My religion is atheist?

2 years ago by Kintarian to c/atheism

I find it odd that when filling out a form that asked me what my religion is one of the choices is Atheist.

What now? That is the that opposite of religion.

MinusPi 89 points 2 years ago

Atheism is a religion the same way bald is a hair color.

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Nednarb44 26 points 2 years ago

I told a religious buddy of mine that atheism is a religion the same way "off" is a TV channel. He struggled to comprehend how that's even possible lol

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absGeekNZ 19 points 2 years ago

Thanks; I'm stealing that!

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Kintarian 11 points 2 years ago

Lol

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FlyingSquid 36 points 2 years ago

Philosophically, that's true. But I understand putting it in the religion column for the purpose of statistics. And 'none' and 'atheist' are two different possible answers. You can have no religion but believe very fervently in a god of your own conception.

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Mk23simp 22 points 2 years ago

That sounds more like "Other" than "None".

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FlyingSquid 7 points 2 years ago

Why? If you worship a god but don't subscribe to any dogma, accept any scripture or listen to any religious authority, you have no religion. You're just a theist.

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FuglyDuck 6 points 2 years ago

Why? If you worship a god but don’t subscribe to any dogma, accept any scripture or listen to any religious authority, you have no religion. You’re just a theist.

Except atheism is literally a lack of belief in a god or deity. If you believe in some type of deity, you're not an atheist. by default. Edit: I missread that. Sorry. Too much coffee and not enough sleep can cause halicuinations

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FlyingSquid 3 points 2 years ago

That was my point.

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Mk23simp 4 points 2 years ago

I guess it depends on your definition of religion. To me, it sounds like a personal religion, even if just one person believes in it. There are any number of religions too small to be included in their list, probably, so they should have an "Other" option, and that seems like the best fit for someone who has a personal set of religious beliefs that do not align with a listed religion.

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FlyingSquid 3 points 2 years ago

Or you could just keep it how it's always been for the purposes of easy tabulation.

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essell 4 points 2 years ago

I suspect Satanists and others on the left hand path would disagree but I agree you're functionally correct

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FlyingSquid 2 points 2 years ago

I would suggest that various flavors of Satanism have a dogma, and more than one version has scriptures, be they LaVey's book or the Satanic Temple's tenets.

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Cruxifux 5 points 2 years ago

I like the idea of putting “none.” I’m gonna start doing that instead of atheist.

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Kintarian 0 points 2 years ago

Wouldn't that be an agnostic?

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FlyingSquid 8 points 2 years ago

Wouldn't what be an agnostic? "None" for religion? No, as I said, you can not adhere to any religion but still have a devout belief in a god.

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Kintarian 2 points 2 years ago

Humans are so complicated

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FlyingSquid 9 points 2 years ago

True. And unfortunately, things sometimes have to be simplified for the purposes of statistics.

Honestly, I would rather something like a census have an accurate count of atheists than leave it off the form because it isn't technically correct to call it a religion.

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dohpaz42 1 point 2 years ago

No, agnosticism is more about the fact that God cannot be proven or disproven.

As for atheism being a religious choice: that’s exactly what it is, it’s a choice to not believe in any religion.

If you and I met on the street, and I were to ask you what your religion is, how would you answer me?

(My guess is you’d say you are an atheist. Same as that dropdown is asking you what your religion is.)

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EvenOdds 6 points 2 years ago

If you asked me what my religion is, I would answer that you have already pre-supposed that I have one. Even though I would know what you're actually asking, I would answer that way to bring more popularity to the idea that not having a religion is normal. Yeah I know, I'm fun at parties.

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Fondots 6 points 2 years ago

You can really go down a pretty deep rabbit hole here.

Strictly speaking, atheism is the lack of a belief in a god or gods. A-without, theism-belief in god(s)

There are religions out there that don't have a figure you can easily identify as a god, certain types of Buddhism for example, and so you wouldn't necessarily be wrong in calling followers of those religions "atheists"

But that's of course somewhat at odds with how we normally use the term atheism, and them prevent confusion we'd normally refer to these as "non-theistic religions" instead of "atheistic religions"

You can also get into the weeds about what even counts as a god, for example, certain types of taoism/daoism don't really have any particular god-like figures, but they do have the tao/dao (roughly translating to "path" sort of a natural order the the universe that you should try to be in sync with.) Is the dao a god? It's certainly not a personal god, something you can pray to and expect to get an answer back from, or that can/will intervene in the universe, it just sort of is and you're either on the path or you're not. You could certainly argue that it is a god, if an impersonal one, but it's definitely not what most people would think of as a god.

You can also have religions that don't really have anything they'd identify as a "god" but might have other lesser supernatural entities, things like spirits, demons, angels, ghosts, fairies, djinn, etc.

There's also UFO religions, where aliens are the primary figures and often a lot of their supernatural abilities might be explained away as just very advanced science is centuries beyond our own capabilities.

Going the other direction, you could theoretically have someone who believes that there is some sort of god out there, but makes no attempt to pray to them, worship them, doesn't take part in any sort of ritual or culture having to do with that belief, and pretty much just acknowledges that the god exists but that its existence has no particular impact on that person's life or the universe in general. You could very well call that person a non-religious theist. Many deists would fall into this sort of category.

Something I wish got a little more attention in these sorts of discussions is ignosticism/igtheism/theological noncognitivism, which is the camp I put myself into when I'm feeling really nitpicky, and I like to sum up as:

Theism: I believe that there is a god or gods

Atheism: I do not believe that there are any gods

Agnosticism: I'm not sure if there is a god, and maybe we can't ever know for sure

Ignosticism: What the fuck do you people even mean by "god." No one has come up with a clear definition yet so this argument is pointless.

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Kintarian 4 points 2 years ago

Whenever I've been asked I always say no religion

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Feyd 4 points 2 years ago

I would say I don't have one. Atheism is not a religion it is a description of a single attribute, lack of belief in any gods. People seem to think it means a lot more than it does.

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elucubra -5 points 2 years ago

No. Agnostic is not going either way. Atheism is a faith, because you deny the existence of a god without proof, just as theists claim its existence without proof.

Source: I’m an agnostic

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EvenOdds 8 points 2 years ago

I strongly disagree. Atheism is explicit lack of faith.

For all practical purposes, an atheist thinks that without evidence, it's safe to assume that there's no god or gods.

Would you say that you're genuinely completely agnostic in relation to every single religion that has ever existed, even the joke religions (like the flying spaghetti monster, etc)?

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absGeekNZ 3 points 2 years ago

This is a misunderstanding of atheism.

This is my view on religion:

I don’t believe in your imaginary friend; but don’t feel special, I don’t believe in anyone else’s imaginary friend either.

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elucubra 0 points 2 years ago

Oh, I don’t believe either, I just don’t assert either way. No proof either way. If you choose to believe the absence, you are believing, not knowing. Atheism is rather unscientific, while agnosticism is quite science compatible. Questioning is what advances knowledge.

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spaceghoti 2 points 2 years ago

You're using the modified definition of "agnostic" that believers favor. We have no reason to accept that.

"Agnostic" literally means "I don't know." "Atheist" means "I don't believe." I don't know that gods are real, and I have no reason to believe they do.

No faith required.

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elucubra 0 points 2 years ago

The moment you use believe you are in faith territory. Agnostics simply say that having no proof either way, we choose not to believe.

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mechoman444 20 points 2 years ago

Atheism is not a religion or worldview.

Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god or God's.

Many atheists including myself adhere to the statement of simply being unconvinced that there is a God or having no credible evidence to indicate a God's existence.

Maybe the form we were filling out legitimately needed that information but typically outside of a very specific set of data. I don't see why any form would ever ask you what your religion or lack of religion might be.

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Badeendje 3 points 2 years ago

In the medical world plenty of religions forbid certain things.. like blood transfusions. I can't really think of other places but I'm sure there are other legitimate use cases.

But I usually just trike out stuff that is irrelevant. If they seem it relevant they can press the issue and explain why.

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mindlesscrollyparrot 1 point 2 years ago

Surely atheism is the belief in the lack of a god. Agnosticism is the lack of belief in a god.

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Bahnd 7 points 2 years ago

Sorta, break down the roots of the words. Atheists activly deny that there is are gods (anti-theism), Agnostics (a-gnostic) are those who dont know, are unconvinced or those who simply dont care. If you really want to be pedantic (annoy your religious friends), point out that most theists are also atheists in a sense as they deny all gods, except for their own.

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mindlesscrollyparrot 3 points 2 years ago

Exactly. Lack of belief in gods is not the same as actively denying that there are gods.

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Bahnd 2 points 2 years ago

The issue is that in conversation its hard for theists to tell the difference between the two. To them it dosen't matter if I say "I think your wrong" or "I simply dont care", a lot of them will see someone who needs to be "saved". A non-zero number of them will be very annoying about that or be obstructive because of it, so its best to handle all religion based conversations with kid-gloves.

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gamermanh 2 points 2 years ago

Atheists activly deny that there is are gods (anti-theism), Agnostics (a-gnostic)

Wild to me that you would put these so close. A-theist, as in "not a theist", you got it right with gnosticism

The etymology of the word through French, Latin, and to Greek all mean that, too, "godless", not "against god"

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bastion -8 points 2 years ago

Atheism is, in point if fact, a world view.

There is a world. You have a perspective on that world. The assumptions you make and the things you believe, rational and irrational, are a world view. The concept that there is (or is not) credible evidence that gods, or planets, or whatever fundamental facets of existence, imaginary or otherwise, are either a world view themselves or are deeply rooted in your world view.

Q: does your world include unicorns? A: i don't know.

The answer stems from having a world view that does not categorically include nor exclude unicorns. But more to the point, when answering questions like:

Q: what is most likely the source of existence? A:

The answer, if actually responding to the question, is a world view, or deeply tied to a world view.

As to forms: forms are often limiting and don't include information we consider relevant, or do include information we consider irrelevant. So it goes. In any case, they would ask that information precisely because world views provide broad but effective indicators about an individual. Knowing that a large incoming group of hotel guests is Christian, for example, can be a useful metric, because you'll know that your hotel will make above-average pay-to-watch porn sales that weekend.

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MotoAsh 4 points 2 years ago
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bastion 0 points 2 years ago

Then, in conversation regarding atheists, I shall heretofore say "atheistic world view", rather than calling atheism a world view.

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mechoman444 1 point 2 years ago

Just using Google ai. Think before you speak.

world view: a particular philosophy of life or conception of the world. "I have broadened my worldview by experiencing a whole new culture"

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Atheism is not a worldview in the sense that it is a lack of belief in gods, and does not provide a comprehensive view of the world. However, many atheists tend to have a worldview that includes empiricist, positivist, or materialist beliefs, and a strong belief in science. This worldview is sometimes called "scientism".

Atheism is the rejection of the idea that gods exist, and is not a belief system that answers other questions about a person's beliefs. Atheists typically believe that the existence of gods is highly improbable, and that there is no persuasive evidence to support the belief.

Atheism is different from identifying as an atheist. While most atheists hold an atheistic worldview, not all of them do. In fact, only about half of those who hold an atheistic worldview identify as atheists.

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bastion 1 point 2 years ago

I did say "or are deeply rooted on a world view."

world view: a particular philosophy of life or conception of the world. "I have broadened my worldview by experiencing a whole new culture"

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Disbelief is a conception. By nature of the topic, it's a conception of the world. If someone were to say "I don't believe in black holes," that is by nature a conception of the world. One might reference it as merely an aspect of the world view, but it's still an atheistic (or theistic, or black-holist or anti blackholist) world view.

An atheistic world view doesn't mean atheism is what the world view is about, it means that by nature, the view excludes gods. Most people, for example, adhere to a non-unicornist world view.

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mechoman444 1 point 2 years ago

I lack a belief in a god or God's. That is not a world view.

However my world view stems from human secularism. One does not have to be an atheist to be a human secularist.

Lacking in particular belief does not define me as a whole person.

If you don't believe in unicorns that doesn't make you a "ununicornist".

In the same sense not believing in God doesn't necessarily make me an atheist.

But more importantly you're not using the words you're using correctly which is why I included the definitions or the concepts you're missing. I can tell you simply ignore those.

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JackGreenEarth 14 points 2 years ago

Atheist is tangential to religion, you have religious theists or atheists as religion is about a system of philosophy and ethics while theism is about belief in gods.

Irreligious, 'none' or 'does not apply' might be better.

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Kintarian 13 points 2 years ago

I appreciate the surveys that just say "doesn't apply".

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echo 12 points 2 years ago

Atheist is not a statement about your religion at all. I'm also an atheist and my 'religion' is basically secular humanist. Yours could be none, Unitarian Universalist, Buddhist, secular humanist, or any others that are compatible.

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Halasham 11 points 2 years ago

I don't intend this to be harsh or negative but I don't know how to phrase this nicely;

Secular Humanism is a philosophy, not a religion. Religions are faith-based while philosophies are based in some logical argumentation. The muddling of religion with philosophy linguistically serves only to tarnish philosophy and lend undue credence to religion. That language is so flexible can be beneficial but it can equally be detrimental when used like this.

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olafurp 2 points 2 years ago

In Iceland the beurocratic term for religion is "life opinion association". You can give your tax money to the secular humanist guys that do marriage ceremonies etc.

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echo 0 points 2 years ago
  1. I put religion in quotes to try to appease this take.
  2. You are being exceedingly literal and selective in your definition of religion.
  3. Ceding all rights to the word 'religion' to the xtian fundamentalists is not a good strategy.
  4. Your extreme position limits your ability to bridge with others which also limits your ability to affect change.
  5. I've had my 'militant atheist' phase and shared your inflexibility in the past. It wasn't healthy for me and it wasn't helpful for anyone.
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EvenOdds 9 points 2 years ago

I don't think there is anything "militant atheist" in the post you replied to.

I also consider myself a secular humanist, but would never describe myself as religious.

I think that normalising not having a religion would help to bring tolerance for people who have differing opinions, while calling secular humanist a religious view may reinforce a bias in some people that "you can't be good without religion".

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Halasham 8 points 2 years ago
  • Thanks.
  • The differentiation I used wasn't my own words, I got it from here, I figured I shouldn't go off just my own take. I suppose I should have specified that from the beginning.
  • I suppose there's a case to be made for that.
  • I don't see how you've got that I have an extreme position from 'Religions are faith-based while philosophies are based in some logical argumentation.'
  • Noted. I suppose I could try to find something not abhorrent about faith. I've long since stopped being angry about it but I'm still very much an Antitheist.
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Ookami38 -1 points 2 years ago

Regarding the last point, I'm not at all religious, but I've accepted that even from a purely logical and scientific standpoint, you have to just accept some things on faith. Our capacity for knowing is limited, there are certain "unknowable" things that we just have to accept.

The easiest example of this is what's going on in another person's head. You have to take on faith that the things they're saying to you is what's actually going on. More broadly, a lot of the things about the physical universe and the fact that it exists at all are things that, at least with our current level of science, we just can't know. We can make best guesses, but from there it's a faith.

I'd say faith is only a bad thing when it's used to make you so things you wouldn't want to do otherwise. The more I examine the church specifically, the more I realize it's not the faith based approach to understanding that I have issues with, it's the leaders using that to manipulate. Faith is, and should be, a very personal thing not subject to some governing body with very real biases and objectives.

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Kintarian 5 points 2 years ago

Wow, I just read about secular humanism, and it seems to be pretty much exactly how I feel about things. The human race could, through science, understanding, and cooperation, solve most of the problems that we are faced with. I like that.

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Kintarian 1 point 2 years ago

I never thought of that; that's interesting.

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wabafee 9 points 2 years ago

Just put Pastafarianism

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Illecors 5 points 2 years ago

Same. Goes to show how much thought and care has been put into it.

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JeeBaiChow 5 points 2 years ago

Depends if you define religion as 'act of worship', or 'belief aystem', I guess. Bhuddism would fail the first, but not the second.

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Kintarian 1 point 2 years ago

I usually think of religion as the belief in some sort of God or religious figure whether it's the Christian God or Vishnu or Odin or whatever it seems that it's more complicated than I had considered previously.

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JeeBaiChow 5 points 2 years ago

Yes, that's fair - depends on how the definition of the survey is worded. So something like satanism wouldn't be a religion to you? I get it confused with the church of Satan, but one or the other isn't about the worship of Satan. My grasp of Buddhism is it's about a belief system, one that believes following his example that leads to a better life/ inner peace, rather than straight worship, or asking him to use divine providence to make ones life better.

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HubertManne 5 points 2 years ago

its because if it was just none christians would count it as people who are just undecided and haven't accepted jesus.

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uriel238 5 points 2 years ago

The closest I have to religion is naturalist, which is to say based on the data I have, I can't find any evidence anywhere of supernatural effects, and while I haven't personally done the looking, the scientific consensus is that there's nothing, even when it comes to religious investigators actively looking for evidence of the stuff they expect to see.

To date, there are some pretty high bounties on evidence of various kinds of spooky shit that remain unclaimed.

Of course, I don't know this to be the case. The simulation hypothesis has not been ruled out, which would allow for effects we cannot detect. It doesn't stop me from worshiping my cat. (Cat-huffing. It's a thing.) And it raises questions whether we are the same person when we wake up after non-REM sleep, or a new iteration of the identity. (The transporter paradox). But so far, the most likely explanation is we're material girls living in a material world.

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Kintarian 9 points 2 years ago

In my opinion, if somebody states that there's something spooky going on, then the onus is on them to provide evidence and prove what they're saying. I don't have to do anything.

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FuglyDuck 4 points 2 years ago

"isn't it spooky how all the evidence just ups and dissapppears when you look at it?!"

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Kintarian 2 points 2 years ago

That experiment made my brain hurt

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FuglyDuck 2 points 2 years ago

Sorry.

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AngryCommieKender 3 points 2 years ago

Don't we have spooky quarks? I know we have strange ones, and charm quarks... Feels like we should have spooky quarks.

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Kintarian 3 points 2 years ago

We do have spooky action at a distance

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pumpkinseedoil 3 points 2 years ago

We have quantum entanglement, basically magic

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olafurp 1 point 2 years ago

Anything not fully understood by science is magic

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absGeekNZ 4 points 2 years ago

Atheism is a choice; where I choose evidence and logic.

To me it is basically:

I don't believe in your imaginary friend; but don't feel special, I don't believe in anyone else's imaginary friend either.

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Kintarian 5 points 2 years ago

I once told somebody that if you want to believe in a magic man in the sky, then go for it, but don't expect me to.

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Grogon 4 points 2 years ago

In my country we have "Konfessionslos" -> non-denominational.

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spankmonkey 6 points 2 years ago

Non-denominational is still religious/spiritual here, like Christians that aren't affiliated with a specific church.

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Grogon 3 points 2 years ago

Hm weird, I left religion and now I am labeled as "Konfessionslos". Dont pay anything to a church or anything that has to do with this fairytale story.

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spankmonkey 2 points 2 years ago

It could be that atheiests are lumped in with people who aren't members of an organized religion where you live.

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m0darn 1 point 2 years ago

It's interesting.

Does the word literally mean "confessionless"?

Could it literally mean either a person that doesn't take part in the Christian tradition of Confession? Or maybe a person that doesn't profess any beliefs?

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Dagwood222 4 points 2 years ago

Since 'atheism' means 'without religion' it's the same as putting in "none."

imho

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Tylerdurdon 3 points 2 years ago

There are different categories. I consider myself agnostic atheist. That pretty much means I don't really know, but all this man made stuff is horse shit.

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Flax_vert 2 points 2 years ago

It depends how you define "religion"

Atheism is a belief. You have a belief that there is no supernatural being or power. A lack of belief in anything is agnosticism, not atheism.

If you define religion as a belief (I would) then there you go. If it's a set of practices and dogmas, then technically Christianity isn't a religion and it's denominations are as they practice things differently and some have added dogmas or different interpretations, even though they believe in the same God and have the same fundamentals.

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dandi8 7 points 2 years ago

Then I'd have to assume your religion is also not-believing-in-unicorns and round-earthism, as well as humans-need-oxygenism.

Agnosticism is not a lack of belief, it is a stance that one doesn't know whether a god exists or not. Frequently, the "belief" would be that it's impossible to know, which, by your definition, would also make it a religion.

The argument does not hold up.

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Flax_vert 0 points 2 years ago

You're correct by your first paragraph, though.

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gamermanh 2 points 2 years ago

Atheism is a belief

No, it's not. Theism the belief in a higher power, put the prefix a- on it and you get "doesn't believe in a higher power"

Atheism is literally the lack of belief. It doesn't make a positive statement that there's not something there, it just means they don't believe

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Flax_vert 0 points 2 years ago

The lack of belief is agnosticism. Atheists believe that there is no god, which is an active belief

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gamermanh 1 point 2 years ago

You're just wrong, as I explained

It's amazing how often Jesus freaks will assert they know about other groups and then get their information 110% wrong because they only learned what their in group says about them

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Flax_vert 0 points 2 years ago

In your opinion, is there a god or god(s)?

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weker01 1 point 2 years ago

Nope agnosticism is the lack of knowledge.

It's two different and somewhat independent axes.

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CaptPretentious 2 points 2 years ago

I'm fine with it on like a drop down or a form. No need to make things needlessly complicated. It's basically 'none' except it's clear. 'none' could be misleading, atheist is exact.

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Kintarian 5 points 2 years ago

Doesn't really bother me. I just thought it was kind of strange. Now that I've seen some of the responses here, I'm realizing that things are a little more complex than I thought, so I need to adjust some of my opinions.

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Kolanaki 2 points 2 years ago

I am a literal ordained Dudist priest. I can, and even have, legally marry people. Because America is fucking crazy and makes this incredibly easy.

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Kintarian 1 point 2 years ago

I don't know, you should be able to practice whatever religion you want. The conservatives however see religious freedom as you can be whatever kind of Christian you want.

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adelita2938 2 points 2 years ago

If you're in the United States, the current situation decided by the judges is that Atheists have to argue as if they're a religion as well.

A lot of work will be needed to fix this error.

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Kintarian 2 points 2 years ago

Can I use the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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adelita2938 2 points 2 years ago

If you and your friends can argue that you have a prayer meeting spot for the spaghetti monster.

It's like a cheat code to get a judge to actually listen to how Christians are discriminating against your religion.

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Kintarian 1 point 2 years ago

Hail pasta!

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lurch 0 points 2 years ago

It's all a bit vague, but one could say "Atheist is a religion and Agnostic is none, because Atheists believe there is no god or afterlife" but often Agnostic is considered a type of Atheist.

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FuglyDuck 6 points 2 years ago

FWIW, you can have belief in the afterlife without a belief in some type of deity. For example, some forms of shammanism don't recognize any form of deity, and instead focus on the spirits of ancestors or of the natural world, but not as a divine thing.

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EvenOdds 3 points 2 years ago

People get very caught up in the definition of atheist and agnostic. It can mean very different things to different people.

Technically atheist is "without belief", and agnostic is "without knowledge".

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