Welp

3 months ago by cm0002 to c/programmer_humor

kibiz0r 150 points 3 months ago

Not even. Your job isn’t to protect prod, it’s to take the blame when prod goes down.

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IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds 41 points 3 months ago

If they expect you to write or go through 1000s of lines of code in a single day. your whole job isn't programming, is to be the scapegoat.

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EowynCarter 16 points 3 months ago

If I can't understand the code, and you can't explain, I'm not validating your pull request.

End of story.

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Rooster326 5 points 2 months ago

Just ask ChatGPT to explain the code

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BeardedGingerWonder 8 points 2 months ago

It's great at that, had a colleague run a diff through Claude and it explained how the new code was better and how the optimizations worked. Then my colleague realised they'd run the diff the wrong way round, fed Claude the new diff and Claude happily explained how the new code was better and how the optimizations worked.

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tutter 1 point 2 months ago

aint being the scapegoat exactly how you protect prod?

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Darkonion 83 points 3 months ago

Remember that you are also collecting the responsibility of 10 and the pay of 1.

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ItsMeForRealNow 41 points 3 months ago

I'm realizing how over engineered Claude's solutions are. I have realized now just today that it's best at just dding tiny updates to code. Not good at architecting anything new at all that has to work for longer than 5 days.

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python 24 points 3 months ago

I spent like an hour yesterday bullying Claude out of using a ResizeObserver, Refs and a useEffect construct just to fix the height of a container (there was a bug where the container didn't properly scale down in height because some weird hard-coded properties in an external component inside of it). I knew that it had to be solvable with just the right css selector, but I was lazy and didn't want to manually go through the html and figure out which selector on which component would be the right one. And on paper "Go through this massive block of html and check which property is out of place" should be the kind of use case where LLMs actually work. The stupid thing introduced two new different catastrophic failure modes where the entire browser crashed due to excessive rerenders before it found something that even remotely worked. And then I had to spend another hour stripping out unnecessary style properties it glued on while looking for a working solution. In the end, I probably would have been much faster doing it by hand.

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Blackmist 12 points 3 months ago

I threw together a slop project to test something. It put in some JSON for something that didn't use that. I told it it was just some plain text. It took the JSON library out again. Then I added in something that does use JSON and it tried to make a basic JSON parsing library from scratch.

It's like a very junior programmer at times, with amnesia.

It does make some menial tasks simpler, but if people think it will actually replace us then they're in for a shock.

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BlaestEgnen 2 points 3 months ago

It does make some menial tasks simpler, but if people think it will actually replace us then they're in for a shock.

That's the sales pitch, we're in a job market drought right now. Give it a year or two and all the slop will begin breaking, making a new job market boom for developers

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EowynCarter 3 points 3 months ago

But honestly I don't want to spend my time fixing vibe coded stuff.

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tatterdemalion 15 points 3 months ago

Yea if you don't explicitly give it direction on how to keep the code maintainable, it will gladly just spew shit into the same file until you have 10K LOC in it.

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Rooster326 3 points 2 months ago

Claude make me an app that makes me $1 Million/day. Do not make any mistakes. Make the code maintain able.

Thanks for the tips /s

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NigelFrobisher 3 points 3 months ago

To be fair I used to make entire features like this and then get R# to move the classes into separate files at the end. Guess I don’t like to organise too early, before the code has found it’s true form?

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goatinspace 21 points 3 months ago

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umbraroze 11 points 3 months ago

I'm unemployed, I'm incredibly snarky at the recruitment posts. (This literally hasn't changed in decades.) Right now I'm like "oh, they want Python programmers...? Good, I'm one. For web scraping tasks...? Okay that's bullshit. Wait, this is an AI job post? The MBAs, drunk with their Vibe Coding power, thought they could feed the Machine, but lo, they were mistaken!!! For web scraping was a Dark Art."

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PieMePlenty 11 points 3 months ago

Me, a programmer, without any formal education, eating popcorn and reading the comments.
Just a little bit of impostor syndrome tonight boys, feelin' good otherwise :D

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Blackmist 9 points 3 months ago

Shift + Tab + Fuck it.

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GreenKnight23 7 points 3 months ago

don't be the condom. be defective.

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Muffi 6 points 2 months ago

I am so fucking glad i pivoted to teaching. Now I run a Makerspace and teach young nerds creative problem solving. The pay is less but every day is a joy.

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Smaile 6 points 3 months ago

look whos the monkey on a type writer now :D

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jambudz 5 points 3 months ago

The whoop band confirms it

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brianary 4 points 3 months ago

Also called a reverse centaur.

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FoxtrotDeltaTango 0 points 2 months ago
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Zephyr -13 points 3 months ago

I think the pace of development is such that it's only a few years before humans are no longer in the chain of decision making. It was just 2017 when the infamous transformer paper came out.

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pahlimur 28 points 3 months ago

A stupid person would believe this.

"AI" in its current iteration is a distillation of human knowledge. It lowers the barrier to access to long standing programming libraries that make people think it is some sort of smart. It seems intelligent because it's imitating the things we have already created.

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MonkeMischief 8 points 3 months ago

Yeah, that's what bothers me so much. It doesn't get "smarter" or imagine novel solutions. It simply has access to everything that's already existed.

I'm scared we're gonna have already experiencing some kind of intellectual slump because handing everything to the machine built on existing knowledge...doesn't yield any new ideas.

I'm sure they're still banking on human brains having new ideas, so they can simply steal them and feed those new ideas to the machine. Then they'll tell the ideator their brain is irrelevant thanks to the industrialized intellect-theft device.

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pahlimur 5 points 3 months ago

The intellectual divide will be deepened significantly by "AI".

Ive never heard dumber conversations than people thinking "AI" is solving some hard problem. Here are a few examples:

  1. It pulls text out of a pdf
  2. It can read data out of a dwg
  3. It can overlay data into a 3d model
  4. It can update configuration data across lots of code

All of these could easily be done before, people were just too stupid to know how to do it without typing a stupid prompt and wasting resources to do it.

I wonder if this whole phenomenon could be explained by a Dunning-Kruger type effect. Where dumb people see "AI" as a great solution, and those on the smarter side see straight through it as a loud over juiced parrot.

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newtraditionalists 2 points 2 months ago

No need to wonder. You are spot on.

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ghodawalaaman 1 point 2 months ago

it's imitating the things we have already created.

dont you think thats exactly what most people want? they dont want to create next Linux :(

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pahlimur 4 points 2 months ago

Its more how unbelievably wasteful "AI" is to give dumbshits access to very basic tools. If and when it gets more efficient it will be viewed as we see search engines.

There was literally the dark version of Google to save energy on CRTs, and now it's energy consumption is low and normalized.

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twopi 1 point 2 months ago

I thought the dark version of google was because the default colour was white instead of black and white was more energy intensive then white. Noting to so with the engine itself

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Olgratin_Magmatoe 7 points 3 months ago

LLMs are incapable of reasoning. They just guess the next token.

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Zephyr -3 points 3 months ago

Neurons are incapable of reasoning they're just firing based on a deterministic action potential. What are neural networks doing but creating internal models of reality and guessing what's next based on patterns?

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Olgratin_Magmatoe 5 points 3 months ago

LLMs do not fit as neurons in your comparison.

Brains can reason, LLMs cannot.

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Zephyr -2 points 2 months ago

I'm not saying they are identical but they are similar in the sense that a neuron cannot reason. It's only in a quite large and densly connected neural network we believe there is reasoning.

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Nalivai 1 point 2 months ago

We would've bullied those nerds more for misusing the word neuron. It was cute at the time, but now they're running around being all weird thinking that since they can pretend to read that one paper a better way to do one computer thing, it makes them experts in how brain works, just because there are similar words.

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Zephyr 0 points 2 months ago

I don't think anyone who is aware enough is under the assumption that neural nets are a one to one replication of neurons. It's more of a special type of graph. That said one could also represent a human brain as a special type of graph.

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titanicx 0 points 3 months ago

What is the transformer paper

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Nalivai 2 points 2 months ago

Worst people you know pretend they read a math paper from 10 years ago, and it gives them deep understanding of all the complex problems you can imagine. It's hard to overstate how much this one paper fried their brains. It's even harder to overstate how it's actually just one paper about computer math

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wizzim 2 points 3 months ago path: 0 25073391 25075029 25075252, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
Zephyr 1 point 3 months ago

The white paper on the fundamentals of the current AI push. Everything is for the most part based on that architecture from 2017 but with cleaver twist or two.

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FiniteBanjo -136 points 3 months ago

Mixed feelings because obviously studying for a degree implies maths and sciences which does qualify you as an engineer, but imo "software engineer" isn't a real thing. You're either a computer engineer or a code monkey.

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kryptonianCodeMonkey 32 points 3 months ago

Your opinion is bad then. And I realize the irony of saying that with my username.

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eager_eagle 9 points 3 months ago

maybe on krypton code monkeys are licensed and everyone else is just doing engineering

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grue 31 points 3 months ago

"Software engineer" will be a thing when it's licensed by the state. Until then, we're all just glorified cowboy-coders with no accountability.

(Speaking as computer programmer with an EIT in a different field.)

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NotSteve_ 16 points 3 months ago

IIRC you can't actually use the title "Engineer" prefixed or not without having a P.Eng license here in Canada. Of course, that didn't stop my previous American employers from giving me the title of Software Engineer but it's not supposed to be allowed

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masterspace 12 points 3 months ago

Yeah, I've looked it up and this is definitely the case, I've also had both Canadian and American employers refer to my position this way continuously with no repercussions (I similarly have an engineering degree in another field and was an eit and am now in software).

It's weird because if the provincial engineering societies were serious about enforcing their rules, it would take them ZERO effort to find thousands and thousands and thousands of violations through like a single LinkedIn search. The fact that they dont put in such a minimal amount of effort kind of signals they don't care about the rule.

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SorryQuick 5 points 3 months ago

Which is completely stupid, you can perform engineering without having paid the order and it doesn’t feel like there’s any other word that explains the job quite as easily.

Looking up synonyms though it seems I could legally call myself a “software mastermind”, “software plotter” or “software captain”.

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NotSteve_ 5 points 3 months ago

I do agree partially but I also get wanting "engineer" to be a protected term. I think software design is probably one more valid uses of the term but I think applying it to everything ain't it (I.e. sanitation engineer).

Tbh I'm happy enough just having a Software Developer title

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BartyDeCanter 14 points 3 months ago

Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. “Software engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.

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ramjambamalam 8 points 3 months ago

"Software Engineer" is a title that is licensed by professional engineering organizations in Canada. Would you acknowledge that it's "a thing" in Canada?

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grue 2 points 3 months ago

Assuming the provincial or national government requires you to have such a license or be working under supervision of someone who does in order to be employed in the practice of making software, then yes.

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victorz 2 points 3 months ago

The fact that it's licenced in one region but not another, and you rely on the licence in order to grant it the title of engineer, makes your base completely fallacious IMO. How can you step over a border and suddenly change your mind? Makes zero sense to me.

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FiniteBanjo -3 points 3 months ago

idk about grue but imo that depends on the requirements of the title. If you need to be a real engineer capable of doing real engineering work to claim it then by all means.

If you need less than 14 math credits and only general ed science requirements, then no.

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ramjambamalam 5 points 3 months ago

CAEB accredites Canadian university programs, including civil engineering programs, electrical engineering programs, and yes, software engineering programs. In addition, provincial engineering organizations such as PEO require that all professiomal engineers are employed as engineers in training (EIT) for a period of time, have passed an ethics exam, and are in good professional standing.

TL;DR: yes, officially recognized software engineers are real engineers in Canada.

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zalgotext 3 points 3 months ago

During my computer engineering degree I was required to take enough math credits to earn a mathematics minor, and I learned the physics of transistors at a quantum level as part of the core curriculum. Do you think I can call myself an engineer, or should I limit it to just - what was the wording you used - oh yeah, syntax ape?

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surewhynotlem 28 points 3 months ago

I can tell you have a bachelor's of engineering. Not because I think you're being elitist. But because you haven't yet figured out that words are fluid and don't follow strict rules like systems do.

English is hard.

I have a B.E. as well. It took me years to word good.

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FiniteBanjo -19 points 3 months ago

You're on Lemmy so you'd be better off learning Mandarin or Russian.

Words which indicate a minimun amount of trained and proven competence or authority, such as Doctor or Police Lieutenant, are not things you can just claim willy nilly.

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RagingRobot 11 points 3 months ago

Dude, an Engineer drives a fucking train

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FiniteBanjo -10 points 3 months ago

I can respect that but you need to propose a new term for structural and electrical engineers to replace it if that's where we draw the line.

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surewhynotlem 6 points 3 months ago

If I say the word Dr. Dre, do you know who I'm talking about? If the answer is yes, then you understand that the word doctor is not always about the medical profession.

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FiniteBanjo -1 points 3 months ago

He doesn't call himself medical doctor dre or physician dre though

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Sunspear 24 points 3 months ago

Do... Do you think software on its own needs no engineering?

If I say please build me a webshop from scratch, do I need a "computer engineer" which presumingly includes hardware knowledge by your distinction? Probably not. Is a code monkey going to build me the website? Also probably not.

So somewhere inbetween the two, you probably need a position that can engineer complex pieces of computer code, along with its design and architecture - we could even call it something short, like a software engineer or something

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FiniteBanjo -11 points 3 months ago

Programmer

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ramjambamalam 6 points 3 months ago

A programmer builds the software. An engineer designs it.

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FiniteBanjo -11 points 3 months ago

Lmao ok pal

That explains why all the programmers carry around hammers. You know. To help them type in the word CMake.

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mnemonicmonkeys 23 points 3 months ago

As a mechanical engineer: if a software engineer completed school, they're an engineer, deal with it. We're not talking about someone that doesn't know what they're doing cobbing things together for 1-off demos like Michael Reeves

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Alfredo_DisguidoAlCazzo -4 points 3 months ago

Random insult to a guy that does entertainment quite well. Am I reading too much into it or are you randomly extra pissed?

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mnemonicmonkeys 2 points 3 months ago

From the videos I've seen, he just does trial and error - no math or understanding involved. That's not engineering - that's called design. Didn't stop him from bashing engineers in one of his videos saying that school was pointless. After that, I stopped watching his videos. Thankfully I only wasted time on 2-3 of them, including the swearing roomba.

Meanwhile I highly doubt he knows (or knew) anything about fatigue, trusses, or kinematics, things you have to have an understanding of in mechanical engineering. Maybe he learned after the fact, but I don't really care.

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Alfredo_DisguidoAlCazzo -1 points 3 months ago

You are not the target. And the says a lot of random shit just to flame imo.

I enjoy his videos because they are funny, not to learn any engineering skill

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eager_eagle 20 points 3 months ago

It's not a real thing because it's virtual? Or not being regulated makes it not a real thing?

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FiniteBanjo -23 points 3 months ago

I only consider Engineering to be the application of math and science to plan complex systems or structures.

If a person is doing that as a programmer then they have to already understand computer architecture to a bare minimum of how memory works physically, processor functionality, and discreet mathematics: which makes them a computer engineer.

If a person completely lacks understanding of math or physics behind the machines they code for then I don't care how complicated their derivative work is: it is not engineering. Much like how painting is not engineering nor is balancing a stack of rocks.

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eager_eagle 16 points 3 months ago

any computer science course teaches those things

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FiniteBanjo -17 points 3 months ago

To prepare the student for programming not for engineering.

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JackbyDev 13 points 3 months ago

So you believe that

  1. Engineering is the application of math and science to plan complex systems and structures
  2. Computer science teaches math and science to plan complex systems and structures

But you believe that computer science prepares students for "programming", not engineering, so they aren't engineers. Despite it being about the application of math and science to design complex systems and structures (engineering) and despite the fact that everyone else calls this profession software engineering and you call it programming. And you don't think you have a bias?

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FiniteBanjo -9 points 3 months ago

It's possible to learn how to do some limited engineering while working towards a comp sci degree but it doesn't magically turn every task you perform into engineering. Programming isn't engineering.

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drakairos 13 points 3 months ago

I'm assuming you've never experienced the world of safety critical software development like the medical and aerospace industries.

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FiniteBanjo -12 points 3 months ago

An engineer can code but a programmer is not an engineer. I have actually, btw, though not as a programmer but closely with them.

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CeeBee_Eh -2 points 3 months ago

This is very much a US specific thing

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Miaou 13 points 3 months ago

I get your point but I'm not going to pull out my whole resume when, at the end of the day, I write software for a living.

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FiniteBanjo -18 points 3 months ago

Programmer is shorter and more honest than software engineer, tho

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Miaou 14 points 3 months ago

True. It doesn't include my (legally recognised) title, however

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JackbyDev 5 points 3 months ago

Programmers and Software Engineers are different things, tho

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FiniteBanjo -9 points 3 months ago

Programmers and Engineers are different things, tho

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HobbitFoot 11 points 3 months ago

You should post this to UnpopularOpinions.

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FiniteBanjo -11 points 3 months ago

TBH it's not easy to get 98 people to engage with a bottom of the list comment so clearly some part of it is botted, which tracks because I'm pissing off sloppers and slopper admins every time I visit this instance.

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Warl0k3 10 points 3 months ago

The default sorting is hot - which does not show your comment at the bottom of the list. It's not a conspiracy, you just said something incredibly naive about a field that is over represented on lemmy.

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FiniteBanjo -7 points 3 months ago

I'm not on Lemmy. Lemmy is maintained by people who deny trans rights and fight for Russia.

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cmhe 11 points 3 months ago

An old professor of mine made the half-joke that anything with 'science' in its name isn't really science. He was a computer science professor.

I suppose he meant that computer science is closer to applied science aka. engineering than 'real' science like maths and physics, and all their subcategories.

Anyway... In the end everyone that graduated studying computer science got a Bachelor/Masters degree of science, not engineering... And it doesn't matter anyway...

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FiniteBanjo -9 points 3 months ago

You're right, we should let people who know HTML print out their own degrees equivalent to a 6 year discipline with specific application of math and science. /sarcasm

It matters.

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gandalf_der_12te 6 points 3 months ago

i think the word "engineer" has something to do with the word "ingenuity" ... now ask yourself, how much creative thinking do you need as a coder?

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victorz 4 points 3 months ago

Lots. It's the entire craft, what do you even mean? The whole thing is creative thinking.

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FiniteBanjo -4 points 3 months ago

Depends on the task, somewhere between next to none and actual engineering.

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jubilationtcornpone 6 points 3 months ago

I'm a "software engineer." One of the most interesting jobs I've had was working on a team of (mostly) electrical engineers at an industrial tool manufacturer. Most of the team designed electronics (primarily IC's) for the controls. A few of us designed software that interacted with said controls.

That experience taught me that engjneering, at its core, is just solving problems in a given domain with a a specific set of "tools". I was amazed by how much thought process overlap there is between software and electronics engineering.

My job is solving business problems. Writing code is auxiliary to that. And even though I don't have have a degree or any certifications, none of the people on that team ever talked down to me or tried to make me feel inferior.

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MonkeMischief 1 point 3 months ago

And even though I don't have have a degree or any certifications...

You must be really good! That's quite impressive, especially given how many jobs degree-gate just to filter applications so HR doesn't have to work too hard.

My job is solving business problems.

Sometimes I wish I got dopamine for solving business problems. I'd probably find myself in a lot more situations where people are willing to hand me money. XD

But yeah, software engineering is totally a thing. Like you said, it's just somebody (hopefully) carefully creating tools to solve particular problems.

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quantumcrop -1 points 3 months ago

Wait, are you a Someordinarygamer fan?

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FiniteBanjo -3 points 3 months ago

no

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Welcome to Programmer Humor!

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For sharing awful code theres also Programming Horror.

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