Flock Camera Tells Cop New Car Didn’t Have Insurance When It Did, Cop Writes Ticket Anyway

a month ago by spaghettiwestern to c/technology

Georgia college student reportedly received a ticket from a cop after a Flock camera flagged her newly purchased vehicle as having no insurance when it did. According to a WSB-TV report, posted by podcast host Kacee Allen, the car has a temporary license plate, but the student presented a valid insurance card. Despite this, the officer reportedly still issued a citation. The incident reportedly happened twice, and the student now has to defend herself in court

According to the news report, the database that Flock cameras rely on was yet to be updated. This caused the system to falsely flag the newly purchased vehicle.

Renee Jones, the student’s mother, said her daughter was doing everything required of her. This included maintaining insurance and carrying proof of coverage.

Zak 176 points a month ago

In a just world, the officer, the police department, and Flock would all owe her compensation. I'd put the amount at about 10x the fine for the offense.

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Melobol 35 points a month ago

The problem is that any fees cops get for doing stuff coming out of tax money.
In a way I understand why, but it just bullshit at the end of day.

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Zak 69 points a month ago

A proposal I've seen floated a few times is to require police to carry liability insurance individually and give them a stipend for an average/reasonable amount. This is usually paired with changes to qualified immunity to make lawsuits and insurance claims easier.

The idea is that risky behavior from police costs them money personally.

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dreadbeef 4 points a month ago

Make it the chief instead and we got a deal

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wonderingwanderer 1 point a month ago

¿Porque no los dos?

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Clent 4 points a month ago

Fuck the stipend. They'll abuse that too.

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Melobol -14 points a month ago

I'm wanting to say I like this idea, but...
It just freaking sux. There are good cops out there who don't need to be pumped into one insurance ideology (fraud) - but til the bad cops get the punishment they deserve there is no good solution.

This is a general problem with the whole system - including unaffordable healthcare. If healthcare would be free; freakton of lawsuits wouldn't happen.
Without those lawsuits the insurance would go down, lawyers would not clog up the system with 'got hurt in an accident' cases - and this would reflect all parts of society.
I believe the cops not getting punished for being bad is just one of the hundred symptoms of the system failing.

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alternategait 15 points a month ago

I mean doctors and other healthcare providers have malpractice insurance. For me, it’s a requirement to maintain my license.

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Hacksaw 11 points a month ago

LMFAO.... Good cops get abused in the police force. They never last. Sometimes they get harassed for life because they tried to stand up for what's right.

ACAB

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kkj 3 points a month ago

Even in the fantasy world where the majority of cops are good, nothing changes for them. They carry insurance, the stipend pays for it, and they don't have claims because they don't do stupid shit like this. The bad cops have tons of claims, the insurance becomes unaffordable, and they have to quit.

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wonderingwanderer 1 point a month ago

It should come out of their operating budget.

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helpImTrappedOnline 15 points a month ago

Break it down; 2% cop 5% department 25% flock 2x cop 5x department 25x flock

The extra 20 from flock goes back to taxpayers who had to pay the department's portion.

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Zak 8 points a month ago

That adds up to 30%. Maybe you meant 25/50/25.

I'd have to know more before breaking it down. If Flock told police departments that these alerts are up to date and reliable, I might assign them up to half the blame. If there were clear that the information could be a few days old, then I'd set it smaller, but not to zero because I think offering an "alert" product to law enforcement for minor administrative offenses based on stale data is irresponsible.

Similarly for the department and the officer, I have to ask whether there's a policy about how to handle this sort of thing. If there's a bad policy, the department gets most of the blame. If the officer decided to ignore a valid insurance card and trust a third-party database, the the officer gets most of the blame.

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helpImTrappedOnline 2 points a month ago

Oops, I wasn't really doing the math as I went

Originally I was adding up to your 10x + a adding in bunch extra for flock, but somepoint my brain switch that 10x to 10%. Oh well, the specific numbers dont really matter.

I think greater responsibility should be placed on the department to encourage firing. If the burden is mostly on the officer, than the department bean counters won't care as long the officer can write more "valid" tickets to offset the bogus ones.

Its also like if a waiter drops a tray of food on someone causing injury. Who is financially responsible to the injured person, the business or waiter? I think most of would agree that the business is. The business is fully within their rights to fire that waiter, but they can't withhold pay for the damages. If the business can prove the tray was intentionally thrown, then they can sue the waiter. But, the injured party should never have to talk to the waiter.

Should the be the same for an officer, if they make a mistake it's on the department to make it right with the affected parties. If the department proves the officer maliciously broke protocol or law, then they can sue them separately. The victim of the officer's actions should be made "whole" by the department, then the department and officer can figure it out on their own.

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Hacksaw 2 points a month ago

This is how it works now, but who pays the department's legal bill? Municipal tax payers. It's zero accountability. Each cop should be insured like doctors and engineers. That's the only way to make it work that isn't just wasting taxpayer dollars.

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NOT_RICK 127 points a month ago

I’m struggling to process how the fuck that cop could still write a ticket after seeing a valid proof of insurance. The sheer arrogance is ridiculous

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Tippy 100 points a month ago

There's an infamous video of a cop who tickets an amputee for holding a cellphone in her non existent hand. He triples down in the video that she had the phone specifically in her missing hand WHILE she is holding up the stump and laughing at him. She of course disputed it, agency stupidly stood by their braindead officer until it got to court when suddenly the cop begged for the entire thing to be dropped, after proceedings had started, wasting everyone's time and taxpayer dollars.

They are so used to never being questioned, and having zero consequences when they are because of qualified immunity, that their brains are incapable of processing that they are fucking up something incredibly simple.

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klugerama 52 points a month ago

after proceedings had started, wasting everyone's time and taxpayer dollars.

That was the point - that is, that's why the cop didn't just walk away. He knew he was wrong, but she embarrassed him. He knew that he could just force the issue right up to the last minute, and there would be no consequences for him. Major hassle and inconvenience for her, but he still gets paid and there's almost certainly no negative repercussions for him.

He was deliberately making life more difficult for her, because his feelings were hurt. It wasn't out of ignorance, it was out of childish malice.

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Manjushri 23 points a month ago

Plus there is probably some percentage of people who will just pay a fine rather than losing time at work to go to trial. That may have been what he was hoping for.

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Someonelol 25 points a month ago

We're pretty close to the anniversary of the events that ended up in the creation of the "qualified immunity" doctrine which was September 13, 1961. The case involves the civil rights movement, 15 priests, Mississippi, and law enforcement overreach. It's a good read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierson_v._Ray

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Teknikal 18 points a month ago

Seen one where the cop decided a Blind man's white cane was a weapon as well. There's probably even worse going on that doesn't make the Internet.

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brygphilomena 3 points a month ago

We need to have laws where if cases are dismissed or dropped the citing/arresting officer facing penalties.

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Elgenzay 54 points a month ago

Apparently they can write tickets for things that are objectively false. There's bodycam footage of cop giving a ticket to a woman a few months ago for using her phone while driving. He said "with your right hand" before she showed him that she doesn't have a right hand. Gave her a ticket anyway

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ouRKaoS 5 points a month ago

That chick was the perfect level of petty! Video cracks me up every time.

"Soo.... We just gonna call it here, or...?"

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CmdrShepard49 29 points a month ago

I've seen other examples of this in bodycam videos from Georgia on YouTube where Flock wasn't involved at all. The cops claimed that they only go by what their computers say regardless of whether the person has proof of insurance on hand. In one notable example, a cop stopped an elderly couple at around midnight for the same reason, ignored their proof of insurance, and left them stranded on the side of the road after towing their car. The husband was disabled and couldn't walk.

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PattyMcB 6 points a month ago

It's not just Georgia

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lightnsfw 25 points a month ago

It's that thing where your brain locks in on your first understanding of a situation and it's harder to change after that point. Cops, being morons, are extra susceptible to it.

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Malica 7 points a month ago

The trust they have in it is the scariest part. It gives flock enormous power.

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PattyMcB 4 points a month ago

That's a funny way of spelling "sheer ignorance"

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bold_atlas 4 points a month ago

Hope this diagram of cop programming helps:

copGPT thinking...

1    [BE A BASTARD?]                    
2       /     \                                        
3      /       \                                       
4     NO       [YES]-------[BEAT WIFE?]  
5                             /  \                     
6                            /    \                    
7                          NO    [YES] [return to line 1]

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unitedwithme 3 points a month ago

Having worked in insurance before, I've had numerous officers stop in to our office to validate insurance cards because they've been doctored.

How that works: person A signs up for a policy, pays the minimum pymt. Gets ID cards, stops paying after first payment. Policy is canceled but ID cards show valid date for 6-12 months. Person A then edits the document with new dates to show future proof of insurance without spending money. Might trick some initially unless you get into an accident.

However, not everyone is so skillful at matching fonts or size, so often it'll look like shit and be obvious its fake. Maybe the officer thought some database was surely more accurate, but should've done a little research first before issuing a ticket.

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Natanael 20 points a month ago

You literally just call the company instead of writing a citation first

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mangobanana 14 points a month ago

Yes most insurance companies have a 24-hour hotline exactly for this

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PolarKraken 2 points a month ago

Just what we need here, some benefit of the doubt for the disgusting pig, thanks bud!

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unitedwithme 0 points a month ago

I'm giving an explanation of what I've seen NUMEROUS times. Feel free to reread my comment though to it's entirety.

Maybe the officer thought some database was surely more accurate, but should've done a little research first before issuing a ticket.

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PolarKraken 1 point a month ago

Your own quote is literally the benefit of the doubt I'm complaining about, it's not me failing to understand something here.

Cop was way wrong here, clearly. Why are you talking about obviously forged documents, what does that have to do with this situation? You're saying because of other situations, you can see why the cop is suspicious, and that's normal and fine - he just should've checked properly! I realize I put words in your mouth, but they sound like the ones you're saying.

That's you extending benefit of the doubt. I'm saying that cop much more likely didn't really give the first fuck whether it was legit or not, and that's the kind of doubt that must be extended to such people.

As in, "Think that cop mighta been doing the right thing in this case or at least with good intentions? Nah, prolly not". Unless I really am misunderstanding, you're doing the opposite.

You're doing the opposite. [Edit - whoops - struck out line was a duplicate I left accidentally before adding the "Unless..." above, which does happen to create the exact opposite effect intended by adding the "unless" in the first place]

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ayyy 101 points a month ago

Was she black?

Edit: yup, she was black. I hope the officer suddenly runs out of blood soon.

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mysticalone 18 points a month ago

that was my first question seeing the headline. shame on flock and the officer

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IrateAnteater 69 points a month ago

So I had a suspicion, and yup, this was another ticket for DWB. Flock was just the excuse du jour.

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taiyang 16 points a month ago

It certainly sounds "more legitimate" than pulling them over for a failure to use a blinker or doing too sharp of a left turn, as friends and victims of DWB can attest to having happened to them.

Although given the paper trail here, it is probably easier to fight in court.

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LodeMike 2 points a month ago

Too sharp a left turn?

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taiyang 4 points a month ago

You know, you're not supposed to cut over the center dividing line when you turn but plenty of people do if you're not making a perfect arc with your turn (and I mean, just a little bit). A friend got pulled over for it. We both agreed it was probably racial.

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xthexder 61 points a month ago

What's crazy to me is how this insurance database lookup even makes sense... Most insurance companies give you a grace period to add new vehicles if you have an existing policy. For mine in Washington, I have 14 days to tell my insurance if I've bought a new car, and it's covered under my existing policy until then. Flock would have no way of looking up this information and has no justification to flag a vehicle like this...

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LodeMike 15 points a month ago

Bold of you to assume cops use logic

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brygphilomena 4 points a month ago

What's crazy to me is that someone, somewhere thought big brother was necessary for enforcing car insurance at all.

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SirEDCaLot 57 points a month ago

Honestly she should sue for malicious prosecution. She was driving the vehicle legally with insurance, she proved that to the officer by showing her paperwork, and then, knowing that she had insurance and the complaint was baseless, the officer wrote the ticket anyway.

This should be an open and shut case.

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yetAnotherUser 53 points a month ago

The police officer did the right thing. As we all know, computers are always right /s

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Rhaedas 30 points a month ago

They have to. If they start admitted it's making mistakes, there might be a push to take them down. And then we're be sooooo insecure. Even though it doesn't seem like the cameras are being used to actually fight crime.

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empireOfLove2 16 points a month ago

Even though it doesn’t seem like the cameras are being used to actually fight crime.

Just in the last week I noticed a huge uptick in news articles about crimes being solved "with the help of" Flock systems. They're trying too little, too late to drive the narrative.

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dil 6 points a month ago

Facebook is being flooded, thers a cat in the hat dude locally that is copying the clown trend from a decade ago, every braindead person on there is saying see this is why we need flock cameras and trying to jusitfy more.

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Steve 2 points a month ago

We don’t pay those fuckers to think!

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frustrated_phagocytosis 39 points a month ago

If the cameras are sending cops after non-existent crimes, how are they helping with efficiency or cost?

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tburkhol 18 points a month ago

People pay fake tickets because it's too expensive to fight them.

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boaratio 34 points a month ago

ACAB as usual.

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db_null 26 points a month ago

I hate nothing more than people blindly following what an algorithm tells them. What's the point of paying this idiot cop if they're dumber than an outdated database?

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ms_lane 2 points a month ago

Exactly, cops can be replaced with email now. Where is DOGE when you actually need them?

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panda_abyss 22 points a month ago

Computer says no ticket.

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PattyMcB 2 points a month ago

Loved that show!

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fartographer 21 points a month ago

Look, I'm not saying that I support these Big Brother-type companies, but if the cop is just gonna follow the instructions on their computer and not even think for themselves, then we should cut out the middleman. Flock should send tickets directly to offenders. You're far less likely to get shot that way.

<s>
What recourse could an AI company possibly have over someone? Negative social credits.
Run a stop sign? Social credit goes down. Rob a Walmart? Social credit goes down. Murder someone? Social credit goes down, but more. Safely follow all road laws? Fuck you, this counter only goes down. Have low social credit? Believe it or not, social credit goes down.

How do we use these social credits to keep society in line? Public registry. Look up why anyone has their social credit score. Filter by thefts at Walmart and buy those people beers.
</s>

But seriously. If the Justice system is willing to automate and outsource police work, then get those fucking cops off the streets.

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Kolanaki 5 points a month ago

You're far less likely to get shot that way

Well... Until they start putting guns in the cameras anyway.

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Hupf 4 points a month ago

Also just hand the guns to the AI as well.

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fartographer 1 point a month ago

That sounds like a feature outside of the agreed set. As a compromise, the UI can have access to the device speaker and its LLM can shout "BANG" at random intervals.

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Hupf 2 points a month ago

EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE

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Test_Tickles 3 points a month ago

Actually, a number of governments have contracted with private companies to handle certain policing duties like tolls or parking enforcement. Those companies then basically get all the rights of the government. I believe that it was NY City that was having a serious problem with parking enforcement stealing (impounding vehicles) and putting tickets on legally parked vehicles (about 10yrs ago) just to bump their profits.

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sem 20 points a month ago

Too bad there's not malpractice but for cops

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bhamlin 11 points a month ago

There is, kinda. It's called the "Brady List" and kinda almost can do the same thing.

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PalmTreeIsBestTree 3 points a month ago

Seems to not do it most of the time

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bhamlin 1 point a month ago

Yeah, it doesn't have a lot of teeth. You can use it to get testimony thrown out though.

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Kolanaki 2 points a month ago

Do they refer to those on that list as the Brady Bunch?

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bhamlin 2 points a month ago

They should...

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SailorFuzz 17 points a month ago

oh cool, so now we have a private company directing our police force.

And the relationship is both symbiotic and exponential. The police make money writing tickets, that money goes to the local govenment, and that government can buy more flock cameras. More flock cameras, more tickets, more money, more flock cameras.....

Cyberpunk distophia here we come!

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Quexotic 17 points a month ago

Also its a DWB, but with flock... Nice.

At least the upcoming lawsuit should pay for college.

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A_Random_Idiot 15 points a month ago

being black was absolutely the real crime the cop was concerned with, the insurance bullshit was just manufactured cause.

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Kolanaki 3 points a month ago

Figures. I had the assumption the moment I read this happened in Georgia.

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apftwb 14 points a month ago

To continue, please select all the squares that contain a gun:

black men holding wallets

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Jhex 9 points a month ago

Well we know cops are dumb and lazy as a group... imagine once you give them license to turn off the remaining brain power as AI is thinking for them, what could go wrong?

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PattyMcB 3 points a month ago

Duty weapons go brrrrr

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frustrated_phagocytosis 6 points a month ago

If the cameras are sending cops after non-existent crimes, how are they helping with efficiency or cost?

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nulluser 3 points a month ago

Duplicate post

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matlag 4 points a month ago

Now eagerly waiting for a computer to tell them "Go fuck yourself"

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UnrepententProcrastinator 3 points a month ago

People named Renee better join the revolution now.

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echodot 1 point a month ago

So the system doesn't use the official database but some copy of it that is low to be updated. Surely this would happen every single day if this is how it works.

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