If the only thing Biden ever does is keep Trump from office it will be a net win.
That post seems to be missing.
HappycamperNZ 123 points 3 years ago
Psychodelic 20 points 3 years ago
The IRA and the CHIPS Act were pretty legit - granted, I think trump might've passed some version of the CHIPS act as well. Seems like a no-brainer, imo, but the one that did it gets the credit!
assassin_aragorn 5 points 3 years ago
The IRA even addresses the corporate tax loopholes in a clever way. There's a minimum tax that they still have to pay even if their normal tax burden comes out to $0. I think it's like 15%.
vaultdweller013 -3 points 3 years ago
What do you mean by IRA like I know Biden is of Irish descent and I would whole heartedly support an American backed IRA but I doubt thats what happened.
squeezeyerbawdy 23 points 3 years ago
The Inflation Reduction Act- link to one page summary
IntangibleSloth 8 points 3 years ago
It's the "Inflation Reduction Act"
TokenBoomer -3 points 3 years ago
I’m not sure the ends justify the means.
BearGun 3 points 3 years ago
? There are no "means". all you can do is vote, and then something is going to happen depending on who wins. It's not "do bad thing to get good result", it's "do neutral thing to get less bad result" or "do nothing to get shite result".
TokenBoomer 1 point 3 years ago
Is voting not a means to elect Joe Biden to prevent Trump?
I don’t think the Palestinians suffering a genocide will see the “means” of voting for Biden as #neutral. This is the disconnect, many of us are selfishly more concerned about our menial lives than we are for people across the world; when the reality is we are no more important than they are. Either we’re all humans, or none of us are.
jballs 110 points 3 years ago
Project 2025 is a conservative plan to immediately reshape the executive branch and replace most people with Trump loyalists immediately if he wins. It includes dismantling the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, because while Republicans like to claim to be tough on crime, they really don't like an independently functioning Justice Department that has shown their leader to be a criminal.
BlackPenguins 7 points 3 years ago
Remember this is essentially what the dictator of China did to seize power in the 2000s. Ascend the ranks and replace people who didn't agree with him.
AMDIsOurLord -19 points 3 years ago path: 0 8842427 8847008 8848107 8856113, hotness: undefined, score: -19, children: 2
Gabu 13 points 3 years ago
You incorrectly assume the rich fucks care. They'd just reform into an underground group no longer bound to any pesky laws stopping them from killing whoever they want at any time.
Kbin_space_program 43 points 3 years ago
A maga movement to seize power and turn the US into a theocratic dictatorship.
Ultragigagigantic 4 points 3 years ago
Yet another reason the working class must NEVER disarm.
Cruxifux 2 points 3 years ago
Yeah. Although I doubt Americans will ever have the balls to actually properly revolt. By the time it would get bad enough for them to actually consider taking up arms seriously there will be robot dog armies and it will be moot.
I hope I’m wrong though.
Linkerbaan -53 points 3 years ago
The same fearmongering we heard in 2016 and 2020. You must save Democracy for the 12th year in a row by voting Democrat!!
After Trump dies some other Republican will take over that says crazier shit and then you must keep saving Demoracy by always voting Democrat. Never vote third party.
Cruxifux 9 points 3 years ago
Well historically I’ve voted independent. I’m Canadian, but we have similar party issues.
Honestly seeing shit like this though, if it really is just fearmongering, it’s fucking working. This shit looks horrifying to me, I’d probably end up voting for Biden just to not let trump in. And I fucking hate Biden.
Ultragigagigantic 1 point 3 years ago
Canadian
Oh boy. How about the recent fumble of electoral reform by the Liberal party in Canada eh?
"Oopsie poopsie, now you HAVE TO vote for us or yous gets the conservatives again! LOL!"
Linkerbaan -27 points 3 years ago
Trump already won in 2016 and the world didn't end back then. It's not going to be better than Biden but it sure as hell isn't going to be as bad as people here make it out to be.
Ensign_Crab 6 points 3 years ago
The line is wearing thin, since democracy keeps being in greater peril even when we elect Democratic majorities.
Democrats would rather protect the filibuster than democracy.
Ultragigagigantic 2 points 3 years ago
Pass electoral reform in your state first, then you can vote third party with zero chance of a spoiler effect.
Check out a video on First Past the Post voting if you'd like to learn more.
bigMouthCommie -73 points 3 years ago
a boogeyman
alternative_factor 48 points 3 years ago
Don't worry. I'm sure they don't really mean to install Trump as the president for life, make LGBTQ+ illegal, instill Christianty as the state religion, deploy the military for law enforcement, etc, etc. Hitler didn't REALLY mean he was gonna kill millions of people!
Pan_Ziemniak 22 points 3 years ago
Its not, but plenty of Lemmy accounts are running around with a vested interest of convincing one and all that Biden and Dump are the exact same candidate and not voting is the answer. Its why theyll spam anything and everything about the Gaza genocide to the front page while not so sneakily inserting comments like this or, "gEnOciDe JoE" in the middle of it all.
bigMouthCommie -12 points 3 years ago
they couldn't keep bush 1 in office, no one takes their economic freedom index seriously, they didn't stop Obamacare... they're a joke.
Ultragigagigantic 1 point 3 years ago
Possible genocide in the USA should one of the two viable presidential candidates gets elected?
Will the democrats stop pursuing gun control considering this imminent threat of genocide?
SocialistRA.org
index -2 points 3 years ago
I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
Instead of picking between a genocide and another you should just vote for someone else and don't support any criminal.
assassin_aragorn 2 points 3 years ago
Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
If you don't want to vote for a genocide apologist, you basically can't vote.
bigMouthCommie -1 points 3 years ago
she called the invasion illegal, and the only extent to which your comment is correct, cornel west agrees with **that**.
assassin_aragorn 2 points 3 years ago
I've responded to your other comment.
bigMouthCommie -1 points 3 years ago
>Stein says that Russia had no other choice but to invade Ukraine and commit genocide there, and Cornel West has a similar position I believe.
neither of them said this. your comment is straight misinformation.
assassin_aragorn 3 points 3 years ago
path: 0 8842427 8877685 8893792 8893807 8894562, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 13
"So yes, Russia illegally invaded Ukraine – but did so with a gun to its head, or in this case, nuclear-compatible missiles. Compared to the US mobilization for immediate nuclear war when roles were reversed w Russian nukes in Cuba, this response was relatively moderate."
She's went with the old "but NATO would be right there!" argument, which is pro imperialist apologia.
EDIT: I forgot Dr. West.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/...
"When it comes to Ukraine, we must grasp the implications of NATO expansion and its potential to escalate into a catastrophic conflict,” West stated. He called for an end to the war in Ukraine and urged diplomatic negotiations to ensure both Russian security and Ukrainian freedom."
Once again, a pro imperialist argument that Ukraine isn't allowed to do what it wants because it would piss off it's former colonizer. And a pro imperialist argument that we know better than Ukraine and they should stop fighting because we said so, even though they want to keep fighting.
ivanafterall 87 points 3 years ago
Damn, that's at least a full step above a "Huh" with an inquisitively arched eyebrow.
EdibleFriend 41 points 3 years ago
His finger is dangerously close to wagging.
EdibleFriend 7 points 3 years ago
I don't know if he'd go THAT far.
Fridgeratr 65 points 3 years ago
You know what would aid Gaza? Not giving money and weapons to the people blowing them up
lennybird 18 points 3 years ago
Wrote this before and I'll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that's the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn't just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn't hear the words, "indiscriminate bombing" from Trump's facial sphincter.
abbotsbury 17 points 3 years ago
Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
So the choices are siding with genocide, and merely being accused of being pro-Hamas?
Seems like a clear choice, since accusations of being pro-Hamas get flung around for merely wanting to genocide Palestinians just more slowly.
lennybird -5 points 3 years ago
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
TokenBoomer 15 points 3 years ago
It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s
assassin_aragorn 2 points 3 years ago
This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide
Arguably this is because he didn't ignore the Bosniak genocide but then NATO was criticized for getting involved.
It's my personal belief that we should intervene militarily to stop genocides, but there's influential "leftist" thinkers who seem to disagree. Some will still say the US shouldn't have gotten involved with Kosovo, and I believe Chomsky notoriously denied the Cambodian genocide was even happening.
Of course, the right answer is to say fuck these people and get involved anyway. We shouldn't bow to political disagreement when it comes to stopping genocides.
lennybird -5 points 3 years ago
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
goferking0 6 points 3 years ago
Oh so then genocide is okay as long as it let's you win an election?
TokenBoomer 3 points 3 years ago
Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than an election. If LBJ had taken your advice, Civil Rights would never have happened in America.
A brilliant political analyst, Johnson foresaw the consequences of his civil rights legislation on the day he signed it into law. He is said to have remarked: “We’ve lost the south for a generation.” historical data
rottingleaf 1 point 3 years ago
with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel
This is false, they are split and it's much fewer votes to be lost. Maybe none, maybe even some gained.
go_go_gadget 11 points 3 years ago
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Just scream "vote blue no matter who" at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I'm sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we're fucked anyway. Even if you're optimistic and say "No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!" Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That's right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let's get it over with.
agitatedpotato 10 points 3 years ago
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can't "vote blue no matter who" those types, they'll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We're nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that's why things like Malcolm X's quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it's like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that's a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there's a path forward through the democratic party, it's eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don't think 'progressive issues' like 'stop killing the environment before we all die' have the time necessary to go the same route that's been taken from Malcolm X to now.
lennybird -3 points 3 years ago
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it's far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I'm all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn't change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
go_go_gadget 6 points 3 years ago
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can't be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Maggoty 5 points 3 years ago
Then they're shit at their jobs. This is public research polling, which usually lags behind internal private research.
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you're going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you're illegally sending arms to.
Maggoty 11 points 3 years ago
It would not be the end for Biden. That's hyperbole. Also why are we pressuring anti genocide people to come out and vote regardless, but taking it for granted that pro genocide people can't be pressured at all.
You know who you're never going to get to vote for Biden again? The Muslim communities that are actually in mourning right now because they know people dying in Gaza. The same ones that are key voting groups in the Rust Belt. Which is the same area that Trump used to win in 2016.
The Republicans are already calling him terrorist pedophile. Doing something to stop the GOP from running baseless attack ads is useless.
The only one trying to lose this election is Biden. There are legions of progressives ready to hold their noses and vote for him. But he keeps running to the right. And we'll keep staying home.
lennybird 1 point 3 years ago
You're saying he'd be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can't agree with that. He'd be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn't just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He's doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He's completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he'd be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn't any more that needs to be said. It's holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
archomrade 7 points 3 years ago
These are his 'only' choices only because identifying the broader issue of Israeli occupation and settlement (the core complaints of Palestinians and the reason why Hamas exists) puts at risk US interests in the region - namely Israel's projection of strength throughout the middle east.
The protection of US neo-colonial and imperial interests is the reason why Biden is in a tough position, and the reason why leftists will never be satisfied by stern words by Biden.
olivebranch 5 points 3 years ago
Oh no, he will be accused of being pro-Hamas. Just like when you criritize him you are accused of being pro-Trump, or if you critize evil NATO countries are doing, you are called pro-Russian. If people are that stupid to not see this clear tactic that everyone who critiques me must support my enemies, then you should maybe they shouldn't use the same tactic when it suits them.
lennybird -1 points 3 years ago
It's a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift... As has already occurred.
I don't give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they're voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you're smarter.
dumpsterlid 1 point 3 years ago
It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.
It is clear as day that the only thing actually making Biden think twice about unconditionally supporting the mass slaughter of Palestinians is that he might actually lose the election because his opinions are so unpopular and brutal on the Palestinian genocide.
Right now is THE TIME to grind everything about the Democratic Party to a halt until Biden gets the message that halting the supply of weapons to an ongoing genocide is a non-negotiable aspect of getting leftist (and muslim) voters. He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.
olivebranch 0 points 3 years ago
- They don't shift policies, they shift marketing. They will continue to support Israel because they are treating you with Trump and you have to vote for them whatever they do. So change is never going to happen.
- Either vote third party or don't waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
scorpious 1 point 3 years ago
You know what would really, really aid Gaza?
Hamas releasing all hostages in exchange for a cease-fire.
But they won’t. The PR bonanza — successful, by the sound of apparently ~99% of this community — at the expense of civilian innocents has been too good to stop anything, yet.
UnpluggedFridge 64 points 3 years ago
I am really disappointed with the discourse concerning Biden's handling of the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone is acting like Biden invented our alliance with Israel and is somehow personally responsible for our support of Israel. Geopolitical alliances are complicated matters that touch everything from international reputation to national security. They are fostered over decades. We have obligations to Israel that precede Biden and the recent conflict.
I understand the moral positions people are taking, and I agree that a genocide is taking place. But with anything geopolitical, these issues must be approached without hard lines and moral absolutism, because those ideals are what both sides are using to justify the atrocities we are witnessing. They both feel morally justified, and that the other side has crossed some hard lines. That is how diplomacy breaks down.
Those of you that want to see an end to the conflict need to understand that the official US position at this moment is aligned with you. But so many of you are proposing "simple" solutions that will not achieve that outcome. If we end support for Israel, they will not stop the genocide. What we will lose is leverage in negotiating peace and we will weaken the alliance with Israel, and the genocide will continue unhindered by US calls for restraint. You may argue that Israel relies on this alliance for security, and that is true, but you assume that other super powers would not jump at the chance to replace the US as a close ally to a nuclear power in the middle east.
Let's not forget how rash reactionary approaches to geopolitics threatened the NATO alliance during the Trump presidency. Our allies are already doubting if the US will honor the treaty, and this doubt extends to Taiwan, too. Weakening these alliances gives power to our enemies, full stop. Do you want to see war break out in the Pacific? Russia to expand its empire eastward? The Israel-Palestine conflict to extend to other Arab nations? Damaging these alliances will cause more war, not less.
Outrage against Israel is justified. But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
index 33 points 3 years ago
But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
There's a genocide happening right now with USA support where thousand of childrens have already been murdered. Israel is bombing neighbor countries and the whole middle east is boiling as a result. They are not seeking diplomacy they are seeking war.
UnpluggedFridge 17 points 3 years ago
So we should abandon diplomacy precisely when it is needed most? When we withdraw our support and Iran and Egypt join the conflict, will it be easier to stomach the killing of even more children in more nations? After we cede our influence in the middle east and China expands its influence to fill the vacuum, we will be able to honor our treaty with Taiwan after an emboldened China begins bombing and killing their children?
This is the macabre calculus of geopolitics. This is the risk of reactionary policy. All of this is a hypothetical worse case scenario, but one thing is certain: if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
index 15 points 3 years ago
diplomacy
To send israel government "whatever it needs" and additional aid is the opposite of diplomacy. The really reason they are getting away with a genocide is because they have the west backing.
There's a genocide happening right now under your nose where thousand of kids are getting killed, this is already the worst case scenario. They are doing exactly what they want to do, they are not seeking diplomacy they want war.
Xanis -5 points 3 years ago
I think...this is more complicated than a clear cut black and white choice. Not killing is clearly the correct response. Thing is how do we get there? Do we attempt to send in troops to police a location half a planet away? You know people will support that while also pointing out other conflicts we should be "dealing with" and pointing casually to situations we've made usually worse by stepping into.
That's not really the point though. The point is the support being given.
I agree that the sales of arms to any institution inflicting harm on another is, at the absolute best, a grey area on a good day. It seems to me though that in a conflict that is powered by ideology, this legitimately makes no real difference. It will happen whether we break off the relationship or not. Because of this, it is best to attempt to utilize that relationship to attempt to diplomatically stop the conflict. The alternatives are send in forces which will increase regional political strain and possibly ignite a larger conflict, or do absolutely, irrefutably nothing.
If there is a fourth decision that leads to a better outcome I am not wise enough to see it. What I do understand is that all relationships require some give in order to have some take. I don't agree with any weapons being sent over, though I do believe they made zero real impact on the result. This was going to happen and I feel attempting to stop it without escalation was the right choice, because it usually is the right choice.
Anyway, chances are the situation is far more complex than we realize. 50/50 on me being wrong, which is fine, opinions can change. Diplomacy should always take precedence over added conflict though.
zerog_bandit -9 points 3 years ago
Imagine being so psychotic that you pretend 10/7 didn't happen.
vegantomato 9 points 3 years ago path: 0 8876780 8877643 8878045 8880103, hotness: undefined, score: 9, children: 0
CptEnder 3 points 3 years ago
You just stated the point of OPs post. It's not like when we sent arms to them since the 80s Biden was suddenly like "ok go kill babies". We should definitely suspend future transactions until at least the end of the current government term though. This whole US is equally responsible is a bit much though.
Gradually_Adjusting 16 points 3 years ago
I'm never leaving lemmy. I love the way it's common to see normal sane views being widely accepted. I can breathe here.
Maggoty 8 points 3 years ago
This is one of those ones that sounds rational but really isn't.
Nobody said we have to leave Israel completely in the wind. They just want weapons deliveries to stop. Other countries aren't worried about Democrats holding their alliances. They're worried the Democrats are following the Republicans down the hole and supporting extreme religious parties. You show your allies you value them by listening to them, not by vetoing their anti starvation measures in the UN for several months.
assassin_aragorn -2 points 3 years ago
Eh there's plenty of people who want to completely abandon Israel, and I'm honestly sympathetic to their viewpoint. There's definitely people who think any violence against Israeli civilians is justified, although they're usually heavily downvoted.
I think the comment is perfectly rational when you consider these other comments.
SoleInvictus 4 points 3 years ago
It's really refreshing. We do have our share of crazies, as my block list can attest, but for the most part people are willing to accept that sometimes situations can be really complicated.
CosmicCleric 1 point 3 years ago
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted.
A lot of astroturfing bots though. :/
Gradually_Adjusting 1 point 3 years ago
Oh?
CosmicCleric 1 point 3 years ago
Ohh.
assassin_aragorn 1 point 3 years ago
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted. Very few people have a "bomb, baby, bomb!" approach. We largely agree that this violence is a tragic genocide and needs to stop. But we also understand the political reality in the US, and what our options are. And I think people have done a good job of successfully bringing Biden around on this.
CosmicCleric 2 points 3 years ago
What I really like about here is that nuance is understood and accepted.
Yeahhhh, about that, ...
Maggoty 15 points 3 years ago
If genocide isn't a red line for sending military aid then our alliances are already useless. We are the country and the country is us; not some third entity. So a moral failure of this magnitude being forced on us "for the good of our country" just opens the door to more moral failures. And we're the ones that will have to live in that system.
Furthermore, allies who do have moral standards are now looking at us wondering if our moral failures will extend to keeping our word when it's not a country that's entangled itself with our religious conservatives. They are very aware of why we support Israel. And very aware that they do not share Israel's unique political position.
It's that enough big picture stuff for you or would like to attempt to rationalize sending weapons to a genocidal regime some more?
rottingleaf 4 points 3 years ago
Also a genocide is basically something where all kinds of crime are encompassed. Keeping an alliance despite genocide, maybe counterintuitively, makes one less trustworthy of an ally, because an alliance is an agreement, a contract to be held in good faith. There were obligations and agreements taken to not partake in such things, some even directly to the victims.
olivebranch 8 points 3 years ago
Biden didn't invent the alliance to Israel, but when the conflict increased during his term he side-stepped congress to give weapons to them faster, so they can kill more civilians as quick as possible.
Don't excuse for what he has done. Biden is a war criminal. And having NATO, most powerful minitarly alliance in the World, threatened is no comparison to genocide in Gaza. NATO is a problem just as well, but Israel needs to be stopped ASAP.
BleatingZombie 1 point 3 years ago
Slaughter all genocidists and eat the rich
hark 0 points 3 years ago
Biden did not invent our alliance with israel, but he certainly has strongly supported it for decades and decades: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs
Calling the situation complicated and saying there is a lot of nuance has often been used as a cover for israel's campaign of terrorism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and now full-speed mask-off genocide. The official US position amounts to nothing because it's two-faced. Biden will claim he is doing what he can while he bypasses congress and otherwise sneaks weapons to israel to continue the genocide. You ask about theoretical wars while downplaying a genocide happening right now. Somehow you think caring about genocide is rash, but being paranoid about imaginary wars is rational. I don't know what your intentions are, but your post sounds like a PR piece, urging us to stay calm and take things slow so that israel can complete its mission of genocide in peace.
Son_of_dad -20 points 3 years ago
It's funny cause as far as I can tell, Americans are the ones pretending to suddenly care about Arabs.
Shyfer 34 points 3 years ago
What a strange comment. They're being genocided. I'm imagining someone in WW2 being like "well now you suddenly care about Jews when you find out the holocaust is happening", as if that was a bad thing.
beardown 3 points 3 years ago
It is a bad thing, because it correctly indicates that those people didn't care about the creation and growth of the social conditions that caused that genocide in the first place.
Gaza didn't turn into a killing field and prison overnight. This has been designed for decades by Israel. We are all culpable fools for allowing it to ever deteriorate to this point
Shyfer 4 points 3 years ago
That's true. And personally I feel really bad that I was only aware of the history of this conflict very recently, too. But it's good that people are changing their minds and opening their eyes. We shouldn't shame them, but pat them on the backs for coming around. Keep in mind that the US especially has been inundated with a crazy amount of propaganda surrounding Israel for a long time. Lots of these latecomers are victims, not willingly ignorant. People have spent millions of dollars lobbying to keep it that way. (Not just Jewish people, it's not some conspiratorial Jewish cabal before the wrong type of poeple jump on agreeing with my comment lol. The military industrial complex is involved and lots of other actors interested in Middle Eastern affairs and Christian zealotry.)
rottingleaf 1 point 3 years ago
I was sort of a benevolent fascist on the issue - I liked the idea of Jews returning to Israel after many centuries and having their state there, but I considered Israeli control over any territory not populated by its citizens to be wrong and cruel.
So I thought that Israel should clearly and unambiguously annex what it wants with giving citizenship to all people there, and GTFO from other territories. Naturally the choice being a compromise between the amount of new Arab voters and citizens they want to get on and the territory they want.
Which would really be the optimal solution for them, if we drop morals, only they are fascists without any kind of "benevolent" part. I even think the cruelty is the main goal.
Israelis have that inferiority complex of not being real West Asian people culturally. The ridiculous way they talk about "that's how things are done in the Middle-East" etc is the most obvious sign of this. They want to show that cruelty to feel that they are the real thing and not the fake nation they are in fact.
nondescripthandle 5 points 3 years ago
Americans have cared about arabs one way or the other since 2001, we had wars over this, we took in refugees and interpreters. No one older than 12 thinks this is sudden.
Jordan_U 1 point 3 years ago
It's a stretch to say that going to war in the middle east indicated "care" about/for Arab people.
Also, I haven't checked but I'd bet good money that we've gone back on more promises than we've actually honored WRT interpreters.
Meaning, to be clear:
We've promised a lot of interpreters U.S. visas / citizenship if they helped us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and have probably blocked more from entry to the U.S. than we have allowed.
That is utterly fucked up, and I don't see why anyone would trust such promises from the U.S. in the future.
givesomefucks 46 points 3 years ago
"They have a point," Biden said after the protesters were escorted out. "We need to get a lot more care into Gaza."
They wouldn't need it as badly if someone didn't go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA...
Still, the Biden administration decided to pause funding, and other big donors did the same. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, says she understands that UNRWA is the only international organization with the capacity to help deliver food, flour and fuel to Palestinians in Gaza, but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.
And even after we found out the allegations were bullshit and confessions were after torture, both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.
Biden is literally responsible for this, but is acting like it's just some random thing and maybe he'll help out.
Rentlar 41 points 3 years ago
You're not entirely wrong, but Biden has bipartisan backing on this as it's part of the whole funding bill, which makes most of the repesentatives and senators complicit with Biden which this bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
Still, like how a massive frigate turns slowly, the actions of the State Department are showing a change of tune, and the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel's genocide. The first steps are to abstain from ceasefire resolutions and then to give the protestors attention and credibility. There are many more steps to go.
nednobbins 21 points 3 years ago
I'd really like to believe that but the cynic in me expects that as soon as Israel gets done with their genocide campaign they'll pretend that they've turned a new leaf and all funding and military assistance will resume as though nothing had happened. There will be no lasting consequences for Israel's actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
NoneOfUrBusiness 9 points 3 years ago
There will be no lasting consequences for Israel’s actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
Not concrete political action no, but make no mistake Israel has lost a lot of international support in this war, and support for them is now more concentrated among older people. I'll be cautiously hopeful that we'll see real change from the West in the next 20 or so years as the older generations die off and more people grow up hearing about Israel committing their second genocide.
nednobbins 1 point 3 years ago
I hope you're right.
alternative_factor 21 points 3 years ago
Republicans are always gonna disrupt any real action anyway, they are full mask-off on the Christian nationalism thing and believe they must support Isreal 100% no matter what to make jesus come back.
crusa187 5 points 3 years ago
nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide
The US is doing far more than covering for it, we are enabling it via massive funding and contributing the very bombs being used to decimate Gaza and murder 10s of thousands of civilians. Biden’s willingness to let Bibi order us around and use us as cover is absolutely pathetic - Biden, and by proxy the US, are completely captured by the far-right extremist government of a foreign nation state. This is the weakest posturing imaginable for a world leader, and it’s entirely because Biden is a genocidal Zionist freak.
“Bipartisan backing” in DC means one thing only - Congress is getting paid. It’s gross that AIPAC can buy air cover for a genocide so easily, but such is the extent of corruption in the US.
We are 6 months into this ethnic cleansing, and these baby steps are not nearly enough at this juncture. For fuck’s sake even Trump beat Biden to the natural conclusion of demanding Israel put a stop to this. The bar is so low it’s literally on the ground and Biden just faceplants in front of it. Pathetic.
Ultragigagigantic 3 points 3 years ago
"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail
givesomefucks 2 points 3 years ago
bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
You forgot banning aid to UNRWA....
the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide.
Voters are, and have been.
But can you name a Dem in a party leadership position that doesn't take AIPAC money?
There are many more steps to go.
That's what they told FDR 80 years ago when he was trying to get universal healthcare past a Dem controlled Congress...
There's so many steps left to go, it's functionally infinite. Because Republicans take more steps back then Dems take forward.
Biden spent a billion dollars in 2020 to just barely convince voters he was better than trump. I don't know you, but if you had a billion dollar campaign, I bet you could have wiped the floor with trump.
roguetrick 3 points 3 years ago
Wait are we electing @rentlar as the Lemmy candidate? I dunno if they're eligible.
givesomefucks -4 points 3 years ago
When the only other two options can't crack 33% approval, a random unknown person is kind of a shoe in...
I'd bet money no foreign government has donated to their campaign at least.
Ensign_Crab 7 points 3 years ago
They wouldn’t need it as badly if someone didn’t go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA…
Or if someone hadn't sold Netanyahu weapons in the first place. Or if someone didn't run interference for Netanyahu at the UN.
TWeaK 1 point 3 years ago
but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.
both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.
How is Biden literally responsible for everyone uniting on that point?
givesomefucks 9 points 3 years ago
He went around Congress to give billions to Israel, and to ban aid to UNRWA causing mass starvation
Then Congress included both in the budget.
Any other questions?
TWeaK -1 points 3 years ago
Any comment on the fact that donors paying for aid to UNRWA wanted this, or that it was bipartisan and - as you just pointed out - it was Congress that put it in the budget?
Why is everything all Biden's fault, when you have already said in multiple points that other people were pushing for it also?
nednobbins 16 points 3 years ago
Why is everything all Biden’s fault
Because he's the boss. The president is always considered the leader of their party while they're in office. That's why Truman said, "The buck stops here."
If an organization does something, the leader of that organization needs to accept responsibility or admit they're an ineffective leader.
givesomefucks 6 points 3 years ago
Why is everything all Biden’s fault
Because before it was included in the budget, Biden went around Congress to do both via executive order.
And I think the other bit is you're confused about what "donors" meant, like are you thinking it's private citizens donating money and the government now won't let them?
I'm not trying to be insulting, but from context that seems to be your impression
Linkerbaan -2 points 3 years ago
Israel controls both sides of American politics. What's your point?
NineMileTower 45 points 3 years ago
Fuck all those willing to commit atrocities in the name of land or religion.
FiniteBanjo 7 points 3 years ago
And especially Netanyahu and gang who do it for monetary profits.
reverendsteveii 32 points 3 years ago
bullying works. if it didn't, bullies would do something else.
mlg 25 points 3 years ago
Amazing, they actually got him to say something after like the nth protest at his rallies after 6 months.
If we keep this up, he'll eventually talk about how he was totally gonna refund UNRWA after he loses in November.
Natanael -1 points 3 years ago
path: 0 8868492 8869669 8877692, hotness: undefined, score: -1, children: 0
reverendsteveii 10 points 3 years ago
Joe Brandon be like
Linkerbaan 25 points 3 years ago
Biden from today is sure saying something different:
U.S. Finds Israel in Compliance With Biden's Demands on International Law, Humanitarian Aid
'We have not found them to be in violation, either when it comes to the conduct of the war or the provision of humanitarian assistance,' the State Department said
TexMexBazooka 26 points 3 years ago
posts something the Biden did not say
Linkerbaan 1 point 3 years ago
That's Bidens demands
Hadriscus 13 points 3 years ago
I'm wondering just how damageable in terms of geopolitics would a deterioration of relations with Israel be. Cause it has to be huge to justify not acting on this genocide. What stops Biden/US from acting ? what can I read to better understand this issue ?
reverendsteveii 39 points 3 years ago
the US sees Israel as the only thing it can control in the middle east. it was always meant to be one of a few "pro-democracy beachheads" in the area, with the US attempting to make iraq work the same way in the 2000s. The idea was to put Israel in a position where they were powerful compared to their enemies but dependent on foreign aid, so that they could do whatever they want as long as they also did whatever we want. This is straight out of the British post-colonial hegemonic playbook - you don't send people to take over, and instead you elevate one local group from second or third place to the top and then make sure they never develop enough power that they can remain on top without your help. If you do this successfully, you can control them completely because all you have to do to send them tumbling from power is nothing when they're counting on your support.
Up until now, the impact of helping Israel didn't have to be all that massive because the impact of Israeli violence against Palestinians (edit: ON THE OPINION OF THE AVERAGE AMERICAN) wasn't either. What you're seeing is a replay of the US allowing anyone with a camera to report from Vietnam - the narrative used to be pretty tightly controlled but between Palestinian social media updates and Israel's internal jingoistic propaganda being leaked to the western world it's becoming harder and harder to sustain the whole 'most moral army in the world engaged in a limited defensive operation that respects the right of all law-abiding people to live in peace' narrative. We see them shooting at people gathered around aid trucks now. We hear them talking about "children of light vs children of darkness", "every Palestinian is a terrorist because they all support Hamas" and seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos. Americans tend to like war in theory, but we have a strong sense of fair play and we'll only stay on board up to a certain amount of video of unarmed people being mowed down by soldiers. This is why they're simultaneously softening their position on Palestine and moving to seize the only major social media outlet that isn't US-based (and therefore isn't able to be pressured about 'misinformation' the way that FB, X, reddit, etc are). It's a matter of appeasing us in order to stay in power now while moving behind the scenes to ensure that they control the narrative in future so that they're never again put in a position where they're beholden to the will of voters who think that foreign people are people.
archomrade 15 points 3 years ago
point one is also why the chosen rhetoric in opposition of the genocide is targeted at Netanyahu specifically rather than the entire administration, because rather than loosing relations with Israel as a country, the US wants to oust Netanyahu and have someone else they support take his place. That way they can keep their post-colonial pet in the middle east without looking like they're (still) supporting a genocide.
The problems with this, though, are:
- the US would still be engaged in a post-colonial imperialist action in the Middle East
- the broader Israel-Palestine relationship will almost certainly stay the same regardless, and I think a lot of American's opinion on Israel has been pretty irrevocably damaged since this new phase of conflict started.
reverendsteveii 0 points 3 years ago
you're absolutely right. nothing good ever happens just because it's good, and this is no different. brandon is currently trying to figure out a way to keep power in both America and the middle east, and built into the british model for post-settler-colonial hegemony is the precise lever that he's trying to pull. Namely "either you quit fucking this up for me or I'll fuck everything up for you so badly that you'll cease to exist"
Asafum 14 points 3 years ago
seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos
Whoever buys that land to make those needs to be harassed for the rest of their lives. That's absolute scum of the earth bullshit. Religion and real estate all in one gigantic shit storm... Literally the worst humanity has to offer.
assassin_aragorn 3 points 3 years ago
Jared Kushner I believe is the one who suggested displacing Palestinians to build luxury buildings and vacation hotspots.
So yeah, pretty much absolute scum of the earth. He can't be allowed near the White House ever again.
rottingleaf 1 point 3 years ago
This is straight out of the British post-colonial hegemonic playbook
Which was historically just a way to prolong defeat. I wonder why don't Israelis see that they are going to end up like Rhodesia, if they don't choose some other strategy of existence for themselves.
It’s a matter of appeasing us in order to stay in power now while moving behind the scenes to ensure that they control the narrative in future so that they’re never again put in a position where they’re beholden to the will of voters who think that foreign people are people.
Well, they may succeed, it happens.
theacharnian 0 points 3 years ago
If it is about Israel being the one thing the US can control in the middle east, I wonder then if this is not the US realizing it is losing control of their asset.
Bwaz 15 points 3 years ago
Israel uses a significant amount of the $$ the US gives them to lobby (IOW, bribe) members of the US political parties to support them. Including giving them more $$, in a positive feedback loop. The lobbied polits in effect give themselves money along with what Israel keeps.
TokenBoomer 4 points 3 years ago
This is the answer. Everything else may have been more true in the past. But the lobby has become so entrenched, that this is the answer.
Feathercrown 3 points 3 years ago
From my understanding, we need good relations with israel to have a stable military oresence in the middle east
ILikeBoobies 1 point 3 years ago
It would be terrible for the West
We would have to permanently ship around the cape of Africa and abandon oil based economies
It also brings about a large issue for future wars due to strategic positioning
And allies won’t trust the US to defend them so you’re better off aligning with Russia or China
theacharnian 1 point 3 years ago
Abandoning oil based economies is good.
ILikeBoobies 1 point 3 years ago
Yes but when so much especially militarily relies on it, there is a big transition period where you/Europe/East Asia are vulnerable and hoping that Texas is enough
I am pro nuclear but I realize the biggest problem with it is that it is a military target
bradorsomething 9 points 3 years ago
Dark Brandon, come forth and high five one of them.
joenforcer 20 points 3 years ago
You didn't watch the State of the Union speech, huh?
TexMexBazooka 3 points 3 years ago
I’ve found the whole ‘genocide joe’ crowd very rarely listens to anything joe actually says and live off a drip feed of .ml misinfo posts
Shyfer 4 points 3 years ago
People can say whatever they want, but it's actions that matter. And his actions have generally been supportive of Israel, including going around Congress to give them aid and weapons and vetoing UN resolutions for ceasefires.
Deceptichum 2 points 3 years ago
No, instead we watched his actions. Such as banning aid for the UNRWA, blocking Un resolutions against Israel, sidestepping congress to ship them weapons, ensuring billions in funding go their way.
But wow he was totally mean to them in a speech, i guess thats what matters.
laverabe -2 points 3 years ago
UN Security Council passes resolution calling for Gaza ceasefire 2 days ago By Raffi Berg,BBC News Watch: Moment UN passes Gaza ceasefire resolution
The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, after the US did not veto the measure in a shift from its previous position. It also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. It is the first time the council has called for a ceasefire since the war began in October after several failed attempts. The move by the US signals growing divergence between it and its ally Israel over Israel's offensive in Gaza.
Seems like action to me. Yeah a lot more needs to be done, but his words and actions are meeting.
Jentu 0 points 3 years ago
I'm not sure if calling "the US chose to finally stop vetoing UN resolutions" as action. They didn't vote in the affirmative. By the time the current administration does something to actually change things like refusing to send weapons, there won't be any more Palestinians left who haven't forever lost their family, home, or life.
autotldr 2 points 3 years ago
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Two protesters were escorted out of the Raleigh, North Carolina, venue after they cut off the president mid-remarks, shouting, "What about the health care in Gaza?"
Biden has faced numerous anti-war protests during his events in the months since the Israel-Hamas war began Oct. 7, and especially as calls have grown for his administration to take stronger action on the civilian death toll in Gaza.
In the weeks after he was interrupted about a dozen times during a January abortion rights speech, his team worked to minimize disruptions by making Biden's events smaller and withholding their precise locations longer than usual.
During his State of the Union address this month, Biden announced that he was directing the U.S. military to establish a "temporary pier in the Mediterranean on the Gaza coast" for aid delivery.
At the same time, Biden and top allies have ramped up criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government's approach to the war.
Biden, who served as vice president when the ACA was passed by Congress, has made preserving access to health care a central part of his re-election bid.
The original article contains 509 words, the summary contains 186 words. Saved 63%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
istanbullu -4 points 3 years ago
He realized that supporting Israel will doom the Democrats in the elections.
go_go_gadget 6 points 3 years ago
Not yet. If he had then he would stop arming them.
Ultragigagigantic 2 points 3 years ago
Everybody Sucks Here.
No, I don't need to write a 100 page comment about how some suck harder then others.
Switching away from first past the post voting makes third parties viable and eliminates the spoiler effect. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why first past the post voting makes third parties not viable.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to chanfe how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
go_go_gadget 7 points 3 years ago
Trump and Putin thank Biden for being such a dumbass that he's burning voters he's depending on to win elections.
lennybird -3 points 3 years ago
Is this even remotely supported by polling data?
The answer is no, it really is not
There are 172,000 Palestinian Americans.
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it's orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
... But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats' chances then...?
go_go_gadget 7 points 3 years ago
Your counter argument is "Well the shitty decision is more popular so."?
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
Then shame them for being shitty people. Don't shame progressives and leftists for refusing to cater to it. Your accusation that refusing to vote for Biden is support for Putin and Trump is equally damning whether Biden continues to send weapons to Israel or not. Those who would refuse to support Biden if he stopped sending weapons to Israel are just as guilty. The difference is they want to keep bombing people.
Direct your shame and finger wagging to the people who actually deserve it.
TokenBoomer 2 points 3 years ago
Israel thanks you for yours.
SaltySalamander -2 points 3 years ago
Keep living up to that username.
go_go_gadget 1 point 3 years ago
Err, Boomers are generally in favor of sending weapons to Israel. You know that right?
PoliticallyIncorrect -21 points 3 years ago
Fascist Joe what?
NaibofTabr 12 points 3 years ago
Please explain in clear terms what actions on the part of Joe Biden are consistent with any definition of the term fascism. Please provide the definition you are using for reference.
If you cannot substantiate your blatantly ignorant statement, please shut the hell up.
PoliticallyIncorrect -17 points 3 years ago
He acts as fascist by defining himself as a democrat when at the same time he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
It is the way contemporary fascism operates, publicly defining itself as one thing while at the same time acting contrary to the ideals they supposedly represent.
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
NaibofTabr 16 points 3 years ago
Research the etymological root of the word fascist and you will understand.
No. You provide the definition that you're using. I won't go on a wild goose chase to try to find a basis for your argument. You provide a basis for your argument.
he ignores the popular will and continues to fund a genocide
You realize that the US is bound by several preexisting agreements with Israel right? And that those agreements can't just be dropped due to the changing wind of public opinion?
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way "fascist".
assassin_aragorn 3 points 3 years ago
An annoying side effect of the rise of Republican fascism has been some leftist critics labeling everything they don't like as fascist, even when it makes absolutely no sense.
To be clear, this is like a pet peeve level of annoying compared to all the other shit going on. It's not in my top 10 things to be concerned about, but damn if it isn't annoying.
Gabu 2 points 3 years ago
Was Hungary part of the Axis in WW2? Yes? Then the US absolutely can and should be blamed for supporting a genocidal government in Israel, just as Hungary was blamed for siding with Nazis when their only interest was keeping their borders.
Ensign_Crab 0 points 3 years ago
Honoring your defense and economic agreements is in no way “fascist”.
Which agreement requires Biden to sell arms for genocide? Which one requires us to run interference at the UN?
thanks for using Leebra!
go to feed...
The UN passed the resolution calling it genocide so I agree with that, I trust a democratic vote of the UN despite their inability to actually do anything compared to South Africa. I'm still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that's how I feel.
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