With the implementation of Patch v0.5.5 this week, we must make yet another compromise. From this patch onward, gliding will be performed using a glider rather than with Pals. Pals in the player’s team will still provide passive buffs to gliding, but players will now need to have a glider in their inventory in order to glide.
How lame. Japan needs to fix its patent laws, it's ridiculous Nintendo owns the simple concept of using an animal to fly.
I'm unconvinced that the Nemesis system would have worked well in too many other settings, but one game patent that had a tangible effect on the industry was Bandai-Namco's patent on loading screen mini games. Remember how you could make the Soul Calibur II characters yell stuff while the match loaded? Funny that we didn't see it again until Street Fighter 6, isn't it? Conveniently after a patent would have expired. We went through an entire era of games with load times that could have benefited from mini games, and by the time the patent expired, we had largely come up with ways to get rid of load screens altogether.
Well saying the nemesis system wouldn’t have worked well in other games is almost assuming that it wouldn’t be changed or evolved to fit other genres. People forget that the real damage some patents/copyrights do is not in their explicit existence, it’s the sphere of influence they exert on related concepts entirely. We weren’t just robbed of the nemesis system, we were robbed of anything even slightly resembling it.
And I feel like once you understand that you realize it can be adapted to greater things. Spider Man games could have used it. Assassins creed would have been an amazing place for experimentation with those ideas. Could be adapted to Star Wars games, dragons dogma, yakuza, borderlands. And it doesn’t need to be a central focus of these games like it was with the WB games. But even the concept of having enemies that kill you be leveled up in some way is now tainted.
Horizon Zero Dawn would have been awesome with a nemesis system, especially if it was applied to the robo-dinosaurs. You could have the in-universe justification that a particular robot uploads its consciousness upon death and downloads into a new body, and now it remembers how you killed it before and it will adapt accordingly. Start having epic robots that know you, and you have to keep an eye out for them, but also upon being destroyed they could dispense better scraps.
Maybe it is a lack of imagination on my part, but that mechanic seems to rely heavily on characters that can be killed and come back to life with a vengeance on a regular basis, which I don't think makes sense in any of the settings you listed except for Borderlands, with its New-U stations, funny enough. You could adapt it into something where both you and an enemy are defeated non-lethally, I suppose, but that's a concept that strangely doesn't have a common template in video games.
Spiderman and Batman are literally famous for not killing their enemies, so I think your first sentence is way more than a maybe.
Who the hell in their right mind would want to buy a switch after seeing this?
most consumers don't care, that's why they're consumers. Switch 2 is gonna sell gangbusters and no amount of frivolous lawsuits is going to put a dent in that.
Plus you still have people mad at Palworld for no reason other than they think it "copied" Pokémon, like the guy getting downvoted into oblivion.
All the nintendo boot licking neckbearded incels that you see defending the company like if its their own.
Children will, from their parents who don't see these articles or care, just that their kid is entertained.. Don't be an ass.
Even that group is a tiny minority. Most buyers are people who just want to play Nintendo games and don't care about anything else.
Amazon has a patent on the "one click purchase" button...
Unfortunately, at least in the US (and from the sound of it, probably Japan), the patent office has the viewpoint of 'patent everything and let the courts sort them out.' The courts, on the other hand, defer to the patent office because 'it's they're job so they must know what they're doing.'
patenting, copyrighting, or trademarking concepts or mechanics in video games shouldn't be allowed at all
It's not allowed at all in board games. There's a known issue that someone could completly copy the mechanics of a board game, and as long as they don't copy the art or the exact text of the rulebook there is no legal means to stop it.
Boardgamers are aware of this, and agree that it is better for development of future games than if someone could own the idea of "rolling a dice", so if knockoffs do come around they tend to quickly get called out and not purchased.
I don't know how videogames managed to get different rules.
I don't know how videogames managed to get different rules.
A lot of people in those offices really don't understand the technical mumbo jumbo that can be summed up as "doing something that already exists, but on a computer"
Like scanning a document on a printer and immediately sending it as email. That was patented
It's the using a creature to glide that's the specific problem this time. Not the "using a creature" per se, but "pressing a button to instantly summon a non-player-controlled game-creature to allow for gliding, which is instantly dismissed once the player touches the ground" or something like that in the patent
Which is equally insane, no?
Yes, the more you read the patent the more you just want to grab whoever approved it and force them to explain how and why it deserved it, despite lots of prior implementations.
As described in the patent, yes. You press one button, you start riding said mount. If it's glider mount, it automatically changes to the stag once you touch the ground OR to the fish if you fall to the water.
Palworld never had this "automatic change from one mount to another", at best it was the glider pals that you didn't have to manually summon in order to glide and went away once you touched the ground or water. I've skimmed the patent a few times, but I don't recall it having a case for going from creature-assisted-gliding to back on foot
Introduce a .5 second delay before dismissing the creature upon touching the ground.
Nintendo is just a garbage lawsuit company that sometimes makes hardware with stupid subscriptions attached.
and none of it matters, cause they have literal legions of fans that will ride their ride, no matter how much it costs, no matter how poorly made it is, no matter how much nintendo spits in their face.
So Nintendo sees no significant economic repercussions from their behavior, and thus has incentive to change.
I was one of those but they were losing me more and more every year... But 3 years ago it became way too much, and I got off the bandwagon. Screw that lol.
I hope they don't make as many sales as they expect... But you may be right, too many people who will buy their crap however expensive and how much they're being mistreated by the company.
I'm not so sure.
All of my friends who are less pissed off at Nintendo than I am are not even considering buying a Switch 2 because Nintendo basically priced themselves out of the market. All of my friends who have a Switch 1 will not be buying the Switch 2, that's pretty significant IMO, but I guess we'll see.
I agree, they definitely priced themselves out of several demographics including casual gamers, parents of young children gamers, and "I guess I'll get a switch as a second device" gamers. These people aren't going to look at a switch that's roughly the same price as the ps5 and xbox and think "yeah let's grab that one".
The wii u showed their demographic of "die hard fans that buy no matter what" is actually really small compared to the rest of their sales. And I think we're going to see a repeat of that.
and for every one like you.
Theres people who buy multiple of the console.
One person in my family bought 4 of the Nintendo Switch. One for him, his wife, and one each for each of their two grand kids.
and they also buy multiple copies of games, so they don't have to worry about wanting to play a game someone else is already playing.
and I would not be shocked at all if they buy at least two of the Switch 2 the second it becomes commonly available.
Lemmy constantly falls into the same social trap as reddit: that we think we're some monolith of consumerism and when we believe something we think everyone else will be on our side.
Go on YouTube and look up the hundreds of videos from the past few months alone of scalpers and other Pokemon buyers getting into actual physical fights, buying literally 10+ of those huge box sets, and camping out at those vending machines and buying literally everything in them the minute they restock.
I'm a vendor at comic and anime conventions here in the US. I did a show last month that was literally 99% Pokemon cards and merch, and everyone was buying that shit up regardless. There were actually maybe five booths including my own that weren't selling just Pokemon stuff, if at all.
Since when is flying on a monster patentable. What a bunch of bullshit. Nintendo has really used up the last of any good will the company had. I will not be giving them a dime from here on out.
Yeah, Nintendo seems to think they are untouchable. They can do whatever, charge whatever, not even innovate anymore with the Switch 2, and attack fans. I'm done with Nintendo, the only way I'll ever play any of their games is on the high seas.
Wait i can't fly on Pals now?
Does that mean that Ark can't fly on dinosaurs?
TIL. Good. Cause I liked my spaceship dragon
Oh man, let me know when the rewards are named so I can give a speech.
First, I'd like to thank ADHD
Nintendo ownes the IP of hangliders now.
Nintendo will never see another cent from me for this petty bullshit. My kids will play with other toys.
Palworld did more for the monster-collecting genre in one early access title than Pokémon has in the last decade of AAA titles.
Why does Nintendo deserve these patents when they aren't going to produce anything meaningful with them and simply weaponize them to squash any real threatening competition?
Pokémon is the highest grossing franchise in the world, and 2nd place isn't even close. I think they can give a little ground to an indie developer who makes games that people are actually interested in playing. The patent bullshit is ridiculous.
Because that's how Nintendo works. They are the Disney of gaming.
This is bullshit. Warner Brothers and Nintendo need to lose, hard.
Also, why the hell does Nintendo think they were first when it comes to the concept? Animals and gliding have been a thing for a long time.
You see, the patent system is based on a “first to file the paperwork” basis, thereby enabling literal legalized theft. Neoliberalism at work, precisely as designed.
the patent system is based on a “first to file the paperwork” basis
then blame the patent office, because it shouldn't be so
I definitely blame the patent office.
But also, patents should not exist. They need to be completely abolished. Copyrights are one thing, copyrights make sense, patents are another entirely, existing solely to facilitate intellectual theft from both individual entities and the broader public.
I'm a little torn on this.
On the one hand, let's be real - clearly PalWorld takes more than a little "inspiration" on a bunch of different Pokemon IP. The illustrations, modeling, and just visual style overall matches in many ways almost perfectly for many of the creatures. They are like off-brand versions of Pokemon with the exact same eyes, mouth types, etc. in many cases as if they were illustrated by Ken Sugimori himself
.
Additionally, the game involves using handheld ball devices thrown at wild world-roaming creatures you capture after cutting down their health by some amount to increase the catch percentage and different "grade" balls have increased chance for capture.
There is also a nefarious organization competing with you for capturing these wild creatures like Team Rocket.
But on the OTHER hand, the leveling up, breeding, base-building, the various ability tech-trees, item crafting, and just overall engine complexity is VASTLY superior to what appears to now be an almost EMBARRASSINGLY behind set of game design mechanics in the actual Pokemon games... it's sort of a Saints Row vs GTA IV situation here where they were an obvious copy off, but improved in enough ways that ended up being a fun game in itself.
Copying off exact art asset styles is one thing you shouldn't do... but taking Nintendo's gameplay ideas and expanding upon them vastly and being told to remove said mechanics as if they stole code is asinine and sets a bad precedent.
Every time there's been a popular game, there are a thousand copies off them that twist and evolve those mechanics until something else comes along.
Nintendo came along with platformers after Pitfall on Atari. Sonic copied 2D platforming basics from Mario like running to the right and jumping on enemies but changed so much. Final Fantasy copied off Dragon Quest, which itself was a digital idea based off of Dungeons & Dragons. Doom to games like GoldenEye to Halo to Call of Duty to PUBG to Fortnite to APEX Legends...
This feels like taking advantage of grey area in the realm of visual IP similarity to shut down someone making their gameplay design mechanics look antiquated by comparison.
Really embarrassing for Nintendo to be doing this, when clearly what Nintendo should be doing is doing like what Fortnite did when APEX came along and added location / enemy / weapon call outs and just STEALING the mechanics they weren't clever enough to think of on their own and implement better versions in their own games... but clearly they'd just rather have a monopoly and continue lackluster work.
There are over 1,000 pokemon. I think it's a Tolkien situation- where famously, you can't write fantasy without using ingredients that Tolkien created, because if you do, obviously it's from Tolkien, and if you didn't, the reader is asking why not? That kinda deal.
If you set out to create a game involving collecting, or even looking at and cataloguing, a bunch of different fantasy creatures, you're going to have some that are at least a little similar to pokemon. The electibuzz/grizzbolt example you gave is a fantastic one. You're claiming it's stolen, but that there is a cat creature with a single lightning bolt in it's belly. Versus a... monkeything? Covered in them. My point here being, even if they didn't steal (which, I'm sure they did, there are other, better examples) at a certain point you have to accept that with 1,000 pokemon, there's going to be overlap, so you either need to just be up front about the stealing, or you need to spend 5x the amount of development time making sure none of your creatures have overlap.
Personally, Pokemon has been around for more than 25 years. Even if they released a million games a year, they shouldn't get to gatekeep 'all creature-collection simulators that you use balls for and that you can ride like a dragon.' Fuck that. They got infinite money back on their initial investment, and they shouldn't be allowed to just own the ideas. This is the kind of bullshit that makes me (a lifelong pokemon fan) want to never, ever, ever give them money again.
If you set out to create a game involving collecting, or even looking at and cataloguing, a bunch of different fantasy creatures, you're going to have some that are at least a little similar to pokemon
I think Cassette Beasts pulled off the Pokemon gameplay format without making anything that Nintendo could try and sue over.
Add one to the list. Really enjoyable, even fun to cheese, not very fond of the ending but otherwise stellar.
That sounds like a "look someone managed to pull that off so it's definitely possible" argument. In other words "you can enter the collectable creatures scene by spending that amount of effort". And it shouldn't be that way. The price in effort shouldn't be that high.
Actually, it should be the customers who decide if your product is worth the effort of playing it. There are a lot of rehashed games in various genres (e.g. horrors, walking simulators) and wee see no issue with them even though they are using exactly same mechanics, or sometimes even assets. What matters is users' reception. If users think your product is worth it - it means you spent enough effort already. If your product would be a low effort creation users wouldn't spend money on it in the first place.
I'm sure if Cassette Beasts could accumulate that kind of playerbase and profits, Nintendo would've sued them too.
Bingo. In many ways, but not all, palworld was lazy, and unoriginal.
Design wise maybe, but game play wise, performance wise, mechanic wise.
PalWorld is 100% not lazy in these categories and Pokemon is.
My issue with people taking on PalWorld as a copy cat is it's really a shit argument. PalWorld is a copy cat of Ark and a much better version of Ark.
Change Pals to anything else. Turn the ball into a net and it isn't a Pokemon copy cat.
Competition is great. My take on this entire thing is fuck Nintendo.
If you set out to create a game involving collecting, or even looking at and cataloguing, a bunch of different fantasy creatures, you’re going to have some that are at least a little similar to pokemon.
If you search for a fox fire witch you'll see different interpretations on that. But somehow Palworld made a fox fire witch extremely close to an art of a fanmade Mega Delphox.
It's not an official pokémon but no way in hell they're didn't just create the pal based on this art, it's just too similar.
But that's not the point of this lawsuit. They patented broad game mechanics and are successfully litigating ownership of those ideas.
I'm not talking about the lawsuit, I'm responding about the idea that eventually people will create monsters that looks similar to Pokémon because of the vast amount of Pokémons, Palworld clearly tried to be close as legally possible.
Honestly? I see more Totoro in there than Electabuzz.
Where does the line get drawn between inspiration and stealing? I’m not trying to be facetious, it’s just the kind of question that I think a lot of people will have vastly different answers to.
The line? Usually you need to be doing something conceptually different. This knockoff electrabuzz wouldn’t have raised as many eyebrows if it was in a farming simulator, or a card game.
It’s like if you had a chainsaw gun in your game, and your game was a third person shooter set in a dark gritty sci-fi world where you are fighting subterranean monsters called the Focus Board.
clearly PalWorld takes more than a little “inspiration” on a bunch of different Pokemon IP
There's 1025 Pokemon at this point in time - how the hell are you supposed to create a unique pokemon at this point in time? Even pokemon can't create unique pokemon anymore.
The same way Digimon, Monster Hunter monsters, and every other unique IP looks nothing like Pokemon. Make completely original designs that don’t look like fan art or knock offs of another artist’s specific trademark style.
I just assume that as long as everyone is fine with derivations produced by AI (text, pics, music), all derivations that don't look exactly like original Pokemon are fine (also real people put some effort into those). Palworld compared to Pokemon is a much better product than, say, Fifa XX compared to Fifa XX-1. Also Pokemon series is notorious for useless editions of the same games masked as separate products - that level of rehashing feels much more illegal to me.
Any trademarks they need because Nintendo have allegedly been filing new patents mid-lawsuit in order to justify suing palworld.
I'm a little torn on your comment, because om the one hand you are right and on the other these lawsuits have nothing to do with the designs or art style at all.
Pokemon straight ripped off mother nature though.
At a fundamental level, why should copyright exist? Is it helping society here by incentivizing Nintendo? No. Contemporary copyright has it wrong, and I think your starting assumptions ignore that fact.
If I spend millions of my own money and hundreds or thousands of hours of my own time to build something, another company should not just be able to yoink that, put a coat of paint on it, and leave me with nothing to show if theirs just happens to get more popular or be advertised a little better. I don't think the current laws are good but, absent basic income and such for everyone, I see why something should exist.
Sorry but why not? If you can't afford that don't make it or don't publish it.
We see with open source that lack of copyright is not restricting anyone's creativity and ability to create. In fact the open source world is significantly more creative and productive than proprietary one.
open source doesn't pay my mortgage, pay back any business loans, put food on my table, etc. as the sole breadwinner in my family.
To be clear, I have contributed in a minor degree to open source and build things for fun; this is specifically about why copyright exists in certain domains. I also think it should be something more like 3-5 years max. I am a software engineer and used to work in the games industry for a number of years (though not anymore).
That VGC site has a pretty good sum up of Palworld: cynical and souless, but nonetheless a pretty fun game to play, and I fully agree. Pretty much every design up to version 0.3 was fully copied from pokemon. The more recent patch that added the big island on the south has more original-looking monster designs, though others are still pretty obvious ripoffs.
Additionally, the game involves using handheld ball devices thrown at wild world-roaming creatures you capture after cutting down their health by some amount to increase the catch percentage and different “grade” balls have increased chance for capture.
They did that on Craftopia, too, only it was to catch animals rather than monsters.
There is also a nefarious organization competing with you for capturing these wild creatures like Team Rocket.
Not really. There is a criminal syndicate, a bunch of violent hypocritical hippies, a corrupt police and some Borderlands style psychos, none "competing" with you, they just want you dead. I think only the syndicate would "count as team rocket", but they're up for all crimes.
This feels like taking advantage of grey area in the realm of visual IP similarity to shut down someone making their gameplay design mechanics look antiquated by comparison.
Palworld became a target at first because of that visual similarity but, as much as the pals obviously resemble pokemons, they're visually different enough to be considered original and a case on those grounds alone would go nowhere. Which is why Nintendo shifted from IP to Patent bullshit.
I started using it last week. It works well so far although I have only played the new donkey Kong. Take note that Torzu has gone to the dark web, so if you want it you need to go through TOR. This is good because this makes take down near impossible.
Torzu is a fork of Yuzu, so essentially the same thing, just being kept updated. I am not familiar with emudeck but I am sure it will be compatible. I know files like saves etc from Yuzu work with Torzu.
Yeah, right... /s
😂
I have a private git copy of every recent open-source Switch emulator. I don't have a use for them, for now at least, but at least their work won't be lost.
Remember they amended the patent after palworld came out
That is very true, but the Venn Diagram overlap between Gamers^TM^ and ‘Nintendo gamers’ is a rapidly shrinking area.
I've seen no evidence of this. People are clamoring for the switch 2 and talking about all they want to buy. Fuck Nintendo, but people keep giving them money so they're going to keep doing anti-consumer shit with no sign of any government stopping them. The government isn't going to attack one of the most beloved companies in Japan whose mascot they used at their olympics. A lot of Japanese are event against things like free, labour-of-love randomizers made for old games. People need to stop buying their shit globally if they want anything to happen.
That has happened my whole life, I'm 44. Nintendo supposedly does low first batch numbers so the can get in the news that they sold out. Then scalpers sell the machines for $1500.
Sure but I don't see any evidence of Nintendo's decline. The truth is that gamers are incredibly spineless and will continue to bootlick corporate boot unless they put "something woke in the game" at which point they'll leave a review somewhere and still clock in 300 hours if entertained enough.
Fuck Nintendo.
I don't care about Palworld, but I do hate Nintendo. Enemy of my enemy and all that.
I don't care about it either personally, but my wife really enjoys playing the game with friends, and I'm pissed on her behalf. Luckily, she's told me the devs are being really good about making the changes feel good (not like a punishment).
I can get the pokéball, but mounts in games are older than pokémon. That one makes no sense.
Both older and newer, yet they didn't go after the countless games that have mounts.
That would be a nice "fuck you," but it's probably not worth the extra effort to them.
It would be neat if modders put all the "patent-infringing" stuff back in.
That's another thing if they could allow specific api and opensource those parts they remove so someone can create mod that brings all of this back. Like we removed it but we make those things opensource, do what you want, we don't care. It's not in paid version of our app.
Most companies do stuff like that but pocketpair is based in Japan so they can't, they'd be held accountable.
I think everyone understands that nintendo are bad guys in this this situation but pocketpair is just scared. They just say we want to get over it as soon as possible to focus on our game. I understand that small company is scared of old, long timer in this business. But they need to turn it over because if they behave like a sheep they will be eaten by wolf.
If they could change narrative and simply add. We removed those things and replaced it with this but we don't care what you do with our game. Here is api. Do what the fuck you want.
Sorry, I meant that most companies do fixes to comply with local legislations/sentences and then ignore them everywhere else, Pocketpair can't do that because they are being sentenced in their home jurisdiction, so their infractions in other jurisdictions could and would still be brought to court.
Copyright and patent laws need to die.
This is such an extremely naive thing to say.
Do you enjoy having every good, innovative US or EU product die immediately due to China/India making a 1:1 copy and flooding the markets with it?
Enjoy innovative products that startups create? How about not having any of that because as soon as a startup makes something, a big corp comes in with their money, steals the idea, and floods the market?
EDIT: no arguments, just downvotes? Damn, I thought this place was supposed to be better than Reddit...
Chinese companies famously ignore patent law and do make copies and try to flood the western market with them.
Most startups don't have the time and/or money to patent their ideas and big corps do squash them/steal their ideas routinely once they become noticeable.
If anything, startups can't develop their ideas because some company will hold a generic patent like "clicking a button does something" (or "glide with a pet") from 30 years ago.
Chinese companies famously ignore patent law and do make copies and try to flood the western market with them.
But western companies at least have a tool to fight back or limit the flood.
Most startups don’t have the time and/or money to patent their ideas and big corps do squash them/steal their ideas routinely once they become noticeable.
Ah, the usual "if the solution is not absolutely 100% perfect, let's throw out the solution". Come on...
If anything, startups can’t develop their ideas because some company will hold a generic patent like “clicking a button does something” (or “glide with a pet”) from 30 years ago.
Yeah, this happens all of once every billion times. Clearly the system is stupid and needs to be killed so that nobody who isn't extremely rich can actually develop anything new without being immediately put out to pasture.
Yes, US companies have a lot of IP conflicts with China and we do tend to hear about them through media. But that paints a skewed picture of what's actually happening.
If you were to research it more carefully, you would find out that the vast majority of these claims (>90%) are not pursued by US companies. As a deliberate, strategic decision. They don't want to.
Ask yourself why.
Don't believe me? Google is your friend.
I just wanna know which amazing video game innovations We are protecting here in America. Are we talking about the failing franchises that have been milking their customers for 15 years? Have we done anything really innovative recently? Remakes delayed games and flops.
You would be correct if that is how the copyright and trademark system actually worked.
But they don't. They favour the big guy, not the little guy. Crazy, I know. Wait until you find out how modern taxation systems work.
They favour the big guy, not the little guy
That's the US law system, not the IP system in general.
There are examples of smaller companies managing to protect their IP (Finjan vs Symantec, Unwired Planet vs. Huawei, Neo Wireless vs. Sony, etc., etc - that's just from a quick search).
I'm not saying that the copyright system in place is perfect, but saying "copyright and patent laws need to die" is just delusional.
Patents have an expiry for a reason and the expiry date is pretty generous IMO. It's thought as "Startup x can invent and make money off it but after it the market should take over so further improvements can be made." Imagine if they patented CRISPR Cas9 or the first DNA sequencing method. It would limit science for the entire time of the expiry but not after.
Claiming invention patent for the pokeballs more than 20 years after the game came out is absurd. They can keep the brand, trademark and IP for their weirdly long time but innovations should become public so the market can continue innovating.
Then go back to reddit? You are daft as fuck defending this crap. Nintendo patenting game mechanics shouldn't be a thing.
Fuck Nintendo and its supporters.
You clearly can't read. Enjoy those downvotes for being a moron.
I don't think patents and copyright "need to die", but they are currently both overly broad and last far too long. Copyright protection especially has no justifiable reason to be even 1/4 as long as it is.
every good, innovative US or EU product die immediately due to China/India making a 1:1 copy and flooding the markets with it?
If it's a perfect 1:1 copy why does it matter? Can you explain how this isn't just a stance rooted in xenophobia?
Enjoy innovative products that startups create? How about not having any of that because as soon as a startup makes something, a big corp comes in with their money, steals the idea, and floods the market?
You just described the dream of most startups. The goal of the vast majority is to be acquired by a big corp so that their idea/product can continue growing, because without acquisition growth is severely limited.
If it’s a perfect 1:1 copy why does it matter? Can you explain how this isn’t just a stance rooted in xenophobia?
First of all: very often it's literally a 1:1 copy.
Secondly: imagine you make an innovative product. I don't know, automatic fence painter, whatever. It sells well, but you don't have the money to start a large-scale production, you're doing OK with sales and are looking for investors, but things are fairly slow. In comes a Chinese dude, buys one auto-painter from you, brings it home, dismantles the thing, copies everything (potentially making some changes), and starts a massive-scale production in his factory. Due to the mass-production, worse materials, and lower labour costs, he sells the product at 20% the price of yours. The market is saturated with his knock-off, you're left with zero money.
Is this xenophobia to you? Or someone stealing your product and killing your business?
The goal of the vast majority is to be acquired
Yeah, I'm not talking about them being acquired. What gave you that idea? I specifically used the words "steals their idea".
imagine you make an innovative product. I don't know, automatic fence painter
Do you know why there doesn't exist automated fencepost painters? As bad as this sort of stuff is in software world it's soooo much worse in hardware world. The licensing fees for every single little piece of IP that go into it would nickel and dime even large businesses out of building anything like that. Sure there's also technical difficulties with building one, but those are surmountable. However, a business model that could survive the constant threats of litigation, licensing fees and turn even a mild profit does not exist.
Is this xenophobia to you?
Yes, because you just described what businesses throughout the Western world do to your mythical small business and projected it onto some mythical far east.
someone stealing your product and killing your business?
You do realize that is the point of IP right? To allow legalized theft in this exact manner? In the exact article this comment chain is discussing palworld did their due diligence to verify they weren't violating any of Nintendo's IP and then Nintendo modified their patent filing so that they were with the express goal of stealing their product.
Do we enjoy the premise of capitalism where businesses compete to make the best and cheapest product for the consumer?
Yes. Yes we did up until a few months ago.
A few months ago?! lol sure ok.
We are getting cheap but we are not getting anywhere close to best and it’s been that way for at least a decade.
Also was loosly talking about my increased business costs associated with china tariffs. Let the chinese steal shit and make it cheap for me thats what im talking abou.
I'm talking about 70$ games man. Im talking about IP being locked away for decades. Genres of games dying off to push profitability of bigger projects. Strangling out smaller studios any way possible. I'm talking about Gamers. They came for GAMERS.
This is insane - Pokemon cannot trademark having mounts in games. Screw Niantic, the Pokemon company and especially Nintendo which basically controls the first two. Screw them
Do not support these companies.
Sincerely, A life long Pokemon fan
I can see why patents are so long when you need to build like a billion dollar factory to make a product and mass produce it.
Digital concepts don't take that much investment and once you have it you don't need to invest in making more, it's just there.
So yes, digital patents should be a fraction of the time that physical patents should be. Like 2 years instead of 20.
2 years seems like a nightmare for indie developers. Do you want a bunch of AI Chinese cash grabs pushing things out like Hollow Knight 2: Microtransaction Edition or Stardew Valley Romance Sims? Because without IP protection, indie developers will get creamed.
I don't remember all of the differences, but I think you're conflating copyright, patent, and trademark here. Software patents should almost not be a thing, but copyright and trademark should still exist.
Copyright if elements of the game such as 3D models, images and code have been copied.
Trademark if the name of the game is used (i.e. "Stardew Valley Romance Sims").
Patents for game mechanics.
As a side note, personally I think that game mechanics shouldn't be at all patentable
You don't need a patent to protect the IP of a game. That's what copyright is for.
Digital patents should not exist. Period.
For trivial software features like these, definitely not. I think patents start to make sense in the area of really advanced algorithms, like SAT solvers, ML, and so on. So conditional on patents in general making sense, those kinds of patents seem legit to me.
Here's hoping Pokemon and Nintendo see disappointing sales. Everytime someone brings up Pokemon, bring up Palworld and how massive of a dick the Pokemon Company/Nintendo was. When people talk about the Switch 2, they bring up all the lawsuits Nintendo brought up on fans, all the YouTubers that dealt with issues because suing people, I'd assume, is Nintendo's main income source at this point..
Worthy cause but a slim hope. Everyone who's been planning to continue supporting Nintendo, and who I have talked about these issues with, most of them echo the sentiments and agree that Nintendo is bad, but go on to say '...but in the end, my favorite franchises are exclusive to Nintendo so...'. I fear nothing can make a dent in the nostalgia abuser that is Nintendo, not like this.
i doubt it, 10s millions still are pokemon fans, majority are children + they also have the TRADING card game which i heard they are making bank on that too, and then the extra side games like GO, and pocket, only boosts pokemons popularity.
they dint fall in sales when they enshittified sword and shield and beyond. they rightfully sued some research instituition, because naming some of thier stuff after oncogene is bad press.
I don't play Palworld, but still hate firms that behaves like this. Not buying Nintendo anymore 🥳 Emulators from here on :)
Patenting common stuff like this is just stupid! Think I read somewhere that Apple patented squares with rounded corners 😂 Hope Nintendo doesn't use rounded corners in any of their in-game menus.
I though patents were ment to protect important original ideas. Stuff with impact.
Why is there nothing in place to punish Ninendo for doing shit like this?
Patent law is rigged. Legal monopolies shouldn't exist.
Legal monopolies shouldn’t exist.
I agree IP law is messed up, but that doesn't mean the idea doesn't have merit.
Having a temporary, legal monopoly on something that requires a lot of R&D and not much production cost (say, a novel or new kind of asphalt) allows the creator to make back their R&D costs before competitors come out with cheaper alternatives. Without that protection, companies would be less likely to invest in R&D.
We need shorter durations and more scrutiny on scope. Also, patents should generally not apply to software.
that doesn’t mean the idea doesn’t have merit.
As an incentive structure for corporations and "people" purely motivated by avarice, sure.
Most people naturally want to create and contribute as long as their needs and most basic wants are met. A monopoly as an incentive is not necessary.
Without that protection, companies would be less likely to invest in R&D.
There are many ways to motivate corporations to do R&D outside of offering them a monopoly on a silver platter. Incentives are only one half of the equation. Its really all about leverage.
There are many ways to motivate corporations to do R&D outside of offering them a monopoly on a silver platter
The main alternative is offering them a subsidy on a silver platter, but then you're making everyone pay for that R&D, not just the customers who want whatever that product is, and there's no protection against IP theft unless the government owns and enforces the patents or something abroad.
I personally prefer the IP law approach, but I think it needs significant reforms, both in duration and the approval process.
With a monopoly, you may very well be making everyone pay for the increased price gouge that comes with monopolies. Not just the customer of that particular product. It depends on the nature of the product.
If it is a component of a more common device or product, basically everyone ends up paying more (HDMI comes to mind). If its an innovation relating to a basic need and gets integrated with the majority of services, basically everyone ends up paying more. If its something that has external implications on the market or wider world that creates inefficiencies, then people functionally make less money because effect people pay more and thus long term this harms spending on a variety of products. If people can't afford the price gouge and continue using less effective products (assuming they are even available) they likely long term spend more money to make up for the inefficiencies from that.
Monopolies damage things beyond the product that gets monopolized and merely concentrates wealth.
Regardless a subsidy is not the only alternative. That's still thinking in terms of carrot, and you are forgetting the stick. You can also legislate mandatory R&D in budgets for large corporations based on revenue/profits just as much as you with the punishment of potentially being fined/taxed more.
But outside of that, there is also government contracts. That is, a single payer, (monopsony) generally can get fantastic results out of competing firms. Its largely a major reason why the American Military has historically benefited from such significant technological advancements for nearly a century now.
The main alternative is offering them a subsidy on a silver platter, but then you're making everyone pay for that R&D
R&D for many companies is taking the research done by underpaid graduate and PhD students and using that to create some sort of product or buying out the startups those students created and building from that.
We already live in a system where the majority of costs are publicly subsidized (and that's not mentioning the myriad of direct subsidies these companies receive, for an especially egregious example look at the amount Pfizer got paid to develop the Covid vaccine) and then the result is patented and privatized.
How is it that pokemon has a hold on things like animals allowing flight, but gliders allowing flight isn't under patent?
Like, whoever did gliders first needs to sue Nintendo to change breath of the wild, no gliders allowed anymore.
Wonder who owns the rights to Fly Boy now?
Wouldn't a game mechanic/animation like that be equivalent to a stunt in a movie?
Like, imagine if a film director wanted to blow up a car in his movie, but was getting sued by Paramount because Michael Bay already blew up a car in Transformers.
The last Nintendo console I bought was the Nintendo DS lite. The last Nintendo product I bought was Age of Empires DS The Age of Kings.
As you can probably tell, that was a rather long time ago. Since getting my first TTDS flash card I've more or less exclusively pirated Nintendo things. I'll just continue doing that.
News like this isn't giving me any remorse.
I've only pirated old stuff, games from my youth that are collectible items now for silly money or a complete crapshoot on whether 30 year old tech has stood the test of time.
If I had the time to play them I would definitely see my conscience clear on pirating new stuff from them now.
I jailbroke my Switch after they went after Yuzu in March last year. Every time I read about them, it makes pirating new games on it more satisfying. I'm really gonna enjoy Metroid Prime 4 on it!
I wonder how much of this game they can force them to change. I know Steam has a 2 hour limit for returns but at what point does this game become “not the game I bought”?
Nah, not complaining, idly wondering. I made my bed, I’ll sleep in it, I’m just wondering how far a game can go to change a game and still claim it’s the same game.
Theseus' Game
Yuuup, Palworld was a rare early access buy for me. Burned too many times but a sale burnt a hole in my pocket after holding off for years and I got curious, I knew what I was getting into haha
Pretty much anything so long as Palworld doesn't have 1.- a backbone and 2.- a dictionary at hand. Because it is as simple as finding a picture of any of a long list of animals that can glide, state the words "previous art" and they should be free from this ridiculous demand.
Mechanics that already exist in nature should not be copyrightable. Can you imagine if the first videogame company ever patented "character walking"?
point does this game become “not the game I bought”?
Anytime you can’t access the version of a game you spent money on
That's lame af. Flying on my dragon dude between my bases was badass.
palword wouldve solved some of its problem by not naming it to close to POKEMON names, or gimmicks, or copy verbatim some of its features. they only noticed when things were named exactly like they did in the pokemon consoles.
kinda wierd thing to target, when flying was in WOW for 2 decades before this lawsuit.
-after looking at another post, they also copied the pokemon and changed it very little of the pal-creature, palword needs ot do better to have a stronger case.
I think there is potential that this was intended.
PalWorld was SO on the nose modeled after pokemon plus Breath of the Wild that it couldn't be anything but a stab at Nintendo. And yet, it seems that (I'm not a lawyer) they skirted around ever actually infringing on copyrights. If you want to build a zoo full of creatures, there are only so many ways you can combine things without making a fire dog or ice dragon, and then comparisons can be made. PalWorld has many creatures that I don't recognize as being similar to existing pokemon. Given that Nintendo has not gone after PalWorld for copyright infringement, I'd say that means they don't have a case.
Patents are another angle, and I'm far from a patent lawyer. Have you ever read one? They are full of jargon and what seem to be nonsense words, especially a software patent for a video game. I found an article that describes how Nintendo can use a 'new' patent to attack PalWorld, but near the end he clearly calls out that there is a difference between 'legal' and 'legitimate.' I can't seem to find the actual 'throwing a ball to make a thing happen' new patent, but I'd assume PalWorld doesn't infringe the original patent, or Nintendo would have just used that one. The article author also notes how Nintendo applied for a divisional patent near the end of a window for doing so, which presumably extends the total lifetime of the patent protection. A new divisional patent last year probably means we have 40 years of no 'ball-throwing mechanics.'
I hope that this whole thing is a stunt. PalWorld was commercially successful, and even if they lose and have to modify the game, it will remain successful. I think that there's a possibility that the developer and publisher are fighting against software patents kind of in general and used PalWorld as bait that Nintendo fell for.
If they lose, then there will be a swath of gamers who are at least mildly outraged at software patents. Popular opinion can (occasionally) sway policy.
If they win, then we have another chink in the armor of software patents as a whole. See Google vs Oracle regarding the ability to patent an API.
If we can manage to kill software patents for gameplay mechanics, like throwing balls at things, being able to take off and land seamlessly, or having a recurring enemy taunt you, then we get better games that remix things that worked.
Imagine how terribly different games would be if someone had patented "A action where a user presses a button to swing their weapon, and if that weapon hits an enemy, that enemy takes damage."
Imagine how terribly different games would be if someone had patented “A action where a user presses a button to swing their weapon, and if that weapon hits an enemy, that enemy takes damage.”
I'm sure nintendo will have a patent for using a command for a menu to use an effect that buffs, heals, or harms. That way they can prove they are the ones who invented JRPGs too.
Adds to the ever growing list of copy-blight examples
Not how patents work but whatever, Nintendo has more money so they’re in the right
Legal battles aren't exactly cheap and they can drag on for years. Pocket Pair could end up bankrupt in the meantime from excessive legal costs, while Nintendo can keep that shit going for decades.
I wonder what their plan was -- step on the toes of the biggest franchise while operating in one of the many countries with broken copyright laws and then hope for the best while raking in early access money based on an idea that legally can't exist? Was it being naive and hoping they could just make a fun and successful game and Pokemon would be a merciful god?
Nintendo shouldn't be trying to own mechanics. if someone took their core idea and made it so good people who are Pokemon fans are buying it en masse then maybe they should take a hint and make a game that people want. but instead they're out there suing devs for "stealing" their idea of holding onto the feet of creatures with wings to glide? they're clearly unable to take down the game and decided to blindly keep stabbing away at random things trying to bankrupt them with trivial lawsuits. it's pathetic
Does your comment make sense as a response to my comment?
I'm confused why the devs stuck their head in the jaws of a sue happy monster. I ask, "But what was the point? What did they plan to happen?"
And you tell me Nintendo shouldn't own mechanics? Like... I know that. I am so used to people misunderstanding me, that I specifically go back and add a huge banner saying "I agree with you." I can call Nintendo assholes, call copyright broken, paint the devs as good but naive, and I still get "listen here, Nintendo is bad. Copyright is broken."
So, Nintendo can file patents after years of not filing them just to fuck with an Indie company after that company put out a product with game mechanics that "infringe said patents", but not to go after other large gaming companies like Microsoft that also infringe those same patents. Interesting take.
What the hell is wrong with you? Did I say Nintendo ought to be allowed to drive drunk? Or did I express confusion at why someone stepped in front of the speeding drunk? I'm fucking tired of "oh you defended him? What do you love him?" bullshit.
Sorry I didn't just shake my magic 8 ball and generate a pithy comment like you (probably) did. Here, I'll shake my ball and write what comes up.
Nintendo is fucking scum. I want a competitor to Pokemon. Copyright laws are broken. Lawyers! LAWYERS!!
Either you haven't read into what Nintendo is doing and kept up with what's been going on in the court case, (and perhaps meant to put a /s at the end of your first comment), or you're blaming Palworld for something Nintendo did because they are big mad that anyone would dare make a game even remotely similar to theirs. I don't care if you're defending Nintendo or not.
NINTENDO LITERALLY APPLIED FOR PATENTS FOR GAME MECHANICS used in Palworld after the game was already released to the public. They invented a reason to sue. They directly manufactured it. Your inability to communicate your thoughts on the matter is not my problem. Maybe stop raving for a minute and compose a reply that actually makes sense.
You're getting down votes from astroturfers, idiots, and kids who can't handle attacks on their precious favoritist little game, but you're right, palworld has zero leg to stand on here and they're lucky their company even still exists with the sheer scale of blatant theft going on. But DAE Nintendo bad hurr hurr?
Can you list out this sheer scale of theft that Nintendo is suing Pocketpair for.
Sure, it's located at https://letmegooglethat.com/...
Ah, so you can't? The scale of the theft is so big that you can't even list them out, is it?
We are talking about gliding on a mount…a very common game feature…
"On November 30th, 2024, we released Patch v0.3.11 for Palworld,” it said. “This patch removed the ability to summon Pals by throwing Pal Spheres and instead changed it to a static summon next to the player.
Well I am talking about the blatant plagiarism, which is what the devs for Palworld did.
Summoning creatures from an object is hardly "blatant plagiarism". Many, many, many games have the ability to summon creatures from an object. Pokemon was certainly not the first one to do it...
Summoning creatures from an object is hardly “blatant plagiarism”. Many, many, many games have the ability to summon creatures from an object. Pokemon was certainly not the first one to do it…
What will you argue if I bring up the fact that they ripped off countless Pokemon?
Oh wait.
I don't care because I am not here to argue with someone who doesn't understand what plagiarism is. Luckily the courts do, and ruled on the case. :)
Except it doesn't. Nintendo was only able to do this by exploiting Japanese-specific patent law since Palworld is made by a Japanese company. They had no case otherwise.
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This lawsuit is so stupid. In my opinion, patenting, copyrighting, or trademarking concepts or mechanics in video games shouldn't be allowed at all. The nemesis system in the Shadow of Mordor games was so cool, but we're never going to see anything like it again. Warner went through the trouble to copyright (or something idk I'm not a lawyer) that system, and then let the series die out.
I'm waiting to see the headlines that any other games with a shooty thing that goes bang is illegal, and the concept of shooting a gun in a video game is going to be owned by either Rockstar/Take Two or the collective mob of Call of Duty developers. If the world is gonna get that stupid, I got my fingers crossed that Bubsy 3D owns the rights to jumping
Edit: Thought about it for 10 more seconds and I have questions. Is it specifically gliding using a creature that Nintendo has a problem with, or is it creature-assisted traversal in general? Can they sue Skyrim since you can ride horses? Palworld made the change so that you need to build a glider to glide around. BOTW and TOTK used gliders. Is Nintendo gonna sue them for that now too? I fucking hate all of this so God damned much
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