Truthfully, putting the homeless in a safe warm place that enables them to have access to a library at night sounds like a smart combo.
My local library has security guards because people keep shooting up heroin in the bathrooms.
This would exacerbate that
We should absolutely have safe housing for homeless people with UBI and transitional programs. We should also offer mental health and substance abuse treatment -- and in extreme cases humane involuntary treatment for people that are a danger to themselves and others.
And none of this should take place in shared, public spaces for the safety and dignity of everyone involved. This is a failure of society and needs to be treated as such. Placing the burden on individuals isn't the solution. Expecting public spaces designed for other uses to pick the slack of a broken societal safety net is insane.
humane involuntary treatment
You can't have humane involuntary treatment. In cases where somebody is threatening someone else, I would say involuntary treatment is called for. But we shouldn't decide when its okay to imprison people for exercising their bodily autonomy.
that's a good point, we should also end the drug war
we know the solution. it's building a shit ton of cheap housing and handing it out to people and charging them 30% of the income, not counting the first $20k. it's just rich psychopaths who run the country would rather profit off of prison and let them die instead.
Same. The homeless population has unfortunately made libraries where I live pretty dangerous places and I can only imagine how much worse that would be if they were open all night. My city doesn’t seem to care at all about people shooting up and ruining public spaces.
And also, the heroin.
Yeah, nothing against that idea in theory, but in practice, places like that end up full of urine-soaked drug addicts that are high on meth, making it an extremely unattractive place to hang out and socialize.
Denver's Union station downtown is a perfect example. It's a "public private" space that tries to stay open late on weekends to cater to the crowd but ends up being a hellhole.
places like that end up full of urine-soaked drug addicts that are high on meth,
You’re putting all homeless into a box. Not all are homeless because they are addicts. Some are legitimately forgotten by the system and for different reasons lost job/domestic abuse/no fam/disability/health issue/financial issues. And even at that : addiction is also a symptom of a shit society. Not the same issue as what causes other homeless people but there can be more than one problem in a poorly designed system that comes up with the same result of being homeless.
Society built on capitalistic ideals for more than just survival as a goal has an extremely narrow scope for who it is interested in serving.
You’re putting all homeless into a box.
With the exception of your first sentence (me putting homeless people in a box, which I'm not sure if you're making a pun or not), all of other the things you said are correct and I agree with. The things you said and the things I said are not mutually exclusive.
In other words, not all homeless are the same, not all are drug addicts, and society should do better at preventing homelessness, and you might still have a late-night library filled with urine-soaked drug addicts.
You’re putting all homeless into a box. Not all are homeless because they are addicts.
Are we not allowed to make generalizations at all? I promise you if you open a homeless center in any major city you will find out very quick that psycho behavior comes with homeless people at scale. It's a guarantee that you will have meth addicts ruin whatever infrastructure you provide them. It doesn't matter that there are some good homeless people when you are almost guaranteed to face the bad ones.
also more homeless drug addicts started after they became homeless, not before. being on the street like that deteriorates your mental health. the longer we let this go unaddressed the worse it gets.
Crazy idea : let's use churches to accommodate homeless people since you can find them fucking everywhere, surely they're not used after 8pm, and that's basically the point of them in the first place, no?
As much as I despise organized religion they aren't fully to blame for the situation. Some of them have really made an effort.
Religion even at its very very best can't do that job. That is why we need the government.
As much as I despise organized religion they aren’t fully to blame for the situation.
They are if they don’t pay the taxes that would have been used to help with situations such as this.
Most churches can't keep the lights on. For every LDS or RCC there are a thousand places on the verge of bankruptcy. Every atheist I know makes a big deal about the big players but not one has shown me the raw the numbers that proves that if they paid corporate tax rates it would be mean more than a few more cruise missiles used to blow up weddings in Pakistan.
Yeah agreed. There are some small churches with actually kind people who help the homeless and do good stuff.
I agree but on no other neoliberal positions. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Government can’t do that job either. We already have homeless shelters. I don’t know why people talk like this is a new idea. We have homeless shelters in our society. They’re government funded in some cases, or church-funded in other cases.
We still have homeless people. We do provide free shelter and food to people. And we still have people sleeping on the street.
I think monks aren't excited about washing off piss in the morning
Then they should provide access to toilets. Where are they going when they want to take a piss? Also isn't helping the poor in anyway they can a charitable act revered by their religion?
I get the idea and I think it's wonderful but have you ever been to a homeless shelter? They need staff to break up fights, protect women, clean up the mess made by drug users and alcoholics, and all sorts of other difficult things your average old lady pew duster isn't capable of dealing with.
Maybe for the Sikhs?
some of the most?
That and stressed-out students pulling all-nighters.
We’ve been doing extended openings 0700-2200 for several years in Oslo. As do libraries all over Norway. You need to use your library-card or app to open the door, so there’s some control (data lives for 7 days). We have very little problems - maybe there’s some homeless there but they are as welcome as anyone else. We do have security guard, or one that strays between branches. And yes we do have homeless people in Oslo.
Go Norway! I whish we had a library law here in Germany like you do - our places are underfunded and understaffed... a lot of my colleagues are very passionate about their jobs, we could do so much more with our local libraries.
A lot of Norwegian libraries are underfunded as well.
In Oslo public library (Deichman) we’ve been given more money the last 10 years than previously. And we have shown what that money can do.
During Covid shutdown the Library was what kept open except for two weeks - that really showed what kind of back-bone we were for Oslo.
It was very tough on our frontline workers as we were swamped with students ignoring any precautions. Working in libraries are still low paying compared to the education
They're already full of homeless people 😐
the housing crisis and resulting homelessness have dramatic downstream effects on everything
Winter is hitting my little town in Sweden and I have to say that your suggestion is looking increasingly appealing. It’s not the cold. It’s not the rain we get now in place of snow thanks to global warming. It’s not even the darkness. It’s the gloomy all-encompassing grey.
It’s like all life and joy leaves the world until spring hits in May.
Isn't Norway separate from Scandinavia?
Where do you have this from?
Fairly normal where I live
Not sure where you live, but I have actually been to a fair few libraries like this in the US. Usually if you want a really cool library, you'll have to go to the main one in the state. If not that, the highest reviewed one. Of course, it all depends where you are, as different regions seem to care about having nice libraries at different amounts.
And the most popular one: the podcast studio. I’d like to point out that the other 20-ish libraries we have besides of Bjørvika are amazing too! You should see the one we open in Holmlia dec 1st. It’s even got a separate youth-library next to the normal one.
BRING BACK THE THIRD PLACE
Examples of third places include churches, cafes, bars, clubs, community centres, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, makerspaces, stoops, and parks.
Well, first off, "free" is not a requirement for a 3rd place, but even if we accept that the best third places are free, that doesn't make ones where money is involved bad by default.
The difference is between paying admission or membership dues like gyms usually require vs a public space where there's an expectation you will buy something but it's not a requirement for entry, and it's not the only thing to do there.
Stores don't work because the purpose of being there is to buy things, so there's nothing else to do, and no other acceptable behavior beyond maybe some chit chat.
But at a cafe, the seating area is designed for you to just chill and do other things besides ponder what you're going to buy next. The seating areas are open and there's an expectation a purchase is made, but you can order nothing while a person with you orders something, or you can order something small and cheap, and get the same level of access as anyone. That's a very low barrier of entry for a place that is purpose made for social activity.
Same is true of bars. You need to buy something, sure, but the place is designed for social activity, not just reading the menu.
Well, first off, “free” is not a requirement for a 3rd place
in order to be effective it has to be. there's plenty of places where you can go out if you can regularly spend $10^2 or $10^3 on a weekly basis, but not that many people can, hence the problem. we need to set out with free as an explicit requirement or we will fail.
back when I went to college I tried handing out in bars, but it was too loud in all the ones in town but one that was too far from home to hear yourself think let along have a casual conversation, and the drinks were too expensive to make it affordable. eventually I decided drinking at home was cheaper and stopped bothering. lots of fast food places are starting to explicitly post time limits and even in places where they don't I feel pressured to constantly consume or leave. I've never timed how long you can sit there before being formally asked to leave for loitering but a business wants to free up space for paying customers so the pressure exists which makes any private for profit business a poor choice
I'm just saying there's plenty of third places apparently
I feel like this video (link below) does a good job of explaining why a lot of current third places aren't quite meeting the need, or just don't really fit the definition of third places.
https://piped.video/watch?v=MD_CMrCpBMc
I can think of a few places that meet most of the criteria near me, but there's very few. The closest ones are probably the gaming shops, where you can show up and just hang out playing games with friends for free - but those are kind of geared towards specific activities, so you can't always show up and just hang out with others whenever, as there are usually only regulars on certain days of the week, and often they are involved only in playing a game, not casual conversation.
STOOP KID LEFT HIS STOOP
A truly tremendous day in the neighbourhood.
Why does nobody ever accept my invitations to hang out on my stoop?
Restaurants, bars are part of number first one. Coffee shops to me close early. Never seen one open at 10pm+
The library having games and such would be nice. They likely would run into the issue that thoae unfortunate would turn up and try to stay all night every time to get out of the cold/rain/heat.
Bars usually manage to bounce them without issue due to them not being paying customers. Getting bounced by a librarian does sound kind of cool though.
Cafes near me don't open late a lot of the time. They close at about 5pm. So if you want some place to hang out after work? You have no choice other than a bar.
I hate it.
In the UK they defunded youth centres. Whatever shady shit we used to get up to at those, it was in a safe-ish place which at least one responsible person not far away in the worst case. Our behaviour/activities outside of those places once they were gone, as bored youths in a town of middle age to old people, was much worse.
A lot of us don't even have a second location anymore.
I have a second location. Workplace and my car. Welcome to hell.
discord is the de facto their place for people my age these days. sad there isn't a better alternative
After a short while, the library owners would realize that they could make a lot more money if they served alcohol in the evenings.
It's really disappointing how much of our space is privatized.
I'm hoping to eventually open something like a board game cafe to help address this for my hometown. Far from a perfect solution, but I would like to get as close to a "third place" community-oriented vibe as possible without going totally broke, at least.
Apparently we're even supposed to give individuals private space now!?
I can't even afford to rent a room during normal working hours though. Plus, I'm pretty sure my local library doesn't offer evening bookings.
Asterisk: I can technically afford it, but I'm not paying like $160/mo to host a weekly club at the library. That defeats the whole point of a third space.
Paying for something doesn’t defeat the point of a third place. Enterprising and profit do. People covering just the cost of materials required for their activity is not that bad a thing.
I would rather more basic activities be covered by taxes too though.
Just throwing it out there: most libraries do have one late night day a week, there are probably a million people on earth right at this moment that would love to play a tabletop game with you or take a zoom class, every single area has clubs/associations/charities that would love some new faces.
Don't expect the universe to give you companionship. You need to do it yourself
You reap what you sow. you sow nothing you reap nothing.
well said.
I read something about the Carnegie libraries in Pittsburgh basically doing this way back when. Apparently it was popular for people to get off work, go home, clean up, eat, then head out to the library. There was stuff there for kids like story tellers, tutors, art workshops, and more. For adults, quiet places for people who just wanted to read, places for study, areas for people to discuss various subjects, classes on various skills (painting, pottery, carpentry, etc) and the ground floor main area had a general social space. They served coffee, food trucks set up outside, and some inside. It was a popular place for people who didn't want to go to the bar.
That sounds fantastic. Experiment run its course, get derailed, something else?
A combination of factors. Lower funding, suburbanization, growing means for home entertainment, growing wages sending people to more expensive options, etc.
One thing that happened is society forgot they can go do these things at libraries today.
Everything he listed is on the calendar of a great number of city libraries, if you check their websites! (Source: I built and maintained the websites for several libraries)
That's called a community centre and used to be pretty common. Growing up we had multiple that were run by the local Catholic organizations, and I think there were also some that were run by the youth branch of the various political parties.
But a key component of such a place being success is having a certain kind of open culture. There's countries where if you throw 10 strangers in a room and return an hour later, you'll find 10 strangers on their phone, having not uttered a single word to each other.
People also have a tendency to divide into subgroups and isolate from each other. It's a step in the right direction and better than no community at all. But it can breed resentment and even violence. That's a common problem of community centres here.
If we constantly tell people that their primary defining characteristic is their race, or their sexuality, or their nationality, and we tell them that those people are the only ones who can truly get them, then it’s no surprise this results in a culture of isolating into little demographic groups.
You shouldn't talk and socialize inside a public library though.
Maybe a community center for activities would be better. Lemmy is basically a bunch of virtual community centers anyways.
During the day, sure.
After dark, board games, LAN parties, Cards Against Humanity,
The library makes it appealing to me. Most of the time, I would rather just read in the corner, social-adjacent rather than socialization.
You should check out some board game/card game shops around where you live.
Also, Cards Against Humanity is funny if you play it with your friends once every couple of months, I wouldn't want to play it regularly, it gets old really fast.
There's a lot of board/card games on the market like that, where once you've been through the deck once it's kind of done.
Public libraries hold community events all the time, though..? At least the ones near me have conference rooms and such that can be booked. One reason why drag time story hour has been under attack lately. One of the many avenues to further ostracize us
Yup, even though I'm pretty new to D&D I'm hosting a game with a few people from the us (I'm from Europe), nearly every weekend I'm chuckling because of the things they come up with, some of the best fun from the entire week, even though it's literally 1 am for me at that time
Yes I get a little bit sleep deprived, but I fix it by oversleeping till 10 AM
Life sucks but this is some of the few things keeping me here
I refuse to play D&D online. It is my "real people time", an irony considering we're all playing imaginary characters.
About five years ago I started hosting D&D 9pm (21:00) Friday evenings. There was a restaurant in town that was open late, largely serving takeout orders. So we requested a regular table in the back corner and they offered us a free plate of nachos every Friday. We usually played for three or four hours, and a few people ordered drinks or finger food -- enough for the restaurant to break even on the nachos at a minimum. It was our "bar replacement" activity. I immediately had buy in from the players, and had to turn people away.
I moved a few years later, and my new house had a large-group friendly basement suitable for D&D. In my new city, I posted looking for players for the same time slot: 9pm Fridays. I was oversubscribed within a few hours. We had a few pauses during COVID, but are still playing at the same timeslot.
I still use the "in person only" rule at my table. During COVID, a bunch we're proposing we play online. I don't want to play online. I can do that with innumerable games that already fill that niche. I want pencil and paper and friends.
But libraries demand silence... You need loud libraries late at night... with live music, and maybe alcohol... wait...
Isn’t that what the conference rooms are?
It would also be useful for people that don't like church, which is the main third place in much of rural America.
Many libraries in Denmark do stay open to 9pm. They even have tables and invite people to hang out there. Although I må not sure if you're allowed to drink or eat there they do want you to just hang out. They have boardgames that you can borrow or play there and they even have boardgames nights where you can play against other guests. Some libraries even have gaming computers and playstation 5 with sofas and all. It's pretty cool! Some of them also let you borrow things like baking forms, instruments, and tools!
NL here. One of the libraries in my city has a café on the ground floor, as well as space for more noisy activity or higher traffic volume, like music practices or a polling station. While for calm you do need to go up the stairs, the function of the third place does exist in there.
Such a construction, as far as I can tell, is pretty uncommon among libraries in the country though, the cultural sector has been criminally underfunded and disrespected for quite a while. This was a happenstance thing where several local cultural organisations teamed up to make this happen.
NL here. Which city and which library are you talking about?
I've worked in a public library and we were fine with food as long the patrons cleaned up after themselves and it wasn't something like a full pizza. We got salty when folks just left trash on the tables.
As former and probably future homeless person this is a bad idea.
Providing houses for the homeless? This smells like socialism and this America! The only people who get socialism are the rich and corporations. Everyone else can get fucked. /s
Our library hosts lounge night and a game night. Lounge night is lofi music and people enjoying themselves with games, movies, books, larping, and writers sharing. Poetry night and writers block aren't personally my favorite but there's those as well.
Has no one been thinking of the shareholders?!?
What’s going to happen to them if people just start hanging out in a free space? How do the shareholders make money off of that?
They could sell cocktails and cannabis edibles after 9pm.
Sounds like a good time to me.
i would love to do the same but the nearest one is more then 100km away, sometimes it really sucks to be in a remote town
Jesse. We need to read.
Here in Finland a lot of libraries are open pretty late (scan card and PIN to access, free of charge). Some close because of vandals, but it mostly works.
Not much socializing, though. Mostly people choose the drinking in domestic isolation.
That is why our local libraries started hosting board game nights. Mixed bag because there are already a bunch of successful board game clubs attracting the more experienced crowd.
Option 3: disregard laws, fuck in the streets
It's a group activity that everyone can enjoy! Get to really know your mail carrier, and learn how to get that 60% discount at the pizza parlor, all in an exciting and lively atmosphere!
idk. Seems kinda uncomfortable on pavement. But maybe on that soft flooring they use on the kid playgrounds?
sounds like San Francisco
Post on a local Facebook page that you'll DM a game of D&D for anyone who's interested. Bam, instant friends.
I might consider learning how to do it first, but yeah. Players are always looking for DMs, and nerds are fun to be around.
Ooh, you could play at the libr-- ohhhh.
My friend's uncle was arrested for playing at the library. He was by himself in a corner of the compurer lab.
Playing... With what?
The Loch Ness Monster
I just have people come to my house
This step is pretty difficult. (1) You know people, (2) they would agree to come to your house, and (3) you have enough room to have guests.
I myself am failing all 3 atm. To add on top of that, I prefer to sleep a lot and I do not own any board games.
when i was a kid i would go to the library all the time until 10, which was late for me at that age. i wasn't a big reader, but it was a perfect excuse to escape family.
sell coffee etc. to pay the bills. all the cool kids are doing it. Libraries are looking for more visitors. Install a Starbucks with tables near the gaming PCs. books and chairs in the corner. Checkout counter is already done, Re: bars, Why do they all have parking lots? AA without the chanting.
They should serve alcohol at libraries. That would be ideal.
Hear me out: speakeasy in the libraries, in a separate section (don't want to ruin those books)
Yes! But not a door. When you pull the book, the entire shelf/floor spins around to take you to the hidden speakeasy. Ideally with a jazz piano player named Sam who greets you by name.
Need to have cigars to amp the classiness even more.
Preferably a candle- or torch-lit affair... Can't have too many open flames.
More the merrier! Open flames for all!
I’ve got a lively tabletop store that has a ton of tables. It’s got stuff that interests me on multiple nights a week, and a chill regular crowd.
Then I’ve got an evening running group. Admittedly they are about to close down until next year soon.
I do admit I’m less of a night owl nowadays, and more about spending my daytime hours doing active activities. Those hours are so slambooked I am putting things in a calender organizer so I don’t doublebook my time. The nights where I’m alone I usually feel pretty beat from the daytime, and ready to just relax at home contently.
I suppose what I’m saying is that part of the blame lies on society, but some of it is learned helplessness. Making a witty Twitter post might help vent but it won’t make new social hubs fall out of the sky for you. If you’re itching to do things then go do things. Everything I’m currently into, I started out by just showing up on my own and making friends there. If you’ve got friends who only socialize by drinking at bars, don’t be shocked when the only activities seem to be bar oriented.
I agree with the gist of your post. I would add, though, that your tabletop store is a store. There is an expectation that you spend money, whether its explicit or just implied by the fact that its their space and you're taking it up. I think we need spaces where people can exist without the expectation of commerce.
People bemoan being isolated. I mentioned one of many activities as an example of how to solve being isolated.
An indoors social space to just exist would be great. Complaining about it on the internet doesn’t solve anybody’s loneliness. We can still do that of course, complaining on the internet is tradition, but we can also posit solutions that actually make people less lonely.
In my experience, people socialize more quickly with strangers when there is a shared thread in a group, rather than just an open space. Hence suggesting going and doing something rather than just going to a place. Go run, go hike, go play frisbee, find whatever meetup online thing your area has. Some of it is free, some of it you have to put some money into. But life isn’t a choice between barhopping and crippling loneliness.
The whole problem is that people don’t have the money to engage in spaces that require purchases. That’s the entire reason 3rd spaces have died. When people no longer have any disposable income they can’t go out any longer.
indeed. we need places where it costs $0 to go and socialize or organize small get togethers. anything less that free is going to make it impossible to work
this is especially important nowadays, where people are poorer than they used to be, and for teens who hardly ever have any money to begin with. if you have to spend money, a lot of people couldn't afford it or will be pressured to cut back or stop going altogether when money gets tight.
My library does sell food but only 11am -4pm, Monday - Thursday.....
My local one smells like body odor unfortunately
My college library is open 24/7 for students.
Too late.
Most drunkards won't be even able to read the library rules, even less the address to it
Sorry guys, plan's off, this guy's wife said no.
There are usually late / all night coffee shops. Lots of good memories and conversations had there, and considerably cheaper (though not free).
That's the thing, though - if you're not spending money, you're not welcome. It's not your space, in any sense.
Don't got to tell me, I've held my coffee cup aloft like some kind of warding torch - proof that I'd paid a couple dollars to be here - back when I was hard up.
But if you've got money, it is a lot cheaper than a bar or a resto
If I ran the library, it would be mandatory.
I fucking wish!
That would be pretty dope
Every social and business interaction is engagement in public life!
No. Public Houses are called Public Houses for a reason.
They'd be full of children after school, loud, sticky, annoying children.
It's still a good idea, but libraries should be a quiet calm place, and I came feckin stick them when they've got kids running around and stuff. Ugh.
Are you British by the way?
The fuck? Abusing? They are homeless and just trying to survive and doing the best they can. They are making good use of their resources to embetter their own lives and the system allows for it. If homeless people go to the library perhaps the problem is not the homeless people but that THERE IS NO BETTER OPTION FOR THEM.
It is abuse in that it's misusing the resources for purposes not intended. Public libraries are not meant to be hotels for the homeless, and it ruins the experience for everyone else. Hate me all you want for saying it but its the truth.
a lot of people want homeless people to be killed, others won't admit outright but secretly think the same way.
by actually taking up the offers of drug treatment they are given. I used to work in a homeless shelter and you'd be blown away at how little they care about anything but getting high. They have resources tossed their way for free and they refuse them because they only care about continuing their life of debauchery and drugs.
Oh look, garbage
A majority of the homeless people in my local library are drug addicts. They are not people simply down on their luck. And they will continue to be homeless until they stop taking drugs. As long as they are on drugs/drinking there is no way out. And they refuse treatment most of the time.
It absolutely is a failing of the individual. It can still be a "disease" at the same time.
A few of them may be addicts and we extrapolate it to the whole group.
Oh please, most of them are. Drug addiction is the leading cause of prolonged homelessness, followed by mental illness.
Often times the unhoused become addicts after they experience homelessness,
And often times their addiction caused them to be homeless. I'm not sure what value there is in trying to prove exceptions when the general trends are clear as day.
Society has failed them.
I used to work at a homeless shelter when I was doing some community service work and I can tell you first hand most of them don't want help. They don't care. They just want drugs. They get offered treatment opportunities all the time but they refuse because they can't get loaded.
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If libraries were open late they would be filled with homeless people looking for a safe, warm place.
What I'm saying is we need safe warm places for the homeless AND libraries to be open late.
save