Oh yeah, I’m really happy that alt-right/ *ist/neonazi/etc views are represented.
So glad for diversity of bigotry!
Sarcasm obviously.
That post seems to be missing.
FaeDrifter 3 points 3 years ago
Honestly if Nazis are going to exist I would way rather have them in plain site.
_wintermute 10 points 3 years ago
Yeah, me too. I like my nazis right where they can get their message out the most and have the most success at growing the cause /s
Liberal trash-think like this is so weak to fascism.
FaeDrifter -2 points 3 years ago
Why do Nazis have success at growing their cause?
ki77erb 7 points 3 years ago
The thing about having them in plain site, is that it makes it easier for people with mental illnesses to find them, be brainwashed and join them. I just wondering if driving them back under a rock and out of public eye makes it harder for their numbers and ideals to grown and thrive.
_wintermute 2 points 3 years ago
What the fuck, this has nothing to do with mental illness lmao
Say it slowly with me
Some
People
Are
Just
Shit.
There doesn't need to be a diagnosis or reason.
FaeDrifter -4 points 3 years ago
Maybe we should be doing something about mental illness instead of abandoning them?
Aceticon 1 point 3 years ago
Any censorship always boils down to there being somebody who defines what "Far"-anything is.
Judging by the political speech of the "mainstream" in lots of countries (you know the ones: members of parties which have alternated in power, as duopoly with one other "mainstream" party, for more than half a century, with corruption cases blowing up left and right or just a subverted Judiciary and Press), "far" is anybody who says "we should have a true Democracy were all votes count the same, Political decision making is transparent and the Judiciary and Press Pillars of Democracy are Independent and work".
I frankly don't really know if or were a line on speech should be drawn, but I am absolutelly certain the whole thing will be subverted to silence way more than merely nazis. I mean, all it takes is to look at what the "terrorist" label and even anti-terror legislation are used for nowadays (for example members of the Greenparty in the UK were under surveilance approved through anti-terror legislation).
All this to say that your take on this seems dangerously simplistic in light of the history of abuse when it comes to limiting speech.
FabioTheNewOrder 38 points 3 years ago
Ah yes, let just allow a bunch of violent extremists bring their radicalising ideas to the mainstream through the use of logical fallacies and of fake news in an historical period where the investments in schools and higher education are stifled by most of the world governments, I'm sure nothing bad will happen.
Am I right, Florida? And what about you Texas, do you also think I'm right? Italy and part of Germany are sure I'm right, so this must be a great idea.
Fucking centrists
FluffyPotato 30 points 3 years ago
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason into.
Like the only way to deradicalize someone has been if someone close to them IRL talks to them or if some figure that radicalized them got absolutely embarassed publically for their views. Social media has done nothing but radicalized these people further.
TSG_Asmodeus 29 points 3 years ago
Suppressing different views on a platform doesn’t make them go away
We're not talking about 'different views', we're talking about violent, bigoted, misogynistic, racist views that advocate for the removal/killing of people based on what they were born as. There's no 'middle ground' or 'debate' to be had with someone who holds those views.
They can be de-radicalised sure, but not by a bunch of strangers on the internet.
Cethin 8 points 3 years ago
You've got a lot of replies, so this probably isn't needed, but debate and persuasion only works if the views they hold are reasonable and if they came to those views through reason. It also legitimizes their views. Often "debate" is used as a tool to appear like they're the more reasonable person by being the one who always asks questions, but they never answer anything. They always attack and they don't defend any view (because they are not reasonably held, just useful), so they look like the more powerful persuasive point of view.
Basically, argument only works with reasonable people. The alt-right generally are not reasonable people and will use your arguing to make you appear stupid and them appear powerful to recruit more people. Don't argue with the alt-right. Only humiliate them in the hopes others see how bad they are.
exapsy -6 points 3 years ago
Dude, they're gonna exist anyway. Banning them does not change them. It just ... mutes them from you. They're going to go to their next lemmy/reddit/twitter/neighborhood/bar/whatever and say the same things.
Radicalizing them and getting away from them, or if you're a very great diplomatic person and persuasive and charismatic to change their minds, is the best you can do. But banning them, just makes them make their own echo-circle ANYWAYS. You're not changing anything. You're literally making things worse by banning them. You just make your place seem "safer", but these people are gonna co-exist in a another circle anyways. You're not banishing them from existence.
Kuinox 26 points 3 years ago
Wrong, studies shows this is very effective.
https://techcrunch.com/...
Post-ban, hate speech by the same users was reduced by as much as 80-90 percent.
Also,
long term solution is debate and persuasion.
Yes, let's remember how we convinced nazis with debate and persuasion.
preasket -4 points 3 years ago
Obviously, bans work on a website. We’re talking about a country though. It’s a closed space.
Are we talking about literal Nazis that kill people or just those who dislike minorities? Maybe even everyone who voted Trump? If so, you’re gonna find that it’s impossible to solve the problem by pure force because that’s half the population!
Post WW2 it worked because, in fact, they lost the war.
plumbercraic -11 points 3 years ago
Cool. Let's double down on dogma and orthodoxy. That's sure to fix it. Let's also be sure to remind people that disagree with us that they are in fact, bad people.
Now that I have solved All The Problems imma go outside.
Marsupial 20 points 3 years ago
I remember a point of time not too long ago when the world didn’t tolerate this bullshit out in the open.
Guess what? We didn’t have the extreme issues we’re seeing now from these groups after allowing them to advertise over every legit platform.
So don’t feed me this shit that if we don’t give them a platform to spread hate, that they will become a problem. They are a bloody fucking problem now that we have.
Jackolantern 15 points 3 years ago
Second,the argument ignores the fact that debate and persuasion are not always effective or possible when dealing with fascists. Fascists are not interested in rational dialogue or evidence, but in emotional manipulation and intimidation. They use lies, distortions, and appeals to fear and hatred to sway their audience. They also resort to violence and terrorism when they feel threatened or challenged. Trying to debate fascists only gives them more opportunities to spread their lies and hatred, and to silence or attack their critics.
Jackolantern 12 points 3 years ago
Third, the argument overlooks the harm that allowing fascist views on a platform can cause to the people who are targeted by them. Fascists often scapegoat and demonize minorities, immigrants, LGBTQ+ people, women, Jews, Muslims, and other groups that they consider inferior or enemies. By giving fascists a platform, we are exposing these vulnerable groups to hate speech, harassment, discrimination, and even physical violence. We are also normalizing and legitimizing fascism as a valid political option, which can erode our democratic values and institutions.
preasket -9 points 3 years ago
Well, you have to at least try. It will be effective to some extent. If they use distortion or intimidation, reveal it and make them look dumb. Emotional manipulation can be used by all sides. Of course, if they resort to violence, you are free to supress violence with violence.
Jackolantern 12 points 3 years ago
Third, the argument overlooks the harm that allowing fascist views on a platform can cause to the people who are targeted by them. Fascists often scapegoat and demonize minorities, immigrants, LGBTQ+ people, women, Jews, Muslims, and other groups that they consider inferior or enemies. By giving fascists a platform, we are exposing these vulnerable groups to hate speech, harassment, discrimination, and even physical violence. We are also normalizing and legitimizing fascism as a valid political option, which can erode our democratic values and institutions.
preasket -10 points 3 years ago
Targeted harassment and physical harm should, of course, be prohibited, nobody is arguing againt that. Having randos post their intolerant views on social media doesn't legitimize it in any way. It instead gives others a chance to talk them out of it.
RaincoatsGeorge 12 points 3 years ago
Mmmm. No. Because those people will never follow the rules, will never act in good faith. Could Poland in the 30s hope to ‘sit down and have a good debate’ with the nazis? Fuck no. The nazis then are no different than the nazis now, it’s just that the ones we have today are stupid as shit.
You stomp out Nazis and extremists like the cockroaches they are. They need to know they don’t have a seat at the table . They don’t get to express their worldview in public spaces. They should always be reminded that we bent over the fascists once before and we will do it again. The only good fascist is a little bitch fascist that’s afraid to leave their house in case they catch an elbow. Make Nazis afraid again.
Laticauda 7 points 3 years ago
Except the nazi playbook literally involves invading spaces that support free speech and commandeering them in order to silence other groups and give themselves a platform to radicalize others more easily. If you truly value free speech then you don't want to give nazis or neo-nazis a platform.
Jackolantern 7 points 3 years ago
I’m sorry but I beg to disagree,
First, it assumes that all views are equally valid and worthy of debate, which is not the case. Some views, such as fascism, are inherently antidemocratic, violent, and oppressive, and do not deserve a platform in a free society. Fascism is not just a different opinion, but a political ideology and mass movement that seeks to exalt nation and often race above the individual and to forcibly suppress any opposition. Giving fascists a platform to spread their propaganda and recruit followers is not only irresponsible, but also dangerous, as history has shown.
preasket -7 points 3 years ago
So, what do you propose to do with fascists, racists, etc? Kill them? Debate is an opportunity to get those people, who are probably very dissatisfied with life, on the right path. Removal from platforms leads to them creating their own, isolated groups that get ever more radicalised. Every view, however dumb it may be, is worthy of debate or of at least being seen (people are free to ignore it). Not all views are equally valid, of course, but the validity of views is determined precisely during debate and argumentation. I don't support fascism, racism, etc but if there's a shortcut to remove those views from the public, the same shortcut can be used to remove anything! That's a clear route to authoritarianism.
FlyingSquid 6 points 3 years ago
Debate and persuasion are great- until they have someone better at debating and more persuasive than you. There's a reason why Goebbels was so powerful in Nazi Germany.
Cyo 4 points 3 years ago
Last time my government said that "The solution is not force, its dialog and debate" was a year ago when trying to dialog with terrorists, it definitely did not end good...
I'm in favor of liberty of expression, but there are really some humans that are insane...
karmiclychee 3 points 3 years ago
Someone left the Overton window open 😕
astral_avocado -7 points 3 years ago
You're getting downvoted way too hard for a very reasonable take.
SpacetimeMachine 10 points 3 years ago
It's not reasonable in the slightest. Were talking about Nazis here. Their is no debating with them. While you wait patiently and try to explain your point they'll be taking advantage and advancing their agenda. An agenda, I'll remind you, where they literally want a large portion of society to be exterminated.
burningquestion 25 points 3 years ago path: 0 1095734 1161194, hotness: undefined, score: 25, children: 2
Reliant1087 8 points 3 years ago
Kbin already exists.
burningquestion 2 points 3 years ago path: 0 1095734 1161194 1170579 1193641, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
Prandom_returns -3 points 3 years ago
If tou think that mods can't simply remove your comments, you're mistaken.
astral_avocado -12 points 3 years ago
What I'd like to know is why they're developing Lemmy if they're like, actively Chinese agents. No Chinese citizen would even be allowed to use Lemmy so it's baffling, and the Chinese government would not want a social media site that's uncontrollable by the state.
If they aren't Chinese agents I'm completely flummoxed as to how this community formed that's so incredibly pro china?
chaogomu 16 points 3 years ago
It's a form of brain rot when you hear the phrase "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and think that they're your actual friend, and not another potential enemy who just so happens to be in a position to take up the resources/attention of your main enemy.
Almost everyone agrees that capitalism is the most evil system ever created.
The part where we disagree is that the tankies think you need an authoritarian state to murder all the capitalist, and anyone sympathetic to capitalist ideals, and eventually anyone who disagrees with all the murder.
At that point, you have an elite class (the ruling dictator) and everyone else who either obey or die. That's not communism, that's feudalism with extra steps. Which coincidentally is also the endpoint of capitalism.
No, the correct way to spread communism and socialist ideals is via educating the masses until the masses demand it, and then it can only ever truly exist under an actual free and fair democracy.
Coincidentally, the first step in the process is the easiest to sell. Voting reform. Everyone knows that voting in a two party system sucks. It's how the rich maintain control of the government, it forces the people to choose the lesser evil and not the greater good. STAR voting is the answer.
That's step one. It lets us regain control of the government for the people. After that, we simply let the people decide, because the vast majority of people like left leaning policy. The two party system of plurality voting tricks people into voting against their own interests, despite how much they like any single policy.
And before anyone chimes in with Ranked Choice as an option. Real world elections with it have produced worse results than Plurality. It's about the single worst design for a voting system that you could have. A coin flip often produces a better result than Ranked Choice. Aside from the other faults of the system, Ballot Exhaustion is particularly evil. Up to 20% of votes cast in any given RCV election aren't counted in the final tally because of Exhaustion.
RCV actually sets voting reform efforts back. It actively hurts the cause because of how bad it is.
Anyway, that turned into, like, three different rants.
Fuckfuckmyfuckingass 2 points 3 years ago
Great points, I do love me a meandering rant! Could you explain more about STAR voting? From a skim of the wiki page it sounds basically how I understood rank choice voting to work.
I tend towards the more anarchist side of things. The hope of the people ever getting any meaningful control over the existing levers of power, without becoming that which they seek to destroy, seems like a fools errand. I tend to think a more pragmatic approach would be building real, positive, anti-capitalist, local communities that live like the world is dying, and work survive the death throws of the state. And also democratization of the workplace for the love of fuck!
What I really like so much about Lemmy is the apparent willingness of folks to have real honest discussions about things. Even agreeing to disagree. I am intelligent enough to have a vague understanding of how much shit I don't know, and that there is no end all, be all ideology. I just know that the world could be a damn sight better than those in charge believe it can be.
It would be unfortunate if some of the creators of Lemmy lacked the empathy and curiosity of it's members, and supposed reason for Lemmy's existence. I hope that isn't the case, but it seems, by virtue of the fediverse, to be ways of growing communities in spite of.
I do find it pretty amusing that the supposedly "CCP tankie agit-prop" instance isn't Lemmygrad, considering they literally have a fucking tank for a logo.
JoeKrogan 14 points 3 years ago
No idea why but on the other hand many people are pro US and they have interfered all over the world. Then there is the pro russian crowd and so on. As others have said thankfully a platform such as this gives space for all viewpoints and we can respectfully share different views.
deus 10 points 3 years ago
As someone living in a country once under a US-backed dictatorship, I welcome the arrival of a new superpower in town. Not that China is much better than the US but at least they should keep each other in check.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 5 points 3 years ago
We're currently in stage ????? of the "make the world like you by feeding them delicious Chinese food" plan
520 17 points 3 years ago
It's worth noting that a lot of Chinese citizenry have actually benefitted from the CCP in regards to the serious economic growth China has seen in the last few years. Or at least, a lot of the Chinese citizenry attribute the growth to the CCP, and it's understandable why.
There are a lot of people in China that genuinely like the CCP government, and not in a Stalin way where you only said so to avoid disappearing.
That's not to say the CCP aren't guilty of some serious crimes, but when you've got a large amount of people having somewhat recently gone from from poverty to middle class, you tend to get a few die-hard supporters.
livus 7 points 3 years ago
Yeah, the Little Pink are very real.
The post 80s reform saw a massive growth of the Chinese middle class, at a time when the Cultural Revolution was no longer talked about or taught in schools.
It's not that surprising what has happened.
islandmonkeee 2 points 3 years ago
Citizen Smith ain't dead yet!
Caoldence222 6 points 3 years ago path: 0 1095734 1096048 1168023, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 1
astral_avocado 2 points 3 years ago
EU
The .ml instances are financed by the EU? What are NLnet grants?
livus 5 points 3 years ago
No Chinese citizen would even be allowed to use Lemmy
Some Chinese netizans are used to climbing over the firewall. There's even a slang term for it, though I've forgotten what it is.
Patriotic young Chinese internet warriors are a massive cultural phenomenon. E.g the Little Pink Army.
postmateDumbass 2 points 3 years ago
Because the CCP is ensuring they have ways to influrnce citizens of other countries. Just like all modern intelligence states.
BelieveRevolt 0 points 3 years ago path: 0 1095734 1096048 1160548, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
arquebus_x -1 points 3 years ago
They're just dumb, typical tankies. It's a lot more common than you might think.
ilgrandelenin -3 points 3 years ago path: 0 1095734 1096048 1096533, hotness: undefined, score: -3, children: 0
lemmyshmemmy -5 points 3 years ago
I suspect the CCP has effective LLMs running coordinated campaigns on here and other social media. A downside of anonymous social media, it's hard to know who or what is voting/you're talking to.
astral_avocado 0 points 3 years ago
Now that's a conspiracy I can get behind
Silverseren 0 points 3 years ago
Reminds me of how SubscribeStar (an alternative to Patreon) is run by two Russians with kinda shady histories.
neblem 78 points 3 years ago
My understanding is that they migrated most of their political stuff to lemmygrad.ml, and lemmy.ml is a mostly a general instance with some pro-china tendencies. I have zero concerns for developer political ideologies on open source licensed projects with good licenses as long as they stay professional.
Nothing is stopping you from defederating from lemmy.ml on your own instance and/or creating a fork and doing nothing but rebranding it with proper attribution if it really bothers you that much (or use an alternate tool like kbin), but you should realize almost every software you use had at least someone with political ideologies you would disagree with make contributions somewhere in the stack.
Shadesto 11 points 3 years ago
It's important to note that Lemmy.ml is defederated from lemmygrad. So while there may be some of the same people involved, the instance as a whole is run correctly.
I can't really tell the truth behind all this drama, because there seems to be a pretty dedicated group of people trying to slander lemmy.ml, but I've never seen anything unreasonable out of them.
At this point, I honestly think it's a hit-squad paid by Reddit to discredit Lemmy.
FrankBullitt 73 points 3 years ago
Yeah, it's a learning moment for the fediverse and Lemmy in particular.
You know what would really trigger those folks? Create a Lemmy.trotsky, get half of lemmy.ml to migrate to .Trotsky and see them foaming. Ahah
FrankBullitt 13 points 3 years ago
https://espressostalinist.com/...
Not sure if you are aware, but the .ml derives from Marxism Leninism.
aloeha -2 points 3 years ago
I'm an ML myself so yes, I knew. And that's what I mean, I've never heard of an ML becoming a Trotskyist, so I don't know why someone would leave a .ml instance to join a .Trotsky instance.
astral_avocado -13 points 3 years ago
I guess at this point my main concern is the source code. If it gets to the point that they're trying to make Lemmy take part in the Great Firewall we should consider a fork!
And the other concern is how it looks. I think this should probably be more widely denounced by the Lemmy community because there's already liberals out there taking it as proof that all of Lemmy is compromised in some way.
HarkMahlberg 7 points 3 years ago
Changes are not made at will, they are submitted and have to be accepted by the project leader usually after being analyzed, both for bugs and intentional attempts to create vulnerabilities.
This is an excellent point - some open source projects like the Linux kernel (or adjacent projects) are populated by industry veterans and open source champions. They are very good at what they do.
Some of the fediverse projects are run by a handful of hobbyists and tinkerers, some are handled by a single project leader, others still by a single developer. Such projects are acutely vulnerable to malicious contributions disguised as assistance. A quite literal Trojan Horse.
Skepticpunk 2 points 3 years ago
the Chinese government is an active Linux contributor
Huh, that's interesting. They contribute anything notable?
astral_avocado -12 points 3 years ago
The difference between Linux and Lemmy is that Linux is majority controlled by people who don't don't deny genocide and excuse away an authoritarian government
sauerkraus 9 points 3 years ago
The source code can be forked. That particular issue is nothing to be concerned about.
HarkMahlberg 3 points 3 years ago
Well... all of Lemmy was compromised with a security vulnerability over the weekend lol. But I take it you mean compromised morally or politically. In that case, yeah forking's one way to solve the "optics" issue, with the caveat that you lose name recognition in the process.
Silverseren 57 points 3 years ago
I've always found tankies to be the most extreme example of being anti-socialism and anti-ML. Because do they really think Marx and Lenin would support these dictatorial (and still capitalist) human rights violating countries to be what their utopia is?
In a realistic comparison, Marx and Lenin would support European democracies before they supported trash like modern Russia and China (and don't even get me started on North Korea).
Prandom_returns 54 points 3 years ago
Yep. Some of the mods that mod 5+ communities are openly calling NATO fascist.
There's a lot of pro-china sentiment where users encourage people moving to china, denying Tianmen Square events, and encourage full annexation of Taiwan.
It's just lemmingrad 2.0
I block every .ml community on sight, as they're laced with tankie propaganda/agenda.
QueenAlucia 7 points 3 years ago
I'm new here, how do you block stuff from a specific instance?
Prandom_returns 7 points 3 years ago
Depending on what app you are using. I can select a post that comes from a community on an instance, and I can pick to either block the OP or the Community.
CamelCityCalamity 5 points 3 years ago
You can't, which is why they said "block any community".
JackBruhhh -20 points 3 years ago
People outside the west have different views on a military organisation led by colonialists who have a track record of invading and destroying the world? How can this be!
Prandom_returns 13 points 3 years ago
You can have a different view (which will probably align with russia's view), but calling it a fascist organisation is moronic.
"Destroying the world". LOL. Post-soviet countries would strongly disagree.
TimewornTraveler 0 points 3 years ago
American Internet MLs when someone defends colonization by criticizing the prior systems of the colonized people: "Let colonized people dedcide their own fate! >:( "
American Internet MLs when someone criticizes China's colonization of Tibet: "[5000 characters criticizing prior systems in Tibet]"
I just want some consistency. Why is it liberation when China does it to Tibet but colonization when America does it to Afghanistan/South America/everywhere else? Fuck em both bro
Also have you ever noticed that criticisms of Tibet's former systems always rely on the secondary source of The Timely Rain, an account written by foreign travelers in Tibet? (Or, as MLs might call someone who travels to Asia to do this today, written by "colonizers"?) Why is that perspective okay with you, enough to justify China's actions?
TimewornTraveler 1 point 3 years ago
""the WEST!""
BelieveRevolt -56 points 3 years ago path: 0 1158722 1160456, hotness: undefined, score: -56, children: 31
Prandom_returns 36 points 3 years ago
If you honestly think that modern day NATO is fascist, you're either uninformed, misinformed or a moron.
BelieveRevolt -29 points 3 years ago path: 0 1158722 1160456 1160842 1160980, hotness: undefined, score: -29, children: 22
Aceticon 32 points 3 years ago
By the very same "by association, present or historical" "logic" you could say that the whole of NATO is Feminist (because some heads of state are openly Feminist women), Machist (some are pretty machist men), impeccably fair Democracies (take your pick), Communist (take your pick of members which were once Communist), Dictatorships with a Theocratic leaning (ahem, Turkey), Rich (take your pick), Poor (take your pick), an association of Small Nations (take your pick), an association of Large nations (take your pick), Social Democrat (take your pick), Socialist (the very Portugal you mention is governed by a party called the Socialist Party), Dead (most founding head of state are dead by now), Alive (lots of living heads of state), Anti-Nazi (lots of member states fough the Nazis), Pro-Nazi (some member states were Nazi), Mountainous (take your pick), Flat (ahem, The Netherlands) and so on.
This is because "by association" "arguments" just as the one which is the cornerstone of your comment are complete total jokes in logical terms - you can't pick a trait of one member (worse, one it had long ago and doesn't have anymore) and claim that "they're all like that".
Shit, that's exactly the kind of "argument" the far-right newspapers in the UK use to demonize the poor: pick a single poor person who has abused the social security safety net and claim that "the poor" are all like that.
If you trully believe that line of yours, you're either totally brainwashed or a moron (the latter very much in the medical sense).
Prandom_returns 9 points 3 years ago path: 0 1158722 1160456 1160842 1160980 1161021, hotness: undefined, score: 9, children: 12
Maggoty -2 points 3 years ago
The same Iraqis that no longer have to worry about Saddam doing stupid shit? Who can now elect their leaders again? They don't think the US is the best but they sure aren't in the same category as the Serbians.
Anti US people are so used to the US fucking up they forget that we actually do a good every now and then.
Aceticon 22 points 3 years ago
And 1974, post-Revolution, Portugal, which was naturally very leftwing (it came pretty close to becoming a Communist dictatorship), could've and yet didn't left.
It's a ridiculously uniformed and childishly-simplist opinion (or just straightforward astroturfing paid by either the Putin or the CCP dictatorships) to claim that all NATO is Fascist by pointing out that more than half a century ago one of its founder (which by now has been a Democracy for almost half a century) was under the yolk of a Fascist Dictatorship hence all NATO was and is Fascist.
It's funny how "guilt by association" and "the present is the same as the past" are core argument techniques of autoritarian lapdogs on both the Left and the Right.
BelieveRevolt 2 points 3 years ago path: 0 1158722 1160456 1166702 1178615, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 1
Aceticon 1 point 3 years ago
Because it's a military, not political, alliance.
"Being a Democracy" is not a significant military criteria.
It's you who are comming up with your own "selection criteria" which you then claim NATO is supposed to follow (even though the criteria you made up at times go against NATO's very clearly and firmly stated aims), and then arguing that they don't follow your criteria hence are whatever you feel like to label those who don't strictly follow criteria you decided they're suppose to follow.
That fantastic and circular line of thinking is all you, and quite unrelated to the real world.
suth 2 points 3 years ago
I've already seen the popular "unpopular" opinions got carried over from Reddit, so I'm glad to see this tradition got carried over too! Now we just need the OOTL and ELI5 posts from people who clearly understand something and just need an excuse to post a news article.
astral_avocado -12 points 3 years ago
Yeah my bad, I won't do it again but I'd prefer this stayed up for visibility
astral_avocado -4 points 3 years ago
I didn't know about it and we currently have an influx of new users, most people here are appreciative of it except for you brain dead .ml users. Why don't you stay off lemmy.world since you disagree with us so hard
Maggoty 42 points 3 years ago
Those devs have also pointed out that the Fediverse and Lemmy make it possible for you to have an instance with the exact opposite position. And there's nothing they can do about it.
This really isn't the scandal people want it to be. Except maybe reddit employees?
astral_avocado 0 points 3 years ago
I get that of course, but a lot of people are going to be put off that the main dev is a genocide denier, there's no way around that. I've seen mastodon posts of activists specifically telling people to not use Lemmy for that reason. In fact it's equivalent to the attitude I see around here of people saying we need to silence fascists at all costs. They just see it as a scarlet mark on the whole endeavor.
We need a way to answer that while making people aware Lemmy is designed so that it doesn't matter.
I recognize my post didn't really convey that. I dunno, I'm not terribly charismatic.
PutangInaMo 1 point 3 years ago
This may be a bad take but... with all the evil the Nazis caused, we gladly took their science and scientists after we beat the shit out of them.
astral_avocado 1 point 3 years ago
40s-50s was a wild time
astral_avocado 6 points 3 years ago
Lol oh yeah
Edit: hey I can comment again
Black_Gulaman 27 points 3 years ago
TIL, you're late to the party.
Everybody knows.
TheMauveAvenger 4 points 3 years ago
Beehaw is just another flavor of echo chamber.
Gray 22 points 3 years ago
Thank you for calling attention to this! I've been trying to raise awareness about why people should avoid lemmy.ml like the plague. My first post on Lemmy was on this thread created by the same person that made the post you linked to. I had noticed the mod action they called out where someone was banned for posting an Axios article about the Chinese succession plan for the reason of "Orientalism". I appreciate that Lemmy is decentralized and that at the end of the day your server admin matters first and foremost, but I do really hope the views of those top devs never lead to problems with the software itself. At least it's all open source and they would be called out if they ever tried anything shady.
dangblingus 20 points 3 years ago
We've been in a post-truth era now for a number of years. There's nothing that can be done. China has over a billion people. If they want propaganda bots to saturate the internet, they got it. Just keep promoting internet safety, critical media thinking skills, and real historical facts.
astral_avocado 6 points 3 years ago
Very true, I like the cut off your jib
Aatube 13 points 3 years ago
Not really. Lemmy.ml is the result of the creation of Lemmy. The restrictions of genzedong may have influenced the creation but you can’t equate that to being a direct product, and nowhere in the thread talks about that. A more apt title is “TIL the top admins of lemmy.ml who are also top devs of Lemmy are pro-CCP” (add “shill” to the end if you want). This may be a little willy-nilly but this is TIL where facts should be objective and links should be informative.
gmtom 8 points 3 years ago
Have people verified the claims? none of the screenshots in the original post work for me. so just wondering if anyones actually double checked the claims or if we're just accepting it as true because it fits what we think about "tankies"?
Reliant1087 13 points 3 years ago
I've directly asked one of the devs. If you look at their GitHub you can see a collection of essays one of the devs have written. It's pretty openly displayed actually.
Justdaveisfine 14 points 3 years ago path: 0 1158579 1170534 1171359 1173179, hotness: undefined, score: 14, children: 1
ContentGiraffe 3 points 3 years ago
These are actually really interesting. Thanks for sharing
Prandom_returns 7 points 3 years ago
I have experienced it myself. I was also blocked from "memes" for mentioning a couple of "nono for commie" things, and my comments where removed by a mod.
rockSlayer 7 points 3 years ago
All I see in that source is ml living up to it's acronym. Congratulations, you learned that people that believe in FOSS also tend to be leftists, and in this case Marxist-Leninists. I don't particularly agree with how they choose to handle moderation and I'm definitely not a ML, but you don't need to make that your local instance.
astral_avocado 28 points 3 years ago
The leftists I know are under no impression that the Chinese government isn't under a brutal authoritarian rule, i think this is a petty novel strain. Why does being a Marxist-leninisy necessitate defending and denying state atrocities?
rockSlayer 9 points 3 years ago
It doesn't, ML is based on the philosophy of primarily Lenin (hence the name) and is meant more as the political means of transitioning power from capitalism to the eventual anarcho-communist existence that will be enjoyed by all. In general, they don't defend the atrocities of ML states and are often the most critical of states like Cuba, Vietnam, the USSR, and China. I'm very skeptical of ML because it necessitates 1 party rule and I see all states as authoritarian, but claiming ML necessitates defending atrocities is a position of ignorance. It's like supporting the US, it doesn't mean people also support the genocide of latinos on our border.
lemmyshmemmy 6 points 3 years ago
Yeah... the CCP isn't communist anymore.
Silverseren 9 points 3 years ago
Heck, they're extremely capitalist. Just how many billionaires does China have right now?
astral_avocado 3 points 3 years ago
Yeah lol, smething that they won't ever admit to either
Prandom_returns -1 points 3 years ago
I think the meaning of words change with their usage.
It would be difficult to argue that the China Communist Party isn't Communist.
FaeDrifter 2 points 3 years ago
The CCP claims to be communist but acts like capitalists. IE a literal split between the ownership class (the people that own the capital) and the laboring class.
It's like a classic narcissist: says one thing, does another.
TimeSquirrel 4 points 3 years ago
Because they didn't arrive at leftism using their brains, they arrived at it because they wear cool uniforms and "USA/The West" bad. When every problem in the world boils down to that, it's easier than nuance.
yata 17 points 3 years ago
The majority of leftists aren't tankies. Tankies are an extreme fringe group of leftism that is even hardly leftist in its core beliefs on account of its support for authoritarian regimes everywhere as long as they are enemies of the US.
Noreia 7 points 3 years ago
China isn't marxist-leninist though, not even Maoist anymore since Deng Xiaoping took over. They are very much capitalist (otherwise they wouldn't try to undermine workers rights movements (gotta keep exploiting the proletariate for that sweet surplus value) and try to get rid of marxist and maoist student clubs etc)
preasket 7 points 3 years ago
Ok, I'm no longer gonna argue in this thread. It's filled with either keyboard warriors who haven't turned their gaze away from the monitor in years, enraged fools or actually malicious provocateurs. I believe I've made my points. Peace! ✌️
JehovahJoe 6 points 3 years ago
Someone please start a community for instance drama
VictorPrincipum 6 points 3 years ago
If you think lemmy.ml is bad, check out hexbear. It’s where r/CTH went after they got banned.
reagansrottencorpse 18 points 3 years ago
Thank you I've been trying to find chapo trap house
VictorPrincipum 8 points 3 years ago
Glad to help a fellow John Brown enthusiast. It also uses an older (custom?) version of lemmy, so it works in apps like Memmy or Lemmios
CamelCityCalamity 1 point 3 years ago
Deleted
radialmonster 1 point 3 years ago
When i first learned of lemmy i made an account there. i have since made an account on kbin.social. should i just delete my .ml account?
ndr 12 points 3 years ago
Deleting your account wouldn’t really change anything. There’s no reason to unless you have some very strong moral problem with being associated with them in any way.
By the way, you can definitely have a Lemmy account on a different instance, no need for kbin (unless you like it there, then that’s great). Their views shouldn’t have any effect on the other Lemmy instances.
Silverseren -1 points 3 years ago
Though it does seem good to be on a federated instance that has no direct affiliation (or control) by tankies.
HarkMahlberg 6 points 3 years ago
Never leave accounts open you don't plan to use. It becomes something a bad actor could take over.
astral_avocado 2 points 3 years ago
Did you hit the off switch on your brain and just ignore every comment there and here?
Skellybones -4 points 3 years ago
Fucking hell didn't think the ccp would follow is here. Thx for the info
MostlyBirds 32 points 3 years ago
Follow? Those admins literally created lemmy.
Black_Gulaman 4 points 3 years ago
You're the one who followed them here. You're using their creation. TIL i guess.
Korne127 -4 points 3 years ago
Guess why they made an alternative to Reddit… they were banned on it because of their views.
It’s kind of hard for me; I use and like Lemmy, but I can’t / don’t want to comment issues on their GitHub or do a pull request because helping them is just… iffy.
BelieveRevolt -6 points 3 years ago path: 0 1160433, hotness: undefined, score: -6, children: 0
Prandom_returns 3 points 3 years ago
Lmao this guy's comment history... Instablock.
astral_avocado 1 point 3 years ago
We all coom bro, I just do it on main
astral_avocado -1 points 3 years ago
Man, I had no idea there were so many weird fucking radical losers on Lemmy
astral_avocado 1 point 3 years ago
I think we should always care about mass genocide on specific cultural groups, the world cared about the Holocaust, or is that a "who cares" for that one too?
This is doubly true when a fascist regime is doing everything they can to pretend like it's not happening.
Just like I care about police brutality, and the mass Graves in Canadian schools, also because local governments are trying somewhat to cover them up. I also care about the genocide that happened in the 1900s in the Congo.
Isn't it crazy that I can care about human suffering?? Empathy is a wild thing.
astral_avocado 0 points 3 years ago
If you ever want to leave your insane echo chamber -- and I don't know how the fuck you got into it you deranged lunatic -- you should read "Tombstone" by Yang Jisheng. Millions dead from state enforced famine.
astral_avocado 0 points 3 years ago
Why don't you move there then? You wouldn't be able to browse nonsense like this lol. Wouldn't need to worry about information you don't like hearing because they would make sure you never hear it through their state controlled internet and media.
BaroqueInMind -10 points 3 years ago
Yeah. Fuck lemmy.ml I'm sticking with kbin. All the XSS hacks and heavy handed loser mods censoring discussions there put me off.
astral_avocado 31 points 3 years ago
Their denial of the Uyghur genocide and that it's a multi-nation spanning conspiracy to smear china is closer to the correct one?
I barely stated my positions, what do you think my position is besides that China is an authoritarian state?
astral_avocado 9 points 3 years ago
How did you even come to that opinion unless you're actively living in China? Actually even that doesn't make sense, if you lived in China you would quite literally be blocked from sites like this, and you would get a police visit if you tried.
ZeroCarbon 2 points 3 years ago
Not true bruv. I can access Lemmy just fine from China. Cheers
Aatube 1 point 3 years ago
That’s not what happens though, insert the nobody cares speech from Andor here and the closest thing they have to making VPNs illegal actually means that you can’t make unsanctioned private cables, satellites etc to access the internet
ablackcatstail -37 points 3 years ago
Do you have proof of this or are you simply disgruntled?
Seasoned_Greetings 39 points 3 years ago
One of fascism's biggest jobs is to cast doubt on the accusation. To downplay the notion that people should look at the circumstances to form their own opinions and to gaslight the uninformed into thinking it's just a coincidence or misrepresentation.
The fact is, if an administration team is censoring anti-china sentiment, they are either controlled by China or afraid of retaliation.
astral_avocado 25 points 3 years ago
lol, did you read anything in the linked thread??? Not one concerning thing in there huh?
Black_Gulaman 2 points 3 years ago
He's got redditism. Reading the title and nothing else. Then proceeds to post a clearly uninformed comment.
EnglishMobster 12 points 3 years ago
How about this?
Hey all, longtime Marxist-leninist, recorder of left audiobooks, and megathread shitposter here.
Posting this in light of a recent one week Reddit ban I earned for shitting on US police, as I'm sure many of us have gotten in recent weeks.
So I've spent the past few months working on a self hostable, federated, Reddit alternative called Lemmy, and it's pretty much ready to go. Unlike here we'd have ultimate control over all content, and would never have to self censor.
Obviously as communists, we agitate where the people are, so we should never abandon Reddit entirely, but it's been clear to all of us from day one, that communities like this stand on unsteady ground, and could be banned or quarantined at any moment by the white supremacist Reddit admins. This would be both a backup and a potentially better alternative. Moderation abilities are there, as well as a slur filter.
Raddle isn't an option obviously since it's run by this arch anti tankie scum, ziq.
I wanted to ask ppl here if they'd like me to host an instance, and mod all the current mods here.
Note the line: Obviously as communists, we agitate where the people are. I'm pretty left-leaning myself (I draw the line at authoritarianism though), but they're very open about using their platform to push an agenda. The instance that post mentions at the end became Lemmygrad. Lemmy.ml and Lemmygrad are the same people - the ".ml" in "lemmy.ml" even stands for "Marxist-Leninist".
I joined Lemmy.ml in 2020 after they made a (different) pitch to /r/linux... and left shortly afterward when I saw who ran it. Thankfully we have other options now (hello from Kbin!).
MostlyBirds 10 points 3 years ago
What proof do you need? Just go there and look, they're extremely open and explicit about it. What do you think the ml stands for?
ArcaneSlime 4 points 3 years ago
You new here? 2y ago those people were all there was here. It was impossible to get friends to join since those schizoids chased them all away, understandably so.
Deft -42 points 3 years ago
and reddit meta twitter etc are all pro-american who defend America's imperialism and war crimes.
soooo....
edit: imagine believing a platform many US representatives and other Western countries use is or was ever anti-american.
y'all forgive american crimes because china gives you a moral high ground while you're unaware of the american red scare propaganda still happening today. fucking morons
Seasoned_Greetings 52 points 3 years ago
You can disagree with how China is run without having to agree with what capitalism does. One evil does not justify another.
astral_avocado 9 points 3 years ago
Nobody is defending America this discussion isn't about America how fucking dense are you
Deft -5 points 3 years ago
youre pearl clutching over someone's upbringing/political leanings /who fuckin knows why they support that.
this person is involved with Lemmy, do you know how small lemmy is compared to basically anything? reddit, Twitter, ford f150 owners, Netflix subscribers.
there are people who are all sorts of political positions in any one of those listed above.
does that truly affect your day to day life? fuck no
this boohoo about these chinese ties are for pearl clutching pussies foh with your bullshit
yata 5 points 3 years ago
And this is the kind of strawman tankies always end up resorting to when being criticised for their support of authoritarian regimes.
No, criticism of China in no way means automatic support for the US, and the fact that you seem unaware of that shows everything about the foundation your beliefs are build upon.
Deft -3 points 3 years ago
eat ass ive seen this same thing brought up several times now. some admin or coders political crap is irrelevant especially when you consider everything else at play its fucking stupid.
fuck out of here shill
astral_avocado 35 points 3 years ago
You guys hit fast. It's funny how the CCP argument against any kind of criticism is always to point out Western flaws like we don't already do that enough! Grow a brain moron. That's called whataboutism, did your state provided handbook provide any other strategies?
Deft -1 points 3 years ago
*they are
i just find it very cute that anything china related is big spooky.
screams satanic panic, red scare, lavender scare bs
i don't live under china. why the fuck would i care what they do more than my own government??
my government imprisons more people than anyone in the world. my government is turning ever fascist and our police are only ever more militarized and useless for rhe common man. wages are struggling here. infrastructure is failing.
please tell me how i should care that some fuckin coders are associated with the Chinese government.
Deft -5 points 3 years ago
the west is more dangerous?
China might be more open and you might think they're more dangerous but i know which country has a more dangerous intelligence apparatus that absolutely has overthrown countries and left plenty in chaos.
y'all do not get the propaganda you consume smfh
astral_avocado 6 points 3 years ago
I don't give a shit about criticisms of America, why do you people always default to whataboutism. I can criticise america all day. The bottom line is that there are plenty of really bad things about China that a whole Lemmy instance worth of people are desperately trying to deny and explain away!
ConditionOverload 10 points 3 years ago
Soooo you still haven't defended your beliefs, that's what.
Deft -5 points 3 years ago
my belief is i live in America and so why do i care what the chinese government does so much when my own government is worse to me and for the people around me.
i don't have to defend shit. america is a bigger threat to my existence than china simple as.
astral_avocado -1 points 3 years ago
You're probably a white brogrammer with a 401k, get that persecution complex out of your ass, you're doing just peachy.
astral_avocado 8 points 3 years ago
What I'm curious about is why being pro Marxism-lenin for some reason in you people's minds necessarily translates to defending state atrocities no matter what?
And how have you read Twitter and Reddit and concluded that they're overwhelmingly "pro American"? You must be the first person in the history of the Twitter sphere that's interpreted the modern liberal movement in that way lmao
Silverseren 3 points 3 years ago
I mean, general Twitter is at this point just because the majority of people still on there are conservative idiots. But that's not really representative of any group outside of Twitter.
astral_avocado -1 points 3 years ago
Where are you even from
astral_avocado 4 points 3 years ago
It's always their go to defense, it's crazy to see how consistently they use it.
Deft -3 points 3 years ago
iT hAs To Be Ai!1!1!
fuck off idiot i live in America that government is more of a threat to me. handing financial collapse after financial collapse over to banks so citizens can foot the bill while melting away rights and allowing infrastructure to degrade.
y'all do not see anything china does america absolutely does the exact same shit. i live in america so they are worse. the bully on my block is worse than the boogeyman y'all keep crying about
Deft -4 points 3 years ago
America IS making a lot of mistakes and im more in danger from the American government than the Chinese government and truthfully at this point more of the world is at threat of America than from China.
also the fact y'all think the chinese government abd the American government are at odds and never work together is very funny. the intelligence agencies across the world are bros my friend
Skepticpunk 4 points 3 years ago
Did any of those sites ban people for criticizing the United States?
talkingcat 5 points 3 years ago
Eh, worse really, they give that data to cops
Deft 1 point 3 years ago
hahahahahaha you know they sell your data and fb has given information that lead to people being arrested for absolutely goofy shit like drug possession and abortions
so no they didnt do that, they do something worse
CountVon 4 points 3 years ago
Sooo, whataboutism doesn't actually win the argument, y'know.
Deft -5 points 3 years ago
what argument? y'all fuckin idiots
i live under one government, that one is the bigger threat to me. i also know that government illegally bombs countries, abuses pow, imprisons it's citizens illegally and runs a dangerous intelligence apparatus
funny how it starts to be unclear which country I'm talking about huh? like i said, i live under one of those governments. that one is the bigger threat to me.
thanks for using Leebra!
go to feed...
Good thing that what they are building is super transparent, open source and distributed. That critical post wasn’t even deleted.
As long as that remains the case, I’m happy that Lemmy is a place where you can find all kinds of views represented.
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