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Lemmy needs more donations

a year ago by lwadmin to c/lemmyworld

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Hello world,

as many of you probably already know, Lemmy is an open source project and its development is funded by donations.

Unfortunately, as is often the case, donations amounts are often going down over time if people are not aware of their necessity. When older users leave the platform they may stop donating, while new users joining will typically not be aware of this and won't start donating to even things out or even go towards an overall increase in donations.

All of the services provided by our non-profit Fedihosting Foundation are dependent on the development of FOSS platforms, which we can host without paying any licensing or other fees, instead only being required to pay for the infrastructure cost. We are currently investing a small part (€50 each) of the donations we receive in development of Lemmy and Mastodon, but the majority of the donations we receive are used for covering infrastructure costs. We're currently just about breaking even with the donations we receive, but it's certainly not enough to cover a large part of Lemmy or other software development costs.

We're looking to support sustainable software development for all the services we provide and will post similar announcements on our other platforms to promote donations towards the respective development teams in the coming days.

You can find the original announcement by @nutomic@lemmy.ml below:

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/29579005

An open source project the size of Lemmy needs constant work to manage the project, implement new features and fix bugs. Dessalines and I work full-time on these tasks and more. As there is no advertising or tracking, all of our work is funded through donations. Unfortunately the amount of donations has decreased to only 2000€ per month. This leaves only 1000€ per developer, which is not enough to pay my bills. With the current level of donations I will be forced to find another job, and drastically reduce my contributions to Lemmy. To avoid this outcome and keep Lemmy growing, I ask you to please make a recurring donation:

Liberapay | Ko-fi | Patreon | OpenCollective | Crypto

If you want more information before donating, consider the comparison with Reddit. It began as startup funded by rich investors. The site is managed by corporate executives who over time have become more and more disconnected from normal users. Their main goal is to make investors happy and to make a profit. This leads to user-hostile decisions like firing the employee responsible for AMAs, blocking third-party apps and more. As Reddit is a single website under a single authority, it means all users need to follow the same rules, including ridiculous ones like censoring the name "Luigi".

Lemmy represents a new type of social media which is the complete opposite of Reddit. It is split across many different websites, each with its own rules, and managed by normal people who actually care about the users. There is no company and no profit motive. Much of the work is carried out by volunteer admins, mods and posters, who contribute out of enthusiasm and not for money. For users this is great as there is no advertising nor tracking, and no chance of takeover by a billionaire. Additionally there are no builtin political or ideological restrictions. You can use the software for any purpose you like, add your own restrictions or scrutinize its inner workings. Lemmy truly belongs to everyone.

Dessalines and I work fulltime on Lemmy to keep up with all the feature requests, bug reports and development work. Even so there is barely enough time in the day, and no time for a second job. Previously I sometimes had to rely on my personal savings to keep developing Lemmy for you, but that can't go on forever. We partly rely on NLnet for funding, but they only pay for development of new features, and not for mandatory maintenance work. The only available option are user donations. To keep it viable donations need to reach a minimum of 5000€ per month, resulting in a modest salary of 2500€ per developer. If that goal is reached Dessalines and I can stop worrying about money, and fully focus on improving the software for the benefit of all users and instances. Please use the link below to see current donation stats and make your contribution! We especially rely on recurring donations to secure the long-term development and make Lemmy the best it can be.

Donate

edit, as this was frequently brought up:

Will donations to Lemmy development go towards the operation of lemmy.ml?

It depends on the donation method used and is limited to around 2% of the minimum overall donation goal. The vast majority of donations is exclusively used for developer salaries.

lemmy.ml hosting is only financed by donations via Opencollective. All other donations go exclusively to developer salaries.

[source]

For donations via Open Collective, yes, a tiny fraction of donations towards Lemmy development will go towards the operation of lemmy.ml. The reasons for this include that lemmy.ml is used for testing new releases and also that it's not worth maintaining a separate donation account for the instance. Additionally, it should be noted that the money going towards lemmy.ml hosting is just a tiny fraction of the funds that are being asked for. Hosting lemmy.ml costs around €100/month, which is only 2% of the stated minimum donation goal.

arotrios 223 points a year ago

So all the discourse around lemmy.ml has made it clear to me that Lemmy's primary org has fallen prey to a key problem I've experienced running multiple social media sites and seen in my professional life as well.

And it boils down to this:

The tech guys are trying to be moderators. These are two entirely separate jobs that need completely different types of people to successfully execute the role.

Tech folk are brilliant in their subject, but often terrible at understanding people, social dynamics, and the limits of acceptable discourse. Their profession requires them to spend enormous amounts of time alone, which limits their real world experience, often to a crippling degree.

Good moderators (what used to be publishers and editors in the days of print) are those who understand people like tech folk understand SQL. They understand the multiple layers of subcontext that can be derived from an innocent sounding statement, and they have an innate sense of social dynamics and what is of interest to their audience. They also know how to speak to their audience and promote good content.

Most importantly, they understand that they are the gatekeepers of the publication's reputation, and safeguard it by being as impartial and fair as possible... a lesson the moderators of lemmy.ml have clearly failed to learn.

The only way to solve this dilemma in Lemmy.org's case is this:

  1. Separate the mod and dev teams. Devs should not mod, and mods should not dev

  2. Abandon or spin off lemmy.ml to folks not on the dev team - the fact that the instance is run by members of the dev team taints the reputation of the entire project and infrastructure. I do believe in free speech, but in this case, the reputational damage lemmy.ml has caused to the financial state of the dev team is too great to ignore.

  3. Lemmy.org needs to clearly state this delineation and prevent the official dev team from running instances officially attached to lemmy.org.

If this doesn't happen, I think that donations will continue to decrease until the project starves. There is great value in what the dev team has done, but unless they abandon lemmy.ml and focus entirely on development, I think this project will fail financially unless another dev team with a better rep takes their place.

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cm0002 116 points a year ago

To be absolutely clear, on .ml hardly any mods do modding, almost all the removals and bans is by one of 2 admins, dessalines themselves or davel (and occasionally a 3rd admin cypherpunks)

https://sh.itjust.works/comment/18374613

I'll donate money to individual instances, but for as long as Nutomic/Dessalines is in charge of the .ml instance I will not be donating to them.

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doctortran 38 points a year ago

Also, if they can't make enough money in donations to keep doing this full-time, why don't they let other people into the project on a volunteer basis? Reduce the workload on themselves so they can get part time jobs or something. All I've heard is how controlling they are, but it feels like this is too big of a thing to be on two individual developers in the first place.

If more people than just them could be involved, I'd happily donate. I would like to donate to something that's going to grow and get better over time, not to two individual developers treading water. I get it's difficult to find people that know Rust, and I sympathize, but my point stands. This entire project is operating very precariously on two individuals and if it's going to grow, that has to change at some point.

And as Arotrios said in another comment, the reason they're asking for money is because they lost the money they were getting. The way they operate, and allow that instance to destroy the reputation of their project, is what led to this. And it will continue to lead to this, unless they do some radical changes. I'm not putting my money back in until I see them doing something different and showing they've learned the lesson.

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 47 points a year ago

You seem to have a good grasp of the problem and have proposed a viable solution. Would you like a one month, one year, or permanent ban?

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arotrios 17 points a year ago

Shit, you triggered my reddit PTSD. I'm having flashbacks...

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greencactus 4 points a year ago

I wanted to text "here's your award", but then I remembered we don't have awards.

So here is your "hey, that was a great comment! I laughed and it made my day a bit better"- word-award :)

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aeharding 44 points a year ago

Abandon or spin off lemmy.ml to folks not on the dev team

lemmy.ml is an important testbed for new releases at scale. Many many issues have been caught by the dev team deploying there. lemm.ee too for that matter.

I do agree that Lemmy.ml should never be recommended as the “official” Lemmy instance, but (correct me if I’m wrong) the Lemmy devs don’t do that. They just say “A community of privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers“ which is fair to disclose (although maybe that could remove that. Idk). join-lemmy.org doesn’t handle or recommend Lemmy.ml specially.

I think usually it’s random users saying “join Lemmy.ml it’s the official instance” and we need to nip that in the bud… but it’s not Lemmy devs’ fault.

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TheTechnician27 65 points a year ago

Nine times out of ten I hear people say "join Lemmy.World, it's the catch-all and de facto default instance". I honestly don't think I've seen people recommend Lemmy.ml unless they're already ideologically aligned with Marxism–Leninism; if anything, most people seem to expressly recommend people don't join Lemmy.ml for ideological and censorship reasons (edit: reasons I agree with and echo, to clarify).

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 20 points a year ago

I mean I'm pretty lefty and some of the .ml folk scare the lymph out of me.

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FundMECFS 30 points a year ago

ML isn’t “far left” it leans leftist, but that isn’t what’s scary about it.

ML is hyper authoritarian (support China, North Korea, Russia to varying degrees).

This is due to them being extremely Campist. Campist meaning they’ll support anyone who “opposes” US influence, no matter how horrible they are.

In my opinion true leftists shouldn’t be supporting American OR Russian/Chinese Imperialism. If you’re anti imperialist, it means being against all imperialism, not just one side’s imperialism.

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greywolf0x1 -23 points a year ago

Then, you're probably not as lefty as you think.

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aeharding 19 points a year ago

I've mostly seen it recommended by random reddit users, not lemmy users. And to be fair it has decreased as a recommendation as its traffic has also decreased relative to other instances, especially since the reddit exodus.

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Serinus 11 points a year ago

I started on .ml exactly for this reason. It was the dev's instance and seemed like the default. Though that was the time of Reddit's API debacle, so it's been .au e a couple years now.

... I didn't stay on .ml once I realized how it was moderated.

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cm0002 8 points a year ago

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arotrios 36 points a year ago

lemmy.ml is an important testbed for new releases at scale. Many many issues have been caught by the dev team deploying there. lemm.ee too for that matter.

In general, it's considered bad practice to use a live site for testing dev updates, but I can see the value in having this available in this case. However, if they want to use a live site as a test bed for new features using a large audience, then they should ensure their moderation team doesn't allow the reputation of the instance to become what lemmy.ml's has. The fact of the matter is that it's become toxic branding to the overall Lemmy effort, and is actively undermining the dev team's efforts by impacting them financially.

The only way I can see to do this is at this point is by ceding their involvement in lemmy.ml to another team and rebranding join-lemmy.org as a software package, not a political statement.

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aeharding 14 points a year ago

rebranding join-lemmy.org as a software package, not a political statement

What do you mean by that?

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titaniumarmor 18 points a year ago

My read is that they’re recommending that

  1. Devs only work on development.
  2. A new, separate admin team be found (or formed) to handle administration for any instance that is dev-owned.

I agree with this. The act of administering a dev-operated instance with live accounts + users while working on the dev team presents a conflict of interest which is a deal-breaker for too many donors.

So, rather than simply asking the community for more donations (which is understandable but doesn’t address the root of the problem), it would be best to incorporate the feedback of the community and do away with the conflict of interest. IMO, another way to resolve this COI would be to disable live accounts for anyone who isn’t a developer in the “test” environment.

I’ve seen a defense presented in this thread along the lines of “we should be allowed to admin .ml because it’s a test instance” — but again, due to the fact that there are live accounts for live users (outside of the dev team) in the “test” environment, this is a distinction without a difference.

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arotrios 6 points a year ago

Lemmy the software's reputation has become conflated with the reputation of lemmy.ml, which promotes an authoritarian center-left viewpoint that regularly denies documented genocides. This is unpalatable to many end-users.

As such, unless the two are separated clearly and lemmy the organization disavows its involvement lemmy.ml, the overall reputation of the software will degrade, resulting in less use, less money for the developers, and the eventual collapse of the lemmy infrastructure.

Voat is an example of a great software package that became completely tainted by the (developer moderated) site to the point where you can't mention it in polite discourse any more. Not exactly the same circumstance, and in that case it was taken over by right-wing racists, but the dynamics are very similar.

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Saleh 6 points a year ago

So lets assume they dont moderate in a "tanky way" but instead in a "free speech absolutist way". Then they'll be criticized for giving nazis a platform. Lets assume instead they will moderate in a "European centrist way". Then by American standards they'll be criticized for being far left still. If they moderate in an "American centrist way", they'll be criticized as Trump apologist and far right supporters.

It is impossible to moderate in a politically "impartial" way, except to not moderate at all and create a complete cesspool.

Even if they don't run an instance themselves but instead choose to cooperate with an instance for the testing, that in itself will be an endorsement and scrutinized.

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mnemonicmonkeys 9 points a year ago

Lets assume instead they will moderate in a "European centrist way". Then by American standards they'll be criticized for being far left still.

That's a far better situation than supporting genocidal dictatorships. I don't think that's a hard standard to hold

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doctortran 9 points a year ago

It is not impossible, it's just difficult. You do not have to keep everyone satisfied, only enough of them. All you're doing here is making arguments for why they shouldn't change because they will never get 100% approval rating. That's just idiotic. No one is expecting perfect, they just expect better.

More importantly, neutrality in moderation is generally seen as more acceptable than swinging fully towards one direction. People will complain that you are allowing x or y, but you get much further by permitting that balance to exist naturally and moderating it at its most extremes, then you do buy stamping out one and promoting the other, which is absolutely what they do on .ml

Whoever said that you had to be a free speech absolutist, either? You can believe in free speech and also not be okay with Nazis on your platform.

It's really not that hard, many internet forums have been doing this for decades. It's kind of telling, frankly, how the very notion of it seems to elude some people around here.

All of which ignores the point the top comment made: that they shouldn't be moderating at all. Let whoever they choose moderate that instance, and separate from it entirely. Focus only on development.

But the fact they're apparently more concerned about the content on that instance than getting donations to support development of the platform is very telling, too.

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nutomic -10 points a year ago

Thank you for being reasonable about this.

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cm0002 23 points a year ago

It literally recommends lemmy.ml within the first 3 listings in most cases or even worse, Hexbear

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merdaverse 6 points a year ago

The code doesn't do any preferential treatment for any instances. You can easily see they are not favored over the others with any statistically significant number of refreshes. That's the beauty of OSS. You don't need to speculate conspiracy theories.

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cm0002 6 points a year ago

That's the beauty of OSS. You don't need to speculate conspiracy theories.

The beauty works with software because you can review the code and then compile from source. From there you know without a shred of doubt that the compiled version on your local machine is doing what you saw it would do in the code

That's not the case with a live website like join-lemmy, sure, the GitHub code checks out, but what guarantee do we have that the code shown on GitHub is what was deployed to the web server without modification? What guarantee is there they aren't running a modified lemmy.ml backend?

There isn't any guarantee except trust and I don't have any trust with Nutomic or dessalines.

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aeharding 5 points a year ago

Could you share a screenshot? I see it defaults to a random order of listings.

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cm0002 12 points a year ago

Here's from all topics - English - random

3 out of 5 refreshes and one of the top 3 is always hex, grad or .ml, that's sus AF

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cm0002 4 points a year ago

It's particularly bad when you select politics and English, the below were after 4 refreshes with that, choosing all topics and English was more fair, because of the fact theres 600+ instances for it to randomize through, but even then .ml, hex or grad showed up within the top 3 somewhat frequently as if they're weighted higher.

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comfy 7 points a year ago

I do agree that Lemmy.ml should never be recommended as the “official” Lemmy instance, but (correct me if I’m wrong) the Lemmy devs don’t do that.

Yeah you're correct, they explicitly don't want it considered the main instance.

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Klear 4 points a year ago

You'd think the ban button has been tested enough already...

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mnemonicmonkeys 25 points a year ago

@nutomic I hope you're currently taking notes of all of the feedback you're getting from everyone, particularly this comment. There is a lot that lemmy.ml needs to do to rehabilitate their reputation, and that needs to be done before people will be willing to donate.

If the lemmy devs continue to ignore the feedback from everyone regarding their management of lemmy.ml, their problem is only going to get worse. But if they are open minded about feedback then they have a chance to win people back

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Eldritch 19 points a year ago

I agree with everything you said generally. But one thing I don't see being mentioned much. That is kind of glaring. Is the fact that when you are developing software etc. You have testing systems and you have production systems. And they are two different systems. You never test on production. And you never use your test server as a production server. It's a bad idea in general, and there's no need to. And that really says it all.

The fact that they are using lemmy.ml as a testing and a production server. Isn't it justifiable, and it isn't acceptable. Despite the fact that I generally enjoy activity pub, the fediverse and of course use lemmy. Lemmy development will not see a single penny from myself. Nor should it see a single dime of donation from anyone until that's no longer the case. Which isn't even bringing up the Cesspool of an echo chamber this joke of a "test server" is

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nutomic 5 points a year ago

We have various test servers, but these are not enough to catch all the potential problems in a new release. Lemmy is very complex software, and a minor change can cause performance problems in an sql query and cause downtime for instances. Such problems are impossible to catch on test servers, at least with our very limited resources.

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OrekiWoof 5 points a year ago

How would you do public testing without making it significantly more expensive?

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Eldritch 6 points a year ago

Many larger foss projects roll out Point releases to a trusted circle of volunteer testers. I'm sure there's plenty of people running many different sized instances who enjoy being on the latest greatest version of software. If I was currently running an instance. I would probably number myself among them. I do run many servers. Just not currently any for lemmy/mastodon Etc. However it's pretty common/normal practice.

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AdrianTheFrog 10 points a year ago

keep in mind they're a team of just 2 people. It's easier said than done to separate the dev team and the mod team

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hakase 23 points a year ago

It’s easier said than done to separate the dev team and the mod team

That has to apply when deciding whether to support them as well, then.

Not to mention that the communities over there have moderators - the devs just insist on taking matters into their own hands, which is a significant part of what makes them so deeply unpopular. They're choosing to mod like this, when they really don't have to.

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CooperRedArmyDog -2 points a year ago

They seem quite popular from .ml users, i only see complaints about them from none .ml users come to think about it. Why should my instance have to listen to your moderation citiques but when I find that your instance is too lax when it comes to the right wing I get told to pound sand "tankie" its not your instance? do we all see this double standard?

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hakase 6 points a year ago

The difference, and why it's not a double standard, of course, being the fact that I'm not going to your instance and asking for money.

Like, think about it for a second - imagine that I actively moderate .world or some "lib instance" where I aggressively ban tankie talking points, and that I also contribute a huge amount to the codebase of Lemmy. If I were to go to the tankie instances to ask for money that's going into my own pocket, I'd get laughed out of the room. There's no way they're gonna cough up dough for someone like that, especially with all of the horrible accusations they make about .world (transphobia, nazis, etc.).

And we know this is the case, because they're already rioting in the donation threads about Nutonic's transphobia. And he's already a tankie. If a literal tankie can't pass the purity test well enough to get their support, there is zero chance a "lib" would.

Anyway, there's no right wing content here that I've seen, but regardless, I absolutely support .ml users having their instance moderated exactly as they would want. That's what decentralization and federation is for, after all.

I also fully support the devs using .ml as their testing ground for new versions of Lemmy.

I do not support the devs of the entire Lemmy project actively censoring dissenting viewpoints on a tankie instance. They have a right to moderate their instance however they see fit, of course, but I also have the right to not give them any of my money because of it.

If the devs do want money from us, then, as has been mentioned repeatedly, all they have to do is stop actively moderating .ml themselves and let their mods do it for them, and I believe the donations would pour in.

They don't seem willing to do that (Dessalines, at least), and so they will continue to receive pennies outside of the Tankie Triad. And y'all would do the exact same if the situation were reversed, and you know it.

Simple as.

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psx_crab 12 points a year ago

They have 5 peoples in the admin team, 2 of them is the dev. If they stop moderating, it will still have 3 on the team. It's VERY easy to separate themselves from moderating but they still chose to put their resource(time) into it.

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boredtortoise 1 point a year ago

They could probably do something like a voluntary self-re-education camp for themselves and change their terroristic views. There's probably some inspiration somewhere in the world.

Or if not that, get other devs to continue the project and do something else.

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SorteKanin 8 points a year ago

You are forgetting another option: Develop new projects that interoperate with Lemmy via ActivityPub. Then use and support those projects instead.

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milicent_bystandr 8 points a year ago

Good moderators (what used to be publishers and editors in the days of print) are those who understand people like tech folk understand SQL

Thing is, you don't have to federate with .ml. If you think .ml is badly moderated, you don't have to be part. Tech devs are also entitled to have personal projects that they needn't do very well; and if .ml serves well as a test server for the software, all the better.

I agree the controversy has driven people away. But maybe that controversy is part and parcel of Lemmy: you either let it be or hide it; is hiding it so much better?

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wewbull 15 points a year ago

People are being asked to give money to the mods of .ml in their role as devs. There's even a statement at the start of the thread that says (paraphrased) "yes, some small percentage will go to .ml because it is the primary testbed".

The issue isn't federation. It's being asked to give money to support a place that prescribes values that the donator disagrees with.

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ArtificialHoldings 1 point a year ago

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chunes 1 point a year ago

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3dmvr -10 points a year ago

Oh forsure where will they test new festures with testeds then lmao You paying for it?

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NOT_RICK 117 points a year ago

Dessalines and I work fulltime on Lemmy

They should spend more time devving and less time mod actioning wrongthink

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Stovetop 104 points a year ago

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dohpaz42 34 points a year ago

part of those donations go to lemmy.ml's server upkeep

If that’s true, that’s misappropriating the donations being that they’re billed as supporting development. Server maintenance and upkeep is important, but do not mislead your benefactors to do so, lest you destroy their trust and stop donating to your cause.

I would like it if both @nutomic@lemmy.ml and @dessalines@lemmy.ml could confirm or put to rest if this is true.

Edit: a couple of users pointed out that lemmy.ml is used as a test bed for lemmy development. This is good info, and not something I, personally, was aware of.

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superkret 32 points a year ago

The devs need an instance with real users and real load to test changes.
lemmy.ml is that test instance.
It's a non-optional part of the dev pipeline, that's why its upkeep is financed by dev donations, too.
So, it is true, and it isn't misleading supporters, or misappropriating donations.

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hakase 51 points a year ago

Sounds like that should be more of an incentive to make sure the instance isn't shit then.

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dohpaz42 22 points a year ago

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never before seen mention of this; this is the type of stuff that should be mentioned in blurbs like the one above. People who are not aware of lemmy.ml being a test server may find it off putting otherwise.

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Eldritch 9 points a year ago

No, they don't. In professional software development you have testing systems and production systems. You DONT test on production. You DON'T use testing as production.

They don't need real users or real load. If they can't generate/simulate testing loads. They aren't serious developers worth funding.

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Cowbee 4 points a year ago

  1. Lemmy.ml is a test server, it's needed for development

  2. Donations pay their salaries, everything donated goes towards their living expenses in general. If they go to the movies, you are also paying for that. It's the same as a company paying programming workers xyz wage, that's the price of software labor, but it doesn't mean all of that money directly goes to the bare necessities for maintaining dev work.

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Hansae 32 points a year ago

Yet said test server is a toxic cesspit of tankies who actively brigade and harass those who disagree with them : /

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TheTechnician27 -3 points a year ago

Consider the following:

  • nutomic and dessalines are human beings with finite monetary resources.
  • These monetary resources are fungible.
  • nutomic and dessalines pay money to run lemmy.ml.
  • Thus, some of their finite monetary resources go to running lemmy.ml.
  • Much of their finite monetary resources go to keeping themselves sheltered, alive, and presumably accommodated with some basic first-world niceties.
  • They raise donations to spend time developing Lemmy because otherwise they would have to be employed either at all or more than they already are so they could continue to be sheltered and alive.
  • Consequently, if the devs have literally any expenses that aren't staying alive for the express purpose of developing Lemmy, you're financing those too.

This isn't some scandal if you understand basic microeconomics. Inherently this is true unless nutomic or dessalines stop running lemmy.ml or find a way to run it off of dreams and unicorn farts. They're not "misappropriating funds" or whatever; the nature of funds is that they're fungible.

Edit: And it's not like in light of increased donations, they'd be taking the Lemmy development funds and using them to buy a schwanky new servertron 3000 with kung-fu grip for .ml. .ml was already open-registration, so it's not like it's possible for them to misappropriate development funds to open the floodgates and let thousands of new users in who were previously locked out. We can monitor how many users .ml has, and we can audit the software it's running.

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Cypher 37 points a year ago

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DmMacniel -24 points a year ago

you lost me at

These monetary resources are fungible

because that's crypto bro talk.

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Lancer 12 points a year ago

This is, unfortunately, the necessary view to take. Lemmy the software is a net positive, but nobody should be giving money to support their extremism and love of censorship, particularly when it happens on what’s arguably the “official” instance.

Numotic and Dessalines actively cultivate very toxic content:

  • Pro-Russia, blaming Ukraine as a Nazi aggressor;
  • Pro-Chinese Communist Party, banning discussion of the mistreatment of the Uighur minority or the anti-democratic takeover of Hong Kong;
  • Anti-Semitic, going way beyond the confines of criticism of the current Israeli government, on to hateful comments about all Israelis as a people, and sometimes Jews in general,
  • Pro-Communism, at times advocating for the violent overthrow of Western governments by Marxist groups.
  • Strongly in favor of left wing dictatorships, like Venezuela, decrying any discussion of human rights and democracy as capitalist propaganda.

If you disagree with these positions, too bad! Because your posts will be deleted, or you’ll get banned, or your instance defederated, from ml.

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nutomic -6 points a year ago

lemmy.ml hosting is only financed by donations via Opencollective. All other donations go exclusively to developer salaries.

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cm0002 109 points a year ago

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Lancer 30 points a year ago

This is, unfortunately, the necessary view to take. Lemmy the software is a net positive, but nobody should be giving money to support their extremism and love of censorship, particularly when it happens on what’s arguably the “official” instance.

Numotic and Dessalines actively cultivate very toxic content:

  • Pro-Russia, blaming Ukraine as a Nazi aggressor;
  • Pro-Chinese Communist Party, banning discussion of the mistreatment of the Uighur minority or the anti-democratic takeover of Hong Kong;
  • Anti-Semitic, going way beyond the confines of criticism of the current Israeli government, on to hateful comments about all Israelis as a people, and sometimes Jews in general,
  • Pro-Communism, at times advocating for the violent overthrow of Western governments by Marxist groups.
  • Strongly in favor of left wing dictatorships, like Venezuela, decrying any discussion of human rights and democracy as capitalist propaganda.

If you disagree with these positions, too bad! Because your posts will be deleted, or you’ll get banned, or your instance defederated, from ml.

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pressanykeynow 4 points a year ago

Not judging and correct me if I got it wrong. You like Lemmy and want to support it but you personally don't like the developers of Lemmy?

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cm0002 37 points a year ago

I don't like what they're doing, they are actively using their positions and instances position of influence to push harmful propaganda, misinformation, censor opinions critical of it and all the while turning a blind/lenient eye to what their users do if they consider them to be ideologically aligned with them.

If they actually surrendered .ml admin duties to a more balanced team that actually allowed non-Tankie mods to well mod, I would reconsider donating.

While I consider their "ideology" to be harmful, if they stopped trying to "infuse" Lemmy with it and separated their work from their personal politics it would satisfy a lot of concerns

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victorz 23 points a year ago

Yikes, this is big for me. I love Lemmy but I have strong aversions against funding bad politics, even if they aren't politicians.

What kind of views and ideologies are they pushing? Also are they a couple or something?

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endeavor 29 points a year ago

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pressanykeynow -3 points a year ago

Thank you. Seems I was correct then.

How do they exploit their position as devs to push their political agenda? Do they add something to the code that gives them some exclusive benefits?

If you mean they just host their own instance, isn't it the whole point of Lemmy and what all the other instances are doing? Some even block other instances that do not match their political bias to not ruin their echo chamber. I mean I'm on lemmy.world which probably would be more accurately named lemmy.ultra.left.usa for some time now.

I fully understand you not wanting to support lemmy.ml financially and want to point out that only one donation method is used to help hosting it, all the others will not benefit lemmy.ml exclusively but will benefit all the other instances and lemmy as a whole.

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cm0002 3 points a year ago

How do they exploit their position as devs to push their political agenda? Do they add something to the code that gives them some exclusive benefits?

Look at how the .ml instance is positioned. People will hear "That instance is run by the devs and all support and other official development comms are on it" and will automatically gravitate to it and the reputation of Lemmy as a whole becomes tied to it. And other instances are hesitant to defed from it because of that.

So now the devs are in a defacto position of influence, regardless of if they want it or not. Now they have a choice, they can moderate it fairly and unbiased (i.e. not using it to further their personal politics) or separate its day to day operations to another admin team. As another commentator in this thread put it "The devs should do dev work and not mod work, and the admin team should do mod work and not dev work"

They've already proven that they cant do the first choice so now the only viable option is the second one, which they're probably not gonna address.

If you mean they just host their own instance, isn't it the whole point of Lemmy and what all the other instances are doing? Some even block other instances that do not match their political bias to not ruin their echo chamber. I mean I'm on lemmy.world which probably would be more accurately named lemmy.ultra.left.usa for some time now.

Because of my first point, they tied all sorts of official development stuff to .ml, many instances don't want to defederate because of that and the perception (it doesn't really hold when you look at MAUs) that they have the biggest comms on lemmy, it's almost akin to holding them hostage in my eyes "if you or your mods want official on-lemmy lemmy support, official announcements or access to Lemmys BIGGEST comms then you HAVE to stay federated with us!"

Things would be different if they were just running a personal instance with no official Lemmy anything on it, then it would be much easier for instances to make a defederation decision, just like the rest of the triad

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acockworkorange 1 point a year ago

Donating to Lemmy development is a donation to .ml. They make it that way. If you don't want to donate to an authoritarian instance, then you can't donate to development. It's not very complicated.

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LoveSausage -15 points a year ago

That's a lie you are free to run your own instance

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ClamDrinker 84 points a year ago

While I understand the moral objections people have to supporting the developers, I do think its fair to highlight how they do not treat us.

We are not a product here to be exploited and advertised to. They also respect your choice to block ml and not to interact with them at all for the rest. I am sure I would be absolutely abhorred by the depth of depravity of your average silicon valley CEO's hot takes, but they dont share it for this exact reason. Instead they just design their entire product and business around it, which is the enshittification we all know and hate.

People you dont agree with having a place of their own on the fediverse is a logical consequence of the idea behind it, and while uncomfortable, is a greater good in the end.

But to maintain that it means putting your money where your mouth. If not to them, to your own instance.

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poplargrove 29 points a year ago

I am sure I would be absolutely abhorred by the depth of depravity of your average silicon valley CEO’s hot takes

That's a really good point.

Also, the Lemmy devs might have authoritarian views but work off of donations while the silicon valley CEOs are some hyper-capitalists with power. The lesser evil seems clear to me.

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 5 points a year ago

In a former life I worked in the financial sector. The only reason statesia hasn't genocided itself to bones already is because all the ceos have been incompetent stumbling over each others' plans for genocide and (fortunately for us, depending on how depressed you are) kept fucking it up for so long.

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vatlark 23 points a year ago

Very well said. Everything good in life, will have some aspects that you (the global 'you') won't like.

Lemmy is a huge improvement over corporate social media. Maybe it has some ideologies you don't like here, but it beats an algorithm that secretly manipulates you.

If I use a FOSS product, then I try to pay for it, even if it's not perfect. For example, Firefox gets a lot of well deserved hate but without it I'm not sure there would be a realistic FOSS browser.

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socsa 2 points a year ago

My experience anywhere on Lemmy that .ml touches has been notably worse than anything I have experienced on reddit.

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Ledivin 16 points a year ago

People you dont agree with having a place of their own on the fediverse is a logical consequence of the idea behind it, and while uncomfortable, is a greater good in the end.

We're also not required to fund those people. I don't care if they exist, but I will not be party to their bullshit

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ClamDrinker 27 points a year ago

You're not required to do anything, let alone directly funding ml. That's not what I am arguing for. I am arguing for you to support Lemmy despite the chance some of it might go to ml.

It goes the other way too, the developers probably disagree with a large part of the beliefs of people using lemmy, yet they also put in their time to create and foster it, which we never had to pay for either. They did it for the reasons they mention (free spaces, not owned by corporations that suck their users dry), which is separate from their other political positions.

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Ledivin 24 points a year ago

I am arguing for you to support Lemmy despite the chance some of it might go to ml.

They have been up-front about this (surprisingly) - there is no "might." Donating to these devs is a donation to lemmy.ml, without exception.

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ClamDrinker 14 points a year ago

Yeah, it's literally all over this thread, not exactly a secret. It's kind of a weird nitpick of my comment, considering it's just a way of phrasing things. If I give an alcoholic some money, I will say "they might use that to buy booze". Because I am sure they buy booze, but they might use my money to buy some food instead. Not every single dollar you give the developers will go to ml.

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nutomic -3 points a year ago

Not true, lemmy.ml is only funded by donations via Opencollective. All other donation platforms go exclusively to developer salaries.

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Auntievenim 3 points a year ago

You should delete the app then, if it's so important to you.

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avidamoeba 4 points a year ago

Very well said. In addition, the fact that they hold the beliefs they do makes them extremely resistant to flipping and getting on the enshittification wagon.

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Alphane_Moon 1 point a year ago

And how exactly are bunch of genocide supporters who claim to be leftists (russia is an authoritarian capitalist state) any better than some American oligarchs?

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Wispy2891 81 points a year ago

Am I wrong or is the same person making fun of the ridiculous censorship rules on Reddit while enforcing similar ridiculous censorship rules on their own .ml instance?

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bassomitron 58 points a year ago

Yeah, .ml is usually a giant circle jerk and often removes comments/posts that are critical of things like the CCP.

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davidagain 28 points a year ago

I got banned on ml for arguing that it was obvious that trump was worse than the Democrats

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Lancer 15 points a year ago

Lemmy the software is a net positive, but nobody should be giving money to support their extremism and love of censorship, particularly when it happens on what’s arguably the “official” instance.

Numotic and Dessalines actively cultivate very toxic content:

  • Pro-Russia, blaming Ukraine as a Nazi aggressor;
  • Pro-Chinese Communist Party, banning discussion of the mistreatment of the Uighur minority or the anti-democratic takeover of Hong Kong;
  • Anti-Semitic, going way beyond the confines of criticism of the current Israeli government, on to hateful comments about all Israelis as a people, and sometimes Jews in general,
  • Pro-Communism, at times advocating for the violent overthrow of Western governments by Marxist groups.
  • Strongly in favor of left wing dictatorships, like Venezuela, decrying any discussion of human rights and democracy as capitalist propaganda.

If you disagree with these positions, too bad! Because your posts will be deleted, or you’ll get banned, or your instance defederated, from ml.

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LoveSausage -24 points a year ago

So use a different instance? You dont seen to have a problem freeloading at least?

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bassomitron 22 points a year ago

Obviously I did? What is even the point of your comment and the insult of calling me a freeloader, when the vast majority of Lemmy users are literally freeloading on public instances? Unless you're triggered by us correctly calling out .ml and its censoring bullshit?

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LoveSausage -22 points a year ago

If you are ok with freeloading , how do you reconcile that with dictating where people spend their income?

Come on be consistent.

Stop using Lemmy and go back to stormfront. Or at least shut up on where devs spend their income.

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Fizz 28 points a year ago

Yes but that also highlights the advantage of Lemmy. Its not censorship for Lemmy.ml to enforce its rules because users can post on another instance where Lemmy.ml admins have no power. On reddit thats not an option.

Its a good thing that we have instances that curate their own communities.

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bassomitron 11 points a year ago

I feel that's missing the forest for the trees in regards to what we're discussing, though. Enforcing rules is one thing; actively enforcing the suppression of any dissent of opinion is censorship, full stop. It isn't "curating" communities when you are aggressively enforcing all those communities stay in lockstep to your political views.

But yes, federation helps to mitigate the completeness of that censorship. However, the original devs of Lemmy itself created the .ml instance, so it's kind of an ironic situation, which is why I bothered replying in the first place to the original comment.

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Fizz 2 points a year ago

I'd argue it still is curation. Humans have different perspectives (not nessesarily correct) now if you have those perspectives you probably dont want to have to litigate the same issues day in and day out by people from an outside community so you'd enforce rules and heavily curate your community.

The thing with Lemmy is its up to the instances to decide if the group(Lemmy.ml) is worth having in their federation. We could defederate Lemmy.ml and I dont think it would go away or development on the software would stop.

You dont get that kind of control on other platforms. Everything is enforced by a Moraless corp whos morals shift on a dim.

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IndustryStandard -42 points a year ago

You are wrong.

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FlashMobOfOne 68 points a year ago

No ads and no algorithm isn't free.

Folks, open your wallets and throw a few bucks Lemmy's way. I'm a monthly donor myself, and I consider it money well-spent compared to the shit show that is every other social media platform.

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corsicanguppy -40 points a year ago

I welcome ads. I welcome as many ads as the site manager feels won't bleed members. Algorithms too, but good luck keeping members if that happens.

I do not want to give money to where it supports regimes that hate, but that is entirely my choice and I get that. You're free to classify that separately and I fully support you doing what's best for you.

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MrKaplan 36 points a year ago

ethical ads are virtually non-existent. when limiting ads to ethical ads it's unlikely you're getting even remotely close to bringing in the necessary funds.

people promoting ads are typically those who expect others to suffer while they themselves are using ad blockers. there are some people who honestly turn off ad blockers, but i wouldn't recommend anyone to do that for any site, as i don't consider the majority of ads ethical and it's also often used as a malware/phishing/scam distribution mechanism.

this is also a vicious cycle of more people blocking ads -> ads getting worse to offset the lost ad revenue -> more people blocking ads. this is what lead to the internet today, where the majority of the internet is basically unusable if you don't use ublock origin or a comparable solution.

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Eheran 2 points a year ago

No, there was no such cycle to get is here. Still only about 1/3 block (some) ads, and that is a rather new development over the last few years. Just 5 years ago it were only about half that. Ads were already everywhere at that point and 1/6 can definitely not explain any sort of cycle.

Instead, people just want to make more money. More ads and more aggressive ads = more money. Very simple. Ad blocker usage then skyrockets as a result of this.

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ArtificialHoldings 64 points a year ago

Comments are a hilarious minefield and a painful reminder of exactly how online leftists can never get shit done. We want FOSS federated social media platforms to escape the tech giants that would happily facilitate a fascist wave if it meant they can serve more targeted ads. But when that platform actually exists in a totally functional and apolitical way, we don't want to support its development because the people willing to work full time on the project for poverty wages have bad political opinions. It's so bad that we'd rather support Steve Huffman's bot farm which is 1,000 times as politically influential as Lemmy will ever be at this rate.

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Alphane_Moon 54 points a year ago

Being Ukrainian it's not possible for me to donate to supporters of russian genocidal imperialism.

I hope both of them meet the same fate as "Donbas Cowboy", Russell Bentley:

Bentley’s wife, Lyudmila, then claimed that Russian soldiers from a tank battalion abducted him.

According to the Investigative Committee, Vansyatsky, Agaltsev, and Iordanov tortured Bentley on April 8, and he died shortly afterward.

I am personally hoping that the core software will be forked while retaining the Lemmy name. Change it to Lemmy-TSF (tankie scum free). I would donate monthly to a development team that doesn't include genocide supporters.

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EfreetSK 47 points a year ago

I was thinking long and hard about this to form an opinion, but my answer is no.

The final decission point was: I'm from Slovakia, it's no secret that Russia would love to take us under their sphere of influence. You and your instance is not only supporting this, you're actively propagating this. In fact, I'm pretty sure if Russian soldiers would be at my doorstep, threatening my family, you and your instance would be cheering. And when I would realize, that I actively supported this, that would break me.

If you're about to publish your work for free, I gladly use it as long as it's run by good people like lemmy.world. This way you get no support from me. If I'd pay you, I don't know what part of my support would end up in .ml instance which I see as a propaganda machine against countries like mine. And even if you say that none of my money would end up there, I kind of don't want to support you as a human being. I won't pay your salary so you have energy to do what you do on .ml instance.

If Lemmy as a project dies, so be it. Foss world can always spark successful forks (see OpenElec vs LibreElec) and alternatives like PieFed already exist

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asymmetric 46 points a year ago

Done. Lemmy is too good not to get properly funded.

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TheTechnician27 43 points a year ago

For those with decision paralysis, Liberapay is a great choice. They're a France-based non-profit which is itself run off of donations which it crowdfunds on its own platforn (pretty based tbh), and the site itself is FOSS.

Of some note unfortunately is that donations for development also go to the maintainer-run instance .ml – whose tankie position is to expressly deny genocides like the Holodomor and the ongoing genocide of the Uyghurs by China – but the costs of development versus the costs of just running the server are completely disproportionate in favor of development. With that in mind, being ideologically purist here enables much greater evils, and I think Lemmy has easily given me more than this value: donated $20 (edit: upped to $30 for drama reasons).

$30 Liberapay receipt toward Lemmy showing $1.28 in processing fees

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miss_demeanour 39 points a year ago

How does one AVOID funding .ml?

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TheTechnician27 47 points a year ago

Addressed this in an edited-in second paragraph. Answer is "unfortunately, you can't" unless you wish to fork Lemmy. But as someone who's sickened to my core by tankie ideas, I still think funding this piece of FOSS is by far the lesser evil, I think I make a compelling argument for it, and I do think the Lemmy team do good work on the software side.

If I can hold my nose and vote for the lesser evil, I need to follow that same principle when it's not just my vote I'm casting but where I'm putting my time and money.

Edit: I completely forgot that you could, in theory, try helping out on their GitHub if you have a background in CS. It won't pay for the developers' cost of living, but it could reduce the maintenance burden if you know what you're doing.

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Coelacanth 33 points a year ago

As far as I know their politics and views have had zero impact on the code.

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Cowbee 39 points a year ago

Almost true, being Communists has certainly influenced the reasons for Lemmy as a federated, anticapitalist alternative to Reddit to begin with.

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Quill7513 10 points a year ago

That's actually impossible. Politics is a question of systems engineering. Programming is a question of systems engineering. Creating propaganda is a matter of creating and disseminating information in a particular way. Coding is a matter of creating and disseminating information in a particular way. A person's outlook will always influence the programs they design, the platforms they build, and the algorithms they tune.

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LandedGentry 9 points a year ago

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comfy 4 points a year ago

As far as I know their politics and views have had zero impact on the code.

Adding to what Cowbee said, general anticapitalist politics were the motivation for their effort and the reason it is not a for-profit exploitative service. They don't want or need to put in addictive features or ads to profit or appease venture capital, and that's no coincidence, it's a decision resulting from their political beliefs.

But yes, their more specific personal political views don't really impact the code and haven't prevented others from using it freely.

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TheTechnician27 2 points a year ago

Entirely true, but as I said, it seems that a small proportion of whatever's donated goes to the server costs of .ml since it's run by Lemmy's maintainers. It's understandable and even a good thing to be put off by that.

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Serinus 18 points a year ago

I'm mixed. On one hand, absolutely fuck .ml and tankies. On the other, these guys have done great work. The way it's set up, Lemmy is not at all beholden to their ideology. We can take it over at any time, and any further work they do benefits all of us, and that can't be taken away.

As a fellow developer, I truly believe Rust is the way to go for high pressure, high scaling software. I don't think LW alone could run off of your average python. EVE Online is a great example of that. They pushed python forward to meet their high demand needs, and still had to incorporate a lot of C++. Reddit has had teams of engineers over decades, and in the long run I expect Lemmy to be more efficient. In my professional opinion, this kind of scaling can't be reasonably done with any garbage collected language.

My other concern is with sanctions. Are these guys in Russia? Is it legal to donate to them? If you're paying by check or credit card, those institutions will take care of following the law for you.

Overall, I'd encourage people to donate. Open software benefits everyone and any work they do for us is public and can never be taken back.

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Coelacanth 10 points a year ago

My other concern is with sanctions. Are these guys in Russia? Is it legal to donate to them? If you're paying by check or credit card, those institutions will take care of following the law for you.

I'm 99.99% sure they're not in Russia. I feel like I've read they're in the Netherlands but that needs fact checking.

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Metz 8 points a year ago

To my knowledge are the lemmy.world guys from the netherlands. At least the 2 admins. And the FediHosting Foundation lemmy.world (and e.g. mastodon.world, etc) belongs to is in the Netherlands.

No idea about dessalines though. but i don't think russia either.

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Eldritch 3 points a year ago

As a developer, would you test on production though? I'm not a professional developer. However I'm quite familiar with it. Family developing and IT for massive companies. You don't need real people to generate traffic. You just don't. Lemmy.ml being the test server is a selfish bullshit excuse.

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Serinus 3 points a year ago

Not primarily, of course. You have a local and QA instance, but some things only come out at real scale or with real data. You can't think of everything to have it added to testing. Having your own, real instance that gets to serve as beta and accessible telemetry really helps.

LW functions at the opposite end of the spectrum. They try to maintain the most stability, which also makes sense.

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MrKaplan 3 points a year ago

lemmy.ml is not the primary test server.

there are multiple dedicated test instances that are used for development purposes.

testing on lemmy.ml is mostly happening for release candidates that require actual user activity to find remaining bugs, at the point where it's getting close to a proper release.

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Irelephant 15 points a year ago

As much as I dislike a lot of .ml, it costs like €30/month to run. Not much of your money would be going to it.

donating to lemmy helps every other instance much more than it helps .ml.

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drmoose 12 points a year ago

As someone else pointed out the donation would also fund .ml moderation time not only the development

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GreyEyedGhost 10 points a year ago

My employer funds my shitposting here on Lemmy, the only difference is they aren't aware of it.

As unpalatable what they do in their free time is, I think you have to draw the line somewhere on what you're okay with supporting. I don't think it's okay, for example, for a delivery driver for a brewing company to be fired for drinking a different brand of beer, but it is okay for him to be fired for assaulting someone while on the company clock. Where this line is drawn is going to vary from person to person. I personally would be happier if they had a clearer separation of their personal and professional activities. I'm not sure if I will donate to them or not at this point. I have donated to my instance, which doesn't appear to pass donations on to the developers, which means I will have to actively make a decision for where I stand on this 😬. It would be easier if their test bed didn't also promote their unpalatable views.

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Irelephant 1 point a year ago

Good point, but I feel like thats saying your employer is funding anything you spend your money on.

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nutomic 10 points a year ago

lemmy.ml is already entirely funded, your donations go entirely to our salaries.

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gamermanh -15 points a year ago

Give your money to any other product or service

If they want money for Lemmy then they can step down or stop being shitty mode

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3dmvr 5 points a year ago

lmao what does step down even mean anyone can fork it and start working on it

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Quill7513 11 points a year ago

getting traction for a fork is never that simple. as of now there is not the kind of consensus that you look for at fork time that leadership needs to change. but the groundswell is growing

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diffaldo -4 points a year ago

Thanks for contributing! It’s sad to see so many people focus on unnecessary drama

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Eheran 0 points a year ago

Why not just use Reddit then instead of focusing on some drama about the CEO and how they handle moderation?

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TheTechnician27 9 points a year ago

We're not under the administrative control of any of Lemmy's developers as far as I'm aware, unless you're suggesting that Lemmy's federation is a facade and every instance's administration is secretly a tankie puppet government who are just really, really, imperceptibly subtle about it.

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socsa 42 points a year ago

Fuck the lemmy.ml devs. I'm not going to donate to a group of people who have clearly targeted me over and over again across multiple accounts with petty bans for gently questioning their authoritarian orthodoxy.

Donate to forks like piefed or mbin. Let .ml reap what it sows.

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comfy -7 points a year ago

over and over again across multiple accounts with petty bans

Is this ban evasion, or am I misinterpreting?

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13igTyme 9 points a year ago

Bans can be temporary.

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orangeboats 41 points a year ago

ITT: a mighty showcase of the divide-and-conquer strategy by psyops.

Instead of realizing that our goal as an alternative community to Reddit is first and foremost to... well duh, to build a community and keep it thriving, people here are infighting, preferring to subdivide themselves into tankies and non-tankies.

If Lemmy eventually fails and no other project with a similar feature-set can show up in time, we end up killing the existing momentum.

If that happens, all of you shall remember this very moment, and bravo to the psyops people (be it from the government or corporate) because you won yet again.

Donated. Though because I am living in a third world country it's just a measly ~25 dollars.

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UnderpantsWeevil 38 points a year ago

I used to put up $50/mo to Hexbear, until they banned me for defending the DSA.

So far, the politics on this community have been dogshit. But the moderation has been generally fair, friendly, and functional. To you, I say, Shut Up and Take My Money. Thanks for letting me continue my shitposting habits, even if we've agreed to disagree.

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whotookkarl 37 points a year ago

Donated, I'd rather be on a foss platform that can defederate/block bad faith interlocutors than a corpo platform that forces their anti user pro monetization shit on everyone who uses their platform.

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forensic_potato 37 points a year ago

More than happy to monetarily support this amazing open source project with monthly contributions! Thank you to all the devs involved in running this platform

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Ledivin 37 points a year ago

I would never donate so long as that donation supports lemmy.ml

Based on the general community sentiment I've seen and your reports of barely breaking even here, you can either break from the tankies or watch lemmy die without enough funds.

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qaz 8 points a year ago

Are you aware that the top and bottom part of the post are from completetly different people? The top part is from Lemmy.world's admin, while the bottom part is from one of the Lemmy developers (and Lemmy.ml's admin).

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Ledivin 12 points a year ago

...are you under the impression that they're unrelated?

As stated in the post, donating to lemmy.world infra costs always means that a portion of your donation goes to lemmy devs. Said devs have very explicitly stated that part of those donations finance lemmy.ml

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MrKaplan 25 points a year ago

it's around 2.5% of our monthly expenses that go to the lemmy devs. 2% of the stated minimum donation goal would be the hosting costs for lemmy.ml. with the assumption that the lemmy donation goals is met, that would mean around 0.05% of the donations to lemmy.world/fedihosting foundation are used for lemmy.ml hosting costs.

this was already explained in a few other places in the comments here, but in the end, even if it wasn't directly going to instance operating costs, if you pay people a salary and they then take it out of their own pockets there is no real difference, as the money would still end up in the same place.

edit: it has since been clarified that only donations via Lemmy's open collective account are used for lemmy.ml hosting costs. our donations towards Lemmy development are not done through open collective and therefore 0% of lemmy.world/fedihosting foundation donations are used for lemmy.ml hosting costs.

whether this is something that makes a difference in the end is something you have to decide on your own, but this is still the addressing the frequently mentioned topic of having donations explicitly for development rather than also supporting lemmy.ml operations.

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Ledivin 3 points a year ago

Yes, correct, that's why I'm not donating. I don't want to be paying lemmy.ml.

A small amount of support is still explicit support.

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Lancer 5 points a year ago

This is, unfortunately, the necessary view to take. Lemmy the software is a net positive, but nobody should be giving money to support their extremism and love of censorship, particularly when it happens on what’s arguably the “official” instance.

Numotic and Dessalines actively cultivate very toxic content:

  • Pro-Russia, blaming Ukraine as a Nazi aggressor;
  • Pro-Chinese Communist Party, banning discussion of the mistreatment of the Uighur minority or the anti-democratic takeover of Hong Kong;
  • Anti-Semitic, going way beyond the confines of criticism of the current Israeli government, on to hateful comments about all Israelis as a people, and sometimes Jews in general,
  • Pro-Communism, at times advocating for the violent overthrow of Western governments by Marxist groups.
  • Strongly in favor of left wing dictatorships, like Venezuela, decrying any discussion of human rights and democracy as capitalist propaganda.

If you disagree with these positions, too bad! Because your posts will be deleted, or you’ll get banned, or your instance defederated, from ml.

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nutomic 2 points a year ago

lemmy.ml hosting is only financed by donations via Opencollective. All other donations go exclusively to developer salaries.

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gigachad 35 points a year ago

Give up your admin/mod roles on .ml, be neutral developers, then I am happy to donate.

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Dr_Vindaloo -2 points a year ago

No such thing as neutral.

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khorovodoved -20 points a year ago

They need an instance for test purposes or no development would be done. And they would run such instance as they see fit.

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cm0002 34 points a year ago

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khorovodoved -16 points a year ago

Well, if the instance owner has a political narrative he would push it. Because he believes that it is a good thing. Test instance or not.

The only option I see is that someone else would offer them his instance (which has to be rather popular) for test purposes. But that would not do anything to .ml because then they would just pay for .ml from their pocket (which against comes from development funding).

And denying lemmy development funding would do nothing to .ml because .ml running costs are too small. So it would just continue to work on the latest version with developers hotfixing things only for their instance as they break.

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gigachad 23 points a year ago

But do they need to moderate that instance?

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khorovodoved -12 points a year ago

Why would anyone apoint a moderator he does not agree with?

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hakase 20 points a year ago

Because they're begging for money all over Lemmy and getting laughed at for it because of .ml censorship policies?

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Deestan 31 points a year ago

These money will go to two people who created and actively maintain and promote an instance pretending the brutal murder of Ukranians is not happening but also necessary, and deleting and banning contrary opinions.

No.

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UnculturedSwine 30 points a year ago

I fkn love this community! Just set up yearly dono for 60

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nutomic 0 points a year ago

Thanks!

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trolololol 30 points a year ago

I've made my donation today for the first time.

I find it helpful that we have been keeping people full time, funded by donations. I would hope this model grows, expanding into for example specific features getting their own bucket of money, as we can voice our support for things that can get lost in a backlog.

I'm not sure I've seen how to contribute the old way, by donating time and performing tasks. Not my case, but how would someone get started on that?

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MrKaplan 15 points a year ago

if people want to contribute code, they can check out the various repositories in the LemmyNet GitHub org to see which issues are looking for someone to pick them up.

the main repositories, by language, are:

additionally, there is a range of open source alternative web interfaces and apps that wouldn't mind contributions. some of them are listed here: https://github.com/...

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comfy 7 points a year ago

I’m not sure I’ve seen how to contribute the old way, by donating time and performing tasks. Not my case, but how would someone get started on that?

Good point, it's a bit hidden away: https://join-lemmy.org/...

  • (Formally) Reporting issues
  • Translating
  • Programming and Design
  • Donating

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TimewornTraveler 29 points a year ago

thanks to those who donate and keep this place running, cuz I can't right now :)

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Imhotep 28 points a year ago

I just logged into Liberapay, and then I saw their profile pictures. Remembered I can't donate to tankies (inb4: I didn't say communists) any more I could maga supporters. or IDF apologists

lemmy.ml:

Hey but they're not that bad! Nutomic responded in this thread:

I certainly dont praise or support civilians being displaced from their homes.

Isn't it wonderfully vague? You know who expressed the same sadness about displaced people? guess (I can't find a source/misremembered? my bad)

You can remove all ambiguity by saying who is the unequivocal aggressor responsible for the gruesome death of thousands of young men and civilians in Ukraine.

How's the denazification going, guys?

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endeavor 14 points a year ago

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LoveSausage -18 points a year ago

How much do you get paid to run your smear campaign?

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cm0002 14 points a year ago

!meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works

It's all documented right there, "smear campaign" means to constantly accuse someone of something knowing they actually didn't do it for the purpose of ruining their reputation or other consequence like getting fired

If the subject in question is actually doing the things they're being accused of and can provide evidence then that's wholly justified

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givesomefucks 11 points a year ago

Nutomic responded in this thread:

Apparently (from what .world admins have said in this thread) Nutonic is 1 of 2 developers who are trying to make Lemmy a full time job and take a cut of all donations to facilitate that...

Which makes all their comments insisting lemmy.ml only gets money thru one method look a hell of a lot like intentionally manipulating a user base for financial profit.

Like, the money not going to lemmy.ml but a cut going to two of their main admins personally is a pretty big piece of information they haven't mentioned once.

I don't think anyone saying they don't want to give to lemmy.ml would still be ok with it going to their two main admins' personal accounts instead.

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farcaster 27 points a year ago

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LandedGentry 26 points a year ago

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nutomic 9 points a year ago

Personally I dont do any moderation, other than banning an obvious spam account once in a while. I simply dont have time for it and leave it to other people.

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LandedGentry 7 points a year ago

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MrKaplan 3 points a year ago

this would better be asked on the original post by nutomic: https://lemmy.ml/post/29579005

nutomic previously also shared on matrix that he is not participating in moderation except for removing spam.

edit: commented this before refreshing, so i didn't see nutomic already replied

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NateNate60 25 points a year ago

I donate one euro a month to lemmy.world. It's not a lot but I'm not rolling in cash and I feel like the service is worth paying something for, even if I can only contribute a nominal amount. But I feel like they should have an option to take an entire year's worth of donations at once would be more efficient than a monthly withdrawal.

As it currently stands, a monthly bank transfer of 1 € is taken from my account and I feel like a significant portion of that is going to be taken by bank fees, whereas if they took a single annual transfer of 12 €, they would keep a much larger percentage of the money.

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MrKaplan 8 points a year ago

at least via opencollective there is an option for yearly donations. when using a payment method other than paypal this will be yearly payments.

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NateNate60 3 points a year ago

Apparently I'm not allowed to do that. Do I have to cancel my existing donation first? I don't see a way to do that through Open Collective, I'm guessing I just cancel the direct debit through my bank?

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ruud 2 points a year ago

You should be able to cancel and/or change it:

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LoveSausage -2 points a year ago

I just did crypto transfer

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NateNate60 1 point a year ago

Is that an option? I would gladly do a crypto transfer but I didn't notice it.

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MrKaplan 6 points a year ago

i believe they were confused by the topic of this comment chain, as the main post is about donations towards lemmy development.

lemmy development accepts cryptocurrency donations: https://join-lemmy.org/crypto

lemmy.world/fedihosting foundation does not currently have an option for cryptocurrency donations.

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NateNate60 1 point a year ago

Sounds like a good idea though. I feel like there are a good number of crypto bros on here who would gladly donate more if crypto was an option. Plus it gives people from censored countries a way to anonymously donate

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Birch 24 points a year ago

Toss a coin to your lemmy maintainer, oh valley of shitposts

Just donated a tenner, keep rocking. Also, fuck spez.

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Eheran -1 points a year ago

But why fuck spez but donate to these people? Why not praise spez and fuck these tankies? How are they any better?

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diffaldo 7 points a year ago

They are better because they dont own lemmy and we can easily block their instance.

For reddit avoid posting luigi or elon related content on it you might get your account banned because spez doesnt like it.

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SoftestSapphic 4 points a year ago

I see .ml users all the time.

They aren't blocked.

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Eheran -2 points a year ago

Did you forget all the drama about Luigi here on Lemmy? It is no different than reddit. Better someone who "just" wants money than actively inhumane shit.

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comfy 2 points a year ago

Did you forget all the drama about Luigi here on Lemmy? It is no different than reddit.

You probably have that impression because you're on lemmy.world, which is an unusual instance.

lemmy.dbzero.com (that user's instance) and most other instances never had that drama, we can freely cheer the assassin and criticize Brian Thompson for their hand in mass social murder.

Better someone who “just” wants money

The things they did to get that money were actively inhumane to their users, on a mass scale. We can have strong confidence that the Lemmy devs won't, and in fact can't, do the same.

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comfy 2 points a year ago

But why fuck spez but donate to these people? Why not praise spez and fuck these tankies? How are they any better?

spez is a greedy capitalist who ran reddit for profit. It is a business beholden to venture capital and acts accordingly, enclosing their walled-garden with the API bans, flooding with ads, censoring anti-corporate topics on behalf of the owning class (like support for the Brian Thompson assassination, censoring criticism of Elon Musk) and taking over communities they don't like. Lemmy devs are anti-capitalists running this as a non-profit platform through user donations and non-profit support, so they have an active interest to avoid enshittifying the platform. See also: BlueSky starting to kneel to Turkish censorship to avoid losing profitability, as opposed to Mastodon (founded by an anticapitalist).

And before anyone misreads this and brings up lemmy.ml's bans to try and equivocate that as similar censorship; that is a specific instance running their own rules for their own users, just like blahaj.zone will ban people for anti-trans statements and lemmy.world will ban people for celebrating the assassination of Brian Thompson. The Lemmy software which the devs maintain enables you to post here even if you're banned from the communities they run for their own users.

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Eheran 0 points a year ago

All those anti reddit things you name are better than the inhumane stuff from "our" 2 devs. Being greedy is far less worse than being inhumane and cheering for genocide.

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comfy 1 point a year ago

  1. They have never "cheered for genocide". That's not their position. Here are Dessalines' positions on the matter, none of which cheer for anything.

  2. Apples and oranges. If being "inhumane" is making arguments online to a small forum, then that's clearly less harmful than the mass propaganda machine of reddit supporting the billionaire class, a group who are willingly starving millions to death, rigging democracies worldwide, causing environmental disaster and trying to bring about a fascistic regime in the US and other countries. It's not as simple as spez "just wanting money" or "being greedy", they are part of the owning class and are at war with the worker class, and they are using their position in mass media to exploit their users and actually help make atrocities happen in real life. "Being greedy" isn't an abstract moral failing, that level of capitalist greed kills people.

This is much worse and "inhumane" than two people having political positions you find disturbing.

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nutomic -4 points a year ago

Thanks!

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Epzillon 24 points a year ago

Became a free member on patreon when i first joined lemmy. Completely forgot to actually up the tier. Recurring donations are now on, thanks for the reminder!

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viking 1 point a year ago

I was a paid member which was supposed to give you access to the dev chat on discord, but despite asking a few times and paying for almost half a year, it just never happened. So I couldn't take them seriously.

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ProfHillbilly 23 points a year ago

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yogurt 22 points a year ago

If half the people circlejerking in here were serious they could pay a liberal developer to contribute instead, but somehow I doubt that's happening.

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cronenthal 21 points a year ago

Now I'm supporting lemmy and voyager development. Worth every penny.

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Fizz 2 points a year ago

Extremely based

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Puddinghelmet 20 points a year ago

Can't you lobby with the EU too to fund you since there’s a real need for European social media alternatives to challenge the dominance of US platforms? Will deffo donate!

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nutomic 9 points a year ago

Im not a lobbyist and have no idea how to even get started with that. Feel free to give it a try if you have any contacts in that area.

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Alphane_Moon 6 points a year ago

Why would the EU fund developers who are openly supporting russian imperialist expansion and genocide?

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NocturnalMorning 18 points a year ago

Im okay, was gonna donate. But not if it supports lemmy.ml

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viking 18 points a year ago

I was a paid patreon member which was supposed to give you access to the dev chat on discord, but despite asking a few times and paying for almost half a year, it just never happened. So I couldn't take them seriously.

Since I blocked .ml I can't leave a reply on the original message, and I'm not going to unblock them just because.

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nutomic 13 points a year ago

We dont use discord at all, the chats are on Matrix and accessible for free. I see the membership descriptions on Patreon are wrong, will get those fixed shortly.

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Dadifer 18 points a year ago

Is it possible donate to Lemmy development without contributing to Lemmy.ml?

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MintyFresh 18 points a year ago

Just threw in a couple bucks! Loving Lemmy, it lacks the stench of capitalism that reddit fell victim to. Thank you to everyone who makes this place work!

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nutomic 1 point a year ago

Thanks, and youre welcome!

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njordomir 17 points a year ago

I donated a few bucks.

I see the controversy in the comments section, but none of us would be here if it wasn't for the work of the devs.

I remember internet forums in the 90s and early 2000s and I've played MMO civilization roleplaying Minecraft servers with IRL nazis, takies, fascists, etc. Some of those communities made 4Chan look like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. From my own experience ml has "character" and so do beehaw and dbzer0. These cultural differences are enabled by decentralized social media. There's validity to the idea that the sign-up process should capture more of these nuances. You don't have to look any further than your own instance to find bad takes and imperfect admins and moderators, but they're still the best of the best because they actually did it and the people talking about them didn't. Maybe I'm uneducated on this and I'll change my mind, but as it stands I'm cool until they force tank emojis on .world users.

I do think it's good that this type of talk happens, as it allows instances to develop a reputation.

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nthavoc 13 points a year ago

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viking 16 points a year ago

Meh, you can block the instance and still see the value in the project. I'd rather have both than neither.

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endeavor 14 points a year ago

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nthavoc 7 points a year ago

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SoftestSapphic 2 points a year ago

It doesn't stop their users from coming over to our spaces and shitting all over the place

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OsrsNeedsF2P 13 points a year ago

Lemmy.ml monthly server costs: like 30$/mo

Cost to develop a Reddit: like 30M/yr

Price Lemmy devs are doing it for: 3000$/mo

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nthavoc 4 points a year ago

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OsrsNeedsF2P 1 point a year ago

You're not federated with Lemmygrad.ml or Hexbear.net, are you? If you think Lemmy.ml is bad for their communist views, you aint seen nothing yet

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nthavoc 7 points a year ago

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nutomic -5 points a year ago

lemmy.ml hosting is only financed by donations via Opencollective. All other donations go exclusively to developer salaries.

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nthavoc 11 points a year ago

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givesomefucks 9 points a year ago

It seems like they're twisting words...

The "developer salaries" appear to go to that account and another lemmy.ml admin.

So they're all over this thread saying lemmy.ml only gets donations from that one method, and failing to mention who the "developers" are.

So they're telling people to support thru those methods, because they personally still get a cut as a Lemmy ml developer.

So no matter how you give, lemme.ml admins get some of that money.

Which is personally why I'm not. Maybe if that person who is personally receiving a cut of the funds wasn't constantly lying about it.

But what does anyone expect from lemmy.ml?

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CooperRedArmyDog -1 points a year ago

They quite literaly in the post said who the devs are, I mean if your issue is that the devs have a test bed. I it seems like you unwilling to split between wht they are asking for "Survive making lemmy the program full time" with there free time that being a mod of .ml

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Muyal 13 points a year ago

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avidamoeba 12 points a year ago

The purity testing and holier-than-thou attacks going on in these fundraising threads are truly counterproductive. We're not strong enough as an ecosystem and community yet to be able to afford this luxury. If this is coming from the left, I think you should consider the larger goal here.

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rtxn 29 points a year ago

I have personal friends in Ukraine who were displaced from their home by the invaders. I cannot morally justify giving any kind of benefit to the people who would praise or support their actions.

Lemmy is just a thing, it can cease to exist for all I care.

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4n41y4no5 3 points a year ago

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4n41y4no5 -2 points a year ago

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sudneo 6 points a year ago

Kyiv*

Yes, forced conscription is horrible.

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nutomic -3 points a year ago

I certainly dont praise or support civilians being displaced from their homes. Maybe there are some users who make such insensitive comments, but it doesnt mean that I agree with them.

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rtxn 14 points a year ago

That sentiment hardly shines through when the flagship instance, intentionally or not, has been allowed to become a haven for tankies and Putinist agitators.

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endeavor 11 points a year ago

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cm0002 5 points a year ago

https://lemmy.world/post/29072279

Maybe you should check in with your partner dessalines and your other admin davel then, because there's a whole lot of modlog entries and anti-Ukraine propaganda spreading with their name on em

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Alphane_Moon 2 points a year ago

Get fucked. You support the russian invasion. Millions had to leave Donbas during russian occupation. Tens of million will have to leave if russia succeeds.

You want me and my family to be sent to a russian torture camp for speaking Ukrainian. You deny our country's right to self determination with your stupid "muh BIA!!!" bullshit and support the extermination of our culture and language.

Hope one day you and your fellow tankies will experience what you wish for me and my fellow citizens.

Fuck you!

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nutomic -2 points a year ago

I dont want anything bad to happen to you or your family, and you have every right to live in peace in your homecountry. It is unfortunate that you have to live through that. Best of luck!

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GratefullyGodless 15 points a year ago

But, it's counter-productive to donate money to Ukraine to aid in their defense against the Russian Invasion of their country, and then support an instance that is actively spreading Russian propaganda against Ukraine. Seems like you have to make a choice there, and I choose to side with the people being wronged.

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RandomVideos -9 points a year ago

But is not donating going to change anything?

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SoftestSapphic 4 points a year ago

A lot of people have a problem giving their money to people who have such horrible beleifs.

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toy_boat_toy_boat -16 points a year ago

sorry to put this down on your comment

those aunts and uncles and brothers and daughters that you're all so mad at and won't ever talk to again. that all won't matter soon.

those people next door who fly a flag that rustles your jimmies. or the bumper stickers about who to encourage. that all won't matter soon.

those co-workers you can't stand who drive you crazy and won't let you eat lunch alone. or the managers that bug you to shit. that all won't matter soon.

what WILL matter is that you know each other. it'll gauge how you should barter with them.

none of this shit is going to matter in a little while. mark my words.

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echodot 12 points a year ago

What are you saying, there's going to be the rapture?

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toy_boat_toy_boat 2 points a year ago

i'm so glad that the lemmy community keeps me in check when i drink too much and start talking like that guy on the corner..

i THINK i was trying to say that if shit hits the fan, nobody is going to care about all this shit. people are stirring up stupid shit because they're bored and ignored and undervalued and underestimated. brothers and sisters would quickly resolve thanksgiving dinner argument issues if they ever needed to actually kill and cook a turkey together.

edit - unless i'm mistaken, the rapture isn't actually a thing.

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endeavor 10 points a year ago

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LoveSausage -28 points a year ago

Maybe you should go back to reddit? Stormfront is probably more to your liking?

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endeavor 19 points a year ago

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nutomic -1 points a year ago

Then why was I told me and all my people need to be killed by russians by a ml user this morning?

Please link this comment so I can handle it. I am certainly against any and all kinds of genocide.

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endeavor 6 points a year ago

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LoveSausage -16 points a year ago

Why do you use such a terrible place like Lemmy then?

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endeavor 11 points a year ago

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mnemonicmonkeys 5 points a year ago

The "everyone I disagree with is a Nazi" argument? Seriously? You can't do better than that?

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kinther 10 points a year ago

Currently donating $5 a month to lemmy.world. I'll continue for the foreseeable future.

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IndustryStandard -27 points a year ago

Why not get a Reddit membership at that point?

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kinther 16 points a year ago

Because I want to support Lemmy

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IndustryStandard -9 points a year ago

Giving money to .world is basically the opposite of supporting Lemmy.

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kinther 10 points a year ago

It keeps the lights on for the instance I use. If you read the post above, they also send a small amount to the Lemmy devs.

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milicent_bystandr 9 points a year ago

Then why are you on .world?

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 9 points a year ago

Ah shit. I'm currently a starving musician. I'll scrape you off some of the next gig.

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endeavor 3 points a year ago

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4n41y4no5 -5 points a year ago

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endeavor 5 points a year ago

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4n41y4no5 -1 points a year ago

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LoveSausage -5 points a year ago

But you have no problem whatsoever in using the services these horrible people provide you? Why are you here?

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echodot 1 point a year ago

The irony of somebody went from a DE instance advocating for painting everyone with the same brush.

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cm0002 3 points a year ago

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greencactus 8 points a year ago

I donated! Great job, and I really appreciate your work.

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JackLSauce 8 points a year ago

Is it possible to donate a server instance?

i.e. Reserve one for 12 months on Digital Ocean, Hezner, etc and transfer ownership

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suodrazah 7 points a year ago

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mysticpickle 5 points a year ago

Ew no. Rather see dev work on Lemmy stop than support tankies 🤢

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Dju 20 points a year ago

Then support mbin and piefed?

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superkret 6 points a year ago

Then what are you doing here?

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kata1yst 3 points a year ago

Threadiverse != Lemmy

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superkret 4 points a year ago

You're on sh.itjust.works . The other poster is on lemmy.ca .
That's both Lemmy.

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kata1yst 0 points a year ago

Never claimed it wasn't?

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mnemonicmonkeys -3 points a year ago

Off topic, but can we please stop calling it the "Threadiverse"? Meta had no hand in developing it, and don't think associating with them is a good look

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kata1yst 3 points a year ago

Threads when talking about discussion threading goes back to usenet & email group days. Meta co-opted the term.

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Elkot 2 points a year ago

I'm skint sorry

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NotForYourStereo 1 point a year ago

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AFC1886VCC 1 point a year ago

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Enzy -1 points a year ago

No.

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Shardikprime -3 points a year ago

Lol no

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umbrella -7 points a year ago

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Vanilla_PuddinFudge -9 points a year ago

Lotta no's based on people who can't stand being in a room with other people just because of different political beliefs. I don't follow .ml's philosophy, and I don't care. Take em, leave em. Whatever.

They aren't why I'm not on Reddit.

Remember why you're here. If you can't handle discourse with people who see the world differently then go back to Mastodon and save us your intolerance. Discourse is the lifeblood of a site like this, different opinions are part of being human. Grow up.

but t-they support such and such genocide!!

Then protest them louder. Don't bring the rest of us down over it, not that it isn't mostly sensationalist to begin with.

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justineie_bobeanie -14 points a year ago

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gamermanh -15 points a year ago

God, no. If Lemmy today is gonna be all spam of the shitheads begging for money then I guess it's closer to death than I thought

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comfy 41 points a year ago

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gamermanh -24 points a year ago

There are other services that can provide what Lemmy does without supporting their admins where your money would be better off going. Or just use adblockers like an adult, lol

That's actually been my plan, jump ship when .ml's toxicity finally sank Lemmy, cuz I'm too lazy to do anything until shit actually happens

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TheTechnician27 16 points a year ago

I use Lemmy despite these alternatives existing.

I contribute nothing in terms of development or money to these Lemmy alternatives or to Lemmy.

If ads have to come, I'll just use adblockers "like an adult" to the detriment of other users.

How is running ads on instances supposed to fuel development costs when everyone uses an adblocker? Who cares, fuck you.

Then I'm going to go out of my way to bitch and moan about people contributing to Lemmy's development so there's a corner of the Internet that isn't suffocated with corporate garbage.

$100 says you're only here because you got booted from Reddit for shitty behavior, not unfair treatment, the rampant enshittification, or a belief that FOSS or the Fediverse are better. Just donated another $10 to compensate for your "the 'F' in FOSS stands for freeloading" ass.

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gamermanh -12 points a year ago

$100 says you're only here because you got booted from Reddit for shitty behavior, not unfair treatment, the rampant enshittification, or a belief that FOSS or the Fediverse are better

Cool, send me my money cuz you can trace this account right back to the API incident on Reddit. Nice try, dipshit

Just donated another $10 to compensate for your "the 'F' in FOSS stands for freeloading" ass.

Cool, waste your money, stay mad you pathetic bootlicker

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thoro 14 points a year ago

Then jump

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gamermanh -5 points a year ago

Does it look like it's sunk? I get that you .ml people aren't the brightest bulbs in the box but you can usually do better than that

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LandedGentry 13 points a year ago

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TheTechnician27 5 points a year ago

Personal anecdote: after going vegan a few years ago, a lot of criticisms of veganism I've seen have taught me that these kinds of holier-than-thou attacks of less-than-perfect action often come from people who don't want to take any action themselves.

Cognitive dissonance arises when they see people taking action feel good about what they're doing, and they suddenly feel deep down like they could be doing something wrong by not taking action. To resolve it, in lieu of taking action, they justify why they shouldn't, usually "well that's not literally perfect, so actually why should I do anything?" Meanwhile, the people taking the less-than-perfect action are even more painfully aware of its flaws but are putting in the work to do better than they would've been otherwise.

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gamermanh -6 points a year ago

Putting a lot of words in my mouth there, bud

My problem is with this specific platforms owners, and I never advocated for the alternative of corp sites

Calm down and think for 3 seconds next time

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LandedGentry 21 points a year ago

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gamermanh -3 points a year ago

but how the hell else do you expect this to get done?

I dont, specifically because of who the money goes to

We can’t just expect people to work for free all the time in a predominantly capitalist world. They have to eat.

They can also just not continue development if they don't get the money. That's a fine option, too

Are you developing the platform? Do you have another idea for How to pay their bills?

No, and many, but it's also not my concern at all given the shitstains the developers are

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LandedGentry 8 points a year ago

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gamermanh -5 points a year ago

Oh no! Not like there are alternatives we could swap to immediately!

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3dmvr -3 points a year ago

they expect other ppl to tap in, they think they are stopping other ppl from helping lol

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Serinus 10 points a year ago

.ml is needed for development. I'd support its existence even if I'd rather defederate.

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gamermanh 16 points a year ago

.ml is needed for development

An instance is, it does not have to be theirs or run the way they do

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hakase 11 points a year ago

Sounds like a really good reason to not make that incredibly important test instance so shitty and toxic then, but that's the choice they made.

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CooperRedArmyDog -8 points a year ago

I know your not from .world, but if we are talking about toxic instances, in my experence the worst ones have been beehaw and world.

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hakase 13 points a year ago

Holy shit, from your comment history it does not surprise me at all that you think that.

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henfredemars 4 points a year ago

I mean, that’s a fundamental part of many open source projects. I recently got an email from a few asking for the same because of economic troubles, and many donors are feeling the squeeze right now and cut their donations first.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that a project is about to fail. But it’s often the case that with better support, they could aspire to do more.

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3dmvr 3 points a year ago

they either have insane funding and no releases, or low to no funding and constant releases lol

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gamermanh -7 points a year ago

Spamming the entire page of every instance is not a fundamental part of FOSS projects, and is just another example of the dogshit Lemmy devs being dogshit

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CooperRedArmyDog 2 points a year ago

You do realise that it was each instance admin that posted outside of .ml They only posted once. I feel like this is obvious, but posting once and having others cross post is not spamming

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youvegotmoxie -18 points a year ago

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Alborlin -38 points a year ago

No i will never donate , this format is just jerking off Linux enthusiast, and every time I say Linux in unusable I get negatively marked. Content on this is not so good.its many time repeat of Reddit. There is not a easy way or guide on how to use Lemmy and connect to all differn t forums within or even find them .

In total this format is useful but not encouraging. So no donations

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