BMW Commits to Subscriptions Even After Heated Seat Debacle
5 months ago by schizoidman to c/world
cross-posted from : https://lemmy.zip/post/58557789
No, it’s because the peasants don’t need to know where I am going.
The assumption is that every peasant on the road will stop, move out if their way and politely greet them because of the higher BMW status. Just as they in turn have to defer to a Bentley or Rolls Royce. The hierarchy of cars.
It's funny, because a boy I used to work with in a major UK city centre with lots of traffic congestion used to say "go for the gap in front of the ones with a nice car, they'll stop".
In the same vein, never let them out of a junction out of politeness. They have enough privilege in their life, they can wait.
Banged up Corsa? Out you come, you've places to go.
Boring Ford Mondeo? Sure, I'll be nice.
Land Rover Evoque Sport? Get fucked, I've got right of way.
Well, RR is now BMW, so that tracks. Bentley’s are just an overpriced VW, so just another peasant.
We have those too, but they mostly stay in one part of the city. And there are some race freaks. But mostly BMW is a very common company car.
You joke but I actually had a co-worker once tell me that “I’m an adult, I don’t need to tell others where I am going.”
It lowers the upfront cost which is what millions of financially illiterate people think of first. $299 biweekly for 96 months! That’s $20 cheaper than XYZ
Never you mind how much extra it costs for radio or heated seats or the horsepower on the sticker.
It won't work for so many millions when Chinese cars are skyrocketing, competing on price with them is crazy. Combustion engines require advanced engineering, but electric ones are absolutely basic, we must look for another element that differentiates these brands, I would pay more for good open source and auditable privacy software that I know is not going to leave me stranded at the first opportunity.
The problem is that not enough people care about privacy, but it’s a valid approach. Just need to market it.
One of the challenges I think are the things you can’t notice until you live with a car. How much space does the seat heater actually heat? My old BMW heated quite far up the backrest while Japanese and Korean cars barely warm the lumbar area (and cycle on/off leaving you hot/cold respectively).
How good is the traction control? I have driven GM products shipped on this side of 2020 that only do torque limiting and the abs doesn’t seem to do pay any attention to the rear wheels. The system is very similar to 1980s functionality. Compared to a 2000s smart car, it’s downright dangerous.
Does the HVAC work? I’ve had a Subaru (2014) that couldn’t heat or couldn’t cool the car, without having the fans on above normal speaking level (in fact it couldn’t cool the car at 25°C without recirculate on); my BMW on the other hand moderated heat output, heated seats, and heated mirrors based on the outdoor temperature; it was exceedingly comfortable. I never needed to adjust the climate controls.
The cheaper cars have the “features” but the implementation is crappy. It costs money to finesse.
The problem is that most people (as with privacy) don’t notice this. They may note the absence of the small luxuries if they change cars, but it’s difficult to market it, difficult to convince people to spend more on it, and difficult to include in press reviews without being a huge nerd.
If it's already built into the car the car won't be any less expensive just because the features is locked behind a subscription.
Even if you don't buy the subscription, you already payed for the feature since they already built it into your car. They didn't do that for free and hope that you pay for it later.
They didn't do that for free and hope that you pay for it later.
That is, in fact, the business model.
Cars already are wired for many features or have software gates on them. For decades now, they’ll run the wire for a rain sensor but not include the sensor, because it’s more expensive to have two parts for the harness than to not hook it up. Or they’ll include the full hardware requirements for GPS but it’s gated in software. You can go to the dealer, pay $1000 and get navigation turned on.
It's a lot cheaper for OEMs to just manufacture one SKU (a car with all the hardware) than to have a bunch of different options. Now, wether or not they pass those savings to the consumer, I have my doubts
Totally depends on the part
Insane economics.
fuck the subscription model. I want to own my shit!
I went with a different brand too. One that just gave all those options as part of the basic package.
Just checking that you are aware that Volvo is basically Chinese now a days.
Your statement is misleading.
From Google.
"Yes, some Volvos are made in China*, as Volvo operates several manufacturing plants there (Chengdu, Daqing, Taizhou) to serve the Chinese and Asian markets, though models for the US and Europe often come from Sweden, Belgium, or the U.S., with some Chinese-made Volvos even exported globally, but recent US-bound models tend to be produced in Europe or the US. The Chinese-owned Geely group owns Volvo, and production locations vary by model, with Chinese plants focusing on specific models like the S90 and XC60 for Asia, while Swedish and Belgian plants produce for Western markets."
I'm not in these markets nor am I looking at either of these models made in China.
Every upgrade in John Deere equipment of the same model is installed on every unit sold, just unplugged, because it’s cheaper to have the same build process.
School bus transmissions have been like this for over 25 years. They're all built with 6 gears but if you only want 5 gears (which is ironically is all most school districts actually want) they just disable 6th gear. It used to be that there was a little bit of missing hardware (which could be added later for a considerable price) but now it's just disabled in software. In the skoolie community (people like me who buy used buses and convert them to motorhomes) you can get your software-disabled transmission upgraded to a six-speed for a few hundred bucks (dubious legality but who gives a fuck).
yo fuck john deere pass it on
pass it on
(100 iterations later)
"Yo, John fucks deer, pass it on!"
Of course they will. BMW drivers aren't buying them because they're actually good cars.
Drove BMW my whole life and the brand no longer makes cars for people who like driving. Hard to imagine this is the company that made the e46 m3.
Coming up to 10 years of ownership on my 335i and it will be my final BMW. They literally don't even make a car that is more fun than my clapped out 335. Pathetic. It's all touch screens and electronic steering and shit that car enthusiasts despise.
Porsche is the only company still making good cars. Unfortunately that is also reflected in their prices.
Fair point yeah. Miata feels fast because you can actually drive it in its power band without getting in trouble. Sick car.
I think just based on personal preference I would rather go for a 128i than a miata. They are such good value and surprisingly cheap to run.
Have a 2012 128i. Picked the 128 instead of the 135 because I can actually have a bit of fun. I had a 335i before and that kind of acceleration is just completely unnecessary and your fun is over too fast.
I've thought about selling for one but I just have a lot of sentimental value with my 335i I guess. I have an xdrive car and I just did the oil pan gasket and put a catless downpipe when I was in there. Like 30 hour job...might as well drive it now lol.
I feel the same. I will use my 2022 320i touring until it turns to dust. By then, I hope I’ll be able to afford a porsche that can fit my dog’s cage in the trunk.
I’m definitely not buying any of the newer models with giant touchscreens instead of buttons.
I love my Cayman S!
The biggest risk from what I've read is bore scoring, which can end up fairly serious. If that doesn't happen, it seems most issues are minor.
Mine just passed 100k, bought it in 2023 at 70k. Enjoying every minute I spend behind that wheel!
My friend’s dad has an m235, maybe 4-5 years old now? You can’t hear the exhaust without the windows down and it’s got fake gurgles anyway, the shift throw is a mile long, and the clutch feels fucking awful. It’s fast but you can’t really feel it, not to the degree you would expect to anyway.
Meanwhile my 2015 BRZ shifter, especially with a heavier shift knob, feels awesome. Pulled the “assist” spring off the clutch pedal and now it’s perfectly linear. Maybe you could do the same to the BMW but it wouldn’t fix the throw length. The car’s not fast, but it’s not slow and at least I can feel and hear it.
If you want a good car, buy a Subaru. The BRZs are incredible and the WRX, even the new ones though I do have criticisms, are pretty slick.
Clutch felt like shit in my 2011 335i too. You need to delete the clutch delay valve ever since the e90 series, it's intended for idiots to prevent burning the clutch but all it does is numb the whole thing. $20 quick fix
Dont like wrx's?
Recently got to drive a more modern model (automatic/huge displays/…)
The driving was ok. Not my type of car but I guess that’s a matter of taste.
But the displays, what a distraction field for the eyes. I can’t imagine sitting in front of that every day.
And finally most importantly imo, the sound. Wtf BMW? You call that a sound system? Hollow, thin,… I mean it gets the job done but I’d expect more from a brand that has such reputation (Probably a setting somewhere? But still)
I'd like to sit here and say well now I'm never going to buy a bmw, but I don't think that was ever going to be a choice on my part anyway.
BMWs are great cars - as long as you buy ones that are at least 25 years old.
Most reliable BMW you can get is one of the later year n52 cars. 2011 or so 328i is going to run forever, just a couple of oil gaskets that need changed every few years. If I was in the market for a $5000 car right now it would be my pick
Perhaps paradoxically, this might have turned out to be an advantage rather than a drawback
Most BMW drivers lease vehicles so they're already used to what amounts to subscription. My fear is that these news articles are actually designed to normalize this to buyers of brands where leasing isn't the default. They show how the affluent don't mind paying to convince the less fortunate it's a glamorous move.
Hell, based on recent approaches, these articles might primarily to help train LLMs to talk "the right way" about this stuff.
And i will never commit to BMW.
It sounds like their market research told them they would make more money this way, and my own anecdotal evidence makes me think they are correct, unfortunately.
The area where I live has some diversity and some decent people, but it is majority white christian conservative. The amount of luxury SUVs I see rage-driving around town can be astounding at times. It's right up there with the amount of frighteningly expensive emotional support trucks with the drivers still wearing their ball caps and wrap-around shades on overcast days.
That is a hill to die on. I wish you the luck that is deserved.
- to bmw, not oc
Pretty much. What next, complaining that there's a new Yacht tax?
I guess my previous BMW will be my last one.
They know their customers make unwise decisions. They got a bmw in the first place.
BMW buyers are rubes, so it all make sense.
This is a terrible article. It didn't give a single example. It also said there is subscriptions for things that need a constant connection. The connected drive stuff currently are things anyone can do without. This is very rage baity.
Charging someone to use something they already own is extortion.
You're gonna love how IBM manages hardware upgrades to your equipment by unlocking cores already in your gear. It's done that for decades.
Bourgeoisie Meat Wagon
Shifting toward a subscription model at this stage in the game just screams “we are having money trouble.”
Which is ironic considering the image BMW has.
Completely off topic, but I couldn't help noticing that that is the ugliest car interior I have ever seen. From the wonky cornerless screen to I don't know what's going on with that steering wheel and the horrendously stripy all over the place centre console.
BMW isn't part of Volkswagen Group
I also misread this the first time. It’s not about Seat the company but seat heaters.
So how does the car know if your subscription is valid?
Is it going to be like Microsoft when every so often your subscription is a deactivated until you can validate it again?
So your car will need to have constant connectivity to wifi or at least reconnect each day/week/month to confirm the subscriptions are still active?
Nah, they have a cellular data connection.
It pays for itself, because the car manufacturer can sell the driving data to insurance companies.
And now it's used to make sure your brakes subscription is up to date
For now, BMW is defaulting to a more traditional approach. If it requires a data package of some sort, it will probably have a recurring fee—and BMW says its customers are already comfortable subscribing to such add-ons.
Sounds like a fairly reasonable position imo, and that they listen to the outrage about heated seats (which tbh was ridiculous). I get the feeling that everyone who commented on this didn't actually read the article, lol.
Full disclosure: I own a fairly recent BMW and do like it a lot. Would I have bought it with subscription based heated seats? Maybe not, but I do appreciate other things like having a physical button to go into battery save mode and not having to dive 3 touch screen menus down.. or that it's one of the most powerful hybrids in electric only mode (though not anymore I think).. or being generally more dialed back when it comes to driver assist features.
That said I will admit that it has a physical button that tells me to pay up when pressed, to enable automatic high beam control.. though it's not like it was an advertised feature (got it used).
The thing is- most cars have ongoing costs if you use anything data wise. I don't get the selective outrage here.
Agreeing with you.
I'm not totally against a subscription for features, as long as they provide the ability to purchase it outright and it stays on permanantly throughout the life of the car.
No.
absolutely not.
you already paid for the hardware. it already has the firmware installed. All that they're doing is flipping a software switch that tells the system to let the firmware/hardware be functional.
it being a one-time payment isn't the problem. The problem is that you already paid for the heated seats or whatever else. I shouldn't have to pay to have features that are already in the car.
I have to partially disagree on this point. Take the first generation of Raspberry Pi as an example.
The first Raspberry Pis came with hardware to decode certain video codecs, but this feature was protected by royalties (not by the Raspberry Pi foundation, but a third-party I don't remember the name of). They decided to sell you the base hardware for cheap, and if you wanted to enable hardware decoding you could later purchase a license key for your specific device, which could then be used to flip a switch in the firmware.
In my opinion it makes sense: I would rather pay 35€ + optionally 5€ for that feature, rather than 40€ mandatory.
So, like. Proprietary codecs are also pretty disgusting.
But what you’re not being told- I assume this didn’t occur to you rather than you’re being dishonest- is that you didn’t necessarily need those keys- the chip wasn’t a dedicated decoder chip- it was the GPU.
And you have no idea how much I despised Broadcom for pulling that shit. (And I’m not alone. Most of us pirated the keys out of sheer irritation.)
I just shared my opinion. I didn't need those keys because I was not interested in using their proprietary codecs.
For what it matters, if Broadcom decided to license the IP for some hardware accelerator I don't have anything against it. As long as they don't make me pay for it when I don't need it.
Dedicating a small portion of the silicon to optional features is cheaper than designing two separate silicons one with and one without such features.
This was actually probably an efuse, so not really just firmware, but hardware. In any case we are not talking about a software/firmware feature to decode videos, we are talking a section in the silicon that stays dormant unless you activate it with a valid license key.
Imho it makes sense from an economical perspective: they develop, test and fabricate a single silicon that does everything, then they allow you to specialize it on demand for a fee.
In any case, we can agree to disagree.
Manufacturer are going SDV, whether we like it out not. Software defined vehicle. They're a computing platform on wheels.
Like a computer or a smartphone, buying the hardware does not grant you access to all software ever made for that plateform.
Hopefully one day we'll see some computing hardware standardization across brands and openness for third party apps and subscriptions.
The current status of being at the mercy of a single vendor is terrible. Given standardized and similar computing hardware and APIs, I'd like to try Mercedes or Cadillac or Tesla's FSD one month each and see which one I prefer and can afford.
Heated seats, for example, are not “software”.
It’s some form of heating element. You flip a switch and it runs electricity through some fairly resistive wires (iirc it’s carbon fiber; maybe NiChrome)
The most firmware you see is some kind of thermal monitoring to keep from getting too hot. It’s not a complicated system.
All this is, is a whole bunch of claptrap to sell you fully functional car, but charge you to unlock that functionality. You wouldn’t buy a house and then buy keys to use every room in the house.
You can call it what you want. I call it extortion. It should be illegal, and it’s certainly scummy.
Technically they haven't paid for the feature yet, it just so happens that it's cheaper to manufacture without having a second line of non-heated seats which makes me think "why not just include heated seats (and enabled) as standard?"
Edit: Why am I being downvoted? I'm only pointing out that if BMW wanted to have a heated/non-heated seat options it costs more to set up and operate a separate manufacturing line to support both options. That's just a fact of running production lines.
Furthermore I'm questioning their business logic here with going with the subscription model because, as shown in the thread here, it only generates negative press, so why even bother with the subscription model and just have heated seats as standard. No subscription model for hardware BS needed, it makes the brand look more luxurious, and it'd be a great selling point in the dealerships to say "all these bad bois come with heated seats as standard".
They can just adjust the baseline cost to include the heated seats if they need to preserve that margin.
In factual reality, you own every bit of hardware the thing comes with and every capability of it. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a goddamn liar and a thief!
End. Of.
Edit: I downvoted you because of the "technically they haven’t paid for the feature yet" part, not the "it’s cheaper to manufacture without having a second line" part. Make no mistake: everyone who buys the vehicle pays for the feature. Some are getting swindled into paying for it twice.
It's built into the fucking car. You already paid them the money it cost to put there. Why would you think giving them more money just so they can flip a switch allowing you access to the hardware you already paid for is a good idea, or even remotely acceptable?
I'd guarantee that they're already doing that now anyway. If you buy a new car but don't choose the heated seats optional extra, the seats will still have the capability, just that they won't enable it. This has been going on for decades; I recall an old Peugot 405 my parents had when I was young, there were various placeholder areas on the console where some switches would have bee on the more expensive models. All the wiring would be there, but just no phsyical switch on the console. They'll standardise as much as possible to make the production process as simple and cheap as possible.
I can see the appeal from a potential customers point of view as you don't need to stress about picking the wrong options and later regretting it.
A place to put a switch and wiring harness having a couple extra wires doesn't mean they put the parts in to make it functional. A standardized console and wiring harness is logical because it's cheaper, installing heated seats or 4x4 drive tran is not. The vehicle usually doesn't get part for the options installed until it's ordered so it doesn't make sense to make a unique part or wire harness for a small percentage of vehicles. The subscription based model just proves how effective and profitable it is, just a portion of car owners paying for it will make them enough money to justify putting it in every vehicle.
Heated seats probably costs them around a few hundred dollars a seat and if you pay a subscription for the life of the car then they will make tens of thousands back.
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is that why they never use turn signals? you need a subscription?
save