Don't use PSDs? I know people will say, "it's not as simple as that, they're industry standard", but if you say you'll only accept professional work in an open format, and you're the client, you have the control to change things.
It's not about not using PSD.
GIMP is all about letting people to open and edit any image files. Whether it is a medical images format (DICOM), bitmap image only used on smart message, (Nokia's Over The Air Bitmap), to open experimental niche format (Jeff's Image Format).
Maybe that's what it was. It doesn't necessarily need to be that going forward, as project putlooks anf goals change with time.
Also editing is quite a lot of more work to support than mere viewing. As all tools and actions need to behave correctly - not jusbt the renderer.
And something proprietary can hadly be a "industry standard". It can be "most common" or a "de facto standard". But all "industry standards" are by definition open as any industry worth its weight doesn't rely on or include a single point of failure anywhere within itself.
"It doesn't necessarily need to be that going forward"
This part does not make any sense. Making GIMP to be able to support any image format is a good thing. Especially for future file preservation.
If it was merely industry standard, if a software already good, people will just use the default format. It already happen with various industries, like comic making in Asia using .CLIP (Clip Studio Paint) instead of .PSD
Honestly so much better when they moved away from the "everything is a floating window" interface. I can find stuff now.
Funnily enough, back when it was floating by default, I always looked for the toggle to make it one window. But when they made it a single window by default, I found myself toggling it back to floating.
I kinda like having both options. Floating could still make some sense, and it can do cool things that a single window can't.
It was in the ballpark of 2014-15ish IIRC, so a little over ten years
Not to down on them too much but this comment is kind of funny in the context of a 30 year old program.
I used to work in schools IT and I managed to get a lot of FOSS tools into regular use amongst both staff and students; Audacity, Libre Office, Firefox, even Debian in a few IT labs... but the one that never stuck was GIMP because no teacher is going to tell their class they'll be using GIMP today.
I know this is a tired point and will probably never be fixed, but that name causes more problems than anything else.
I work in municipal government, and I just renamed the shortcuts on my work computer to avoid having to explain it to another mayor or councilmember. I think they're adding Photoshop to the bufget anyway next year. GIMP is good for free, but I have to admit Photoshop really is the king of photo editors.
I do really like Inkscape though.
The FOSS software I find to be the most impressive, however, is QGIS. I have ArcGIS and QGIS both installed on my machine and use them both heavily. For data processing, I usually go with QGIS, but then I make most of my deliverables in ArcGIS because it has a way better layout editor and lots of other software and angencies require me to use ESRI REST services.
But I can go with the cheapest ESRI licenses because I don't have to pay an extra 4 grand a year for the "Erase" tool when I can punch a hole in a shapefile in QGIS for free. And I openly said as much in my last meeting with ESRI when they were trying to get me to upgrade.
This is always interesting to hear because as someone who went school in a non English speaking country, GIMP was obviously never an issue. In most of the world the name isn't an issue.
I only learned about that alternative meaning years later.
But for millions of people it is… the fact that it isn’t for some cultures does not negate the influence for those where it is. Companies like Apple will skip numbers and names if it’s a problem in one place (like say China) because they realize more adoption is useful. Old Gimp heads though just whine about America or some shit and wonder why nobody fucking uses it after 30 years.
Everything about this project is always saying they’re looking for input and design ideas but their old-ass users shoot down every person that has anything to say, many of whom have ideas from working as actual professionals for those same thirty years.
gimp
G I M P
G(ee) I (A)M P(ee)
...
How dare you make me sound that out in my head.
Is it derogatory?
Definitely thought it was a humiliation thing
Some consider it an ableist term
proffessors could say "we'll be using Gnu Image processing" or "Gnu Imp" if they wanted to get lame about it. The real big knoggin move is to just call it GIMP and silently dare your students to act like children
Kids would eat you alive.
We should rename it the Gnu Image Leveraging Framework.
What puritanism does to a mf
Yep, always felt the same way. Can’t be seriously suggested in a professional environment simply because of its name. Whole project been shooting itself in the foot with a machine gun since day 1.
I tried Debian for two hours and said fuck this and I went straight back to Ubuntu. I might try it again when I know more about it. For now I'm still very much a noob. Debian's still Ubuntu's boring cousin to me and I'm working on making it the fun one I want to invite over.
Nope. You just made the mistake of learning something else first and expecting other tools to match it
This is me with all CAD software 😭
My way into CAD software was 1. Dealing with DXF editors like QCAD. 2. Trying to tackle parametric CAD, I ran Onshape's tutorials, they have pretty good technique tutorials, like how to draft a paperclip, that are applicable to most parametric CAD packages. Then learning how FreeCAD's spreadsheet works.
FreeCAD has a full-on spreadsheet built in, now it's feature poor compared to Excel or LOCalc but you can store and calculate dimensions there and then use them in the main drawing. Other software has features that accomplish this but it's not as flexible and familiar as a spreadsheet. FreeCAD has some usability issues but everything else out there is either drawbackware or subscription.
Expecting it to be the exact same and working in an expected way are different. Blender used to select with RMB instead of LMB like every other program in existence, is it really the users fault for finding that stupid?
Following expectations and having a "smooth" workflow is something to aim for unless the standard is really bad. No need to fix what ain't broken
This is true of pretty much all software. So many people expect to be able to pick up LibreOffice office and use it like they use MS office and then get immediately irritated the button doesn’t look exactly the same and give up.
I got irritated by the differences, but I was more irritated by Microslop, so it was the lesser of two irritants. I mostly figured it out eventually. Finding H2 is always at the bottom of the entire style list though for some fucking reason like there's no excuse for that kind of mild irritation
I remember a guy telling me back in 2015 or so that Gimp was designed for having 2 monitors. At first I tought it made no sense but some yers after I got the chance to try and it way more comfortable to put all toollboxes in a separate monitor.
That explains a lot of stuff actually
There's a name for this phenomenon: the Software Imprinting Dilemma.
This is why most tech companies (including Adobe) are so hell bent on having schools teach just their software and their way of doing things. An entire generation of clients guaranteed for life.
Again, no, because Affinity is more similar to photoshop.
What exactly, is the "crap" part of gimps UX? I never had an issue with it.
Then again I really liked it when all the elements are not in the same space, it is very similar to high production work using multi monitors and having the actual canvas the focus.
As always, it depends what you're using it for and what your UI expectations are. But for me in particular, some people I've worked with, and presumably others, it can definitely "compete". It does everything I need it to, and my workflow is faster. And I can throw a copy onto any old machine without having to jump through licensing hoops or download a "download manager" or whatever bolt-on shit PS needs these days.
Early on, for me, the killer feature was that it started up about 10x as quickly as PS, so I could start it, work, close it, get on with other work, whereas PS was so drearily slow that I'd leave it running all day rather than wait for it to launch, which meant that I had about half my RAM available for other things. It's better now, and a lot of that has been obsoleted by faster CPUs and more resources in everyone's computer, but I still remember how much of a chore it was to use PS.
First thing I always do is set icon scheme to have colors. I don't know who thought monochrome for the tools was a good idea, but it takes me twice as long to find anything.
Personally, I struggled somewhat until I've found the Search and Run a Command action. It's bound to / on the keyboard by default I think. Otherwise accessible via Menu > Help > Search and Run a Command.
So if I'm clueless where a certain action is in the menu, I just press /, then type my action as I think it could be named, then try it out. This, together with simply my memory of how to do things, covers 97% of my needs. One time out of 20 or 50 I encounter something that I don't know, at which point I duckduckgo, and the experience can be much worse.
Would you say this flow sucks? Or actually, it's fine? It's up to you to decide that.
which part do you dislike? maybe because it fits my mental model very well, but i find the ui to be very intuitive overall. keyboard shortcuts are also pretty simple..
and there's some user made config that makes its ui and keybinds work like adobe photoshop if thats what youre used to
Finding things just feels unintuitive. Like I can never find how to do a basic task like cropping. Or resizing a layer, it does shit like grabs the layer under sometimes, ir just resizes the selection box instead of the selection.
When did it suck?
I've been using it professionally for the last 3 years or so and it's no worse for UX than Photoshop, the 'industry standard'.
Both GIMP and photoshop are very sophisticated and technical software (although Photoshop is becoming less so I should add).
People who want a leaner set of tools should have a look at something like Tux Paint.
I've been using GIMP for over a decade. It's slowly starting to become one of the leading sources of frustration in my computing life. The more I learn about it the less it makes any sense.
Not trying to be negative here. Just saying that a modernization is much needed and I'm really excited for this.
I love GIMP and no amount of tedious naysaying will ever change my mind
I did a few tutorials years ago. I realized that the way it did things was different from Photoshop and, in some ways, better. I could appreciate some of the design choices.
The problem is that most people learn PS first and then don't learn Gimp at all, and then when they find out Gimp doesn't work like Photoshop, they decide that it sucks.
I've been using it for decades.
If they'd make the macroing system idiot proof, maybe talk to some portrait photographers about how they use Photoshop and help them achieve their workflows, they could seriously shut down some Adobe.
Yo same!
The UI needs a global overhaul since the day one and still nobody talks about it
@BlackLaZoR @Vosh I think lots of people talk about it. :)
We have a dedicated UX site for people share to feedback on that very topic, which we try to implement as we can: https://gitlab.gnome.org/Teams/GIMP/Design/gimp-ux/-/work/_items
The hope is that over time, designers will get more comfortable and work on larger design challenges (like how new code contributors start small and hopefully grow to develop more complex features)
I can do loads of stuff despite GIMP's efforts to stop me.
No it's not just an on/off toggle. You'd have to uninstall the plugin. Install/Uninstall instructions are on the repo page. https://github.com/Diolinux/PhotoGIMP
I've never understood the purpose of PhotoGimp. I get why it exists. But it doesn't do anything magical that GIMP isn't already designed to let you do in the first place...which is move around, open, close and organize any window or dock into any place you want.
Anyone who has used GIMP for more than a few days has long since organized it to their own personal workflow; even some that look like photoshop.
The same goes for keyboard shortcuts. You can change literally everything about how GIMP looks anytime you want. So why lock yourself into some script that makes it look like a clone of some corporate crap, and worse...donate to the guy who designed said script as though he made something significant that no one else could achieve.
It's very existence is a lie. Users aren't locked into anything and he didn't do some magic to change that. It's literally how GIMP is designed to be customized.
Play with it. Have fun with it. That's the entire point.
It's basically just a drop in configuration to make it look and feel more like the Photoshop interface. Can you accomplish the same with tinkering? Sure. Do I want the spend all day trying to make it look pretty when I need to actually be working in the software? Hell no. Just drop in the plugin and get to work. It has it's place. It would be less necessary if GIMP default layout didn't suck right out of the box.
Leaving this here for Photoshop converts
https://github.com/Diolinux/Photogimp
I use Affinity full time at the moment, but if they ever go paid, I’m running straight to GIMP.
i completely switched to Affinity suit some 3 years ago at work. I was so excited when the affinity4linux install script dropped. but performance makes it near useless. slow and stuttering.
here is for hoping gimp and inkscape can one day match.
It is shocking how well-designed the Affinity apps feel on the iPad. I'm not entirely fond of everything being stuffed away in menus, but I see why they did it, and overall I've rarely felt so positively surprised about pleasant UX.
Now if only they hadn't been bought by Canva… well, at least I still have my old Affinity 2 Suite.
Blender is astounding at how much it can do, but boy does it feel like a project that suffered major scope creep. There seems to be years worth of "but what if it could also do this?" attached to it. As a novice Blender user I still find the UI incredibly difficult to work with.
I'm hundreds of hours in and I still sometimes accidentally hit the wrong hotkey and spend 39 minutes figuring out why edit mode doesn't edit anymore, or why I can't weight paint in weight mode.
Feature discovery has become more organic and less "unfuck blender" though, so that's nice.
The grass is uh, slightly less brown on the other side I guess?
Phenomenal program though.
Different project scope tho.
Krita does not support random niche format like GIMP.
Yes but the UI is 💯 easier to use.
The number 1 problem with GIMP is poor UI in my experience.
Easier interface AND anime aesthetics? Sign me up.
If they add the feature to set white point in the level tool I'm there. Last I checked they had some bullshit brush-off about how it wasn't relevant because it's designed for drawing or some bollocks.
Sorry that my sketches were on paper that wasn't pure white, I guess?
Now you got me.
no it isnt. we keep hearing this and no, they never have a massive upgrade. that project doesnt do massive. that's not how it's ever be run. its stable, predictable, sane, but ugly things we have all hated forever will never be massively revamped in a single update.
ugly things will never be massively revamped teamspeak
@janus2 @Vosh You'll be happy to know it's in the cards. Proof of Concept now that we have vector layers: https://fosstodon.org/...
I haven't touched it lately since a new contributor was interested in implementing it, but one way or the other I hope to get it into 3.4.
Or, hear me out, a tool that draws a circle.
It is okay to say that GIMP can technically do this, and also that it needs a straight up circle tool. Not having a live preview of what you are doing is not good UX in this situation.
Still bothered it doesn't have a preview tho
I think that's the new page : https://testing.gimp.org/...
@Hadriscus @phoenixz Just FYI, that's from our testing page (note the subdomain), so it'll give you a 404 again once we push it from drafts to the live site.
Logo change!
For the file format, would have been JSON instead XML not the better format? Its lighter and easier to parse and write, meaning more performant than XML.
IMHO: XML is superior as a document storage format. JSON is superior as a data transfer format.
XML is not really superior to JSON as an image editing file format. EDIT: XML is better, if you want to keep a readable source format with markup. But that is not what a format for an image editing tool like GIMP should be needed for in my opinion.
No, they are both not really suitable for that. But I don't see where the link in the OP implies they plan to store binary image data in XML, they're probably going to store that in a binary format and use XML to describe relationships and other metadata.
@schnurrito @thingsiplay Yes, the XML is for file structure descriptions not binary data.
The GEGL buffers we use for image data in GIMP can be synced across files, so this new format will allow us to quickly auto-save the image/layer/etc to file as you make edits. Still in-progress work, but it's really cool.
I’m gunna disagree with you XML comes with validators and versioning as part of the XML spec. You can validate XML files against XSD descriptors that can be published and even referenced by the XML file.
The only downside of XML over json is that XML is verbose AF.
Strict validators, versioning, checking, and definitions is EXACTLY what you want in a storage format.
ODF is also XML. It makes sense here.
More information for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_Schema_(W3C)
JSON comes with builtin data formats that XML lacks, that's why you have such overhead with additional validation. Everything in XML is treated as strings, and there are lot of stuff like entities that is totally unneeded for a file format like in GIMP. XML Schema is needed because the format is extremely complicated unlike JSON, if you have no other validation. GIMP itself has validation builtin already.
I found a Stack Overflow thread where people discuss this and actually test it. Further down the page is a 2026 test. The results are it's basically the same, very little practical difference in normal usage. If you're auto saving a file every 30 seconds you will not notice any difference between XML and JSON.
Personally, I like XML more for data files like this. I would not reach for JSON as my first thought for deserealizing a complex object hierarchy. Stuff like, a polygon can have a drawing of type vector which can have n paths which each have exactly 2 points… easy to store and validate in XML. Quite messy and complicated in JSON.
<Drawing type="polygon">
<Line color="#fed1aa">
<Point x="6" y="7" />
<Point x="69" y="420" />
</Line>
</Drawing>
Performance matters a lot, because program can autosave in quick sessions after simple steps. Even more important if multiple images are edited or loaded. While this is not the biggest improvement, it is still something to keep in mind. Performance should always be a priority. Programs will keep expanding and add bloat over time, so its good to have a format like that in mind.
You should always measure first before blindly following dogmas.
Then you follow it by doubting it without measuring:
I doubt that the choice of serialization format is what dominates processor time in this case.
Also note I was not just speaking of today, but with future additions and changes. You can't measure the future, but you can plan ahead and build upon a good foundation, that the small format can be used for extending it in future. That's the idea. Also to test what you suggest they have to build the entire system years and waste lot of time and effort.
i've used GIMP since 2017 bc photoshop was ridiculisly expensive and GIMP is free. i still use it. yes its ugly, but it works :3
It would be cool if GIMP's new format could remember the undo history. I sometimes save edited images as XCF projects so I can quickly make a tweak and re-export it if I need to, but if you do something like crop, color grade, etc., and then save it, you can't undo that later when you reopen the project file because the original, unmodified image data has been lost. You can work around this somewhat by saving unmodified versions of something to its own disabled/invisible layer, but it would make things easier if there was some kind of undo history preservation so you could open a project and sift thru the history of operations performed on the image.
Are they going to upgrade the name as well?
Or else it will be a sub-module.
Or: Graphics, Images, Media & Print
Yeah, now I'm just gonna get screenshots of this app.
That would produce so many priceless weirded out faces when you tell someone you love GIMP and use that acronym and they don't know what you are referring to.
That's a US defaultism issue
It was created in the US and named in specific reference to the offensive meaning of the word, so I would say that makes it pretty relevant.
Why is a sexual term automatically offensive?
Being sexual doesn’t automatically make it offensive, it just makes it unprofessional. As software that is seeking widespread adoption, its acceptance in professional environments matters. I could make a program called Skrotum if I thought it was funny, but I wouldn’t be surprised when people are hesitant to recommend it to others because of the name I chose.
What makes it offensive is that it’s a slur for handicapped people. That’s the origin of the BDSM term and the use that was popularized by the character in Pulp Fiction that was specifically referenced by the creators of GIMP.
Because he lives in a fucked up puritan place.
That means shit for FOSS. AND the Evil Empire is dying.
Why should they change the name just for the vanity of Americans who have a dual meaning for the word, and make it difficult for the whole rest of the world to find tutorials and documentation going back decades?
It's not just awkward for Americans, but for the entire English speaking world - at least 470 million people. How can anyone seriously recommend a business use a program called GIMP? It is a massive hurdle to adoption in the corporate world. They should change the name, or at least create a business-oriented alias.
English is diverse language and each regional English have their own offensive world that have different meaning in different English speaking area.
Maybe you should meet more Indian English speaker and Singaporean English speaker. Heck, Australian English invent various offensive word.
How would changing the name make it more awkward? Giving up a huge market for no reason other than old nerds crying about a change.
I'm in the UK. I use it as my primary image editor on my work computers. Should we be avoiding using LaTeX too because in a different context it's a kink thing?
It just seems such a weird thing to be prudish about in this day and age. English words are regularly contextual and in a business environment why would one go to the NSFW context as default?
I mean my business has no problem using it here in the motherland of the English language...?
Any time we talk to a client about it they are just happy to hear that we're using software that doesn't ingest their work into AI, crash in the middle of consultations, and produces working files that will be usable forever.
I do wonder how much of this is the seeming aversion to context that a subset of Americans seem to have. The meaning of words varies by context, that's like, a normal thing in English. If I said in a meeting that I'd been "pissing about the office whilst waiting for John to be done in his other meeting", that doesn't mean I'd been urinating on the carpets!
Edit: another funny piss example - if I'd spent my holiday learning to jetski should I avoid telling colleagues how I've discovered I enjoy watersports?
A gimp is a sex thing in one context but that's clearly not the context one would be discussing in terms of software, so why does it matter?
Why? It describes succinctly what the app does.
gimp /gĭmp/
noun
A narrow flat braid or rounded cord of fabric used for trimming.
A limp or a limping gait.
A person who limps.
I suppose the association with limping is a bit unfortunate. Although GIMP is an acronym.
The fact that a particular sub-culture has its own slang meaning for the word is irrelevant.
Wouldn't it be easier to recommend it and if they give you a look about the name you act like you've no idea what they're talking about?
This comes up every time GIMP is mentioned. To be honest, outside US and UK (and few others) for the rest of the world the word GIMP has no negative meaning (no meaning at all). So, yeah, maybe who cares about the name? Well, change it if it's really a problem. But, is it really a problem?
Fair point is GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program) doesn't sound as a reasonable acronym. I would maybe find a better acronym, but changing the name itself feels like changing the name of the town of Bra in Italy or the town of Fuck in Austria, or why not, even the town of Love in Sweden... Good luck if we need to only find and use names that do not offend anybody in any language of the world.
Krita, the main FOSS competitor to GIMP, feels a much worse sounding name to me. By the way, i read GIMP with a soft G (like a j) not even as English speakers do pronounce it.
Honestly I think some people just want to be offended. "Oh I can't use this in class because of the name" is complete nonsense. If the faculty are going to immediately assume you're doing weird sex things with the kids then you've got bigger communication problems.
outside US and UK (and few others)
If we're considering just the US, Canada, UK, NZ and Australia, that's at least 470 million people for whom the name is problematic. As an enthusiastic Australian user, there's no way I would recommend a program called GIMP to my higher-ups.
Unlike the towns of Bra or Fuck in Austria, the acronym GIMP was chosen specifically because of its edgy double meaning.
in corporate environments i've worked in in aussie for decades, the worst you can expect is a chuckle at the name.
yes, i'm sure there are more prudish organisations.
but it's 100% wrong to equate all english speaking nations to the US dip shitery.
getting the average graphic designer to consider anything other then adobe is like getting IT to consider anything other then MS... that is holding adoption back far more then anything to do with the name.
GYMP? 💪✨🤭
Is anyone interested in having GIMP with another name doing the work to make that happen?
@SkavarSharraddas @Vosh @AllNewTypeFace Actually, there's been "official" development on that front: https://www.gimp.org/...
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The battle tested strategy of only providing old standards to others, like MS does.
save