Copper

7 months ago by Ek-Hou-Van-Braai to c/historymemes

stupidcasey 34 points 7 months ago

Copper is actually ~25-250X leas efficient at transferring heat than a heat pipe and convection is hundreds of times more efficient than radiation at transferring heat and the fins on a heat sink would have hundreds of times more surface area for dissipating heat all that is to say this might work but it would be orders of magnitude less efficient than a standard heat sink.

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bluesheep 17 points 7 months ago

Heat pipes are fucking magic and you can't convince me otherwise

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MisterFrog 7 points 7 months ago

PHASE CHANGE IS LIFE

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Zink 2 points 7 months ago

I am in my 40s and almost every day it still pops back into my head how freaking amazing it was in high school chemistry watching water in the beaker above the bunsen burner stay the same temperature while all that damn energy went into the phase change.

I also have a pond in my back yard as a hobby. The ice has pretty much all melted now, after a lot built up during the very cold weather we had a while back. But holy hell, I started up the waterfall pump while there was still ice in places but water could flow. I had big slabs of ice that were in MOVING water and did not melt for DAYS because the water was almost the same temperature. It looked wrong, but the energy just wasn't there to do otherwise.

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Zink 8 points 7 months ago

But without this ridiculous heatsink, we never would have gotten the most perfectly nerdy Lemmy post.

And to give it credit, I think this design wins for how much heat you can sink into the heatsink itself before you need somewhere else to put it!

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stupidcasey 2 points 7 months ago

It might? The only thing is that Heat pipes still transfer heat faster than copper and the air from the fan moves the heat faster than it travels through the copper, the only question is is that enough faster to make up for the speed it takes to transfer the heat from the fins into the air that is all technically radiative and thus slow but it's only hundreds of times slower and as I already said the heat sink would be orders of magnitude faster so I doubt it.

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Zink 1 point 7 months ago

Oh I don't doubt that it would suck at it. It would just hold a lot of the heat within itself, eventually, lol.

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ZILtoid1991 4 points 7 months ago

That's the joke.

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stupidcasey 1 point 7 months ago

I assume the joke was either how expensive or how heavy it would be.

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altphoto 3 points 7 months ago

Water moving is much better at removing heat than heat pipes could ever imagine. It depends on how fast the mass of water is moving.

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thedeadwalking4242 7 points 7 months ago

I'm pretty sure the way heat pipes move heat is with water funny enough

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Ek-Hou-Van-Braai 8 points 7 months ago

Phase changing water

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altphoto 3 points 7 months ago

Yup, phase changing. Water in vacuum has to touch the heat source, evaporate, travel to the cooler side, condense and start over. As soon as your heat source prevents the cooling from happening, the cycle stops and it over heats. Like there's a point at which the water can't cool the source because its overwhelming.

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TheObviousSolution 3 points 7 months ago

What do you think heat pipes contain? Basically the same thing as water cooling systems.

Water cooling is basically a misnomer - it's basically a heat relocation system that that gets the heat moved to what are usually air coolers that pass the heat off into the air. If the airflow in your PC is ideal and smart enough, no need for water cooling, you can air cool at the source at nearly the same efficiency, no need for a pump. It's not as easy to manage in terms of space, but it has less maintenance issues.

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altphoto 4 points 7 months ago

I mean to say that a heat pipe not only contains less water per unit area for the phase changing cycle, since its under vacuum, but also the cycle only works at a particular heat per unit volume and temperature range. If you go past the temp range you get runaway.

Water in an active cycle has an almost unlimited ability to relocate heat. You still need to give that heat to something else, but you can pass a kilo of water thru a tiny labyrinth of fins at the heat source and a large surface area radiator with fan on the heat sink side. Vs a few ounces of water trapped inside a pipe running as a heat engine basically. Active pumping is brute force. At some point you won't be able to contain the water pressure if your source is too hot, but there are many different working fluids.

Its irritating when we try designing a new cooling system at work and some guy will always want a heat pipe when clearly there is only a narrow band where those things are effective. Specially annoying if you don't have control over the heat source. If you did have control over the source, then maybe you can tune it for a heat pipe. Car engines don't have heat pipes. Solar collectors don't use heat pipes either for the most part. Heat pipes need a constant source of heat that always stays below their max bandwidth.

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TheObviousSolution 3 points 7 months ago

It doesn't work for a lot of things, but your PC is basically a couple of flat panels where a lot of heat produced is localized to the GPU and CPU and it is potentially very easy to maintain a directed airflow close to them. A heatsink is basically good enough for that, and almost every GPU incorporates one, even the 5090's, even though the airflow design usually sucks for all of them because of how generic it is. Speaking of car engines, you can go a step better and precisely control the airflow to get great cooling results just with air cooling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cehXZftIYok

I see your point, but if it works nearly as well, why go for a costlier solution that requires more maintenance and lasts less when it doesn't require it?

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KairuByte 1 point 7 months ago

I feel the need to point out that water cooling has an upper limit as well. If you get things hot enough, the water is going to flash into steam, at which point it’s going to decimate whatever system it’s in.

You can add additives to prevent that, but at some point it’s no longer “water”.

Reading this back, I suppose this is pedantism. But still.

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ulterno 1 point 7 months ago

Yeah, but won't it also be much cheaper than machined, branded stuff?

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TheOakTree 2 points 7 months ago

Considering you can get a half decent tower cooler from aliexpress for like $10, probably not.

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ulterno 1 point 7 months ago

Guess we need to do a Cu block vs cheap Ali Express cooler comparison.
Cooling ability for the given workload (probably not much if the customer was satisfied by this one) and noise.

I would say it would have been much better to have the block wider at the top (trapezoidal vertical x-section). That way it could give even better cooling performance.

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ExLisper 33 points 7 months ago

Looks nice. Why they don't sell PCs with cooling like that? What are the downsides?

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ManaYoodSushai 96 points 7 months ago

I would guess that the low surface area would lead to problems. At first it would cool very well because of the huge thermal mass, but once it reaches thermal equilibrium the cooling would be quite weak.

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Ek-Hou-Van-Braai 64 points 7 months ago

I'd also think moving your PC will rip your CPU right off the motherboard

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Hedup 36 points 7 months ago

The trick is not to move the PC, but rather the copper block, which just happens to have a PC attached to it.

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fartographer 13 points 7 months ago

So, you're saying that putting blocks of copper on everything in a PC will automatically shed unnecessary parts, building a more efficient system?

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jaybone 13 points 7 months ago

Just run a solid copper block for maximum efficiency.

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ExLisper 25 points 7 months ago

So we need more copper?

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gigachad 13 points 7 months ago

Yes! The only way to increase the surface is to build a higher tower!

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Lucidlethargy 2 points 7 months ago

Theoretically... Hell yes!

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Slovene 15 points 7 months ago

lead to problems

We're talking about copper, dumdum.

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protogen420 4 points 7 months ago

how long till it reaches thermal equilibrium? maybe it can endure a full load for an hour

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jaybone 13 points 7 months ago

Your mom can endure a full… oh never mind.

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vithigar 10 points 7 months ago

You're looking at about a half hour per kilogram of copper to raise it by 50 °C with 100W of heat.

Actual delta from ambient to thermal limit will typically be a little higher than that, but so is processor wattage on mid-to-high performance CPUs, so I'm happy enough with that as a ballpark estimate.

Someone else estimated that block as 4.5kg, so you've got something close to two and a half hours of cooling from an ambient start.

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ManaYoodSushai 2 points 7 months ago

I was wondering about this too, but I'm not an engineer so I would have to look up how to calculate this

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grue 43 points 7 months ago

Do you have any idea how expensive a solid block of copper that big is?

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Iconoclast 40 points 7 months ago

If that block is roughly 4.5cm x 4.5cm x 25cm then the volume of it is about 500cm³ which translates to 4.5kg of copper. At 11€/kg that makes about 50 euros.

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tempest 23 points 7 months ago

Cheaper than some noctua coolers.

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TomMasz 1 point 7 months ago

If this were in an enclosure, would it cause the PCB to bow over time?

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AnUnusualRelic 33 points 7 months ago

Would you even notice, after buying the ram and storage?

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ExLisper 16 points 7 months ago

Yes but you save on manufacturing.

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Successful_Try543 14 points 7 months ago

Despite the cost, it's damn heavy.

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SaveTheTuaHawk 1 point 7 months ago

and just stupid. Cooling fins of aluminum work better.

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SolSerkonos 6 points 7 months ago

Copper isn't that bad. It's not cheap exactly, but it's probably going to cost what an expensive CPU cooler already would.

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Skyrmir 2 points 7 months ago

Probably around $150 worth of copper there, but you'll have to spend about twice that to get it because it comes in a larger size you'll have to cut down.

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SaveTheTuaHawk 1 point 7 months ago

but a CPU cooler will work better because it is active.

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SolSerkonos 1 point 7 months ago

Well, yeah. Even a passive CPU cooler would probably work better.

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WanderingThoughts 3 points 7 months ago

11 euro per kilogram

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SaveTheTuaHawk 2 points 7 months ago

What's a solid block of copper cost? one banana?

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bjoern_tantau 17 points 7 months ago

I have a micro ATX case that itself is the cooler. Heatpipes transport the heat to the case walls and they have fins to increase surface area. It can handle up to 65 watt CPUs.

It's not produced anymore. But with all the talk of the Gabecube I've been itching to make a new build with it. Unfortunately I have neither the money or the energy.

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SolSerkonos 8 points 7 months ago

Fanless cases are a thing, and they're neat.

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SaveTheTuaHawk 1 point 7 months ago

they use aluminum as a heat sink and heat transfer medium.

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dejected_warp_core 14 points 7 months ago

Weight, cost, and it's probably not effective for the long haul. The mass of a copper ingot like that will work like a heatsink, but it has a very low surface area for the energy it can absorb. So it'll heat up to a point that is uncomfortable for the CPU, then fail to radiate that energy out to the air effectively.

As a test-bench temporary heatsink, this is actually kind of inspired. No fans, to fussy clips, just stack a copper brick on the CPU, run some benchmarks, and then turn it all off.

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pulsewidth 12 points 7 months ago

Incredibly unwieldy. Real quick estimate of volume puts that at around 1.75kg of copper, so it wouldn't be possible to mount in a vertical PC case orientation (ie the majority of consumer PC cases) without significant (expensive) modifications to both the mobo socket mount and the case, else its weight would snap the motherboard, or just slowly flex it until traces failed.

It may not even be able to be used vertically like that for very long or it will compress and damage the CPU / socket / mobo. Just as an example, the weight limit of the thermal solution (HSF/water chamber heatsink/etc) for socket LGA 1700 is 950g.

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Successful_Try543 6 points 7 months ago

Real quick estimate of volume puts that at around 1.75kg of copper

I assume it's at least ~5 cm × 5 cm × 15 cm. Given the mass density of copper, 8.96 g/cm^3 , its mass is at least 3.36 kg.

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ozymandias 2 points 7 months ago

i find your estimate to be overed

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Successful_Try543 1 point 7 months ago

It begins with the question: How wide is the cpu?

Based on that dimension, it's approximately 3× as tall.

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Buddahriffic 10 points 7 months ago

My guess is that will only work until it saturates with heat. Some liquid cooling setups are also like that, where the rad isn't capable of dissipating heat fast enough to prevent the whole thing from overheating, but it'll work fine for a while because the loop itself can absorb a bunch of heat before it stops being able to take any more. Then they probably blame the chip maker for running too hot even with liquid cooling when their liquid cooling setup is actually less effective than the stock cooler or their case has horrible airflow and would choke any size or number of rads. But their reservoir acts as a heat buffer, so it takes 30 mins to even realize that, but they've already concluded it works.

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ZILtoid1991 2 points 7 months ago

And sometimes that even would be a good strategy for cases where there's only short burst of higher heat output.

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MarriedCavelady50 7 points 7 months ago
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stupidcasey 3 points 7 months ago

Copper is actually ~25-250X leas efficient at transferring heat than a heat pipe and convection is hundreds of times more efficient than radiation at transferring heat and the fins on a heat sink would have hundreds of times more surface area for dissipating heat all that is to say this might work but it would be orders of magnitude less efficient than a standard heat sink.

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Zizzy 2 points 3 months ago

Despite the size i would be very surprised if this was even equivalent to a moderate performing air cooler. The reason normal coolers have all the fins is for more surface area and youre able to easily and effectively push lots of air through, pullung heat off those surfaces.

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tigeruppercut 19 points 7 months ago path: 0 22452772, hotness: undefined, score: 19, children: 0
Alenalda 18 points 7 months ago

I hear this is what the inside of those flock cameras contain.

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modus 5 points 7 months ago

And free meth.

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mastod0n 15 points 7 months ago

Am I blind? What's that card in the PCIE slot?

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Kayyy 23 points 7 months ago

Looks like a PCIE to NVMe. You can see a short M.2 slot on the board, but that drive is wayyyy too big for it

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jinwk00 4 points 7 months ago

Thinking those M.2-22110 meant for servers (with ECC chip?)

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BurgerBaron 1 point 7 months ago

This poor jpeg has aliased edges it's so scuffed. I can't tell if it's an old SSD, an old photo..or none of the above.

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DarrinBrunner 14 points 7 months ago path: 0 22450948, hotness: undefined, score: 14, children: 0
lemmyng 9 points 7 months ago

Why is the motherboard resting on a towel??

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BarneyPiccolo 34 points 7 months ago

When I work on stuff with tiny parts, it helps to do it on a towel. If you drop something, it tends not to bounce too far, things don't roll as much, etc., and it's easy to see stuff on a white towel.

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smeg 12 points 7 months ago
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kensand 11 points 7 months ago

They don't want to scratch up their desk with the solder joints on the back of it? I'd normally use cardboard, but a towel probably works too 🤷

Or maybe it just has muddy paws that need toweling off 😜

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hayvan 4 points 7 months ago

OP is a hoopy frood.

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fx242 5 points 7 months ago

Why copper? Aluminum works way better as a dissipation surface.

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SomeoneSomewhere 25 points 7 months ago

Copper has more mass, heat capacity, and thermal conductivity per litre.

Is aluminium actually more effective as a dissipation surface? I hadn't heard that.

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fx242 5 points 7 months ago

Copper is better conductor but it's worse at dissipation. Do the experience yourself, heat a block of each and then touch them afterwards.

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SomeoneSomewhere 12 points 7 months ago

Is that not because the copper holds more heat, so stays hot for longer at the same dissipation?

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fx242 4 points 7 months ago

Maybe you're right, but I remember than in the 2000s I've had identical cpu heatsinks in both copper/aluminum versions, and the aluminum one had better performance. And then they started to make hybrid ones, stating that the copper part was to allow rapid heat transference and the aluminum parts to improve dissipation. But maybe it was all marketing.

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MoffKalast 4 points 7 months ago

Dissipation = thermal conductivity. Copper is better in both, it's just heavier and far more expensive. Are you sure you put the same amount of energy into both blocks there? A copper heatsink can generally be much smaller than an aluminium one.

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ulterno 2 points 7 months ago

The problems and complications with your method:

  1. Suppose Cu is much faster at heat transfer and you only briefly touched it. Your skin does not actually sense temperature, but rate of heat transfer, which depends not only upon the material temperature but also upon how well it will transfer heat. Better use a thermometer.
  2. As explained in https://lemmy.nz/comment/20463232, you need to make sure both have been given the same amount of thermal energy and not just heated upto the same temperature. The best way to do so, is by embedding a heat generator right in the middle of the block and transferring a measured amount of energy. e.g. You can embed an electric heater wire (you will require insulation too. That's your headache (ceramic, perhaps)) and pass current using a power source that gives a measurement of the total energy.
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Gaja0 14 points 7 months ago

Technically, copper is better at heat dissipation. Aluminum is prefered because it's cheaper and lighter. For an aluminum heat sink, you could have an smaller equally performing copper heat sink. In fact, this is the case for when weight and cost isn't a priority. Some heatsinks even use a copper core to wick away heat to the rest of the aluminum heat sink.

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zod000 4 points 7 months ago

From what I have always understood, copper is technically better, but it isn't dramatically better and it is heavier and more expensive. You likely couldn't make a heatsink like the full sized Noctua's and just mount them the way we do because of the weight alone. The price would also likely be double to triple.

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renrenPDX 4 points 7 months ago

Bro is flaunting their wealth. TWO whole sticks of RAM.

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glibg10b 3 points 7 months ago

O nice, nog 'n Suid-Afrikaner. Ek sien daar's baie van ons op Piefed. Hoe het jy van Piefed uitgevind?

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ConstantPain 3 points 7 months ago

The Thermolith!

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GreenBeanMachine 1 point 7 months ago
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Phineaz 0 points 7 months ago
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