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What's it like being a user hearing about developer drama.

a year ago by abbiistabbii to c/linuxmemes

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salacious_coaster 119 points a year ago

Me, a new Linux convert, watching all the infighting over minutiae:

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rtxn 90 points a year ago

"I love a good sitcom!"
"Oh, what's your favourite? Friends? Seinfeld? Fesh Pince?"
"None, it's wayland-protocols"

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Fedizen 38 points a year ago

A sitcom about linux developers who constantly argue about minutia could actually be fun if written correctly. They could borrow a bunch of real life incidents and write them in.

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rtxn 43 points a year ago

GNOME: "...and that's why I think client-side decorations are the greatest. What do you guys think?"

The camera zooms out to reveal all other desktop environments staring, stone-faced, at GNOME. After a moment, KDE speaks up:

"You really can't help putting your foot in your mouth."

Laugh track plays at 300% volume, followed by the Seinfeld outro.

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Tangent5280 11 points a year ago

Make the seinfeld outro deep fried, like that thomas the tank engine tune and you got yourself a deal buckaroo

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Rinox 4 points a year ago

Reminds me of the tabs vs spaces thing from silicon valley

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marcos 21 points a year ago

There's a Youtube channel that mostly just follows the wayland bug tracker.

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inbeesee 9 points a year ago

Please link?

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marcos 8 points a year ago

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rikudou 10 points a year ago

Be careful:

And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

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Agent641 1 point a year ago

It's almost humanlike

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rtxn 92 points a year ago

Linux users are peaceful* and level-headed*.

* barring discussions about Wayland, X11's obsolescence, Systemd, Pipewire, Rust in the kernel, or even UEFI at times

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Broadfern 31 points a year ago

Don’t forget arch btw

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rtxn 35 points a year ago

It's NixOS and CachyOS these days.

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rikudou 11 points a year ago

Do you even nix, bro? I have Nix on my company issued Windows laptop inside WSL, btw.

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axEl7fB5 5 points a year ago

Do you even NixOS bro? I have NixOS on my personal issued Thinkpad inside /, btw.

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jimerson 27 points a year ago

I tried to use Wayland. My windows flickered to black. I switched to X11. No issue. I'll try Wayland again next year. -casual Linux user

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rtxn 25 points a year ago

Narrator voice: "Six years later, they still haven't tried it again."

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rikudou 9 points a year ago

I try every year and every year I get a different result. Currently on Wayland, next year's update might force me back to X.

Love the Wayland stability.

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marcos 4 points a year ago

Slic3r doesn't work on it.

No idea of why. (But I suspect it's about the several monitors thing.) Will probably try again in a year or 5.

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rtxn 5 points a year ago

I don't know what kind of program it is, but if it works on X11, you could try forcing it to run inside Xwayland by unsetting the WAYLAND_DISPLAY variable. I've had to do this with Qt Creator because dockable windows didn't work at the time on Wayland.

env --unset=WAYLAND_DISPLAY DISPLAY=:0 /path/to/prog

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Damage 5 points a year ago

Slic3r? Original Slic3r? Why are you still using that?

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marcos 2 points a year ago

It takes longer to configure a newer slicer than to test if the old one works in wayland :)

When I need something more advanced, like customized supports, I'll migrate. Didn't happen yet.

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Piatro 2 points a year ago

Tried it on PopOS and wondered how anyone could use it at all. Installed fedora on a different machine and it's flawless. Probably just the age of PopOS at this point.

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DieserTypMatthias 11 points a year ago

UEFI is OK. Try mentioning Secure Boot.

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rtxn 15 points a year ago

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Jumuta 7 points a year ago

fuck the bios stage, just load grub from firmware

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DieserTypMatthias 3 points a year ago

UEFI is a standard. The implementation of it depends on the manufacturer.

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FlexibleToast 8 points a year ago

Do users care about Rust in the kernel? The others all make sense.

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rtxn 13 points a year ago

You bet. Not many, but they are extremely passionate emotional about it. They mostly grace the anti-intellectual cesspools with their presence (twitter and such).

I used to be like that, about two years ago, mainly because of some bad experiences with compiling Rust programs from source. Then I realized that I'm literally never going to be affected by it since I never compile the kernel myself. Now I'm learning Rust myself.

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FlexibleToast 9 points a year ago

If anything, the memory safe Rust should be encouraged...

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rtxn 11 points a year ago

It's not just about memory safety, honestly. Rust is a modern programming language. C is a fucking fossil buried in a tar pit of unmaintained libraries and workarounds. A newly minted programmer won't likely choose C as their primary language when things like C#, Python, and Rust are available (I work in a university, I see what our students do), and the current generation of C-only maintainers will eventually retire, with nobody to replace them. Being openly hostile and abusive against Rust will hurt the kernel in the long term.

This is the Dreadnought effect once again. A new thing appears that thoroughly changes the landscape, and the people who can't adapt push back with fear and violence. Crossbows and arbalests have been effective for centuries, who needs this ridiculous new "gun" thing?

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WhyJiffie 8 points a year ago

you forgot nvidia

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mEEGal 1 point a year ago

there's a debate about NVidia ?

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WhyJiffie 7 points a year ago

I think it's more of a consensus than a debate for those who had an nvidia card. a bunch of things don't work as they should, because nvidia drivers are bad.

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Reygle 46 points a year ago

It beats the alternative of Microsoft's support forums where thousands comment for weeks straight INCLUDING paid Indian "representatives" who ask for user diagnostic tool output, copy/pasting the same reply eleventeen thousand times a day, on a post from 8 years ago BUT not a single person has ever posted their solution EXCEPT "I reinstalled Windows."

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Jumuta 21 points a year ago

have you tried running sfc /scannow ?

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Pyroglyph 10 points a year ago

oh, it succeeded? uh, run dism /online anway, that should work

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rickywithanm 8 points a year ago

This was such a frustrating experience. I could probably count on one hand how many times I found a useful solution that wasn’t just copy paste

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TabbsTheBat 35 points a year ago

I love the drama :3.. gives me a great sense of schadenfreude. Unless the devs whose side im on are losing the debate

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Sidhean 6 points a year ago

Then it gives me a great sense of rage. Either way, dopamine

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Natanox 6 points a year ago

In a few decades we'll have Linux rainbow press delivering the newest (partially made-up) drama of Linux celebs and influencers to the senior Linux users sitting in their electric FOSS rocking chairs, talking about the good ol' days with X11, SysVinit and no god damn sandboxing or immutability.

And they'll feel ALIVE thanks to it.

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irelephant 34 points a year ago

What's great about the drama is you can just ignore it and everything still works.

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phantomwise 28 points a year ago

More like:

That why linux is great, it open-sources its drama so everyone can enjoy it

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Electricd 5 points a year ago

We ❀️ drama 🐧

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DonutsRMeh 24 points a year ago

This is the way. "I just use Linux" is what I always say.

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oppy1984 21 points a year ago

I'm considered tech support for my team at work, their always saying things like "well you're the Linux guy so you know how this stuff works". And then I have to explain "I just use Linux, I don't write the code, plus these are windows machines so it's completely different issues, and lastly I just type the problem into Google read the results and then tell you what I read"

Them: well you are still tech support because I don't know how to do that.

Me: wait you don't know how to type into Google.....no you know what fine, I'm tech support, tell management so I can get a raise.

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AFallingAnvil 11 points a year ago

Hi, former tech support (now cybersecurity) here. You /are/ tier one tech support. You handle it pretty much how they do, knowledge base documents and searching for solutions online. If things get really bad they might poke around directly and see if they can find a root cause before they escalate.

That doesn't mean they can demand you do anything, but it does mean you shouldn't underestimate yourself :)

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oppy1984 5 points a year ago

Hey thanks. I had always heard the joke that the majority of tech support was knowing how to phrase Google searches, but thought it was a joke....I get the sense it's more a funny fact.

Funny enough, I've done the poking around bit too, both in person and more commonly now remotely. And yeah nobody has demanded anything.... so far, lol. If I'm busy, or just have no clue what they're talking about, I just say that to them and tell them to call our outsourced help desk. So far everyone just drops their head and accepts my answer then makes the call and spends the next 2 to 3 hours deciding if they really need this job.

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sik0fewl 1 point a year ago

What, with all those non-Linux users asking questions and all.

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Zink 22 points a year ago

The thing is, one of the big root causes behind those fights is also a root cause of what makes Linux and FOSS so great: The devs care about the software and its users. Their priority is making the right decision for the application and its users. That's a pretty stark contrast to certain other mainstream operating systems where the primary stakeholders are not the devs or the users -- it's some third party a thousand miles away who only cares whether the dev teams' decisions sprinkle a few more dollar bills on top of their cash mountain.

I'm not part of those fights and defending them, btw. I just use Mint and appreciate their efforts!

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Hotzilla 21 points a year ago

Fighting means that you care.

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FooBarrington 15 points a year ago

Me following the recent bcachefs drama

(Kent is objectively in the wrong & slightly bat shit, if you follow his many discussions in various forums where he defends himself)

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pupbiru 2 points a year ago

which is so upsetting because dear FUCK does FOSS need a modern FS

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monogram 8 points a year ago

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waldfee 3 points a year ago

it seems to have the reputation of not being the most reliable FS out there, apparently even causing data loss in some instances. In my experience tho it's been great, it's snapshot feature has saved me whenever a new kernel would break my broadcom wifi chip

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monogram 3 points a year ago

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juipeltje 2 points a year ago

Better yet, what's wrong with ext4 lol

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monogram 1 point a year ago

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FooBarrington 3 points a year ago

It does, but it doesn't look like Kent will get his shit together. He cannot accept that he might be in the wrong.

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whimsy 14 points a year ago

I think it's mostly the other way around. The developers are chill while the user base frothing with tribalism

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DickFiasco 16 points a year ago

I think the tribalism is mostly in jest. I've never actually seen two Linux users seriously fighting over their preferred distro or init system or whatever.

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lordnikon 5 points a year ago

Agreed also most of that i think comes from people thinking X is my preference but it comes out X is the best period with the "for me" being implied but not heard by the other party.

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OsrsNeedsF2P 3 points a year ago

Distro? No. Wayland? Yes..

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rtxn 13 points a year ago

It's both.

Christoph Hellwig, a kernel contributor, and a bunch of anti-Rust fossils, were sabotaging Rust-for-Linux projects for using their C APIs for months until Torvalds intervened, and have been actively hostile and abusive against R4L contributors until they left the project. Summary by Aussie Linux Man.

XLibre, headed by a... shall we say, interesting figure, has attracted a rabid fanbase who are frothing at the mouth and calling Wayland woke DEI garbage that will destroy Linux. The first day of the git repo saw threats of gun violence, the antisemitic (((triple parenthesis))) dog whistle, openly transphobic statements by non-developers, and the owner's commitment to allow all of that under the banner of being "non-political". More context here, in the comments.

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drath 2 points a year ago

XLibre, headed by a... shall we say,Β interestingΒ figure

Still better than IBM/Redhat, tbh

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some_guy 11 points a year ago

I dunno. As a supporter of Asahi from the week the Patreon was launched, I’m pretty bummed that the lead dev got disheartened and dropped off. Kernel devs protecting fiefdoms (by blocking Rust adoption) do not a happy user make (for me).

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alsaaas 11 points a year ago

I love it when old crusty maintainers obstruct the progress of memory safe (read: Rust) code in the Linux Kernel!!!

Then venting your frustrations about that on Mastodon gets you labeled a brigading "maybe you are the problem" by Linus ((:

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x00z 8 points a year ago

I'm sure there's drama within any sort of closed source software company too. Although most of that drama will instead be project managers (the evil of this world) forcing their bullshit into the face of developers, until those developers burn out and start a potato farm.

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Vanilla_PuddinFudge 8 points a year ago

"Ah yes, I survived the great systemd/init war..."

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nialv7 8 points a year ago

Ok what is it this time? What did I miss

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ikidd 6 points a year ago

You've made an enemy for life!

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 1 point a year ago

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sol6_vi 6 points a year ago

It's like going to a restaurant for a particular atmosphere. Just another Tuesday here. Eat your meal and move along.

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robdor 4 points a year ago

I've been liking mint coming over as a long time windows user.

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pewgar_seemsimandroid 4 points a year ago

what do you mean stability? i want hyprcursor on my Linux mint! :(

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sirico 3 points a year ago

This is the other way around

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SloganLessons 3 points a year ago

More like the reverse in my experience. Users fight each over the most petty things

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AppleStrudel 1 point a year ago

Leave me alone. I have enough drama from my job already, I don't need more outside work hours.

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cypherpunks 1 point a year ago

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