This is unacceptable. And I’m sick of all the fucking workarounds to maintain basic privacy.
ID required for computer use in general has to be my line in the sand and that scares the fuck outta me. I have no idea how to make ends meet for the people who depend on me, if I have to walk away from computers, but there has to be a line somewhere.
The problem is that they made people addicted first. This is like saying "Everyone, we need to boycott heroin until they stop cutting it with fentanyl!"
What we need is to take over the government and enact and enforce laws against this. Hopefully by voting.
Its like the first thing in my post "this will cause discomfort"
I didn't say it was going to be easy at all, its going to be hard, but with some conviction in the values / morals informing your reason for protest its actually easy after that initial week is over.
Edit: its also infinitely easier to enact change like this in your own life than to smash a grand slam with a "government takeover.". Not saying that wouldn't be great, but let's start with the things we have control over.
Also, you can just do both; vote and boycott...
Hopefully not by voting. I absolutely loath peoples misplaced trust in bureaucratic mechanisms. If you want something done you do it, I'm not going to vote for someone in one of the pre-approved parties, just for them to give 40 reasons why it's unreasonable. You are never allowed to vote when it could actually create change, remember that.
Run for office, then. And if that isn't possible, then it's time for more radical measures.
Voting won't fix everything, but there is a good reason voter suppression exists and why most people had to have their right to vote fought for.
Run for office and do what exactly? Okay, I guess i could potentially win something at a county or city level. Great. Then I propose things, and shucks all my proposals get turned down because more bureaucracy. "We can't do that, what with the state laws and such" I've literally watched this song and dance at many a city council meeting, often involving someone that I personally campaigned for!
What an absolute fucking waste of time it was for me to have even tried. I did everything the way I was supposed to, but I'm now almost 10 years into this, and I've got exactly nothing to show for it. Some of you might be happy doing this charade until you're 80 years old, but not me. Take your pragmatism, utilitarianism, whatever word of the day you decide to use to justify opportunism and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Sheeeit, I live in a state where we directly voted for a particular thing, like overwhelmingly the public said "yeah, do things this way for fuck's sake!"
And the legislators? They said "we don't think that's in your best interest, actually, so no, don't think we will". And that was the end of that. (Actually not really, they did similar stuff with a couple other things too, including screwing our teachers enough to get them to organize a bit despite how heavy their workloads already are, damn was I eager to help with that!).
Voting to solve problems. Lol!!
spoiler
Dear reader, if this is you, you don't have to begin anew the tired recapitulation of the arguments - I do vote, like a chump, every chance I get, while also knowing we simply cannot vote our way out of this, that has been engineered (and continually is!) to never happen.
Bingo. Voting does absolutely nothing & has never solved anything. All you’re doing is replacing corrupt politicians with more corrupt politicians in which the majority of them are bought & paid for & are handpicked by their wealthy donors.
It’s one of the reasons why I left the Democrat party in late 2022 & became politically homeless & turned to Anarchy.
The real answer, is something like grassroots. Civil disobedience. General strikes. A riot. A revolution. Those are what will spark real change. Voting is an illusion of choice. A sham. A fool’s errand.
Fuck off with your defeatist bullshit. Get in the streets and help protest
No, just tech that demands age
which is going to be all tech legally required to :(
I grew up in a time of technology being a liberating force that helped us live in a society more firmly based on individual rights.
I no longer live in that world.
No it won't be all tech, that's just giving into FUD. People run servers out of their house, people write software. People used to use websites Joe Shmoe wrote and ran in his basement. If you choose to use things like meta and google it is exactly that, a choice. Tor network, I2P network, Gnutella, freenet, usenet, torrenting, these are and always will be options unless the entire internet infrastructure is burned to the ground.
All tech?
Not doubting, just hoping for a little more sanity.
Sigh, guess it’s time to bust open a pre-code copy of ‘How to build Linux from scratch’
I fucking guess. I am at the point where I will take my children out of school if they are forced to do face scans or give any ID in order to participate and learn. I’m almost at the point where I would rather lose my job than comply with this
take my children out of school if they are forced to do face scans or give any ID
don't know where you live, but here in the ol' U of K, schools have been doing that sort of thing for over 20 years! I was appalled when I first heard about it, and I think it was from a friend whose kids had to give fingerprints. "Oh yes I know - big brother, but it's so convenient" was their attitude.
It is appalling, but I could see parents from 20 years ago being less concerned than now. Of course back then they weren’t aggregating user data to today’s level, at least I don’t think.
What bothers me too are things like Palintir. Like, I don’t want my kid in some massive police database before they even turn 12
I’m 100% not convinced that it will stay this way. This, to me, is a push towards ID verification. Age verification is a first step. To me, it feels more like a step towards building an infrastructure to track any user
a step towards building an infrastructure to track any user
I'm inclined to believe that infrastructure already exists (both state intelligence services and corpos like Meta), this is about being able to use it in the legal system and getting people to self censor.
My country provides ID from birth.
Biometrics are only collected around 5 years old, and only for the indicators, while signature only is requested around 7, after pre-school or first year of literacy.
Photo is taken with days or weeks. The state, all of us, recognize everyone as a citizens and their rights from birth.
Won't help much when the internet requires devices be verified by Google Play or equivalent to log into any accounts or do anything.
I guess maybe you can paint pictures and self-host things on your DIY OS, but the stuff web like banking etc that integrates you into society won't be accessible.
I don't even have Google Play, so not an issue
One cheap shitty android phone for adulting, the PC and main phone for existing. But they might come for that too eventually.
bust open a pre-code copy of ‘How to build Linux from scratch’
Short term, that'll help. Long term, it won't.
Sure, you can do that. Then what? If every single site requires a secure attestation from an identity service before you can use it, you re boned. Want to shop? Bank? Social media? Check the gd weather? If the site won't serve you w/o a strong identity proof, then linux won't save you. Linux will be an island.
IDK if it'll get that far. But it isn't that far fetched. Already today, I estimate 50% of site I try to use won't answer me if I totally block fingerprints and use a VPN. I'm talking mundane shit, recipes, car repair info, w/e. If I remove my privacy protections, they work fine. Nothing stops that from happening to any OS that deosn't prove a trusted ID attestation.
That's more or less what I do most of the time. The more roadblocks you put up for the tracking and data broker companies, the more the site is likely to block you.
There are lists of VPN endpoints you can just whack into an apache or nginx config. That's becoming more and more common for sites, over time.
Devuan, AntiX, and MX Linux all seem worth a look for people wanting to avoid systemd. More are listed here:
https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/
https://systemdfree.com/#distros
(FWIW, I think systemd's age data collection is optional, at least for now. It's not clear which Linux distros will implement/adopt it by default.)
no mention of guix on a systemd less distro list is crazy. not that i use guix, and im fine with systemd as a nixos user, but it feels like guix is the anti nixos. the richard stallman version of nixos with all the pros and cons that come with that
This is such a weird stance given the actual change that was made. No actual age verification, no external communication of any kind. All that got added is a number field. The ability to store a number labeled "age" for user accounts. That's it.
There already is a field for first name and last name. You can leave them blank as well (most probably do). If any software requires a number to be there, just enter 99 or whatever. Unless this gets severely worse this is such a nothing-burger.
I'm not happy about any step into that direction either, but pick your battles (or hill I guess). This certainly is a weird one.
i came here to say this but with WAAAY MORE words -- well done!
i think the fact that this community is so averse to admitting that this is a trend and the second such example of the foss community pre-complying w the epstein class' expectations speaks to an political ideology to refuses to accept that fascism is here.
I’ll have to give Devuan a look! I’m planning on a server style project next time, so I shouldn’t be crushed too hard by any peculiarities of the init system(s) I try
Linux so far is mostly exempt and it's the big corporations like Microsoft, Apple, and Google who actually want it so they can sell that info and use it for ads. For Linux, just consider it one more criteria for choosing your distribution if it comes around. If the distro adds it as a requirement for install, then move to another. Fortunately there are lots of good ones these days.
Their gun laws are insane too
If by "insane" you mean barely adequate, then I agree.
"Inane" not "insane"
I will not comply. I do not care how hard it makes my life. This is a line in the sand I will not cross. If a social media asks me to upload my government-issued ID, that's the end of that social media. If a computer asks me to use my government ID to use it, that's not a computer I will use. The only online service I can see that would need my government issued ID is my bank. And that's only because they are required to collect it in order for me to have an account. Everything else can go fuck right off.
The only thing I’m most worried about is losing my job over non compliance. I can handle not participating in society. But if that’s what it takes to draw the line, I’m really considering it now and finding an alternative way to live. It’s dumb that this can even be allowed. But at this point, it’s obvious that the top just wants wage slaves to exploit in every way possible. I can’t imagine my kids growing up like that, ya know? It’s got to stop
Monero jobs.
Wait, what did we miss here?
Enjoy not being able to use your bank, major websites, email, online shopping, pay utility bills, do basic and required civic functions online (that require alternatives of driving long distances and/or waiting on the phone for long periods of time), etc because your open source operating system doesn't pass the attestation check.
Maybe not long after Google, Cloudflare and others will just block you behind anti-bot defenses because you don't pass such a check and only bots would not pass such a check.
Hiding on Linux is not a solution to a legal problem. It's at best punting.
This stuff is either defeated or you'll enjoy living as a hermit cut off from society with your perfectly private, perfectly offline computer.
What I'm about to say, I say only as an alternative in conjunction with fighting legislatively: It's time many of us alter our behaviors to accommodate these crackdowns. Not as a matter of subservience, please don't think I mean it that way, but as a matter of practicality and survival. Make cash withdrawals when possible to pay for goods and services. Transition back to paper bills. Separate from computers where you can, while also understanding that the places you can't, you're just going to have to deal with the bullshit. Resist where practical, if only for your own sanity.
Well said. A lot of the freedoms we enjoy are a use it or lose it scenario. For example a business is more likely to stop accepting cash if only 1% of their customers use it, so I still use it even though I would often prefer my card.
How about you shut up with your defeatist bullshit and help push back
If general computers are outlawed, only outlaws will have general computers.
I use an open source browser with a hardware TAN generator for banking. I pay with an NFC card. All the websites I care about work with open standards. Fuck the rest. I am perfectly able to run my own email servers. If online shopping requres proprietary bullshit they lose me as a customer. My bills are direct debit. No, there are no basic and requred civic functions that must happen online. I simply walk or go there to do that in person.
I am already frequently blocked by Cloudflare because I use an always on VPN and only open source tooling. I simply cease to use such services.
You are correct that the proper solution to fascism is to go away or to kill them.
Besides, less facebook means more sanity. Nothing real happens in 99% of cyberspace.
Edit: so, my bank freaks out if I vpn through Santiago, lemmy.world freaks out if I vpn through Brussels.
That does sound enjoyable. I wouldn't consider that a hermit though, quite the opposite. Going out in my own neighborhood and doing things sounds much better than all that other crap. That is actually being part of society.
I am not sure this is the negative you think it is. If my electric company and bank wont give my an avenue to simply pay bills (I hate online bill pay already) and I don't have to spend hours trying to talk to an AI chat bot online for costumer support, I am not sure I care that much.
If my bank is uninterested in serving me then maybe I need to change banks. Fuck them. I know you are going to say they will all be this way. Ok set up my own, I have gotten around this bullshit before.
I already to deal with a lot of this. I am not allowed to interact with a lot of places due to region bullshit when I am working remotely in various countries. It is already annoying.
I just use a wok laptop and desktop for that stuff. My laptop and phone block everything and those are the items that travel. Not perfect but better than nothing.
See, it's very important that every minor online tells everyone they're a minor, so predators know to stay away.
That's if i'm thinking of the same proposed California law from some months ago that looked like it was written by someone who doesn't know what a computer is.
Currently, the age requirement is attestation. You click through an age gate.
So essentially its the same as most social media, which currently requires you are over 13. Kids have long learned to lie about their age to set up social media accounts.
Laws may get passed to require an ID check or confirmation, but at that point that'll require telling the device (and its corporate masters) your identity and I think that's going to interact with privacy rights.
I learned in the USENET days to adopt a handle, to keep my meat identity separate from my online identity. We're going to have to learn that again.
The real workaround is using Linux. Age verification isn't truly enforceable in Open Source software
Apps will get your age range from your operating system using an application programming interface (API). In other words, they’ll ask the operating system for your age range and get a response.
It's likely that we'll get block if on Linux unless if the OS has a token for that check.
But I agree with you, Linux is the way to go. Windows will end up being a surveillance camera first and foremost, especially if you couple the "age" check with the cloud integration.
My DoB is 2000/01/01 then
I thougt everyone was doing January 1, 1970, or whenever the Unix epoch is.
What are you supposed to do with work laptops and such that get passed around? Head of IT supposed to submit their ID for each one?
Stallman calls this “Service as a Software Substitute” (SaaSS): users operate weak “thin clients” while the real computing happens on someone else’s server. He argues this creates dependence and oppression because users cannot control, inspect, modify, or reliably access the software handling their data. He develops this argument in “What Does That Server Really Serve?” (2010).
My collection of hoarded media waits eagerly if this forces me to say goodbye to the internet outside of work obligations
Work is an interesting point. Maybe working with a computer (a till, a barcode scanner, a stock checker, a multimeter) will be the thing that gets people scooped up and compliant first - even if you are using a work device, on a work network, on the business premises. If you want the $10 an hour: "gotta scan your ID, or you can't activate the wafflegrill"
I’m waiting for the selfie required logins. Right now, you log into YouTube or anything else with that user base and they want a selfie and a phone number. YouTube even asks for your address. You can skip. For now.
Oh, yeah. Like those memes with selfie logins to unlock a toilet or fridge.
You log in and then the AI agent will summarize what you're watching and contact the authorities in case it flags you suspicious? How dystopian!
The Linux exemptions in Cali and Colorado bring up something else if that gets followed on a broader scale: Can't apps and services just start blocking Linux and start specifically demanding Windows or Mac?
Can’t apps and services just start blocking Linux and start specifically demanding Windows or Mac?
In principle? Yes. It could become a complete cryptographic attestation chain.
I don't think we're right on the edge of that rn. But years or decades from now? Who TF knows.
And nothing of value was lost.
Imagine a world where everyone is connected via brain implants. Reality is fully augmented and thoughts are bought and sold while being carefully screened for violations. Only individuals with enough credits can be free in their own minds. What makes us human gets lost as we progress into the singularity.
Apps will get your age range from your operating system using an application programming interface (API). In other words, they’ll ask the operating system for your age range and get a response.
It's likely. But I don't know how much of an effort would be for a Linux based OS to have a pre-made token for that kind of thing.
My work programs from back when I was in accounting, uh, none of them work on Linux. They haven't even started working on Linux versions.
It also drives me nuts as a non-American that random states in America can pass laws that I then have to deal with.
I mean I already use Linux but I'm sure I'm going to bump into this somewhere eventually. I think this might be the final straw though, I pretty much don't use any social media as it is, this might be the thing that just makes me detach from the internet altogether, or as much as humanly possible at least.
Yeah I hear you. Now you got to do a facial scan and fingerprinting and all sorts of other stupid shit. I wonder what the angle is? Are they trying to keep kids off the internet? So now I have to throw my information up there because parents can't manage their kids?
There are sophisticated algos for fingerprinting. It might take several data points to identify you on the internet. If they have your IP and your date of birth, they only need two.
Shut the fuck up, nobody cares about your robot fanfiction. Know your fucking place, trash! Fucking robots, I don't talk about no robots. They got no soul.
- FilthyFrank
Things will just get worse if we don't do something concrete, like organizing protest marches and petitions, going on strike, and similar.
Quoting from an episode of Slow Horses: "heavy on hashtags, light on results".
Sad thing is, is that the majority of people are too lazy, cowardly, propagandized & weak-willed. We need to be like the citizens like Hong Kong & Sri Lanka from riots against their governments (& Nepal as of recently when their government tried Identity Verification).
We need to be putting the blame towards the World Economic Forum for introducing this bullshit & our corrupt governments for kowtowing to them.
It's even sadder when you consider that SOPA caused a mass blackout protest which ultimately got it hidden away until its chance to reappear and this time maybe actually become law.
No one's doing any sort of mass blackout protests this time around.
No one has any savings left in case our jobs terminate us after receiving a threatening letter signed by Kash Patel over continuing to employ us after a Flock camera identified us at the protest that the news is reporting was filled with pedophiles mad about protecting children.
It's more complicated than that. A lot of people simply don't have the time and energy after work for this.
A mass movement like this is going to need a support network, much like some of the successful ones in the past.
Because it’s all by design. They need to find a way to make time, especially when it comes to their rights. Everyone who fought in the civil rights war for our rights had. And that’s just one example.
Yes, they do. And yes. it is. But unfortunately, because of that, most of them will need some level of support and positive encouragement to do so.
Also, if you think the Fediverse is gonna be safe from this, then I have bad news for you. Also, decentralized networks in general could be targeted by this sorta thing if what happened to A/I is any indication.
What happened to those Mastodon instances and to A/I is proof that even decentralized networks can be targeted by censorship.
True, the fediverse isn't immune from oppressive governments having physical access to its servers or users.
It does, however, prevent easy worldwide censorship possible with corporate social media, especially those HQed/hosted in SilV.
Scaned ID will never be targeted by hackers in order to set up some massive identity fraud, right? Or even if they try, the vibe coded online verification would be so secured that it is impossible for hackers to steal the datas, for once, isn't it?
Who could already tell that it would be a massive security breach?
Future keep so big surprises for us ̂ ̂
And I'm sure there's no chance the info won't just be sold off to some AI company at the first possible opportunity. Also a reminder that when Musk was doing his DOGE thing they were just dropping into government offices and installing their own servers that do who-knows-what.
Giggles in Gentoo.
Shadow tech anarchist culture, here we go.
Cool kids use Omarchy! Go kill yourself!
If you think that some asshole won't be willing to legislate that away, think again. It might be the last refuge, but it is entirely possible to shut that down
you can’t stop free software.
No. But you CAN stop providing any online services to free software.
G already has been moving toward requiring a "trusted OS" to get past fucking recaptcha. It isn't rolled out yet. But it could be.
Linux can't stop that, b/c it can just be blocked from everything if the trusted OS attestation isn't present.
And hypothetically that reCAPTCHA could also serve as an ID of sorts:
- Any Google account verified 18+ gets full web access.
- Any Google account 14-17 gets mildly restricted access.
- Any Google account 9-13 gets heavily restricted access.
- Any Google account 8 and under or anyone without a Google account is locked out entirely.
.... That could be a pretty effective way to completely lock down the web. And then moving everyone back to time-sharing on rented terminals will be the final nail in the coffin for personal computing. If Big Tech gets their way, personal computing could be killed off by thin clients or terminal apps connected to a rented cloud server.
No. But you CAN stop providing any online services to free software.
Good news, I already don't do that. But lots and lots of people do without any company involved at all.
G already has been
Are you just not going to explain what "G" is?
Linux can't stop that
It...doesnt have to?
You can legislate it to the point that it's only possible to spread or hand to hand, and doing so is illegal. Hell, they could go a step further and make just having a copy of it within your house illegal, even if it wasn't installable.
In any real terms, that means the only way to keep a foss os is to build it entirely yourself. Not build it from source, but code the source from the ground up. It would take time to happen, but when enough time passes, both only do the skills necessary to do that fade, but hardware changes being closed would add another layer of difficulty. Look at the pain in the ass that android rom developers have trying to get AOSP going on a given device.
I get it, I get the dream of a dedicated and determined underground keeping Linux alove under an oppressive regime, but it isn't realistic
I don't agree. They would have to ban the entirety of free software, in which case they'd take down pretty much the entirety of all software in the process.
Also TOR is a thing.
Basically the plot of https://analognowhere.com/
You can fine public orgs but it will just go underground unless they permanantly shut off all internet infrastructure which they will not do
torvalds is pro ai
debian is ai
ubuntu is ai
linux is conforming/selling out
linux no longer looks like it is likely to remain an escape route from all of this bullshit.
This blanket statement does not capture the reality / nuance. They are pro AI in the sense of using it as a tool for development not to shackle the entire human race into a surveillance state.
Self-reflection?
Quick, get out of now while you're still normal.
Jensen Huang too, so it looks you have to be pro ai now, I mean Ed Sheeran is probably all up in it, so it must be the goat fam lol
Yeah, Twitter did already because I connected with a VPN once. Good, no more Twitter then.
People need to fight back! But I guess it's already too late. They've already succeeded in dividing the young people, so there can be no coordination or solidarity. Brainrot is real!
Too early to admit defeat. Young people have their limits, too, and grow more aware of the shortcomings of modern corporate tech than their parents. They are also the first to embrace new circumvention techniques, along with entire new ways of communication.
The battle's far from over.
In order to protect the children, you have to give us their juicy, delicious personal information. You see, without that scrumptious information that advertisers clamor for, how else are we to know not to show little Timmy beheading videos on our platform? For all we know, that predator is chatting with a 35 year old when they tell them that they're really mature for their age. There really is nothing we can do if you don't let us feed your information into the machine.
Use Linux, if you need windows put that shit in a VM.
IMO, we all need to learn QuebeOS.... The digital landscape is getting scarier days by days
I was born in 1900. I said that the first time I entered a porn site and if something I will be consistent all my life.
What makes you think your device has anything to do with it?
It'll be Netflix, your bank, the DMV, email clients, forums, reddit, TikTok, Facebook, Intuit products like TurboTax and Quickbooks, various GIS systems, mobile providers, app stores, games, rideshares, food delivery, amazon, twitch, X, they'll probably make some laws that Lemmy has to be blocked unless they do it, etc.
"We're sorry, your operating system does not support legally-required methods of age verification. Please upgrade to an Amazon Fire Tablet where everything runs from the cloud and its impossible to do anything except what we allow you. Please drink a verification can."
I mean I get what you're saying.
But you estimated my level of spite too low. 🙃 I'm using outdated OS's; sure everyone argues security, but nobody is going to bother with you when you're one out of a million, why not just find an exploit for the million right?
As far as what you mentioned, I pretty much don't use any of that stuff anyway other than lemmy and facebook crap (for international friends). The bank and dmv, lol those idiots just had a major data breach where I live, require an ID already, I go there physically.
A lot of things I do, are done through software and physical proxies.
Whatever requires me to make an account or download a cr'app; I just find something else to do.
I check on whatever info is floating on the web that's easy to access. As far as I'm known, I'm Japanese, Married to an ex, and live in another state.
At the end of the day, if push comes to shove, I have plenty of other things to do and get done that play these age verification games.
and multiple other internets built on this one, you can use them and slowly move out of these ecosystems. More people that try the easier it'll be.
Doubtful. The only Windows computer I have is the work laptop and they're unlikely to be worried about making corps verify their ages.
No, it won't. Or I'd just uninstall that package.
Will someone just hurry up and build a wall around the usa?
We're building it as fast as we can!
It needs a roof too.
Please don't give our government more ideas, they might actually do it
The wall is for the rest of the world, the usa had its chance to be decent and chose to be the exact opposite for many decades. Now even with something as revolting as trump, the people still show no sign at all of ever waking up and being decent.
My one hope with all this nonsense is that it will drive people away from centeralized products and toward more open , democratized options ( and that those options will remain excluded from these laws. )... but the world doesn't normally go the way that I want.
@lemmy.ml
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
Some Rules
- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
- Don't promote proprietary software
- Try to keep things on topic
- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
- Be nice :)
Related communities
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
go to feed...
@lemmy.ml
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
Some Rules
- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
- Don't promote proprietary software
- Try to keep things on topic
- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
- Be nice :)
Related communities
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
go to feed...
We need to collectively abandon tech that insists on any of this. I post about this often, but I'll say it again: this will come with discomfort; you need to be okay with that temporarily.
These ghouls cannot withstand weeks / months of boycott. They simply can't, daddy earning reports and the shareholders won't allow it.
save