I moved from Lemmy.ml because I liked the name of Lemmy.world and it ran a newer Lemmy version which meant I could make communities. I moved from Lemmy.world because they defederated from piracy communities they didn't even host (but for some reason still kept the small piracy community they DID host) From thelemmy.club because I couldn't see the Hackintosh community from there (probably defederated) Now I spent some time looking on join-lemmy.org and checked out some instances and this (lemy.lol) instance seemed good, so I chose that.
kuberoot 19 points 3 years ago
I don't think that'd work, with Lemmy being a federated model, not a fully decentralized one.
How do you handle the actual login? Does that mean every server has access to your password hash? Or do you overhaul the account system to use something like a private and public key, with the user needing to store and transfer the private key to every device they use?
And what happens if two people register with the same username on two instances that aren't federating? Do they somehow need to still communicate with all other instances in the network they operate in, to prevent that from happening? Because the alternative I see is the login being random in some way or tied to the instance, in which case you still lose the impression of a single service.
If I'm not mistaken, right now anybody could host a non-federating Lemmy instance, if they just wanted a small private community in this style. To my understanding, that's the idea behind federation, and a founding concept of Lemmy - it's not a giant service distributed across trusted servers, but a network of smaller communities that communicate with limited trust.
Kecessa 5 points 3 years ago
There are no instances anymore with this system, it's the data hosting that's decentralized, the front-end looks like a centralized website so you would go to Lemmy.com instead of whatever instance you signed up on.
Imagine Reddit but there's no central authority and instead of using a service like AWS it's just people providing storage space and bandwidth and they can decide not to host content from certain communities on their server, but from the user's point of view they wouldn't know where they're pulling the data from.
So no, you couldn't have two users with the same username. The user database could easily be shared by all storage providers or the database could be randomly split and you would have to mention what part of the database your info is stored on when logging in. When creating your account (where it checks for doubles on the whole username list hosted on all servers) you're given a random third credential that you need to mention when logging in so the service knows which servers host that part of the user database (all info including the database would have triple redundancy).
Right now a website's data might not be stored on a single server so that's already how things work, the difference is that all the different servers are owned by the same company (like Amazon or Google). In the backend the servers communicate together to provide the data to the users so it feels like everything is hosted in the same place.
TL;DR: The best way to fix things is to make it work like it does for any other websites but to only decentralize the hosting instead of also decentralizing the communities.
kuberoot 14 points 3 years ago
Sounds like what you want basically is not Lemmy.
It also raises some pretty big issues, like who gets to moderate communities? Right now you make a community on a specific instance, you follow that instance's rules, so the instance host has authority over the community. If you disagree with the instance's rules, or with the way the community is ran, you can make a community on another instance, or even make your own instance with your own rules.
And from the other side, there need to be people with the authority to remove communities, and remove people/posts across different communities. Right now that's the responsibility of the instance hosts, to my understanding - content is hosted on a primary instance, and stored through federating instances, so the primary instance has a responsibility to keep it clean of illegal material. Who would have this power and responsibility if instances aren't differentiated? Sounds like the best case is giving trustworthy people an excessive amount of power, and the worst case is the entire network being shut down due to distributing illegal content and being effectively impossible to moderate.
You also didn't address the issue of passwords - currently it's a pretty big deal when hashed+salted passwords leak, considering those passwords compromised... The comparison with AWS is flawed - when using AWS, you're trusting them, because it's a big company with a reputation to keep. The situation seems very different when it's random enthusiasts with highly differing views, and without a central authority to verify them (though there are probably too many to verify anyways)
And you propose that anybody can join the network and receive users' passwords? On top of that, you're proposing that you need to also know the "server" your data is stored on and supply that with logging in? Sounds like a really annoying friction point for the user.
I really feel like you're approaching this from the wrong direction, suggesting Lemmy should abolish the very structure it's built on for one you'd like more, but I think it could be possible to make the experience nicer without going to those extremes.
Maybe it'd be possible to let multiple instances have authority over an account, without changing its home instance, so that if your original instance goes down, you can keep the same account. And to reduce friction from communities being made across multiple instances, some way for communities themselves to federate/combine would be nice, and is probably being considered by people smarter than me.
Kecessa 1 point 3 years ago
I know it's not how Lemmy works, what I'm saying is "There's a big issue with how Lemmy works, here's how I think decentralization should be approached instead." Having terabytes of information possibly disappearing because one person gets in a car accident on their way to work isn't an improvement vs a centralized system hosted on AWS.
Communities would be moderated by their creator, server admins could decide not to host content from any communities they don't want to host, if no server admin wants to host your community then you're free to host it on your own server or to fix the problems with it.
There's illegal content on Lemmy right now, even instances that don't want to host it need to clean up their images folder because of it, so it's not as if the way it works right now is any better for that and it's not as if there's no instance admin ready to host that content.
User credentials can be stored securely. Do you think your instance admin has a text file with your password written in plain characters?
The third credential I was suggesting is just one solution so not all servers have to have a "master database" with all user info stored, split the database and let the users know they need to remember they confirm their login through database X or Y. I'm sure much more intelligent people could come up with another solution.
MashedTech 17 points 3 years ago
I subscribe to this view.
camelbeard 9 points 3 years ago
After seeing this post, I needed to check what server am I on right now anyway, didn't even remember, so I guess that's a good thing.
Kecessa 5 points 3 years ago
You're still dependent on a single point of failure, what I'm talking about is doing like any other website but instead of using a provider like AWS, you've got a bunch of people all over the world providing storage space and bandwidth and all data is stored on three servers in different locations at all times so there's basically no reason for the website to ever crash.
If you were to access Lemmy from a web browser you would need to remember what server you're signed up to because that's the website you would need to go to, you wouldn't be going to "Lemmy.com" or whatever.
aeronmelon 1 point 3 years ago
You're right, but there's more to appreciate about needing to choose an instance.
It's like email. All email services work with all others, but the end user still needs to choose a good one. There are more than one "good one"s, and part of the decision is about personal taste.
And sometimes you have to leave a bad provider for a better one. Look at my account, it's brand new. Because lemm.ee has had one too many federation issues for my taste.
Kecessa 0 points 3 years ago
Ok, so your argument is basically "Look at this unrelated service, that's how it works too, so nothing wrong with the current service except that I had to do the thing that proves that what you're talking about would be better."
Eliminate the central authorities altogether, let people curate their feed so they don't have to worry about someone else making choices about their experience.
Someone could join Lemmy today and have no idea they're missing out on a big part of the available content because they joined the wrong instance, they would then turn around and just go back to Reddit where they know everything is available and they're in control of what they're subscribed to and what users they want to block.
Sky_Lobster 82 points 3 years ago
Honest question... What's the difference? I just signed up with .world without really doing much looking around first...
MentalEdge 69 points 3 years ago
Some instances are running on better servers than others, have staff that fix issues quicker and attend to updates sooner.
For example, .world is still on v18 while the rest of the threadiverse has mostly moved on to v19.
Some instances defederate certain other instances, so in some cases you might end up finding that a community you subbed to gets disappeared by the admins of your instance (lemmy.ml did this to ani.social a while back). Whether there are valid reasons goes case by case, sopuli.xyz for example blocks instances that are for porn, and I like it that way.
Though outward federation is a bit borked on there atm, so I'm using my alts...
But really, it doesn't matter that much. If the grass looks greener, you can hop over the fence and see for yourself, and then hop right back if it turns out it wasn't.
Octopus1348 21 points 3 years ago
I only moved from World because I wanted a smaller instance (and maybe because of stability). And from thelemmy.club because it blocked the Hackintosh community. And from lemmy.ml, which was my first one I moved because I heard the alligations that the admin was pro-chinese government.
GrammatonCleric 17 points 3 years ago
"Allegations". Nice.
fmstrat 13 points 3 years ago
Moderation and politics. Many in Lemmy don't like ML's stance on issues, including banning and moderating dissenting opinions. World won't defederate from Threads. Etc. Despite no major user difference, Lemmy is a much more "active" vs passive community in reinforcing their beliefs in what's right. It's why many migrated here to begin with.
TserriednichThe4th 4 points 3 years ago
Threads?
CyberEgg 9 points 3 years ago
Meta's/Zuckerberg's microblogging service, also runs on Activity Pub (the protocol that allows instances of any given service to communicate with each other, basically the backbone protocol of the Fediverse).
Many Fediverse instances decided to defederate Threads because of who's behind it and because they're afraid Meta's ging to do to AP what Google did to XMPP.
MentalEdge 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 6240972 6275033, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Track_Shovel 45 points 3 years ago
laughs in solarpunk
We are fucking tiny, and everyone as far as I know is federated with us because they can't be bothered. Our server is run well, though we do get a bit of unscheduled downtime (though the biggest one was due to a fucking hurricane)
MossyFeathers 8 points 3 years ago
Everyone forgets about pawb.social too. Even furries seem to forget it exists lol.
AVincentInSpace 4 points 3 years ago
Furries unite!
(we're not as ignored as yiffit.net though)
wolfshadowheart 4 points 3 years ago
I see both of these on all constantly.
jivandabeast 4 points 3 years ago
Similar boat, private instances ftw
Track_Shovel 2 points 3 years ago
My brother
hazeebabee 1 point 3 years ago
Ayyyyooo slrpnk 4 lyfe
Track_Shovel 3 points 3 years ago
sharkfucker420 35 points 3 years ago
.ml works great for me. What problems did you have with it?
stevehobbes 11 points 3 years ago
Mostly the people running and modding it are insane.
platypus_plumba 15 points 3 years ago
Thank God I don't give a fuck about Lemmy dramas. If it works and I like the content, I'll stay.
blackn1ght 3 points 3 years ago
The problem starts when your comments silently get removed and you end up getting banned under vague "rule 1" because a mod disagrees with your view. The narrative of communities are defined by the mods even though the community is just a generic one.
stevehobbes -4 points 3 years ago
Which is fine for you, but other people might not like existing on an instance entirely devoted to bootlicking and silencing any differing opinions (that are even left of mainstream… but not left enough).
People joining .ml should know what they’re getting.
sharkfucker420 7 points 3 years ago
Oh you mean the communism?
I am communist
stevehobbes 3 points 3 years ago
I can understand that someone might think communism is a better solution and worth a shot - but what I can’t understand is the China/Russia apologia. Trying to convince people what is plainly happening isn’t is a form of mental illness.
AteshgaRubyTeeth 34 points 3 years ago
I’ve created my account at .world, anything I missed? Seems to work fine for me
Jessica 9 points 3 years ago
They started defederating with piracy and trans instances and kept pushing a Discord server so I took off.
Oh and also Beehaw defederated with lemmy.world, and I wanted to see that content.
Second edit because I was reminded lemmy.world is still planning to federate with Threads, which I also wasn't okay with.
AltheaHunter 13 points 3 years ago
What trans instances have they defederated?
AltheaHunter 25 points 3 years ago
Calling hexbear a "trans instance" is pretty misleading. They're explicitly political first and foremost, and happen to have a high concentration of trans/queer users. They were defederated by .world for being overbearing and disruptive, not because of their transness or queerness. Blahaj zone, by comparison, is explicitly a trans instance first and foremost, and is still federated by .world.
AteshgaRubyTeeth 4 points 3 years ago
So this would mean I wouldn’t see some piracy related content? Because I’m subscribed to some piracy communities and I think I can see the content.
I’m not really up to date with how the links between the different Lemmy instances work
Jessica 3 points 3 years ago
You can check what a particular instance is federating and blocking at any time by visiting the instance page. Here is the one for lemmy.world https://lemmy.world/instances
Notably, it looks like they are federating with dbzer0 again.
AteshgaRubyTeeth 3 points 3 years ago
Thanks for the information. This is putting me off on Lemmy a bit, feels like I got to keep up with the latest instance drama to ensure I have a good experience.
Guess that’s the trade of with a decentralized system for now.
pete_the_cat 2 points 3 years ago
Same, I use World and in the Boost app I just select all or subscribed instead of local and I definitely still see the piracy community that I'm subscribed to 🤷♂️
Alexstarfire 2 points 3 years ago
I've seen quite a bit of both on here so I'm not sure what your talking about. IDK admitting about hexbear.
Octopus1348 1 point 3 years ago
The first one was one of my problems. I should add the info to my post.
cashews_best_nut 33 points 3 years ago
I had one of my posts on AskLemmy deleted for being "offensive". It was asking a silly question "Are Brits the Americans of Europe?". Some saw the lighthearted side. The professionally offended got it deleted.
Over-moderation will kill Lemmy instances. One of the reasons Reddit became as big as it did is due to very light-touch moderation verging on "absolute freedom of speech". It was refreshing and 'alternative' compared to the increasing sanitisation of the Internet.
Unfortunately Reddit-rotted Zoomers have jumped from the heavy-handed Reddit modding to Lemmy and will quickly fuck up any attempt to grow the platform. Because they don't remember/know how early Reddit worked.
They're trying to moderate Lemmy like it's a billion-user platform when it's a few hundred thousand.
The_Vampire 12 points 3 years ago
The whole point of the Reddit-style was that subreddits could be controlled by moderators and prevented from slipping into the same old tired town square-esque mess that arrives with popularity. I guarantee a mechanism to remove moderators would result in niche communities that get a surge in popularity winding up with the original moderators ousted because all the newcomers don't understand the community.
If you don't like how a community is run, you can start your own for completely free. That's how this works, you shouldn't be able to commandeer a community from the people who started it. If there's a truly problematic moderator, the new community will grow quickly.
ArmokGoB 0 points 3 years ago
The issue is that a community on any platform is made by the average users, not the moderators. If you splinter a community into three competing communities, you will probably severely damage its integrity as a whole. It's similar to the issue that some Discord servers have, where they tell people to take discussion from the main channel into different channels. More often than not, this kills the discussion because few people actually move to a different channel, with most opting to drop the discussion entirely.
A few people shouldn't have complete ownership over something that exists because the people under them make it so.
The_Vampire 0 points 3 years ago
At the end of the day, it is the moderators who maintain and control the community. They control what users even see, so it's not fair to say a community is made by the average user, the average user is completely silent. I would rather competing communities over every community being at the whim of the masses. The masses are easy to misguide.
Anon819450514 6 points 3 years ago
Yup. The platform should feel alive.
I remember on Reddit when people were trying the limits and quirks of the algorithm, and you would wake up one day and your feed was filled with something totally unrelated. A few hours later and it went back to normal.
TheKingBee 4 points 3 years ago
Over-moderation will kill Lemmy instances. One of the reasons Reddit became as big as it did is due to very light-touch moderation verging on “absolute freedom of speech”. It was refreshing and ‘alternative’ compared to the increasing sanitisation of the Internet.
That's the sub not the website, over moderation is a feature of some subs, just like lemmy instances. Just like reddit, if you don't like it create your own, unlike reddit you can set an overall tone to your instance.
half_built_pyramids 3 points 3 years ago
I say some spicy stuff now and then. Some gets hammered some not.
TheKingBee 0 points 3 years ago path: 0 6250056 6254666, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
spudwart 27 points 3 years ago
I understand the issue of “it’s a Fediverse only if the network is diversified.” And “it’s difficult for new users to understand.” But if we also go down the path of making the system like a standard centralized network we defeat the purpose of the Fediverse.
Our issue isn’t a “we need to copycat our predecessors” it’s a “we need to explain how we work in a simple enough way no one could possibly misunderstand.”
I’ve tried various methods of explaining it, and I think the issue is half bad explanations and half a lack of interest.
We need to also start pressing our strengths. The Fediverse, as it’s nature of an AGPLv3 project, is ad free. We also don’t have the weight of megacorps deciding what is allowed to be shared because of said ad revenue.
Avoid talking about the technology. Boast our numbers, we’re 2 million strong on Lemmy and 14 million Fediverse wide. Avoid confusion, offer help, and press our advantages.
liforra 2 points 3 years ago
What about
Its like email but for social media because everyone can make an account on different instances and still talktoveachother
Its free and without ads or a premium subscription
Its run by users, big corporation's wont decide whqt makes them most money, users will decide
SuicideSorcerer 1 point 3 years ago
I think I get how it’s supposed to work but I feel like there’s not much content on here or my instance maybe hides stuff from my feed. I also think the search function for new communities needs improvement.
Octopus1348 10 points 3 years ago
I think I'll stay here if there are no problems. That's why I used the word "might"
pete_the_cat 3 points 3 years ago
Same, I signed up to Lemmy.world and have been on here for probably a good 4-5 months. If you browse the federated network instead of just your local server it doesn't matter what server you use AFAIK.
cyclohexane 9 points 3 years ago
I highly doubt that most people use that term to refer to female dogs.
pete_the_cat 1 point 3 years ago
What the hell is your deal?
FIST_FILLET 19 points 3 years ago
what’s this supposed to mean? i’ve never had an issue with .ml
Roflmasterbigpimp 13 points 3 years ago
I don't get it ._. Why move?
ThePyroPython 12 points 3 years ago
(Cries in feddit.uk)
fastandcurious 7 points 3 years ago
Lemmy.world has been very slow for me lately
HexesofVexes 7 points 3 years ago
What we really need is an app with an ordered account list that allows you to view all the content from those accounts and when responding/contributing uses that order and picks the top one that is able to.
__lone_eagle___ 7 points 3 years ago
STOP IT... Get some Help
scytale 6 points 3 years ago
lemm.ee is at the bottom of the ocean right now because of federation issues after upgrading to 0.19. I’m mostly shouting into a void. Can anyone see this comment? I know my comments in .world are not getting seen.
BarrelAgedBoredom 2 points 3 years ago
Had no idea lemm.ee was having issues. Thought I was shadowbanned or something haha
nonfuinoncuro 1 point 3 years ago
I haven't noticed any issues
pubertthefat 1 point 3 years ago
I see you. You matter.
havid_dume 3 points 3 years ago
One of us. One of us.
Octopus1348 4 points 3 years ago
Why?
nightwatch_admin 3 points 3 years ago
Nice daily workout
memes
@lemmy.ml
57225
14836
4584
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
go to feed...
memes
@lemmy.ml
57225
14836
4584
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
go to feed...
I'll say it again and again, decentralization needs to be something the end user doesn't notice, signing up to Lemmy should be like signing up to a centralized service with the servers running things being decentralized and the info redundant so servers can go down without having any effect on the service.
Let the admins decide if they don't want to host content from certain communities, let the users decide if they want to block communities and users.
save