Discord delays global age verification rollout after backlash - Dexerto
8 months ago by ItWasntMe to c/technology
Let's hope this gives competitors more time to get things setup well.
The thing that's insane to me is that most of the alternatives have screen sharing with working audio on the back burner, while I can tell you that the first one to get it working will be my go to. Hopefully with this extra cushion, one of them can get it working it's the only thing discord has over its competitors other than general stability related things.
This is my take. Fluxer and Root are the top two for my group, but they need more time in the oven(hell, everything does).
So far I've uninstalled discord on my devices and I'm using it via the web browser only in a container tab, until my group switches over to something else.
Can't fucking wait to delete my account.
Matrix seems pretty mature, and has screen sharing with audio?
Same thing happened in 2021-ish when WhatsApp changed their policy that all your information would be shared with Facebook. Outrage pushed it back six months, and then they did it anyway.
I cancelled my nitro when it was announced they were doing this shady crap and it's staying cancelled until there is credible assurances they won't be handing over personal data to the like so palantir and other related goons.
Short of regular 3rd party audits, there's nothing they can do that would assure they're handling your data with privacy and care. And even that's a stretch.
The only way you should trust them, or anyone else, is if they don't collect your personal data at all. There is absolutely no way I'd trust any website or service with information like what they want. All of these laws are explicitly designed to create a digital profile of every person so they can track what you do. It can't be done ethically because it isn't supposed to be done ethically.
Just like WhatsApp did when they introduced the TOS change for WhatsApp for Business
Nice, I been struggling getting group chats working in Matrix. I don't have to rush now.
I'd recommend creating a private room and inviting people to it instead. You can optionally enable encryption as well, but keep in mind it has perfect forward secrecy, so people won't be able to view messages from before they joined.
Was trying to get voice group chats. I'm getting my ass kicked and my set up hasn't worked yet and keeps getting bigger with parts I'm not sure I need or work.
So this, but Discord.
Gajim is one. Dino is another (I think). You just need to make sure the client has Jingle compatability (xmpp plugin) for streaming video. A lot let you connect to multiple.xmpp servers
Movim. Though due to how recent it was implemented, you must use a chromium based browser to stream the application's audio too.
Matrix, can easily do the above.
Except audio on the screen share, it is my biggest issue with matrix currently.
Why? It works flawlessly for me. Are you self hosting? Are you on Wayland?
I've been using Matrix for about a decade. Federated, encrypted chats and rooms (optional), supports video, self hostable, fully open source.
I have too. It's... Really not ready for primetime, based on present-day experiences watching rooms lurch into view (and I don't even think it's possible to search for them on Android). Has video at least gotten better?
I setup a Haven (Github) self-hosted instance and am slowly dragging friends over as the dev pumps out features. All the important stuff is already available, still more on the way. Also has things like E2E, which I don't care about for my community/server, but it is nice to have.
How the heck have I not heard of this one yet? It already looks promising - I see video, chat, channel organization...
It's one main dev, another doing android, and supporters (I myself have been firing off ideas, suggestions, and issue tickets, and trying to help other users). An electron desktop program is in the works too.
I'd argue its completely relevant as they are trying to save face here. Anyone who has somehow made it to 2026 without a hostile relationship to corporations (most red and blue team in America) will probably take this as a sign to come back for now.
Agreed; Discord is trying to lull people into a false sense of security as a means of convincing them to stay, in the same manner that Reddit gave limited API access to apps like RedReader to stem the tide of users leaving for platforms like Lemmy.
Beyond age verification, if Discord is scanning a user's messaging history to determine what their age is, one can only imagine all the other data valuable to data brokers that they are extracting from it too.
Absolutely
Even if it was "cancel" that would just be a slightly longer delay.
Alright, stoat or revolt or anyone else, you've got 6 months. I'll move my group over in 6 months and donate to the best solution. Thanks everyone for pushing back against discord, to the indie devs who are working on alternatives, and to the self-hosting community for making it possible for me to even plan to move off of discord.
And why not to give Matrix a chance? Stoat (named Revolt before), Fluxer or anything else that is centralised is going to end up doing the same.
Fluxer isn't entirely centralized. It has self hosting support.
It's quasi centralized pretty much the same as matrix.
You can just opt to not use the central server for hosting services.
What?
I don't think you know what centralization/decentralization means.
On matrix, you scan spin up a server/instance and communicate with any other matrix server/instance. On Fluxer, if you self-host, and your friend also self-hosts, your instance/server cannot communicate with your friend's instance/server. You would have to create an account on your friend's instance/server and vice-versa. You would also, probably, have to be running two clients in order to chat in both servers/instances.
Federation of self-hosted servers is on the Fluxer road map.
However, the team has had massive growth in the last two weeks and pulled enough visibility that assholes being assholes decided that it would be fun to DDoS them while also dealing with sudden growth.
Fluxer's majn benefits are that it is so close to discord that it, in theory, supports existing Discord bots with minimal effort, and the kid behind it is obsessed with the tech stack and FOSS.
Because the user experience of Matrix is poor and not currently a sufficient Discord replacement.
Because from what I can tell Matrix isn't a good Discord replacement. I'll spin up a server just to trial it, but every person I've talked to who isn't already on Matrix and every thing I've seen or read says it's not a discord replacement, it's just a chat app.
Stoat and Fluxer can be self-hosted which is my main desire. Something fully under my control, with my data security, that won't rely on another service to keep it running (although naturally I rely on the code base being maintained, hence donating as if it was a paid product).
You can self-host Matrix without federating, but itβs the best part about it. There is still work to be done about video calls, screen sharing and such in different Matrix clients but it is being work on. Try for example CommetChat as itβs the closest to Discord.
Yeah that's what I'm thinking too, stoat, fluxer, whatever, don't care which, but 6 months now that there is momentum gives me hope they can smooth out the UX
This is fantastic news! Not because I actually give a shit about sticking with Discord after getting slapped in the face with this insulting age verification nonsense, but because Discord has basically no competition and 6 months will be plenty of time for a real contender to emerge in time for them to shoot themselves in the foot again.
I don't think Discord actually appreciates how much market share is going to slip away from them in the next 6 months. They were probably better off going through with their clandestine spying plan now while some people might be complacent enough to just comply and provide their ID to get handed over to the fucking Feds.
I just signed up with Fluxer last night and chat with one of my old Discord friends. Fluxer is still very much in beta and under development, but seems to be a pretty promising open source clone of Discord.
Oh man, when they get native mobile apps, I'm looking to switch my Mattermost server to Fluxer. I've had good luck with Mattermost, but its not truly OSS and its been moving features over to paid enterprise accounts so the time is soon.
You don't need a native mobile app to use the Progressive Web App (PWA) installation.
As much as I like a lot of the discord alternatives out there I fear they will all eventually face the same fate. Decentralised or someone wrapping the signal protocol into a discord like client is probably the only way to avoid this again.
Fluxer plans federation in the future, and its AGPL licensed.
However, it's still in beta, and the backend's ability to scale is currently unproven.
For something that's more proven, we have Movim, which is already federated with the open standard XMPP protocol.
So when all your friends want to screenshare on somewhere else, they install Movim and then sign up on...
And then when they jump into chats, will they be able to search the room history and post memes (images)?
Yep :D
It has full searchable room history, can upload memes (gifs from either links like giphy or directly uploaded), images, video files (playable within the chat), and audio messages.
There's also a built in paint-like thing that lets you draw directly into the chat, or annotate documents, pictures, or memes.
I'm still hopeful about https://veilid.com/ but I suspect that's a long way out; the protocol is still in development stages, let alone implementations of it.
Check DNS logs. Discord is proprietary undocumented garbage that connects to dozens of raw IP addresses that have no documentation, rhyme, or reasoning. You have no clue what or who is connected in that mess of garbage, or why they are there.
It is about like, I'm going to give you access to a phone, a special phone, it just works.
It is a prison phone. You are in prison when you use it... technically. But you don't really "see" the "place". The other inmates are all around you. They see you, but you don't see them. Never mind that though, the phone just works. Lots of people love that phone. Nobody asks questions. Just use the phone and pay no attention to all the rest. It will be fine.
Business model? Viability? Never mind all of that. Don't ask questions like that. The numbers do not add up in the slightest. That is the magic of prisons. Justice costs a lot, but it is worth it right. Magic phone is easy. Ask no questions. Expect no answers. Totally normal, everyone is doing it.
The whole thing is a mass of clueless zombie morons that ask no questions and have no idea who what or why they are connected to with all those raw IP addresses. They all give trust blindly without accountability or understanding.
Yep. Its wasnβt even a question
That's just gives Fluxer more time to prepare for the switch π
That's what my community is doing. We're going to move to Matrix just to be rid of Discord and then seeing what we want to do next.
Matrix seems to be filling the role of discord for me. Iβve noticed elementβs client is lighter on system resources then discord
As much I agree with the idea of abandoning Discord - honestly, fuck 'em - I just don't know how I or many other people could practically make the full switch... While I might be able to convince a few of my close friends to go with me to whatever new platform comes about, there's just no way any larger communities would be able to uproot and leave without losing 90%+ of their members, and that's only if the owners of those communities are even willing to leave in the first place. Inertia is a powerful thing, and the reality of the situation is that the vast majority of Discord users will not be convinced to leave over this.
I want to defend my privacy, and I want to tell these corporate ghouls to shove it, but at the same time, I don't want to become a digital hermit. Having to decide between protecting my privacy and cutting myself off from so many valued social connections and communities feels like an impossible choice.
I know I'm not saying anything particularly new or actionable here, I'm just... tired. I'm tired of having to flee from platform after platform into increasingly smaller and more insular corners of the internet to escape the endless cycle of enshittification. I'm tired of what the internet has become, where the only places left where you can exist without being manipulated and exploited by corporate interests are a handful of small, decentralized platforms that are becoming increasingly cut off from the internet at large. I'm just tired of this shit, man.
On this note, I lost contact with a huge number of friends when I deleted my facebook ~15 years ago. Similar for livejournal. I handed out my email address and phone number before I walked away, but people have not used those to contact me at all.
I think people don't want to put any effort into socialisation. Getting a "feed" is so easy, it feels like you're connecting with people. You see the comments and likes. But everyone is lonely because they're not actively interacting, just passively consuming.
"I handed out my email address and phone number before I walked away, but people have not used those to contact me at all."
Man, do I feel this.
I experienced the exact same thing when I left Facebook. Exactly 3 people I knew from FB bother to keep in touch. I had one friend tell me. Who will bother when I leave Discord?
I truly despise what big tech/social media has turned us into: convenience junkies.
I feel like this article was written for you, based on your last paragraph (the author definitely relates).
Thanks, this article was great. I guess I'll finally check out XMPP, cause Matrix was... really mid when I tried it a few months ago and put me off. SimpleX was a mess too.
Side note, I get that the movim UI/Client is web only, but does that mean I can't access Conversations.im (I know the app/client itself is Android only) on movim? I feel a little ashamed that I can't understand this...
I feel a little ashamed that I canβt understand thisβ¦
Nothin' to be ashamed of, we're all newbies to this at first. I had to learn it too :p
Part 1: How XMPP servers differ from XMPP Clients
Okay, so: Movim and Conversations are both clients that can be used to login to any XMPP account. Those two clients in particular are a little bit more confusing than normal, because they also offer free XMPP accounts on their own XMPP servers (which are independent of the client software).
To try to liken it to something familiar, it'd be like if the Thunderbird email client (which you can login to any email account with) also happened to offer a separate email hosting service too, so you could login to your SomeReallyCoolUsername@thunderbird[.]com from the Thunderbird app.
Or to liken it to how lemmy works, if you're familiar with the Photon front-end, it can access any lemmy account, even your blahaj account, as it's just an independent front-end, it's not actually hosting the lemmy server itself.
Part 2: How it works in practice
So in practice, if you create an XMPP account on Movim's server, you can login into that same account right from your Conversations App too. The same would apply if you'd created an XMPP account on the Conversations server; you could login to it right from the Movim client.
One client can also communicate with any other. Let's say you had a friend using the Conversations client, and you were on the Movim client; you could talk to each other no problem through text, or even call each other 1 on 1 with audio or video.
Part 3: The complication :(
But, bit of extra complication; the Conversations client hasn't yet implemented some of the features Movim is capable of. Specifically, it cannot yet do group audio/video calls or screenshare. So if you're in a chat room with your friends, and everyone is on Movim except for one friend (who's using the conversations client on their phone), if you started a group call, that one friend won't be able to join it.
However ('But' part 2); that limitation would only crop up if someone is using the Conversations client/mobile app itself.
If that same friend happened to have a Conversations XMPP account, they could still open Movim in a browser tab on their PC or phone and login to the Movim client with their Conversations account, and then would be able to join the call no problem.
And that's it! :D
Sorry if I didn't do the best job explaining that. I'm very much looking forward to the day when Conversations gets those missing features and I only need to explain the first part about how clients and XMPP accounts are separate π
Thank you for the wonderful response! I figured it was kinda like Fediverse, but I was lost if the difference in features caused issues with where your account was made. I made an account on conversations.im and now use Movim on browser and Conversations (from F-droid) on my phone. I need to start finding communities!
If they come, someone will build it
Delay all you want bitch i'm already gone.
We still have to leave discord. But another months to to discard Discord will help. Remember don't use anything that you can't self hose, corporations are completely untrustworthy
Delaysβ¦
As if backlash matters to them. There's 200+ million active daily users. They're betting on the majority not giving a fuck, and they are right.
I try and try again to convince my friends to leave discord, but they don't care. Not sure what it will take for them to change.
Seriously, I already deleted my discord account once before, because their terms of service already were claiming that all private messages and channel messages are being collected and sold to advertisers and data collection groups. I only joined back because I missed my friends. But now?? I could give a fuck, I already spun up Sharkord, and it runs well. In 6 months time, it will likely be good enough to completely ditch discord, so fuck it. My privacy matters more than friends who don't use their damn brains.
They don't even need the majority to not give a fuck. Just the idiots that pay for nitro
Are your friends going to share their documents with Discord?
A bigger problem than a technical alternative is convincing all of your friends to switch.
There are multiple other programs that fill a similar niche, but I don't know I'll be able to get everyone I know to change over.
I definitely will discontinue using Discord if they deploy this surveillance state bullshit, but a little bit sad over the number of gaming buddies I'll lose contact with in the process.
If they choose not to switch, then that's on them. Eventually enough people will start migrating that stragglers will also start to follow.
It will take a while for a full on replacement to be viable. People need move to this kind of stuff with friends and small groups for now. As time goes on, the infrastructure and community momentum will build out and make moving feasible for larger groups, though. That's to say, if you've got a massive Discord server with 10 thousand people, 100 different channels, and complex bots, you can't simply knee jerk move it overnight without destroying the community. Number one, the community has to want to move. A switch of that nature starts with people using other options alongside Discord. When there's enough people using something else, there needs to be a good plan laid out for how to build out the new server and make the switch seamless for the users.
?
https://fluxer.app/ looks promising
wdym there's been good alternatives to Discord for decades.
This is just not true at all, only recently have alternatives started to spring up that even get close to the number of features and level of polish that discord has (note, discord still has plenty of issues, I'm not saying its perfect)
For chat: IRC, Stoat, Fluxer, Root, Zulip, Matrix, Slack, Teams, Guilded.
For voice/video: Mumble, Teamspeak, Jitsi Meet, also several of the above.
The matrix protocol is actually easy to use, it just takes a bit of effort to get into. Once you're in, then it's as easy as Discord, I haven't had any issues and it's been a great learning experience. https://joinmatrix.org/
This is bullshit. I'm sorry. I've tried signing up on like three servers with Element Classic and Element X and all of them fail. Maybe I've just gotten incredibly unlucky with the instances I've picked, but it's been a much tougher time than joining Lemmy was.
I have an old matrix.org account I can use, but it's asking me to get something from a currently logged in session, which I don't have any. I saved all the files and phrases it asked me to when I joined originally, but it isn't enough. There's a possibility I missed one, but the fact that I do have a file and phrase saved in my password manager is evidence I was saving what it asked me to.
If worst comes to worst I can just use matrix.org, but I know that Matrix's "federated but de facto centralized" problem is much worse than Lemmy's (lemmy.world is big but not a majority, but I think a majority of people use matrix.org) and I'm trying to help fix that.
It's just frustrating. I want Matrix to be the Discord replacement but it's a pain in the ass currently. And Discord is so many things to do many people. It's voice for some, streaming for some, and for a lot it's the fact that it's DMs, rooms, servers, voice, and streaming all in one and with a very large user base. Matrix, to my knowledge, is only rooms, servers (or more properly spaces in Matrix, since they have real servers), and DMs. Back when I used it more frequently it wasn't super active. Especially for really niche activities. And don't even get me started on the state of NSFW matrix, I went down that rabbit hole and one of the top results was MAP stuff (pedophiles). There's also just a huge amount of furry stuff, which isn't inherently a problem, but when it seems like there's dozens of NSFW furry rooms and a top result on search is talking about which servers and rooms are sympathetic to pedophiles and the folks most likely to be leaving Discord are the ones who were doing NSFW things because that's what's actually age restricted I can't really evangelize Matrix as a good replacement.
This sort of turned into more of a rant than I intended. It's just frustrating.
(Edit: Also, to be clear, I'm not saying it's Matrix's fault pedophile apologists use it or that it's a top result, I'm just expressing frustration with the situation.)
I may not have been clear, I just meant that "Discord servers" are not "servers" in the way the word is actually used (meaning a computer) and that Matrix instances actually are real "servers". But yeah, spaces are like Discord servers.
Well of course discord users are pissed off they have to upload their ID. Now their discord kittens will know how old they actually are.
As if I'm supposed to take them at their word?
Not bloody likely.
The only credible alternative to discord right now that is also free and open source and not completely reliant on venture capital and traditional economics in general is Fluxer.appΒ - The app in itself is extremely promising and provides an almost 1:1 clone to discord with a few nice additions such as federation (which is still not available but in course of making). Unfortunately it is still under maintenance right now but I am willing to wait a little to be able to use something that respects me as a user and human being instead of being milked to death for my data to be taken by big evil corps who're actively working to suppress our freedom. It is the only financially sustainable and therefore credible FLOSS alternative to Discord right now. Also, about the controversies of the CLA, Hampus (dev of Fluxer) has completely removed it stating that it was just a loophole to use if fluxer didn't take off in the open source community. If course Fluxer eventually did take off and of course the CLA got removed
I won't delete my discord account because sometimes I also wanna chat with friends who still play on console but I won't chat on it again and I will definitely wipe out all of my chat history and leave all servers I've been, sooner or later
I wiped all messages too, because it feels good, but in reality I think you actually don't need to bother as they have already scraped everything and all it does is that other users won't see them.
Removed link to avoid perpetuating vibe coded software
Is it really? I actually didn't know, I'm not fluent when it comes to programming, thank you for letting me know.
Can you fill me in on the things that would tip me off in the future?
Sharkord an alternative to discord but I obviously don't recommend it
Has anybody tried fluxer yet?
Yes. It's literally the only one for the options thats an actual replacement to discord. Not some half shit fucked project that everyone's trying to shoe horn into being one. Or ran by idiots...
We have loads of alternatives, but no actual replacements other then fluxer.
There's also the problem that the current trend of open source decentralized bullshit going on is well meaning and has their hearts in the right place. But are so out of touch with reality that unless your chugging the Kool aid you can't in good faith say anything is actually acceptable for normal users. Maybe in another 5 years and if somehow the foss community pulls some UX developers out of their collective asses. But that's unlikely.
Even fluxer is months away from being ready for prime time. It needs more servers, better support for self hosting and just time. But it at least is actually trying to be a replacement and the developer behind it is actually targeting normal users. Not crack head foss people with no standards and more time then they know what to do with.
I love me a good over complicated poorly designed nightmare thats overly engineered as much as the next guy. And I do mean that legitimately. Tinkering is what I live for.
But fuck man... This is a problem that needs a solution that NORMAL USERS can just understand with no explanation. Which is something the foss community is famously unable to do with out a sacrifice of biblical proportions.
Thanks, that was very well written. I think I will give it a try.
Perfect 1:1 drop in hassle free replacement with the exact same feature set? No, there isn't.
Viable alternatives that aren't too bad to learn? There are many.
Oooh. Thanks for the tip! I just tested it and it's great, other than being slow which is understandable. Is it internet searchable? Or a walled garden?
I don't know if any of them aren't walled gardens. Everybody seems to be taking their design cues from Discord.
It would be nice to have a setting making the server public or private, and then search engines could crawl public servers (such as tech support groups).
Matrix is cool but it is definitely not an alternative to discord. Also, matrix is a protocol and not a platform! Element for example, is based on matrix but element is NOT matrix. Anyways it is not ready for prime time unfortunately and the main instance matrix.orgΒ has, uhm, questionable privacy policiesΒ
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They're delaying it by six months. They're banking on this blowing over by then. Fuck discord.
save