EV Charging Doesn't Need to Be as Fast as Gas, Ionna CEO Says
8 days ago by Mustachius_Grumpius to c/technology
The fact that so many people don't think about this or are unaware shows how well the propaganda worked.
Here is a car that is by far the easiest car you'll ever own, the power to run it is the cheapest you'll ever see, and 99% of your trips will be within one charge/tank meaning you'll never need to worry about range ever - but the propaganda convinced them all that that's a deal breaker.
As an EV owner the road trips we take are the vast minority of driving anymore. When we do there are options.
- plan out your route and stops. Requires maybe 15 minutes of planning before your trip. You pick a place with food nearby, get out for 30 minutes, stretch, eat your meal, and you are good until the next meal.
- if you are one of the 80% of households with 2 cars, take the other car for that roadtrip.
- get a rental car for your trip. (Remembering that a couple hundred for a rental car is vastly cheaper than paying for gas for 10+ years)
I can't help but feel if EVs were invented first, convincing people to adopt gas cars would be impossible.
- "You mean I have to take it somewhere and stand outside every time I need energy?"
- "Why do I have to put all these fluids in it? And why does it need all these filters, brake pads, and maintenance?"
- "These things are so slow, why would you ever want to drive one?"
- "What do you mean I can't turn on the climate control anytime I want? You mean I have to wait for this thing to heat up?!"
The saddest part is that EVs were invented first, but it was easier to tanker fuel everywhere, rather than building out the electric grid in low-density areas.
First, just to be pedantic, EVs did exist first. They go all the way back to the early 1800s. But battery technology didn't advance enough to make them a good option until recently, so your point remains.
I fully agree with you that the only thing keeping gasoline going is inertia. There have been parodies applying the same logic to other fields, like the gas-powered phone.
There's a reason why 80%+ of EV owners say they'll never go back, and a good chunk of the remainder are just waiting on the field to mature a bit.
EVs still use brake pads. lol
Also electric cars, gas, and steam has a bit of a format war in the 1890’s-1920’s or so, and people really did make a lot of these points back then. Unreliable and sometimes unsafe chargers (basically due to people not understanding electrical engineering as well as we do now) were a big part of why gasoline won out
EV brake pads can last a lot longer on one pedal cars. Henry Ford's wife drove an EV, she hated his gasoline cars because they were loud, stunk, and could not be started by most women.
EVs still use brake pads. lol
not really. almost all EV breaking is regen, unless you drive like shit.
Ha, I never thought of it that way but yes, that tracks perfectly. The "inconveniences" of EVs aren't worse than gas cars, it's just that the gas car inconveniences are considered "normal" right now.
"leave it running in a closed garage and it will kill you in minutes with poison gas"
“the wear and tear from containing thousands of internal explosions will inevitably wear parts down over time.”
Also, that place is disgusting and you have to step over the rotting corpse of 600 soft drinks poured out next to the pump, then touch a handle which is visibly soiled and often sticky, and then you will probably smell like gas for at least the next 20 minutes.
1 pedal driving doesn't use brake pads to slow down your car. You still have brakes in case of an emergency, but if you're using them enough to wear out your brake pads then you're doing something wrong. As someone else pointed out, you're much more likely to rust off your brake pads rather than wear them out.
I can vouch for this 100%. Have had an electric vehicle for 6 months now.
The vast majority of my charging has been done at home on 120v. Granted, my wife and I both work from home most of the week and have short commutes. Our grocery store has free 240v charging so I top up while I shop.
We took one long trip in those 6 months and rented cars for the drive to/from and used public transit while we were there.
I used a fast charger for the first time this weekend to drop off a kid at the grandparents a couple hours away on Friday and then picked them up in Sunday. Didn't have enough time between trips for the trickle charge to leave me in a comfortable range. 20 minute fast charge did the job for about $15.
A year later, we still haven’t even gotten a 240V fast charger at home. Still just pluggin’ in to the old wall with a regular old cord. We still manage to get all the charging we need done during the cheap-metered hours, too.
I laugh when I think back to buying the EV. I was so panicked about getting fast charger as soon as possible. I thought the wall plug would get us through the weekend while we tried to find an available electrician, but then we’d get desperate. It just never happened.
After 100k miles in an EV, road trips add about 20 minutes for every every 3 hours of driving. That's all. It's basically a trivial difference which gets statistically lost in the noise of traffic variability. If this causes an issue, it's a lack of prior planning.
I fully agree with you, but you should check out the rest off this thread. I have someone who literally said:
I’m not willing to compromise on my road trip plans.
I'm unwilling to plan out two 20 minute stops in my day long road trip that happens maybe once or twice a year in order to have the lowest maintenance lowest fuel cost vehicle I have ever owned. Not to mention the other two options if you seriously cannot do it. People are so carbrained/gas brained I just can't even. I will never go back to owning an ICE vehicle, literally why would you?
Yep, though that depends on destination in some regions. When my partner and I planned our trip to their parents' place, what's normally a 9 hour drive turned into a 13 hour one because we ended up having to charge up to 100% from 5% for one of the intervals due to lack of CCS stations, which was nearly a 60-70 minute charge each way.
That may have changed in the intervening year, and I'd love to have that drive only extended ~1hr instead because we can do ~15% -> 80% charging intervals instead.
Requires maybe 15 minutes of planning before your trip. You pick a place with food nearby, get out for 30 minutes, stretch, eat your meal, and you are good until the next meal.
It assumes when you want to eat coincides with when you need to charge. It assumes there's something you want to eat within walking distance of the charging station. Also assumes you eat as often as you charge. I almost never find any of those to be true.
And what will happen to all those gas stations when we are at 90% EVs adoption, as is the goal? Where will you find a gas car to rent? How many gas stations will be left? EVs still need to be much faster at charging if we are going for high adoption
okay so a few times a year your meal isn’t exactly when you want to eat. or you can’t eat exactly what you want to eat.
i’ll take that over having to go to a gas station weekly to fill up and pay $50 for the privilege.
the vast majority of their charging at home or at their destination.
Absolutely true, which is also why I found it extremely annoying when reviewers began claiming that range wasn't as important as fast charging speeds in daily use. Luckily most have stopped that shit, probably realizing there's a reason most people want good range, and this is one of them. Also charging at home/destination cost way less than using a fast charger, and it's better for battery life too.
Yeah EVs seem almost non-viable if you live in an apartment complex right now, which is a shame. At least where I am
I live in an apartment and can neither charge at home nor at work. I just charge when I go grocery shopping. It's absolutely viable.
You can literally have just a simple wall plug and charge a car. It doesn't need to be a fitted wall-mounted charging box. Yes, it is much slower and takes 24+ hours to charge the car completely but most people don't actually use much of their battery per day anyway so if you plug in every night when you get home, you're not going to have a problem for the majority of the time. And those are a very cheap socket run that an apartment's body corporate could/should install.
Not OP, but nearly every apartment complex I've ever been to has absolutely 0 electricity to a surface lot, and very limited/restricted access in a garage. And no apartment managers are going to change that unless there's money to be made from it.
Fortunately, newer buildings are now including some public charging stations, presumably getting a portion of the sales.
Theres no external outlets just out in the parking lot in my complex. You'd have to run an extension cord out a door or window all the time, which would leave them cracked, and I live on the third floor
More progress really needs to be made on infrastructure for a lot, probably the majority of apartment complex dwellers
All doable.. we can route power easily enough to about any place on this planet
I have been an EV owner since 2018 and I have never had a “level 2” charger installed. I’ve been fine with just plugging into the wall. Now, granted, my cars have been 80-125 mile range vehicles. But it’s been fine.
When we made laws for handicap parking, there was handicap parking everywhere, overnight.
Most EVs charge at home doesn’t mean it’s not cheaper than fossil fuel even using the charger down the road. As for convenience, using a public charger is like pouring fuel in at the petrol station.
Speed doesn’t matter as much if you’re going to be parked for half the day or overnight.
The apartment complex and workplace chargers I've seen all limit how long you're allowed to leave your car parked at them. I suppose speed doesn't matter in the sense that having to move your car 20 minutes later isn't much less annoying than having to move it 4 hours later. Still, I wouldn't want an EV without my own garage even if I never went on road trips. It seems like a pain.
Considering how inexpensive it is to put in a 30A, 50A, or 60A circuit, and how modern L2 chargers can both downrate dynamically and be activated with simple apps or cards, this is not a difficult problem to solve.
Then you have where my apt had another company put in and manage the charges but they charge 15 cents more a kw then the fast charger around the corner.
I don't mind sitting every so often in the morning drinking some tea while charging but it would be nice if it's faster
Considering how inexpensive it is to put in a 30A, 50A, or 60A circuit
I have a 50A circuit that i just installed. And previously installed a 30A circuit at my last house. It's not inexpensive. A 50A breaker and 30 feet of 6/2 Romex with ground costs $240. Then add in a 40A capable Grizzl-E Classic for another $299 and you're on your way to $600.
If you're like me, you also buy conduit for the wiring in the garage to keep it dry/protected and a receptacle rather than hardwiring to allow for a little more flexibility.
Easy, yes. Cheap, no.
That’s a matter of location I guess. Here you sometimes have to pay a small extra fee to keep it there the whole day. But that may be also because there are plenty of public chargers around
Amen. The building I work at, where there's roughly about 100 people each day, including police department and local part of ministry's office has exactly ONE charging point built last year. One.
My EV's getting older now, but it'll still do 400+km if I charge it fully overnight. If we're doing a road trip it's time for a burger and to stretch ones legs when it's getting low anyways. Eat my food, get some rest and 20-30 minutes later I'm ready to go again.
I was sceptical before buying it, but I will never buy a gas car again. And I work in oil and gas
It's for all the people that wont accept that must be able to charge to full at any moment regardless that they usually wont have to because its already full from being charged at home/work etc
Even disregarding the fact that reliable electric cars are much more expensive secondhand than comparable ICE cars, there's still a significant economic barrier to owning one. It's significantly more difficult to effectively own an electric car if you have an apartment, or live in a house that only has street side parking, or live in a house that has a landlord that's not willing to install an expensive electric car charger, which covers the vast majority of lower income housing.
that's not always true, its free at my workplace I just need to unplug every two hours. They do that so people don't sit on the chargers all day. I know people without home charging, for them its 6kw charging at work, public parking and a visit to a fast charger when needed. They say its still cheaper than gas.
- Depends on your utility plan and if it’s time based or not. The chargers at work are the same price from 7:00 to 22:00.
- Yes
- Depends on the office. Plenty of office parks don’t require you to move.
- I’ve avoided (as best I can) the “energy providers” that charge and extra fee just to charge. Obligatory fuck ChargePoint.
I can’t charge at home (fuck you NJ) but still have two EVs that I take to the single public charger (limited to 2 hours) nearby because fuck gas powered cars.
Maybe next time don’t make sweeping generalizations about things you personally haven’t experienced.
Industrial electricity prices are a lot more complicated than residential. You basically get the price set by your highest demand/lowest supply. Meaning you charging your car could hike their rates.
Answers "possibly" or just straight up "yes" to literally every point, and then criticizes them for generalizing.
While EVs are 100% the way to go, acting as though the very real problems and drawbacks faced by real people don't exist is disingenuous and just gives anti-EV people more ammo.
"Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away"
WTF? This is exactly how I have refeuled every single time I have ever gotten gas. If I could pay a little extra for a pit stop style refuel I would. Who wants to linger around gas fumes, processed "food" , and energy drink boner pills?
A big draw of EV for me is that 99% I don't need to stop anywhere to recharge. If I do though I want it to be as fast as possible.
We bought an EV and it took a few trips for it to click that you don’t need to charge to 100% or even 90%. Hook it up, hit the restroom, buy a latte, then get back on the road with 50% charge.
You only need enough to get to wherever your longer parking+charge is going to be.
We also figure out the range anxiety. Getting down to 10% isn’t a big deal, especially if that last stop is going to get you back to full charge. Our EV doesn’t even have that great of range to start with.
also charging 10-50% is a LOT faster than charging 50-90%.
100%. The time I spend at a fucking gas station is the time the gas is flowing + the overhead of tapping the card. Plus, if there are ads and the mute button doesn’t instantly work, leaving a 1 star review.
Ads at pumps are fairly common in the US. They been around since 2019 if not earlier.
I think he meant this as where would someone live that it would be an if. Ads are pervasive
In Latvia there is gas station chain that has no workers. Fully self service. They have screens that run ads.
AFAIK, in some countries some stations that have workers and where you have to go to pay at cash register also have pumps with screens and play ads on them. Some even have pistols with screens for the same purpose. Yep.
They live in the US. You have to watch ads to take a shit.
I think it means specifically in the context of long road trips, the kind where everyone gets out to stretch their legs and take a piss while stopping for gas. On the other hand, I was under the impression that EVs simply didn't have the range for such activities, so IDK.
Modern EVs have hundreds of miles of range and can easily do road trips as long as there are chargers along the route. I haven't done any cross county trips but I have driven from NorCal to SoCal and eastern to western CO without issue.
4 hours driving and a half hour charge while doing a biobreak is perfectly doable these days. You can keep that up a long time. Personally not a fan of that long a stretch and we're doing more 2 hours driving and a break.
I was under the impression that EVs simply didn't have the range for such activities, so IDK.
Maybe 10 years ago that was true, but now ranges and charging speeds have gotten much better. The infrastructure of gas stations is still better for easy road trips without pre-planning though.
Where I live (Denmark) there is no need for planning your charging, there are charging stations everywhere. I think the same is true for Sweden and Norway.
It's only a matter of when the infrastructure is established enough. Scandinavia is among the more developed regions with regard to charging infrastructure, but it will be the same in other countries soon.
The same in Finland
The US doesn't do infrastructure. Bridges barely work.
Sure, maybe a few min with a family I guess. But if traveling alone it's still quick stretch, in and out of restroom in less than 5min.
In Europe I'll grab an espresso, add an extra min I guess for that.
I know some families will spend maybe 20-30min at such places, but ideally that's a choice not forced by charging time. Doesn't need to happen tomorrow, but I do think fast charging is a desirable goal.
Mine, an MG4, has 400 km. Enough to make you need a stop. And it gets from 20% to 80% in half an hour or less (50KWh+)
Don't forget the unmutable unskippable multimedia advertisements on the fuel pump!
(Yes, I know some of them are allegedly mutable, but I have yet to find one.)
You can charge at gas stations, but why would you? Around here, there are cafes, restaurants, and supermarkets with fast chargers.
And why would a Walmart be any better? Around here, no charging stations have a restaurant neaby. I just looked up all the charging stations near me and none of them have stores I would want to stop at on a road trip
The point is that when every place you travel has a charging station you no longer need to ever stop for gas or to charge. Every stop just includes the charge. We can never do that with gasoline.
When I had an ICE car, it was exactly the same. With our BEV however, I don't generally need to charge "on the way" as I can start each morning fully charged, and have more than enough battery for a full day.
It's only on longer trips we need to charge, and on those we can easily combine charge and a short break.
You are missing out on delicious sushi.
It damn well better have caffeinated cream cheese in it or I'll be disappointed.
Just sounds like a CEO who doesn't want to invest anything in upgrading anything.
Of course I want to be out of there quicker. I'm driving to somewhere and it sure as shit is not to a charging point.
All Americans should travel to Italy and have a meal at an Autogrill on the highways. It's likely the best food you ever eat. US highway stops are all hot garbage.
The Autogrills are absolutely great for a motorway stop but you're over selling them just a tad. After all, you're now comparing them to restaurants in the Italian cities at either end too.
Anyway, we've got 150+ kW chargers at most stops now, at least in the north. And signage for stops indicates if there are chargers. An espresso and toilet break is usually enough to keep going.
I mean, I see no problem with that if they want but the fact remains I don't hang out. Same as all that stupid Bucees garbage- I have no idea what kind of people are going in and shopping around a department store full of crap.
I've never understood the devotion or novelty of it all.
So yeah, that might work for some but yeah, I'd MUCH rather have as quick a charge as possible (and will go to the ones that can get me out quicker) and it seems judging by this thread I'm not alone.
ITT: Lots of people dont realize how infrequently you actually stop at a charger if you have charging at home or work.
Since they installed chargers at my workplace roughly one year ago, I have stopped exactly 3 times to charge in a public charger:
First was when we had an issue with chargers the day before I was going on a 2 weeks holiday out of town.
Second was when I arrived to my holiday destination.
Third was the day we were going back home from the holiday destination after two weeks.
That's about it in a whole year.
Yup. I’ve had an EV for 6 years (in Texas of all places) and have only used a public charger a handful of times, and mostly because of the novelty to see what DC charging is like. I’ve only needed it one time on a long distance trip. So 6 years, 1 DC fast charge.
Most EV owners do not realize that most car drivers live in apartment buildings and have no chance to charge their car at home.
I live in a building that was built in 2023 and has no underground charging stations. In fact no stations around the building either. In Germany. Berlin. Yep
Most trips don't eat 100%, if your commute eats 10-40% of your battery 5% an hour on 110v at home is just fine.
Probably a lot better for the batteries too.
I do 120v / 12A charging at home and an overnight charge exceeds my daily commute. But, yes, a 240v / 25A charger is much faster and an overnight charge in them can cover a daily commute I would find punishingly long.
The reality: “Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away,” Cutler said.
Say what? Outside of a long road trip, that's very much what I do every time. I haven't been into the store at my gas station in years. I'm hardly alone, I see plenty of other people fill up and leave.
The "charging problem" is most completely addressed by doing less driving. Obviously.
In the context of EVs, your daily grind refueling is a scenario that doesn't really exist - and shouldn't exist. Your weekly trip to the gas station should be replaced almost entirely with AC charging, either at home or at work. DC fast charging should only be used when you are driving an extended amount in a single day. And if you've been driving 200 miles that day, you probably need some food and a restroom.
Coincidentally, it solves one of the biggest (and least explainable) gaps on fast charging. If you make your regular rest/food stops the same thing as your charging stops, then you'll spend very little extra time charging on a road trip. It's always been weird to me that fast chargers have traditionally been nowhere near amenities like food and restrooms.
We just came back from a trip. Started with below 50 percent, first stop was a nice caffee for a second breakfast. Within 20 minutes, charge went up to 80, giving uns around 400 km range. The car was full before we even finished.
The planing simply changed. Instead of rushing through a gas stop, we prefer a route with places for a nice break. Or, in a pinch, nearly every McDonald's now has a row of quick chargers.
It is becoming a non-issue.
Went to Italy..wanted to grab an Espresso.. the car was at 80 percent before I even manage to get the cup in last my hand...
Yeah, that statement makes little sense in context of ICE, but the point does kinda work for EV. Ideally, outside of road trips, you wouldn't go to designated charging areas, but just charge where you're going anyway. I usually charge at a supermarket
Yeah, same for me. But it is true that it doesn't necessarily apply when charging at home, overnight.
Yeah that sentence was bonkers. Like that’s exactly what most people do haha
Obviously you made the mistake of not being born wealthy. If you had just been born wealthy, you would realize that driving long distance is something you very rarely do, or when you can't find a trustworthy peasant to ship/drive your vehicle to/from your summer home.
The reality: “Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away,” Cutler said.
I, in fact, do exactly that. I pull up in front of the pump, get out, stick my card in, fill up, and leave. It's been over ten years since I went inside the store at a gas station, there's nothing in there I want to buy.
However, needing to spend half an hour recharging if I were on a road trip would be fine, because on a road trip I would stop for a break from driving in any case. But, I almost never go on road trips, and 99.9% of my trips around town would be well within one charge, which I could do at home.
So, while I agree that charging doesn't need to be as fast as gas, it's not because of his stated reason.
Yes. Because with an EV you live at the gas station.
People need to stop thinking about EVs like cars that need to be fueled. They're more like phones that need to be charged.
Gasoline cars need to accept grass if they are ever to be a viable replacement for a horse. Like, what if you're far from a gas station but there's a meadow right there?
Only fringe enthusiasts can own a gasoline car that doesn't have a biofuel fermenter attached.
Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away
This almost reads as satire. Like this has to be a joke, right? No way this guy can really be this stupid (or out of touch), right?
owning a BYD EV here in Australia, 80% of my charging is at home, just plug in to a wall socket powered by mostly solar from my roof. 15% is destination charging eg when buying groceries, plug in, shop, unplug and go and only 5% is charging on a road trip.
I love how people looking into getting a car will go crazy over range. All the while they have not driven more than 100k in a single day in the last 5 years.
100k km is physically impossible to drive in a day, maybe you mean "in a single year"?
If you mean 100k meters (not sure why you just wouldn't use km as an unit then), I have a few 200 km days a week, but the actual range anxiety comes from the fact that in the winter an EV loses a ton of range and if I need to use a public charger, I might as well just drive my current car instead of paying 15x as much to get into an used EV, since public charging is almost as expensive as diesel fuel.
Depends on the gas prices, but yeah, even in the US often 'fast chargers' would be equivalent or even more expensive than gas.
If you take fast chargers with the milage most EVs get (roughly 2mi/kwh), the per kwh price needs to be roughly $0.35/kwh or lower for electric to be cheaper (home rates essentially across the US are lower than this), but fast chargers often climb to $0.45-0.55/kwh.
Every single parking spot should have a charger. It will happen some day.
And then some douchey trillionaire will be there to steal that infrastructure making it completely unaffordable, ensuring no one can use it.
We don't, I charge while shopping most of the time.
Longer trips in EVs require one small reframing, at least when compared to how we used to do longer trips before.
In longer trips with an ICE, we would have a meal before the trip, then drive until the destination, and have a meal when arriving.
With an EV, you should plan to have a meal on the road, and charge while you eat.
I've had a few experiences with this recently on a 300k trip we do fairly regularly. We do it in an older EV with comparatively poor range, but still we get away with making one stop to eat and charge.
Everything is a tradeoff. At this point there are more valuable things to be spending money on than making chargers that are as fast as possible. Not all cars can charge at 500+kWhs many cannot even do 100kWhs. IMO better to spend money upgrading all the slow 7-50kWh chargers. As well as putting in more slow charging near residents. Kerb charging for people that dont have a driveway in cities or chargers for those living in flats. That would serve people better then spending more money on something very few can actually benefit from.
I think for my commute I would prefer a battery chemistry that needed slower charging, if it was cheaper or lasted longer or was safer, or lighter, or whatever. But I think there will always be use cases where it's worth maximizing uptime, like long-haul driving.
I wonder if trucking will evolve to do tractor swaps, where rigs coming into charge up will hand off trailers to fresh tractors. That way the cargo doesn't have to take up space in the charging lot or whatever. Or they might do battery swaps. I imagine for above some threshold of cost/minute downtime, the hardware for doing swaps will be worth the extra cost.
In most jurisdictions, trucks are required by law to stop for the driver to rest every 5 hours or so. You can just charge the vehicle then.
oh yeah, duh. the vehicle's uptime is bound by its operator's.
But drivers swap on the road and don't stop.
Nio has had battery hot swapping systems for years, but that's for progressive countries.
It infuriating how nice an actual non-fossil-fuel infrastructure could be, if only we had a government that would build it. The Nio battery swaps are cool, I want to convert one of my old tractors to a similar setup, except I'll probably just put a pallet of batteries on top of the engine compartment and forklift them on and off the tractor. But similar idea: let the batteries charge slowly on a rack while the tractor and implements only see a few minutes of downtime. But until we get our political shit together I'm stuck making my own with spit and baling wire.
but the fast chargers do need more infrastructure that takes more space and cost, when having MORE slower, cheaper, easier to install AC chargers everywhere will help just as much
BYD did a 1.5MW and Geely did a 2.2MW charging now, but they faced the one big issue with such charging speed : building a facility for it. It requires a tremendous amount of power so it cannot pull only from the grid, so it can't be deployed in most place. That's the challenge they're facing, and even Geely said the speed has peaked. Practically there's no need to have those charging speed, more charger is much more beneficial than super fast charging.
They face a new issue: morons.
We have been wanting an EV (something other than a Swasticar) for our next vehicle and think we could deal with the extended charging times required during a long drive or trip, but we ended up ruling it out.
For us the big problem is the difficulty getting parts and service. Service for the models we looked at is only available at dealers (and only some dealers), and parts are regularly not in dealer stock.
We really don't want to risk taking a cross-county trip and having the car break down 200 miles from the nearest mechanic. With the additional real possibility of having to wait weeks (or months) for a part, an EV is not an appealing choice for us, at least not yet.
What are you expecting to break down? A modern internal combustion engine plus continuously variable transmission is one the world's most complex pieces of engineering in common use today.
An electric drive system is trivial in comparison.
This is the truth. 4 years with a Chevy Bolt EUV and so far I have only replaced the tires and windshield wiper fluid. As someone who worked on several ICE cars for 2 decades, it's kind of a dream to have so few things that can go wrong. The number of moving parts in a EV is a couple magnitudes less than an ICE car.
People don't account for the time I am not spending at gas stations sniffing fumes every week or getting oil changes. The handfull of times I don't charge at home are a fraction of time spent dealing with ICE routine maintenance.
The only thing I am slightly worried about is that my car has 3 coolant loops, which is one of my least favorite repairs.
Nope, manual says 5 years, 50,000 miles.
Appreciate it. Will check schedule.
I'd be worried about some of the electronics, modern cars, electric or not, tend to be overcomplicated with tablets and server connections and what have you. I might also worry about getting into an accident.
Hate to tell you this, but cars have been like this for about 15 years now.
Been a long time since ol Joe at the gas station could fill the tank and tune your carburetor with a screwdriver.
Yes but other cars can be repaired at any mechanic rather than just at a dealer, which is the issue we were talking about above.
I am well aware of the computerization of cars, how carburetors have not been a thing for more like 30 years, and how generally electric vehicles are better than combustion ones but both are worse than public transit.
if you get into an accident on a road trip you’re fucked regardless of what car you have.
You would think that, but Hyundai EVs are popping ICCU fuses and Tesla motors all leak coolant from the seals. There is a Tesla that went 3 million kms. Only needed 4 battery swaps, but it needed 14 motors. Coolant leaks will be problem at higher mileage.
Yet EVs are much less reliable than many ICE vehicles. The control module is one of the weak points. When it fails the car is down until it's replaced.
No
Huge Study Shows EVs More Reliable Than ICE Cars With One Surprising Common Issue
EVs averaged 4.2 breakdowns per 1,000 vehicles, while similarly aged combustion models more than doubled that rate
Sorry for lazy copy/paste. 1st search result in 'reliability EV ice'
Case in point: https://www.reddit.com/...
The GM's EV reliability is terrible. BMW, Lexus and Tesla are much better, but not looking for a luxury vehicle or a Tesla.
I figure I'd upset some EV fanboys with a dose of reality, but holy shit, you're REALLY upset. Take your meds already.
I am sure you can show us real word data
As opposed to your ECU?
You're just making shit up
Particularly when there's less vibration, heat etc. to fuck with electronics
You're pushing an agenda here
Why?
Right. My "agenda" is simple. I would prefer an EV, but when in the middle of bumfuck Nevada with no cell service when it's 110F out, I don't want a car that can only be fixed at a dealer and that may require a 3 week wait for parts.
My biggest problem with my EV is that I was stupid to get the service pack as it never has any service needs. Breaks last twice as long. No oil changes. No critical fluids other than wiper fluid. The easiest to fail part is the 12v battery which is standard for any car. If something hard to replace fails it is going to be a sensor and I've had that happen on a gas car before and no one had it in stock because no one stocks random sensors.
call your dealer and ask if you can cancel the service plan for a prorated refund.
The service pack better include tires replacement, and then it would make sense for people who drive a lot on roads that destroy tires.
You guys don't have insurance? If my car breaks down away from home, I can get a rental brought to me so I can continue my trip while my car gets fixed.
You don't do road trips much? Trips don't necessarily go to the same location twice and it can take days of driving to circle back.
Why circle back? My insurance would give me a car to continue my holiday.
How often are you taking cross country trips on the spur of the moment? Take the advantages of owning an EV and then just rent something for the trip.
Often enough and the trips can be for a few weeks. Checked car rental rates recently and a small SUV had a nearly $2K base rate.
Sounds like a plug in hybrid would be right up your alley. Many of the benefits of an electric vehicle (regen braking and the ability to charge at home, foremost) while still being able to fill up instantly using gas. Unfortunately you lose out on the basically-no-maintenance-required part of a pure EV, but frequent road trips are basically the ideal use case for a PHEV.
That's exactly what we're looking at.
I think the reason they don’t have spare parts is because the motors are less complicated and, in theory, will need fewer replacement parts. An ICE motor is like 10,000+ moving parts, an electric motor is like 300 moving parts. They’re an order of magnitude less complicated.
But there are still several ways the software or high voltage system can fault leaving people stranded and that usually isint a roadside fix or even a nearest auto part store run (yet)
Hyundai ICCU failures, for example.
LOL. Tesla parts shortages are because they break so frequently. You can't drive a car without working door handles.
The only time i seen a new EV breakdown is due to...that 12v battery. It usually happened around 2 or 3 years down. Other than that i still haven't seens any EV breakdown yet.
Also for the part availability, logically newly released car tend to not having part laying around because logically no one will expect a new car to break down and waste a storage space for it, so no matter what car you buy it will be the same. But if a new car(released only 2 to 3 years) have parts widely available, then logically speaking, is that car still reliable?
EVs can break down. It tends to be less frequent but more expensive. I just had a bigger repair on mine. I'll be crunching the numbers one of these days to see what the average cost of repairs has been.
No argument on that, just that it be strange to worry about replacement part for an EV that isn't 5 or more years old. You will make as less sense if apply that to ICEV too, no new vehicle are expected to breakdown. Whatever module that might break on an ICEV will break on an EV too, but that's not enough to dismiss the point that EV is much more reliable solely because there's significantly less part required to run it.
You won't find any readily available part for a newly launched EV the same way you won't find any readily available part for a newly launched ICEV.
For context, parts are as available as they need to be. IOW, parts are in stock when they are frequently needed. If a part is rarely needed, it won't be in stock locally.
If you choose a common EV model, like GM, Hyundai, or even Tesla, you are extremely unlikely to suddenly need extensive service. Dealers (with EV mechanics) are common, with multiple in every major city, and a parts network that can have anything shipped overnight.
Better not drive a car at all....
Yep
They're looking for problems to justify their position
"And while China’s getting there, an executive in the U.S. aren’t so convinced that’s true."
Why does this sentence bother me so much?
From someone that actually uses an EV: I don't even have a charger at home. I charge twice a month on a station that takes around 30~45m a session to 90%. You go for a nice coffee or light meal and it is charged when you come back.
I would like it to be as fast as gas. But, yeah, if you can walk from the charger to a restroom and maybe grab some food, I really don't care if it take 15-30 minutes to get back up to 80%.
I currently own a Volt and usually charge at home. My last road-trip OK->IA (and back a week later), I found it hard to find compatible charging stations so much so that I barely used them. On the way back, I did go out of my way to find one -- the first one had no facilities at all (it was a dealer parking lot at the corner of two 5-lane stroads with no crosswalk signals), the second one was inaccessible behind a locked gate, the third one several blocks away from any facilities but close enough to walk to one restaurant.
I still plan to get an EV when I finally have to replace the Volt, but I gotta say the charging situation away from home is pretty bleak, IME. Maybe it's better in different parts of the country. It is almost certainly better on DC charging; I found a few convenience store / gas station / fast food combination buildings that also had DC charging that I would have used if I could. (Volt only has AC charging.)
This is pure cope from a nation that is a long way behind the rest of the world on EV technology. I've done some very long road journeys, 900+ km in a day, and having an EV would likely have added at least an hour to that day, even more if I was towing.
The reality: “Nobody stops to fuel their vehicle taking gasoline, gets out, rushes as fast as possible, puts as much fuel in the car as possible, and gets back in the car and drives away,” Cutler said.
This is exactly how I go about my business at a fuel stop. Maybe do a few stretches and check everything on the roof isn't working it's way loose, but once the pump clicks off, I'm goneburgers.
I’ve done some very long road journeys, 900+ km in a day, and having an EV would likely have added at least an hour to that day, even more if I was towing.
You do realize that 99.999% of people don't drive anything like that on a regular basis right?
As someone who's had an EV exclusively since 2018, several makes and models, and not near a massive metro area like NYC, LA, etc. where infrastructure has been extremely built out for a long time. I've made long trips, and the total time difference across an entire day of driving, accounting for stops for meals, bathrooms, etc. that would have happened anyway with an ICE vehicle, the trips were maybe total an hour and a half longer spread across that day.
Does it take more time on long distance trips? Yes. Does it actually matter when those long trips are usually going to be entire day or even multi-day trips anyway? Not really.
I've found non-EV owners usually still think of charging the car like filling it with gas, full every time with all the time it takes to fully charge. But you almost never fully charge the vehicle while on a trip, only at the beginning and maybe end. The batteries charge significantly faster when at a lower state of charge, so most travel happens in the middle between 20-70%. It's faster to charge twice for 15 minutes at a fast rate, than taking an hour or more to fully charge each time. And the built-in navigation and charging systems take that into account along your route to optimize those stops to take advantage of those higher charging speeds. I also have noticed that non-EV owners significantly underestimate the amount of time they take when stopping to get gas, use the restroom, etc. The real world time difference between those quick charges where you can let the car sit unattended while you use the restroom, grab snacks, etc. versus having to stand at the pump and then do those things, is much closer than most people tend to think.
This is a really common, and really stupid argument people make.
Someone will say "an EV isn't right for me because I do X"
And someone will almost certainly say something stupid that starts with the word "statistically"
I don't give a fuck about what people do statistically, I care about what I do with my vehicle. And I'm not going to buy a vehicle that does 95% of what my current vehicle does.
I'm just pointing out that the common assumptions about EVs based on reading other online comments from non-EV owners may not be accurate.
You might not have those assumptions, but from my experience talking to thousands of people over the last nearly decade is that very few non-owners have it accurately. Most people think they use their cars much differently than they actually do, and a lot of people get stuck on the one or two times they travel long distance each year for a week or two, and ignore the other 50 weeks where they're paying out the nose for gas and maintenance when an EV would make more sense for their daily driver, and then just renting something for the trip.
Does it take more time on long distance trips? Yes. Does it actually matter when those long trips are usually going to be entire day or even multi-day trips anyway? Not really.
Yes, but when in the rare cases when you need to make 900km+ in a day, you really need that ability. 99% simply isn't enough because that 1% is really important.
Time on a road trip is way more important than time in regular drives. I don't mind being 30min late getting back home from work, that happens all the time from traffic, but 30min late on a roadtrip means you're missing daylight, or an appointment, or that restaurant you really wanted to try is closed.
Yes, but when in the rare cases when you need to make 900km+ in a day, you really need that ability
So rent a gas car.
This stupid argument is why grown men drive huge pickups with pristine beds to office jobs, in case they need to move a couch every 7 years.
You can rent a van or pickup for $20.
I'm amazed no one has pulled the TOW MY BOAT card yet in this thread.
You cannot be serious.
I'm not buying a car I can't take on holiday with me, that's just ridiculous. Especially considering it would spend most of the trip sitting around at a campsite.
EV cope, honestly.
I've got shit to do, especially when I'm doing that type of distance.
How is me not wanting to fart around for half an hour every time I stop putting you at risk?
The thing a lot of these people dknt understand is that not everyone has a garage where they can charge a car. I love in an apartment, where am I suppssdd to charge an EV? My parking space is too far away from my parking spot to charge, and I'm positive that my complex would never pay to add charging spots connected to each apartments meter.
Even if they did, I wouldnt trust my neighbors to plug tjeir EV into my charger. This alsomapploesmto people in houses that don't have a garage. An I supossed to run an extension cord to the street st night so that anyone driving by can llut into my electricity?
I mean. That's kinda the root cause of Range Anxiety.
Even if it was double the time to charge when compared to filling a petrol car. That would go a long way.
If the charge is 6x longer than filling, then there need to be 6x the charging points. Stations will need to have a much larger footprint which isn’t always possible in urban environments. Then the occupants are stuck there for 30min so there better be adequate security otherwise it’ll be ground zero for crime.
I prefer the idea of plug it on and go get lunch and take a piss and have a stretch, rather than have to stand there with it for a few mins and then do all that other stuff.
Most of the time, they don't need to be anywhere near as fast as gas (most, maybe even nearly all, people have or can have a way to charge at home). But there's lots of people that don't do long stops on their trips and just want to stop, fuel up, and go. The EV can be a bit slower, but anything over about 15 min is going to be a showstopper for alot of people.
I remember one of the arguments against EV's were that "there's so few chargers compared to gas".
And then you realise that chargers are literally at homes, workplaces, parking lots and ALSO at gas stations.
Which makes speed less important. The headline is spot on.
And then you realise that chargers are literally at homes, workplaces, parking lots and ALSO at gas stations.
Perhaps if you were in an apartment complex without access to a home charger, but many complexes have added EV charging as amenities. Most people don't drive very far on a daily basis, well within the range of most EVs. Heck, I make a 50 mile round trip commute to the other end of the city and I only charge once a week at home usually, unless I'm doing a bunch of other stuff outside work.
Charging at home means you almost never need to charge anywhere else unless you're on a trip, that most people do only once or twice a year. And for trips, charging stations along highways were some of the first to be installed.
Once enough EVs are common, people can lobby their municipality to make EV chargers code at apartment complexes. We could make handicapped parking appear overnight, we can do this.
The few times I've charged an electric rental car, I had to go pee and buy snacks or go for lunch anyway.. in my opinion a longer break of a few minutes from driving is healthy and safer anyway.
Depending on the state, I'd much rather have a bio break, snack, and stretch my legs at a rest stop. Picnic benches, shade and a view, even a pet relief area. Many have water stations to refill bottles. Does require I've stocked the car with meals and snacks. In general filling stations lack the nicer amenities, most just suitable for gas and go.
Source: Just did 6835.5 miles encompassing 16 states.
Edit: Dyscalculia
Yeah I fucking do. I'm at Costco of BJs just long enough to fill the tank, and then I'm off.
In three years of ownership, I have used a fast charger once. A sudden unplanned road trip when I had let my charge get low.
Charging at home is so much nicer than a gas station. It is worth the rate longer fast charging on a road trip to usually not to go to a gas station at all.
If I lived in an apartment, I think I might be pretty frustrated though.
Lets say you have a 300mi range EV. that sounds great, until you realize you can't actually use it all.
We like to save the bottom 20% for emergencies and battery longevity, and fast charging is too slow above 80% to be worth it, so effectively, on a road trip. only the 20%-80% range is usable. Your 300mi+ range just turned into 180mi of usable range. And then factor in ~10% battery degradation over time, or range reduction in winter conditions, and you could easily have as little as 150mi of actual usable range between charging stops. And that's assuming the charging stations are perfectly spaced apart.
That's only a little more than 2 hours at highway speeds. And that's not along time to be driving, even for a single person. In gas cars, we will regularly do 3-4 hours without stopping at all. And if we do stop for a break, it's rarely at gas stations or places with charging stations. Those are typically awful places to spend the limited amount of time you have on a trip.
In practice, the charging interval is far, far less than the ideal 300mi and far more frequent.
Highway Hypnosis/ Road Hypnosis is real. In most driving manuals it's recommend to take breaks and stretch.
Also.. you can do this with most EVs already
US people will only get out of their cars under threat, apparently.
I used to think this way until I actually drove an EV long distance. This tech is mature and useful for road trips. Most people aren’t willing to drive 12+ hour days anyway and that’s the only real way to get a time advantage out of a gas car.
I think the issue is like trucks in the USA. People buy what they think they need not what they actually they need and then underutilize it.
Speaking from embarassed experience, I live in the USA thought it would be OK for me to get a pickup truck because I literally do work in the trades. Even I underutilize it tbh, and I'm thinking about selling it. I mostly just drive it to and from work like any other car, and then move things around in the company vans, lol.
You don't need it 99% of the time, but in that 1% when you need it, you really need it. 99% simply isn’t enough because that 1% is really important.
Time on a road trip is way more important than time in regular drives. I don’t mind being 30min late getting back home from work, that happens all the time from traffic, but 30min late on a roadtrip means you’re missing daylight, or an appointment, or that restaurant you really wanted to try is closed. These are not imaginary hypotheticals, all of these situations have regularly happened to me even with gas cars.
And that 1% of the time is where renting is more effective perhaps even moreso with increasing gas costs
This is fascinating to read because it's completely the opposite of how I think.
If I was regularly 30 min late coming home from work I would scream. Nobody has time for that!
30 min late on vacation? Who cares? You can't even plan any trip with that tight of tolerances, anyway. Too many factors beyond your control could delay you by more than 30 minutes, easily. As you say, this type of thing can happen even with gas cars, or trains, planes, boats, bicycles, etc.
I own an EV
I have never once paid to charge it at a charging station
If I want to go on a long trip like you suggest for a few days, I can hire a vehicle (hybrid, obvs) and still be so far ahead financially that I wouldn't notice it
Oh yeah, I regularly drive 14+ hour days myself. This is why I know that most people won't, because most people act like I'm fucking crazy. Which is why I think most of them would do fine with an EV
I used to believe the EV evangelists until I tried to drive EV on a road trip. I will never do it again. Why can't anybody just admit that there are real downsides which sometimes become a deal breaker?
I guess different people work differently. I'm speaking from my direct experience; I was cynical as hell until I actually tried it, and it really wasn't as bad as I expected.
Would I prefer an ICE car for a long distance road trip? Yes. Can I take an EV on a road trip and have a good time? Also yes. Was the EV cheaper than taking an ICE car an equivalent distance? Also yes.
Yes. Can I take an EV on a road trip and have a good time?
I mean, I get it, it's not the end of the world. But given the choice, I still would never choose an EV over gas on long road trips. The difference is large enough that it matters. Trips are the time when I have the least tolerance for hassle, and even small inconveniences add up really fast.
Except nmc batteries have no issue with being below 20 or above 80 percent soc, they have an issue with staying outside those values for longer periods of time. That's why people say you shouldn't charge above 80% in your day to day driving, because you'll usually charge it to 100% and then just have the car parked in your driveway for hours with a full battery. When you're on a road trip, you can absolutely use the bottom 20% of your battery as you'll be charging it up immediately. You can also charge it up to 100% before starting your road trip with next to no effects on the battery for the same reasons.
So, yes, there's obviously degradation for older cars and there's the obvious effect of batteries charging slower the more charged they are, so I'll give you that you won't fully charge your car during a road (if you don't have kids, I guess, as ours will absolutely drag out the break long enough to have the car sitting at 100%), but at the end of the day, the effects aren't nearly as terrible as you describe, as you'd be at about 90% range for the first episode of the trip and about 80% for consecutive ones.
Regardless of degradation issues, I'm still not willing to go below 20% except for emergencies. One wrong exit on a long stretch of highway and you could be out of range for the next charging station. Yes, this has actually happened to me.
20% is around 100km range, depending on your battery etc. of course. I try not to arrive at a charger with no range left, but even going to the next one shouldn't ever be more than 20 km unless you live in antarctica... 100km is excessive.
The usable range is 10%-100%. Nobody starts an EV road trip with much less than 100%. Though you may consider cutting a mid trip fast charge somewhere around 90%. Usually for me that’s because I see that I can get to my destination without going up to 100%
Charging stations will eventually be spaced at close enough distances that you don’t have to think about where to stop. In a mature EV market there’s generally many more EV chargers than gas stations along a given route.
And if we do stop for a break, it's rarely at gas stations
I’m not sure I’ve ever stopped at a gas station to fast charge. I stop at roadside McDonalds (we have kids), cafes, supermarkets (last stop before a trip to a cabin), etc.
How, in this day and age, could you not be aware that fast chargers are put up in more diverse places than gas stations? They’re not stinky. They don’t need to be separate from the businesses where car drivers want to spend their time.
I’ve stopped at a fast charger at a small cafe in the middle of nowhere on the top of a mountain, you could take a wonderful hike there while your car charges. You do know you can walk away from the car while it’s charging… right?
we will regularly do 3-4 hours without stopping at all
My trip to my family cabin is around 3 hours. And the last 30min is through an actually snowy dirt road up a steep climb. And I still have 40% or so left. With skis in the roof. So get outta here with your arm chair expertise.
Incidentally I don’t have to fast charge on this trip at all since we have electricity at the cabin. Super slow but I can get at least 80% which is plenty to get back.
Anyone still bringing up winter in an EV conversation should be laughed out of the room now that Norway is at near 100% market share. And no, you can’t use “Norway is small” as an argument. Road trips are common here to start with, every other family has a cabin in the mountains. But Norway is also part of Schengen. The borders in EU/Schengen are open just like the US. The first post I saw on my EV car models Facebook group was a person planning a trip to Croatia.
McDonald's.. the bane of every EV driver :-)
I'm in the East Coast U.S. and with an adapter, we're basically at the effortless point now, especially for tesla drivers. There are still some tesla only spots that make it tough for CCS cars, but it just means that the pressure on CCS chargers is lower with most people choosing superchargers if available.
Add in the fuel crisis, and even the high price at Interstate fast chargers is cost competitive with regular unleaded mile for mile, and cheaper at the right stations.
Like Bebe's kids, Chargers don't die, they multiply.
Nobody starts an EV road trip with much less than 100%.
That's exactly the problem. Yes you start a trip with 100%, but that only happens at most once per day. What about in the middle? You willing to sit a fucking Walmart for 1hr to get to 100%? We're not talking about a trip where you drive 3hr from home to the destination. I'm talking about road trips where you go half way across the country and do 5+hr of driving in a day, across multiple days.
5+hr of driving in a day
5 hours of driving is nothing. This is what I'm saying, the daily time savings between gas and EV only makes a serious difference once you get to the 10-12 hours/day range, which most people are unwilling to do anyway, thus rendering it kind of a moot point.
Also, the longer distance you go, the less expensive the trip will be by EV. You don't have to remember to change your oil before you leave on a trip, and you don't have to worry about oil changes partway through very long trips.
You willing to sit a fucking Walmart for 1hr to get to 100%?
With the EV I was road trippin in it took like 30 minutes. I would use the Walmart bathroom, buy some candy, and read a book. I survived to tell the harrowing tale. I will say, big box store bathrooms are typically much cleaner than gas station bathrooms
you don't charge to 100% every time if you don't need to. you charge up to 80% or enough to get you to the next charger, whichever is lesser. Charging from 80-100% is gonna take as long or longer than charging from 5-80% in most EVs
That's exactly what I'm saying. You go to a supercharger an you don't reach 100%, you only get to 80%. That reduces your range. Reduced range is the main problem. Only reaching 80% is a problem.
I’ll be the first to say, if you regularly do multi-day 6+ road trips, staying at places with no over-night charging options, then maybe an EV is not for you.
But even among the people I know in the US, I don’t know of even one person doing this. I think the closest is my uncle driving Norway-Italy a few times. On the flip-side I’ve seen plenty of people writing online about multi-day EV cross continent trips in Europe. Even back when charging infrastructure was much worse.
A single 5-7 hour trip is not an issue in an EV. One or two half hour stops isn’t a big deal for most people. Nice to stretch the legs and get some coffee. You dont have to do all the charging in one stop you know. It makes more sense to stop at places you think it’s nice to take a break, and do a couple more of them instead.
Last trip I took across Norway (~5h) I took more breaks than I needed charging stops (needed just one). I stopped at a nice cafe at the top of a mountain crossing where I was surprised to see fast chargers even there, but I didn’t need a charge to get to my destination anyway.
Personally I’ve had one trip that would be hard with EV. Portland-SF if I remember correctly. ~10h. But I deeply regretted not splitting the trip over two days.
If road tripping is the primary purpose, buy a proper voltage car for the task and charging to 100% becomes a rare necessity, and takes less than an hour on the actual off chance it's necessary.
Who cares? I drive a BEV for 6 years now and charging definitely is a none issue.
Where did you get the 10 % degradation from? Long time studies show way less, even with older models
You will never get full range at cold temperatures.
Yeah, my Volt varies a bit, but after 7 years it has about 10% loss (51mi. -> 46mi.)
Range has always been less in winter, but not 40%. On a day that never gets above -4, I can still get 29mi. off the battery.
Refusing to use the bottom 20% of your 300 mile pack is astonishing to me.
I understand having some buffer in case you need to divert to an alternate charging location but most people in most parts of the US don't live or travel places where charging stations are THAT far apart.
And there is no danger to battery health with driving down to 5% or lower state of charge. You're SUPPOSED to go that low on long trips. The only potential impact to battery health is if you leave it parked at a super low or super high state of charge, and even then doing so for a day or two on rare occasions is not gonna be a problem. Furthermore most EVs already lock off a small portion of the pack's range specifically for battery longetivity so unless you're in a Tesla or are under a recall or something you shouldn't worry about this so much that you refuse to use the last twenty percent
Use your whole battery! It's there for you to
Not that crazy. 20% of 300mi is ~60mi which is slightly more than when the low fuel gauge lights up on most gas cars. And most people refuel gas cars long before that light comes up, when there's ~100mi of range left. Why is such behavior suddenly so crazy when you translate that to EVs? I'll grant you that it's unnecessary in most situations, but why is being a little more cautious than others about preventing a very inconvenient situation warrant the word "astonishing"?
Only last winter I was stuck in a snow storm due to traffic and road conditions in my EV. That route took an extra 10% off my battery than calculated due to running the heater. 10% is the bare minimum margin of safety I will ever accept, and I will not feel comfortable at all having only 10% buffer.
Also consider a gas car can be refueled with a can in desperate times, allowing you to get to the next gas station. EVs have no such equivalent. Best case, you're waiting for a tow. Running out of fuel in a gas car is inconvenient. Running out of battery with an EV is devastating. Considering the difference in consequences, it is well worth the extra caution.
only the 20%-80% range is usable. Your 300mi+ range just turned into 180mi of usable range.
but at the same time, charging 20%-80% is A LOT faster than charging 0-100%. a road trip plan optimized for time almost never plans charge stops above 80% for that reason. it’s better to stay in that charging sweet spot.
Also you do (or should) start trips at 100% charge.
Umm, there are no EVs you should be going 75mph for hours at a time in unless you want to trash your range.
Not sure if you have ever actually driven an EV, but typically in my 300mi range vehicle, I usually stop every 200 miles, roughly every 3 hours for charging, stop for 20 minutes and am back on my way. Sure, am I often a little slow than if I had gas? Yes, but that's ok, I also always arrive in my EV refreshed, have eaten, and not wore out.
Why? Most places in the US even recommend no more than 65mph for highway driving. And most gas vehicles are most efficient for gas usage between 55-60mph. There is a reason highway speed limits back during the 70s were lowered to 55 by Nixon. It also dropped vehicle fatality rate by miles driven in half.
All the arguments are like this. You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. Well of course if you can avoid all the downsides EVs would be perfect, but we don't live in that perfect world in your imagination where everything works and we always do what you think we should be doing. If EVs were as good as everybody says, you wouldn't have any trouble convincing people to use them. Why can't anybody just admit that there are real downsides which in some situations become a deal breaker?
I think the downsides are going to be mitigated soon. There are cars that get 400-600 miles of range. There are also new battery materials that can be charged in 5-10 minutes. Once one of those solutions become widely available, adoption will pick up. Also, gas hitting European prices in the US of $10-$12/gallon would also make people switch damn quick.
I sure hope so. But I think the charging infrastructure is the most challenging. To deliver a (mostly) full charge in 5-10 min requires power in the megawatt range and the current electrical grid is not setup for that.
It's typically more about momentum and costs. Funny, when you look at places like Norway, almost 100% of new vehicles are EVs. California is 25% of all new car registrations are EVs. But when you look at fuel costs, it makes sense. Same reason big trucks have been popular in the US, fuel costs have been relatively low, and when costs go up, those purchases go down.
That's only a little more than 2 hours at highway speeds.
Which is exactly when you should stop because fatigue starts to kick in.
Fatigue after only two hours of driving? Okay grandma. Seriously, where I live two hours at 80mph won't get you to the state line!
15mn break every 2h are the official recommendations, and also mandatory breaks for professional drivers in europe. If you like to drive like an ass, that's on you.
As for "grandma", that sexist behavior associated with being sure to driver better than others is the number one reason people have accidents.
I'm in the process of running a 6-20 outlet for ev charging that doesn't heat up mt panel or cause a huge draw. 240@16Amps is like 6+miles. Which means my commute is charged up in just under 3 hours. Yes, I could just hardwired something more exciting, but I want to slow charge my battery, but give it at least 240v to avoid the losses in winter.
I mean, he's kinda right. It just needs to charge you enough to get you where you plan to go and then you can plug in again and charge passively. Being able to have on-site charging basically anywhere the car can actually go makes it more convenient for everything except road trips, and since initial charging from low battery percentage is much more efficient, people just need to not feel the compulsive need to top off at 100%.
It's a dumb take on the face of it; splash n dash trips are extremely common, that's why they put points of sale on the pump stands. It's common enough for people to want to pay at the pump rather than ever walk into the store. Extremely common weekly errand.
Now, with an EV, likely charged at home every night thus starting most trips with a full battery, that should sharply reduce routine visits to gas stations. That leaves refueling on longer journeys. Which varies.
Me personally traveling alone, I'll still do quick splash n dash stops on medium length journeys, say 200 miles or so? At interstate speeds that's about 3 hours of traveling, I'll use the restroom before setting out and one 5 minute fuel stop will do the distance.
Now, if there is a planned stop, say on a 400 mile trip, I'm gonna stop, bathroom, grab a snack and a drink, and fuel the car. That's maybe a 15-20 minute stop to use the bathroom, grab a gatorade and a bag of funyuns from the convenience store, pay the clerk, walk back outside, then stand there at the pump while the car fills.
I will grant you, you can plug in your EV and have it charging while you're in the store, but none are going to charge in 15 minutes. So you're going to end up just standing there, or sitting there, while it finishes charging. With nothing at all to do. Even simulating the same behavior as with a gas car, stand there next to the charging cable staring at the price going up for ~5 minutes, the car's not going to have taken on enough power.
I have refueled my car at night at unattended gas stations. Sitting there for a couple hours while a car charges enough to reach the next station sounds real fun.
iow - charging stations can extract more revenue from drivers the longer the charge takes.
Sounds like Cutler, an engineer, has some MBA brainrot.
Gas stations can also raise the price of gas. You are realizing that both are the same. The differentiator is the possibility of charging at home without ever going to a dedicated station.
Fast charging is already expensive (often moreso than fuel unfortunately). The idea being proposed here is that if you make it slower, people get hungry and you can sell them more junk food. You lose that opportunity when charging is too fast, most people get their petrol and drive on instead of getting food each and every time. So it's actually better to have slower charging, even if you can then charge less money for the energy itself, since you have a captive audience.
Charging at public chargers in UK is insane. £40+ for a charge.
I think their point is that for a business a captive audience is a good thing. Kind of like how some grocery stores have noticed that when checkout takes longer, people are more likely to buy the drinks and snacks they put for sale near the checkout line. Likewise a charging station could have an overpriced restraunt selling low quality burgers for twice the price of the restraunts 2 minutes away by car, and customers will eat there because, they don't want to sit around for 30 minutes, and then drive down the road and stop for another 10.
Unless I'm missing something and fast chargers charge by the watt instead of the hour, in which case that's pretty big BS.
I’m always amused by the number of gas car drivers commenting on EV discussions.
charge by the watt instead of the hour, in which case that’s pretty big BS
Someone doesn't understand energy metering.
You pay for gas by the minute?
Unless I’m missing something and fast chargers charge by the watt instead of the hour, in which case that’s pretty big BS.
Why would that be BS? That's exactly how you pay for any other fuel. Why should EV charging be different?
Almost every EV charger is based on the amount you charge, time is irrelevant. The only places they charge by time are areas where the law requires them to essentially be a power company to charge for the power itself. So they get around that limitation by charging for the time instead.
I've traveled across the US and have never been to any areas like that however. I know they exist, but they're extremely uncommon. Nearly everything is charged by the watt.
sorry I said that backwards, meant by the time and not by the power you get. But yes IMO that's what would be silly is I guess if there are exceptions like that where taking longer costs more, as obviously that's largely a variable they control that doesn't have to do with your usage, I could see with using that as a workaround with stupid laws though.
I’m fine with waiting. Thing I wonder about is, how many vehicles can charge at a station at a time? Can you just make a parking lot with plugs for each space? If so, I’m good. Where’s the snack machine—
Got our first ev in august. Needed to install a lvl2 outlet right away. Now we have no issues or concerns with daily use. A road trip wouldn't be bad as is, you can walk away from a plugged in car where you are supposed to stay by a ICE filling up. So spend the 15 minute stop walking in the station, getting a drink or taking a piss.
I've found many (most honestly) non-EV ownershave some pretty big and fundamental misconceptions about EVs. They're not usually working from a point of reality when thinking about these things.
From my experience talking to people about my vehicles since 2018, most think that the car needs to be fully charged every time, and think that it takes multiple hours. They don't seem to realize that charging speeds vary based on the charge level (even though they literally see this exact thing with their phone charging every day. That you can use that to your advantage on longer trips, and that the built-in navigation systems automatically do this planning for you.
And they also tend to underestimate how much time they actually take when stopping for gas on trips. They usually just think about the time they're standing there at the pump getting gas, but ignore the time they take to use the restroom, get snacks/drinks, heck even the minute or two to walk into the gas station and back to the car... all of which would be unattended charging time in an EV. And those all add up quickly.
Ok, but once more idiots buy EVs, you will see assholes just parking at chargers, because America.
You already see this in major metro areas like Los Angeles. Assholes gonna asshole.
The current school of thought to counter it, is to charge them $1+ per minute they're connected to a charger, not charging. And the municipalities making it illegal to park in charging spots without charging with hundreds of dollars in fines per infraction. It's not perfect, but it helps a lot.
All those things matter:
- number of EVs on the roads
- number of private chargers
- number of public chargers
- average range
- average charging speed
- average trip distance
For EVs to work you need to have adequate combination of all of them. You can't simply say "charging speed doesn't matter" while ignoring range, number of EVs and distance people travel. Why do people insist on focusing only one thing at a time? First it was all about range, not it's all about charging speeds. It's not that simple.
So, every parking space is going to have a charger? Because those times that I've been to one of these big gas stations, I don't leave my car blocking the pump while I wander around inside looking for the restroom.
Aa a European, this thread reads like it's 2016.
Range is not an issue, nor is public charging. Yes, we drive long distances as well, it just happens to be cross-border. Fast chargers are nice for road trips, but destination charging is fine all other 350 days a year.
Uh, the only reason I go into the gas station now is to pick up a six pack of beer.
My goal is 3 minutes or less for every gas station stop.
It's dumb and will further integrate our daily lives with data centers and centralized control. We will have things like inescapable ads, ID requirements to drive, and whatever else they want to enforce that THEY don't like YOU doing in YOUR car (if we will still own cars or just have a cyber subscription)
They have already infiltrated our cars, now they will be able to allocate electricity for our fuel.
"Tired of waiting for your car to charge, it takes FOREVER! NOT ANYMORE! If you want faster charging, you can upgrade to a fast charge pass and be back on the road quick!"
Wrong.
Do you know battery swap ?
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All the messaging about fast charging speed is focused on the wrong thing. EV drivers should be able to do the vast majority of their charging at home or at their destination. The messaging should be about getting chargers in more homes, apartment complexes and workplaces. Speed doesn't matter as much if you're going to be parked for half the day or overnight. That's something that gas simply can't do.
Fast charging stations should only be necessary for road trips, where you should be taking a break every so often anyways.
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