, but can still recommend you to take a look at this: https://github.com/....

Pay attention to the number in the BI and BB columns (respectively Blocked Instances, and Blocked By). Given your requirement, SDF Chatter, Vlemmy and Ante Meridiem seem to be good candidates.

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CascadingSymmetry 9 points 3 years ago

Try using Connect for Lemmy instead of Jebora. It honestly seems a lot better and more stable.

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CarolineJohnson 5 points 3 years ago

Did not like Connect. It was far more annoying to use and also didn't support kbin. Far worse experience in general.

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justastranger 4 points 3 years ago

God I can't wait for Sync to come to Lemmy 🙏

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matt 2 points 3 years ago

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mrpants -20 points 3 years ago

You're right. That is sad. Move along now.

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Someology 11 points 3 years ago

Such an utterly unhelpful comment.

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SharkEatingBreakfast 18 points 3 years ago

I love my main "hub" instance. It chooses not to federate itself with a lot of the bigger instances, because those are basically the wild west where anything goes.

My dumb mental health is pretty fragile (I'm mad about that), so it's really bad for my mind to see front page content blatantly putting out bait, open hostility, shitty takes, or arguing about loli porn or whatever.

I'm a person who likes my hobbies, animals, goofy memes, and good conversation. I'm glad I can choose to participate in one "safe" instance, and venture to another if I'm feeling the need to explore more content.

I literally have the power to do both! And I'm happy for that choice.

People shouldn't be upset when the power is in their hands to do whatever they want.

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mrmanager 18 points 3 years ago

People can run their own instance and choose exactly what to take part in. That's the best solution for now if you are a little bit techy and can run ansible against a Linux server.

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god 4 points 3 years ago

The only problem with that is, apart from the technical knowledge required, that the communities feed and past comments are not federated before you manually add them.

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Greyson 16 points 3 years ago

That last line is poetry

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Ketchup 2 points 3 years ago

He forgot to mention the dice bulging in their pockets though.

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Candelestine -3 points 3 years ago

To everyone except that actual group of people...

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mrpants 3 points 3 years ago

Well yeah that is intentional.

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loaf 13 points 3 years ago

I look fucking terrible in a fedora.

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imaqtpie 11 points 3 years ago

Almost everyone does. With the exception of Brad Pitt.

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loaf 8 points 3 years ago

That guy can pull off anything

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bernieecclestoned 1 point 3 years ago

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JesusTheCarpenter 11 points 3 years ago

There is a lot of spite in your comment bro.

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mrpants -4 points 3 years ago

Yeah, so?

Jesus wasn't a carpenter either. He was the son of a carpenter and that more likely translates better to day laborer. It was a reflection of his very humble origins. Being the son of a man in a trade (like a carpenter) would have put him more middle class.

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get_the_reference_ 6 points 3 years ago

Who says that the person you replied to named themselves after that Jesus?

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mrnomoniker 3 points 3 years ago

https://i.imgur.com/OTnvP6j.jpg

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Dash 5 points 3 years ago

Jesus and his father were likely stone workers, not carpenters. The translations got jumbled up along the way.

There historically was a stone quarry about a mile from where Jesus lived as a child. That area also wasn't home to a lot of trees.

There is also a lot of house and stone work parables in the his teachings, and references to corner stones multiple times.

Jesus was a stone worker, not a wood worker. His name was also Yeshua, or "Joshua" as we know it today.

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mrpants 1 point 3 years ago

That's really interesting. Thanks!

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MiddleWeigh 9 points 3 years ago

That's the idea. Thanks.

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bad_alloc 7 points 3 years ago

Fully agreed. We are all on the internet, where you can find a link to questionable content anytime. Moderation is usually limiting those links, but (unless your ISP is blocking sth) nobody is cut off from said content. It is just harder to find, and there is no "right" to find content easily.

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zeusbottom 7 points 3 years ago

ITT: people not downvoting and moving on

or maybe my outrage muscle is just overworked

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god 3 points 3 years ago

Omg no, not the outrage muscle! 😵

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CosmicCleric 6 points 3 years ago

Nerds snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.

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McMurdertree 5 points 3 years ago

Where am I?

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Tubbles 3 points 3 years ago

How did I get here?

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RickRussell_CA 2 points 3 years ago

This is not my beautiful reddit.

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DaveFuckinMorgan 5 points 3 years ago

"interacting with shit content" but I want to see the most controversial instance. I want to see some wild shit. I'm curious of what the bad boys have to say.

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thetreesaysbark 11 points 3 years ago

Just make an account there then?

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god 8 points 3 years ago

No-no, you misunderstand, I want the circus to come to me.

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god 3 points 3 years ago

This. I love the circus. I open all the shitty instances often just to keep myself entertained. 😊 We don't even have to pay for it.

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Tiger94 4 points 3 years ago

👏 Standing ovation

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Azz 0 points 3 years ago

If you think regularly interacting with shit content somehow helps you stay out of an echo chamber then go ahead and make a second account on those garbage instances full of hateful people.

So Beehaw has defederated from your home instance, are you implying that Beehaw is the "garbage instances full of hateful people"? Or are you saying that sh.itjust.works is and you tip your fedora to them for recognising it?

Defederation is a powerful tool which will no doubt be abused, especially with lemmy in it's infancy. I just hope that it isn't abused to the point of completely fracturing the lemmyverse, further confusing new users until they just give up and make an account on the "meaverse" (or whatever facebook endup calling it)

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Mog_fanatic 2 points 3 years ago

This sounds like the premise for an action comedy movie that is a lot more interesting than reality.

Defederation: The Fracture of the Lemmyverse

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sizz -3 points 3 years ago

I need examples. I am trying to find some.

The only whinging I seen so far is tankies whinging about the potential of Nazis coming on this platform. All they need to do is hold up a mirror.

Also, genocide denying instance like lemmy.ml secretly blocking kbin.social.

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itadakimasu -5 points 3 years ago

🙄

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troyunrau -6 points 3 years ago

Meow

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Raphael -6 points 3 years ago

We have both sides here, Lemmygrad for far-left people, Beehaw for far-right.

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LetsTryThatOneAgain 9 points 3 years ago

In what universe is Beehaw "far-right", or even "right" for that matter?

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Raphael 1 point 3 years ago

In the universe where it banned lemmygrad because it's marxist instance.

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meatMech 4 points 3 years ago

People defederate from lemmygrad because it's a tankie instance, not because it's leftist.

Tankies are disliked because they uncritically rally around any country that rejects/has sway against Western influence, even if that country does bad shit.

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Raphael 1 point 3 years ago

That's not "people", it's liberals who have been brainwashed by american propaganda, most importantly the propaganda that tells you there is no propaganda in america.

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gens 0 points 3 years ago

I don't know about right or left, but beehaw looks the most "American" to me. I personally wanna have "All", just without beehaw (as in some exclude post from filter).

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MJKee9 1 point 3 years ago

My understanding is that Beehaw is an American instance. It's left in America, but more centrist to right internationally.

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crowlemo -6 points 3 years ago

The problem is that this and other places were sold as reddit alternatives and they're actually worse than Reddit in that, on Reddit , with one account you could choose what to see and when (akin to controlling your own federation). If you didn't like a mod team you could choose another sub easily. Same account. You could keep looking at the same place too.

Federation at the admin of an instance level means all that has a high cost (account per instance), you don't get to see all at once due to the need to switch accounts and communities are fragmented.

There's also a very clear thin skinned authoritarian attitude that seems to promote bullying against any type of dissent while claiming some sort of moral authority.

Lemmy is broken as a Reddit replacement. By not having the onus on the user but on the admin, and seeing the attitudes from the recommended major instances, it has little chance to generate diverse or interesting content and communities. Just very narrow and small, toe the line places with poor discoverability.

Shame.

Edit: in Reddit communities were above mods. In Lemmy, it's potentially/in practice whiny Mods complaining about anyone in their community that doesn't fully agree with them and having the power to completely ruin their account. Much worse.

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snakesnakewhale 2 points 3 years ago

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crowlemo -5 points 3 years ago

Nazi shit. A big claim. I don't care to talk with people who sees Nazis everywhere, you're exactly the type of authortiarian user I'm talking about.

If my country has a different policy than your political party of choice, probably in the US, then suddenly I'm a nazi for even having an opinion. Don't worry, I'm also a nazi for being against X war and a nazi for being for free speech, and a baby killer for X in another more pro abortion place and whatever.

Lame thinskinned authortiarians are exactly those who are attracted with this insanely top down lemmyworld. The type that will seek a cause and a self defined victimhood status in order to have different rules so they can abuse others, because you're right and it's "the greater good".

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snakesnakewhale 0 points 3 years ago

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Gangreless 2 points 3 years ago

Wow this is such a well worded and eloquent comment, exactly the feelings I've had about Lemmy since coming over and why I don't think it will sustain the user count it's seen. Most people that are here are going to end up back at reddit because of this.

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meldroc 1 point 3 years ago

If you don't like the way an instance curates content, switch to a different instance, or make your own instance and curate content yourself.

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crowlemo -4 points 3 years ago

The friction is too high each time. Compared to Reddit without offering that much value. Hell, that Blocklist admin is good and owns your user Paradigm makes for very inflexible and circlejerky interactions

Love it or leave means total consent or fuck you. That's not a community. It's a cult.

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spark947 0 points 3 years ago

Buddy, you can always host your own instance. Most places will not de-federate small instances if they don't act inappropriately. This is the only way to build something sustainable that can't be taken away by someone.

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crowlemo -2 points 3 years ago

Yes. I also can develop my own social website. Both are efforts that are not worth it to undertake to just participate in this environment, which, will make the default barrier of entry a ridiculous one (or an authortiarian minded one).

No. It's not. When the power is on decentralized Ids that the instance doesn't have so much power over, then it will be more interesting. As it stands, it offers actually less than Reddit, which is incredible to me (I'm super onboard with descentralization and user power but this is not user power).

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spark947 1 point 3 years ago

It's really not that hard. Just host it on your computer, or find a smaller instance that everyone will federate with.

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crowlemo -3 points 3 years ago

Can you suggest that smaller instance? Meeaw and sh.it, the 2 instances I tried keep defederating left and right and justifying bullying as long as it confirms to their political opinions.

It's hypocritical, circlejerky and boring. Made me go back to Reddit. I don't understand how this paradigm of no user control without the absurd friction of self hosting is better for the user unless you're a niche authoritarian who is fully subservient to some admin.

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can -7 points 3 years ago

Then you can read both the decent servers and the trash ones and be the fedora wearing ackshually right fair and balanced uber nerd you always wanted to be.

Is that what you think it is? For some maybe, but I think it's good to take a look occasionally just to see what they're focusing on. The terminology used. It's more like recon. Know the "enemy".

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rocket 11 points 3 years ago

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can 0 points 3 years ago

Oh I'm not an active participent on them.

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neomis 7 points 3 years ago

This. I used to lurk on r/conservative so when the in-laws came to visit I had a response to the bs they spewed. “Did you know Obama is giving every poor person an iPhone?” type stuff.

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Aikawa 2 points 3 years ago

@can@sh.itjust.works @neomis@sh.itjust.works In that case, you don't need your instance to be federated; if you simply want to check on the latest nonsense, you can directly access the "enemy's" instance. And what's more, you won't have to wonder if their content has been properly federated (missing posts or comments), or if someone from there blocked you.

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can 1 point 3 years ago

That's exactly what I do.

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can 1 point 3 years ago

Exactly, I'm glad I'm not alone.

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jmsw22 3 points 3 years ago

“Lenemy”

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pattmayne -10 points 3 years ago

Right, I guess you would tell immigrants they're free to join another country.

Thanks for calling it "whining" when people engage in conversation about how to organize. You seem nice and tolerant. Not toxic, lover of safe (cruel?) spaces.

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krackalot 15 points 3 years ago

Yes, because selling your home and moving your family and all your belongings several hundred miles is exactly equivalent to making a second lemmy account. Expecting sever owners who invest time and money into this to cater to your wants when making a second account is too hard is fair and doesn't come off as whiney behavior at all either.

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pattmayne -4 points 3 years ago

exactly equivalent

Nothing is "exactly equivalent" to anything unless it's two identical numbers. The analogy is definitely legit. You're telling people to GTFO.

Expecting sever owners who invest time and money into this to cater to your wants

This applies much better to people asking server owners to block instances.

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krackalot 0 points 3 years ago

This is true, nothing is exactly equivalent, bad choice of words. It's not remotely equivalent either though. An equivalent scenario would be if immigrants showed up to the border, and were turned away, but also had a 1000 other places the could go within a few feet. And it applies to everyone making demands of server owners. Make an appeal for your wants. If they ignore it, find a server that fits better.

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pattmayne -1 points 3 years ago

Yes it is equivalent, because you're telling your fellow humans to LEAVE instead of discuss things on a public forum. It's obviously weird and petty to tell people to leave.

And yet the mods aren't harassing me and I'm not harassing the mods. I'm discussing the benefits of connection with all the other federated users. And a very small number of people are petty enough to tell me to leave. "We don't discuss things 'round here. Giiit out!"

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mrpants 0 points 3 years ago

I believe in being kind to kindness and cruel to cruelty.

The garbage trash instances (ie. exploding-heads) are cruel, they get cruelty in return. It's a moral imperative to NOT be nice to them.

This is nothing like immigration and that point is so bad it's not even wrong it's just nonsense.

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pattmayne 0 points 3 years ago

You're not being cruel to the "garbage trash instances," you're being cruel to your fellow Lemmy-users who you accuse of "whining" as they express their opinions about federation.

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mrpants 0 points 3 years ago

We're talking about defederating with the garbage trash instances. Specifically exploding-heads.

All defederation thus far has been about not connecting to the hate (EH, lemmygrad, etc.). No one is trying to defederate with reasonable instances.

No one on these instances is my fellow anything. They can go wallow in the cesspits where they belong.

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pattmayne 0 points 3 years ago

God you're poisonous. I think you belong on exploding heads or lemmygrand or whatever.

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mr_washee_washee -14 points 3 years ago

the enshittification has begun

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jerrimu 18 points 3 years ago

De-shitification. FTFY

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Sentinian 6 points 3 years ago

Regardless of thoughts on this situation, this is very much not enshittification. Typical it happens as a result of corporate or profit drive. Instances are mostly run by volunteers who just want a good community.

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mr_washee_washee -3 points 3 years ago

but some users dont want a good community 😬

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Sentinian 2 points 3 years ago

What do you even mean? The reason we all waste our lives on social media and other things is because we want a good community for ourselves. What might suck to you might be incredible to someone else

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iSharted 5 points 3 years ago

The what?

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AppearanceBoring9229 9 points 3 years ago

Enshitification is the dead spiral a platform goes when it starts to prioritize money, you can read more here: https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/

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squaresinger 12 points 3 years ago

Can a free platform without commercial interests actually fall to classical enshitification?

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SFBhPxGrusCT 18 points 3 years ago

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ram 12 points 3 years ago

It's pretty odd to use a term about the blind focus on capital to describe a process (defederation) that's only really feasible because there's no capital.

A for-profit company must appease their users so they can grow. Lemmy has no such need. It does not need to grow. It simply needs to sustain, and instance owners don't have investment in its future growth. As a result they can afford to say "I don't like this user, begone" and "I don't like this entire instance's thing, go away."

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mr_washee_washee 1 point 3 years ago

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anon_cloud -17 points 3 years ago

Go eat the tendies your mom warmed up for you.

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