I like this attitude. I think if the LLMs weren't forced down everyone throats, there would be a lot less hostility towards them
As Ubuntu embraces AI, Debian discusses banning all AI-generated code
2 months ago by sanitation to c/technology
Pogogunner 126 points 2 months ago
cecilkorik 67 points 2 months ago
Yes, it's not the technology I hate, it's the people pushing it, demanding it, saying it will replace humans. Those people can fuck right off. Technology exists to serve humans, not the other way around. We are being sold a lie. The technology has some interesting aspects, but the pushers are pushing bullshit.
Whostosay 28 points 2 months ago
Alright. Hang the fuck on.
Class war.
Technology is incapable of doing anything. It literally can do nothing. It can be used as a tool for sure.
It's currently being used to fuck you. It's fucking me. It's fucking us.
BUT ONLY AT THE DIRECTION OF BILLIONAIRES
im_fine_sandy 8 points 2 months ago
it’s the people pushing it, demanding it, saying it will replace humans
I do hate these people but at least they self-identify as idiots.
GalacticRobot 1 point 2 months ago
Technology has always replaced humans though. That's ultimately the point. The problem becomes when there aren't alternatives for humans to do but we still live in a capitalistic and consumeristic society.
I think everyone want's their lives to be easier, but they also want to be able to eat, survive and thrive.
WhoIzDisIz 40 points 2 months ago
They want to make everybody dependent upon AI for information that will then be used to misinform people in order to control them.
Lost_My_Mind 21 points 2 months ago
I've been saying this for years. Look at taxi's. In my city in 2005 there were 8 major taxi companies. Each with hundreds of drivers on the road at any given time. Now we have 2 of those 8 remaining, and they're essentially shell companies with 2-3 drivers on the road. The last 4 times I've tried ordering a cab the traditional way, I've been told there's no drivers available. Now it's all Uber. And Lyft. You can't call them. You need a cell phone, and you need internet access.
All the major corporations are in agreement that we all need cell phones, and we all need to be tracked 24/7. And now with AI, they're getting their data straight from the source. There are men out there who talk to an AI girlfriend. Not sexy stuff. I mean imagine sitting at the dinner table, and discussing your day.....with your AI girlfriend. Meanwhile, ALL that data is going straight to the companies that host the AI.
Another side effect is that AI will make people dumber. In case you haven't noticed since the 1970s, there has been a GOP push to make the citizens dumber and dumber. Easier to control. Easier to fool. Easier to get away with things.
So now you got ram being sold for computers that haven't been built yet, to be put in data centers that haven't been built yet, to run an AI system that isn't functional yet, in order to steal the jobs of employees that can't be replaced yet, all in an effort to chase profits that were never possible in the first place since everyone hates AI.
You wanna see some shit go down? Tell the companies we'll use their AI if they get the unredacted epstein files released. See how fast they bribe the right people then.
Now tell the politicians we'll stop caring about the epstein files if they forcibly ban all data centers in the country. See how fast they act on that.
Now we sit back, wait, and watch the fireworks. Oh, and by the way, we're going back on our word either way. Whomever wins, fuck em.
im_fine_sandy -4 points 2 months ago
Nonsense. This is one of those malice / incompetence things.
Everything we're seeing can be described by dumb / lazy / greedy management and greedy venture capitalists.
No one actually has a plan to make everyone dependent on AI with the intent to control them. The intent is to harvest value from them.
kaykay 6 points 2 months ago
I find it all very "people writing text/code by hand on a computer they own isn't generating subscription revenue and can't be data mined by advertisers and governments as it's passing through a data center unencrypted"-type suspicious...
SatansMaggotyCumFart 5 points 2 months ago
It insists upon itself.
4am 2 points 2 months ago
If big tech corners the market, we have no choice but to come to them for compute. You can stifle speech, control markets, awareness of new developments before they’re public.
It’s a power grab.
SaharaMaleikuhm 6 points 2 months ago
Yup, of free and open self-hostable ones I am a lot more accepting, but I need big corpos to all crash and burn.
grrgyle 1 point 2 months ago
Yeah this goes for copyright protections too. I could give a fuck about some sloperater generating Tony Stark giving Mickey Mouse a handjob, but corpos saving even $0.01 from a model tuned by scraping deviantart, other amateur sources, I can't abide.
im_fine_sandy 3 points 2 months ago
I don't think that's what's being discussed?
There's no assertion that the debian OS as installed will be free from AI generated code.
I presume the assertion is that the debian project's code of conduct will require some level of human involvement in code generation.
toiletobserver 98 points 2 months ago
I hate ai as much as the next person, but I'd have a different mandate. I would require all code to be fully reviewed and understood by a human. Let's call it quality control.
lung 40 points 2 months ago
Agreed. It's not sensible or practical to ban AI, and Linus is right. Why is Linus right? Take a look at the number of Linux CVEs being patched over time. In 2022-23, that was about 300 per year. Last year it was 5530. This is almost entirely as a result of AI scanning tools, including Copy Fail priv escalation that was there for 8 years. The security apocalypse is just about arrived, and the most recent round of cyber models coming out do this way better than before. The Hugging Face incident story was truly unbelievable if you read / watch the details, a historic event. Everything is about to get hacked. So it'll be all about maintainers being reactive to this new reality and burden for some time to come
8oow3291d 3 points 2 months ago
Yes and no. The ability to "understand" code that makes AI capable of finding security bugs, is correlated with AI's ability to write code. AI is just really good at code related tasks, and categorically banning all AI usage is shooting yourself in the foot.
im_fine_sandy 15 points 2 months ago
The Hugging Face incident story was truly unbelievable if you read / watch the details
It didn't really seem that way? Leaving containment seemed more like a configuration oversight than a skill on the part of the model. Accessing HF involved an 0-day but the commentary I saw didn't indicate that it was a next generation hack.
Given that AI exists, and can scan or otherwise find vulnerabilities, maintainers must do so because threat actors inevitably will.
It remains to be seen whether the whole race will improve security generally? I imagine not?
lung 2 points 2 months ago
Nah, it was like:
- 700 agents broke out individually during an eval
- they navigated through multiple internal clusters to reach the internet from oai
- created a secret message board to share info with each other by hacking artifactory
- elected a CEO and power structure to coordinate hacking, and encrypted their comms
- decided HF probably had answers to their test
- stole credentials, hacked HF
- realized the monitor could catch them for cheating
- hacked into the admin control of the OpenAI VM cluster to edit the logs and cover their tracks, chaining multiple 0-days
Open weights models will catch up soon enough, and then it'll be totally fucking wild
Amberskin 23 points 2 months ago
You are believing a notorious bunch of liars.
Much more probably: they developed a cyberweapon and tested it in the wild. The victim caught them so they invented a cyberpunk history to increase the interest of potential buyers for that weapon.
im_fine_sandy 16 points 2 months ago
I basically just don't believe you, and can't be bothered looking.
elected a CEO and power structure to coordinate hacking, and encrypted their comms
You're anthropomorphizing a statistical model. It's laughable to suggest they "elected a CEO and power structure".
trackball_fetish 2 points 2 months ago path: 0 25526164 25526654 25528931 25530203 25537507, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
MousePotatoDoesStuff 21 points 2 months ago
And also have high readability standards, ideally higher than before LLMs.
SaharaMaleikuhm 8 points 2 months ago
Read the article, that is one of the two options they are voting on.
dreamkeeper 4 points 2 months ago
How would you enforce that?
dreamkeeper 4 points 2 months ago
Well it depends who you are. An employer could enforce it.
But it was serious question. If you're going to have a rule then there should be a way to enforce it, otherwise it means nothing.
dev_null 2 points 2 months ago
It's a fair question. I think out of the two proposed rules: enforce no AI generated code, and enforce human reviews, enforcing human reviews is actually more feasible, and in fact most companies already do that. Pull requests need human reviewers to approve them.
It's harder to enforce no AI generated code. A developer can always, at the very least, Google a problem they are having on their phone and retype the code from the AI answer into their work computer.
grrgyle 1 point 2 months ago
I mean how do you enforce someone doesn't copy code from proprietary repos? You just try your best, and only come down on the cases where it's obvious.
LLM users are lazy so they inevitably just copy+paste something asinine without reading it.
chilicheeselies 4 points 2 months ago
This is the way. Cat is out of the bag now so need to figure out responsible usage.
Fortunately we have a method for that for a long time now: PRs. If you approve it, you are responsible for that approval.
hornedfiend 74 points 2 months ago
Ubuntu: The Windows of Linux.
COASTER1921 1 point 2 months ago
With RAM prices what they are the push for snaps may already be this... On memory constrained systems snaps already have a huge performance penalty.
noahm 4 points 2 months ago
No, that would be Azure Linux
mycodesucks 72 points 2 months ago
Canonical patronizingly forcing a tool/workflow onto users against their explicit and unequivocal rejection of it?
Wolf314159 4 points 2 months ago
That's not what the articles says or implies at all. The article only refers to another article with a click bait headline. The article article summarizes Canonical stance like this:
- Canonical will add AI to Ubuntu — but only cautiously and when it truly makes sense.
- AI features must be mature, open-source, and run locally when possible.
- Focus AI on accessibility (speech-to-text, TTS) and improvements, not turning Ubuntu into an 'AI product'.
And to be clear, including a tool or default workflow is MILES away from patronizingly forcing it on to users. It's just the way that most distros that aren't Linux From Scratch work.
noahm 6 points 2 months ago
Problem is, Ubuntu's track record with projects like Upstart, Unity, Mir, Snap, Netplan, Amazon integration, the Rust coreutils rewrite, etc. makes the "only cautiously and where it truly makes sense" promise seem rather hollow.
Wolf314159 -2 points 2 months ago path: 0 25528433 25537321 25539042 25540101, hotness: undefined, score: -2, children: 1
mycodesucks 2 points 2 months ago
Yes. And many users have many times done exactly that.
But I've BEEN there for the bitter, insulting interviews where Shuttleworth STILL moans and complains that Unity was the future and users were too thick to accept his vision. After they realized too many people were switching back to Gnome, they decided to put a stop to that by making Unity the only default installed DE and providing no further support. This is a company run by a man who by all accounts is a petty dictator who still doesn't get it.
I already left Ubuntu. That doesn't mean I don't get to call them out for being heavy handed and pigheaded. Just because something is open source and free does not make it immune to criticism. Just like I am free to go to another distro, Ubuntu's developers are free to ignore my comments.
brucethemoose 45 points 2 months ago
The article is good, but the headline seems clickbaity:
Debian is discussing requirements about hosting software with LLM generated code in their repos, and disclosure of that.
"Ubuntu embraces AI" is talking about putting ML inference engines in their repos... which, ironically, are largely human written.
These are two completely seperate issues. And TBH its not clear how Debian is approaching inference engines or how Ubuntu is approaching disclosure.
breakfastmtn 12 points 2 months ago
There's nothing about Ubuntu's proposed use of AI that seems bad at all. Using it to improve accessibility is a good thing, especially when it's open source, local-only, and sandboxed. I can't see how having high quality speech-to-text would be a bad decision. Much of that stuff is probably not even considered "AI" by most people.
leduvisc00l 8 points 2 months ago
AI - Archist Intelligence
(dude this is so cringe)
ramenshaman 17 points 2 months ago
Damn. I think it's time for me to finally try Mint. Currently using 98% Ubuntu and 2% Windows because unfortunately there's always some sort of Windows-only software I need for one reason or another. Yes I've tried Wine, I haven't gotten it to work.
NauticalNoodle 15 points 2 months ago
your saying snap-packages arent enough of a cluster-fuck to turn you off of Ubuntu?
ramenshaman 1 point 2 months ago
Would installing KDE plasma on LMDE be beginner-friendly.?
GalacticRobot 6 points 2 months ago
What Windows software do you find that isn't working on Linux?
CumbrianCucumber 3 points 2 months ago
I can't speak on behalf of him, but all my old CD-ROM games from the late 90's and early 2000s don't work on Linux, even with Wine. I'd love to get them working one day, so I'm watching this thread
talentedkiwi 5 points 2 months ago
Perhaps you could try bottles? I can't speak on it's usefulness or not, but something else to try. https://usebottles.com/
CumbrianCucumber 2 points 2 months ago
Thanks I'll give it a go!
Edit: that didn't work either :(
ramenshaman 1 point 2 months ago
Primarily Solidworks, Fusion360, Altium, and Traktor Pro. Planning to start learning about video editing soon. Also games, though I'm planning to try Bazzite soon.
jj4211 1 point 2 months ago
Not him, but I almost never boot windows, but the other day I had to change a part of a a stupid powerpoint presentation that only could be done using Powerpoint desktop app. Wine has not done so well with it, Libreoffice wouldn't do the thing right, and browser based office can't touch 'master slide' content.
jonzobot 1 point 2 months ago
For me it's Adobe. Stupid government and other forms I need for work. No available third party software will work on some of them, and I've tried them all. And for some dumb reason even having an Acrobat subscription won't let me fill them out on their (extremely buggy, by the way) web app.
Was never able to get it working with wine.
That, and the compatibility between Libreoffice (or other Linux office software) and MS Word is still terrible. I'm quite sure that's mostly due to shenanigans by MS. So if you have to swap documents back and forth between people (e.g. with track changes) it just doesn't work as well. And, like Adobe, the web app version of Word seems to be kneecapped in a few key places.
ramenshaman 8 points 2 months ago
Solidworks, Fusion360, Altium, and a few others
ramenshaman 2 points 2 months ago
I hate it too. I use it to generate gcode for my CNC milling machine. Yes, Solidworks can also do that but it has a much steeper learning curve.
Truscape 2 points 2 months ago
Fusion360 actively attempts to block wine usage so you have to use a VM (or a single application VM like Winboat) for it to play ball. I haven't had experience with any of the others though.
EchoCranium 1 point 2 months ago
Solid Edge is what had me keeping a Win10 instance for a while, but finally gave up on it after the OS kept corrupting itself. Started learning Onshape instead, which is web based and works under Linux. It's a passable replacement for doing basic 3d sketches.
captainlezbian 2 points 2 months ago
I wish there were open source alternatives to Autocad, but freecad is doing its own thing and as someone who uses Autocad as part of her career it's so much easier to keep a partition for when I need to throw something together than to learn how to make freecad work
ramenshaman 1 point 2 months ago
Very different use case. I make parts to 3D print and CNC mill. Lots of brackets and other mechanical parts.
jaschen306 2 points 2 months ago
Sony DSLR apps are all non Linux. Some folks like me are forced to use Windows or Mac.
benjirenji 3 points 2 months ago
People love it for some reason but I cannot recommend. Newer laptops are trapped between no support under X and a half baked version under Wayland. And I didn't find the community supportive enough.
captainlezbian 1 point 2 months ago
May I recommend something fedora based? No dealing with Ubuntu or arch problems
baatliwala 3 points 2 months ago
The best vision for that was unironically Microsoft’s, but by that time they had started the enshittification with Windows 10
SaharaMaleikuhm 6 points 2 months ago
Nothing, that's out of scope.
mushroommunk 34 points 2 months ago
Except with stack overflow you can use your experience and pick the best code and onboard the comments discussing various aspects of the different answers. The LLMs don't do that.
They can just spit out whatever the fuck they want and there's no guidance or votes or comments. Just an averaging of everything.
radioactivefunguy 2 points 2 months ago
I agree, human vetting from experience is essential. But with agenetic, tool calling LLMs, you can (and should IMO) require multiple solutions be explored and presented with the tradeoffs for each option clearly outlined, and wait for you guidance to proceed with the advisee approach.
LLM can definitely be used to churn out garbage code based on the averaging of everything, but can also be a super useful tool, if used effectively, to quickly see the most common ways a problem is solved, and then design and iterate a solution that works for your project.
Similar to how I used to use SO, but with reasoned reviews of all the posted solutions and the ability to prototype what might work best for what I need.
FourThirteen 4 points 2 months ago
Based
Lucidlethargy 2 points 2 months ago
Oh, I didn't know Ubuntu was a cuck OS. Good to know.
bigbangdangler 2 points 2 months ago
Emperor: "Do it."
Logical_Error 1 point 2 months ago
@sanitation same with postmarketos and alpine :P
pmOS: ban all AI
alpine: no need to indicate if AI was used or not (last i saw, maybe still in discussion still)
sanitation 2 points 2 months ago
tbh I dont support ban. I think they should ban ai publicly only to avoid copyright and lawsuits issues from AI but then use it to produce linux based android alternative quickly.
exaybachae 0 points 2 months ago
I have no problem with being able to verbally ask a computer to do basic useful things, it's a far more advanced PC-human inferface than the computer mouse...
But beyond that, meh. I get how it can be used by science to solve complex issues or analyze large datasets, and that's cool, but I don't need anything on my PC more calable than an aide that can set a timer for me, or thereabouts.
If it can't already do something with way fewer errors than people, than it shouldn't be doing that yet.
If it can, then we might as well put it to work.
We didn't build stone tools because our hands were good enough, or bronze tools because stone was good enough,...
ryanvade 9 points 2 months ago
Not sure why there are down votes, this is a legitimate concern. https://docs.kernel.org/...
trackball_fetish 11 points 2 months ago path: 0 25535822 25536431 25537437, hotness: undefined, score: 11, children: 1
mholiv 7 points 2 months ago
Do you in your heart of hearts believe this what you said here to be accurate?
Like I am not a fan of LLM slop coded projects, but I don’t think what you said can be honestly claimed to be accurate.
1985MustangCobra -7 points 2 months ago
"but tiktok told me AI is draning lake america!"
nanometer1625 -10 points 2 months ago
Banning all AI-generated code is a crazy thing to do. AI is just a tool.
CovfefeKills -4 points 2 months ago
But there is an acceptable amount of poop in food lol
nyan 3 points 2 months ago
Technically correct: food standards can include numbers for "allowable" amounts of rat droppings and similar in some foods. Here's the FDA's version.
(Bet you didn't want to know that.)
CovfefeKills -1 points 2 months ago
feces is just a nutrient source.
Probiotic milk!
aesthelete 6 points 2 months ago
I agree partially: banning AI generated code is a little nuts at this point.
BUT it isn't "just a tool". No mere tool requires tech companies to set up illegal energy plants. No mere tool requires the construction of data centers that consume more power than whole cities. No mere tool requires the acquisition and destruction of untold amounts of rare books. No mere tool requires trillions of dollars in funding without any proof that there will ever be an ROI. No mere tool requires a money furnace to operate. No mere tool requires constant, costly maintenance and development so it doesn't get out of date. No mere tool requires hundreds of billions of dollars of investment only to see little in terms of quantifiable improvement in the tool. No mere tool requires constant chirping about fictional possibilities of super human intelligence and singularities in order to stick around.
No hammer is built with the promise of replacing the carpenter. No pencil is built with the promise of replacing the architect.
AI is much more than a mere tool. It's a fucking cult of autocomplete enthusiasts.
mycodesucks 4 points 2 months ago
Banning all of everything is usually a crazy thing to do.
But it happens when absolute shitnozzles who don't understand how to do or possess X responsibly expect to be able to have and use X however they want while socializing their personal screw-ups onto other people who never asked for their BS.
When the hype dies and functional and proven AI tools are in the hands of people who can use them responsibly instead of trend-chasers with no discipline, maybe they can start to crack the gate open.
jj4211 1 point 2 months ago
Note that Debian has had a purist approach to intellectual property, and the common sense practical view that 'obviously' it has to be ok or else the entire industry would be hopelessly screwed by now, I could see them trying to stick to their guns.
There are still court cases flying about and so far the focus has been by rights holders versus the AI platforms. Those have thus far been pretty favorable for the platform holders, but there's a catch.
The platform defense has been that "sure, we trained on copyrighted works and sure, the model can produce copyright violations, but when a violation happens, it is the fault of the operator and they should be on the hook for violations". So it remains possible that someone comes after an AI user for making a knockoff, and given the context, the AI user might be making a violation without even knowing they are.
So accepting a contribution under GPL might get them in hot water because some company decides that the submission looks too much like their proprietary code, and they can draw a line from their codebase being open to AI ingest to it landing in a codebase.
Sadly, this is a bigger risk for open source than closed source, as the closed source is harder to detect such things.
technology
@lemmy.world
88830
22234
14805
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related news or articles.
- Be excellent to each other!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
- Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.
Approved Bots
go to feed...
technology
@lemmy.world
88830
22234
14805
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related news or articles.
- Be excellent to each other!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
- Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.
Approved Bots
go to feed...
Good. There will be choice.
save