Second largest Lemmy instance preemptively un-friends Facebook
3 years ago by ruffsl to c/fediverse
Lemmy.ml has now blocked Threads.net
The admins stated on Mastodon that they're not going to defederate until something happens. Knowing Meta they shouldn't give them the chance.
Here's the link: https://mastodon.world/@mwadmin/110654590632768079
Currently you can with with Lemmy Connect. Maybe with others as well, given the amount of apps coming out by the day. And I'm guessing they'll fold the feature into Lemmy/Kbin proper sometime in the future.
Currently, Connect has that option, but it doesn't actually block the instance, it just doesn't show feeds from that instance. So, technically, the two instances are still federated.
Same, I was only donating $2 a month but I'm not alone in finding this completely unacceptable. I applied at lemmy.ml. It's the scorpion and the frog with these people suggesting we should just wait and see.
"~Let's see if Zuck doesn't act like an anti-competitive asshole this time" <--where the hell is the logic in that?!
How does one change instances?
How do you move? I signed up through .world but don't want a chance of touching the poo (meta).
You just make a new account with another instance. You get about the same content as before.
This behavior is why the fediverse alienate users and makes it hostile for new people to join.
They didn't do anything, yet. Give them the chance but start with 2 strikes on their account already. They fuck up, THEN you defederate. Innocent until proven otherwise.
Edit: go on, downvote me. Show me your face. Show me how you're all against growth on Lemmy and niceness to each other.
Innocent until proven otherwise.
There are many years of proof already about facebook/meta acting very maliciously, actively breaking laws and being fined for it, is that not proof enough? How many more do you need before you can say they're not innocent at all?
Innocent until proven otherwise.
Corporations like Meta have shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted to play nice with anyone else. Have we already forgotten about Cambridge Analytica or the plethora of other scandals they've been at the center of? The proof has been in plain view for a while now.
Innocent until proven otherwise is a concept for criminal court.
We aren't putting someone in jail, we are looking at their past business practices and deciding not to do business with them based on their obvious habits.
If you disagree with me, we'll then you're just against niceness, admit you are! Admit you're against niceness!
yeah that this point meta just existing is bad
User pointed to a history of bad behaviour to counter the idea of "lets wait". User suggested to learn from history and use that as a metric for decisions.
You just trolled your way into this and think consequentially you are 'clever'. You are not.
Oh, looks like Iβm switching instances.
And done. I love federation.
Just gonna name-drop the tool I made to do this :) https://github.com/CMahaff/lasim
It's only been out a few days, let me know if you have any issues!
Honestly it isn't. Nothing about the Fediverse is private or inherently secure in that way. Everything is public. And you should assume that everything you publish through activity pub could eventually be looked at by anyone. If you want private or secure messaging there are non-activity pub open source secure alternate. In fact signing up for Lemmy there's even a field to enter for one. Whether or not a server federates with meta. Meta is still going to data mine the ever-loving shit out of all of them. The point is. None of us are at Meta's wim about being flooded with their toxic content.
Honestly I want to see meta flooded with our content. So much anti-threads anti Meta sentiment. Actual leftists. And not just make believe right-wing liberals who've been conditioned to think that they are left. It would be hilarious to watch Meta try to play wack-a-mole sanitizing everything. To please their reptilian corporate overlords. And if you don't care and just don't want to see it. You can always block them personally. Why let them data mine in peace. I say we make them work for it.
Yep.
Oh damn guess I will migrate to lemmy.ml and use that until I find out if lemmy.world defederates or not. (Edit turns out it is run by tankies and they are federated with lemmygrad.) While I may or may not stay on lemmy.world depending on if we federate with meta or not. I will no longer suggest Lemmy.ml.
I'm not in a hurry to migrate, as Threads doesn't support federation yet, but is not a bad idea to keep an eye on other instances.
The admin is the same person, so is expected that they apply the same policy for both instances.
Is there a list of whoβs blocking or not?
Yes, at https://fedipact.online/
I switched to lemm.ee
What a shame guess I'll stick to my alt over at lemm.ee for the time being
Thank you and the other admins for the thoughtful and transparent answer.
We would like to express our disappointment with the negative and threatening tone of some of these discussions
Considering that a great percentage of the Fediverse userbase are ex-users of Reddit and Twitter that left due to CEO actions, I get that they (including me) don't trust Meta or want anything to do with them. I agree that discussion should be civil nonetheless.
Thanks for this, going to delete my lemmy.world account now.
until something happens
What exact behaviors are they looking for that would cause them to push the block button?
Threads can do very well for themselves without the fediverse as they are already demonstrating. What real motive do they have to join the fediverse except to shut it down?
Facebook doesn't give a shit about its users and treats them and their data as a crop to harvest. On Meta platforms, you're the product. On the fediverse, you're just another user, free to do what you want. Disgust is indeed an emotion, and I'm 100% fine with being disgusted with Meta.
Lemmygrad is where the real comrades are at
The problem with Meta is that they will harm the Fediverse.
I found this article interesting, written by a dev who worked with google during the XMPP EEE and was originally a XMPP dev, thinking that a big company could only mean more success for the FOSS alternative. He was wrong.
It's almost like some people crave enshitification.
"Hey this decentralized stuff is really cool, let's connect with the most gigantic corporate assholes who would absolutely centralize all of it if they could...you know, so we can grow! What could go wrong?"
LIke...what?
I wish even one person could give the actual steps on how Facebook is going to ruin the fediverse instead of just spamming this same one article and throwing around the same buzzwords like XMPP, EEE etc. of which nobody had heard about a week ago.
There's so many people here right now reading this thinking that defederating is going to prevent Facebook from seeing the content you post here and collecting the little data that's available to them. It doesn't. That's not what defederating does.
It's not about the data they can collect. As long as we don't use the Meta app or register in their instance we're on the clear. The problem is giving them power.
I'm not an evil genius shithead like Zuck, but it could go this way:
- They enter the Fediverse as the biggest instance.
- They artificially slow down connections with other instances. That way, lots of users from smaller intances will migrate to the Meta one. Only the ones concerned about our privacy will remain in independent instances.
- Once most of the userbase of the Fediverse is on their instance, they keep slowing it, or adding "features" only available in their app, effectively building a wall between them and the rest of instances.
- Finally they defederate, leaving the rest of the fediverse weaker than it was.
.
There are some key thoughts in this article.
Yeah I really hope they come out with the user's ability to block instances soon. Would be a great feature addition. There are a couple of instances that I take no issue with and don't want others to be blocked access too, but I really just don't want to see them in my feed.
I would prefer the functionality to migrate instances firstβ¦
If you use Lemmy Connect, they added the option to block instances like yesterday.
Wait, an app can do this? I thought the devs of Lemmy itself needed to add the feature. I didn't think that was possible app-side without adding the feature to Lemmy.
How do you block an entire instance in their app?
Edit: Found it! This is interesting. I didn't know it was possible. Finally I can get the porn off my front page without getting rid of NSFW memes. Thanks!
Edit 2: Weirdly, Connect does not seem to show my newly subscribed communities in my subscriptions even though the other apps do. What a strange bug. Hmm...I think I'll hold off on using it until things like that work better for me.
This is not particularly surprising. Lemmy was started as an anti-corporate project by leftists after /r/chapotraphouse got quarantined and later banned (subreddit for the most popular podcast and most donated patreon at the time), with the explicit goal of preventing corporate control from being able to silence leftists when they're blasting off. CTH was skyrocketing in subscribers at the time it was quarantined on August 8th 2019, and when even quarantining didn't stop its growth or slow down its activity afterwards Reddit pulled the plug under the excuse it promoted violence, but the only particularly edgy thing ever said there was "slave owners should be killed" and support for John Brown. This evolved post-ban into the assessment that Spez banned it because he wants to own slaves.
When that happened there was a massive shift in the leftist parts of reddit as we very quickly realised we'd be targeted if reddit ever deemed us to be too successful, and projects like Lemmy began in reaction. CTH's community in fact moved to Lemmy 3 years ago, and resides on Hexbear.net but has not yet joined the rest of federated lemmy due to technical issues (it used to be a fork with a different front end).
Given lemmy's specific anti-corporate origins seeing Lemmy.ml do this should surprise nobody. It's the correct move anyway.
Lemmy.world needs to follow
lemmy.world and everyone should as well
I am proud of Lemmy.ml for defederating. The second I find out if kbin social or lemmy world defederate or not I will just move to the other one since I use both. (Edit turns out Lemmy.ml is run by Tankies and also allows federation with lemmygrad.)
Looking forward to Lemmy.world pushing the block button when it comes to itβ¦
Hard agree.
I don't really think federating with them is doomsday, tbh (though I go back and forth on this one), but that doesn't affect my primary reason for my nope. Threads consolidates everything I hate about corporate social media--and for that matter, all social media--without a single part I actually liked and made dealing with the other parts worth it. This is not a twitter clone; it's like someone asked chatGPT to create a social media network based on twitter for other chatGPT bots to talk to each other. For fuck's sake, it doesn't think its users should control what they see on their own feed.
I am perfectly willing--even eager--to perform melodramatically about things that annoy me in public for fun and when I'm bored and applaud others doing the same; it's fun times for all and possibly my favorite thing ever. This is not that.
Threads makes my skin crawl on concept. This is not 'they do not align with our values' because come on, Fediverse contains a multitude of values and invents more and i bet if asked, everyone here would list off a different set of values they believe encompass Fediverse and now I'm tempted to see because it would be hilarious. But we can't even get that far; Threads has no values. This would be a marriage of convenience to a real doll fueled by Facebook's algorithms and sponsored by Wal-Mart; whether or not it's a danger to Fediverse shouldn't even have come up because the first question that should be on anyone's minds is 'wait, this is actually a serious question?' and have been answered 'lol of course it's a joke, I just forgot to add the /s'.
I'm still waiting for that /s.
It's not about Zuckerberg, it's about the userbase. With something that grew to 30 million users literally overnight, it's impossible to determine what it will be like, and how it will mesh with the existing fediverse content/users.
With something this scale, it only makes sense to secure and observe - pre-emptively block, watch the content, maybe even poll the users on what should be done. There is nothing to be lost this way, it's only a cautious approach towards a potential later link.
What could be lost is the Threads community overwhelms the lemmy community before there is a chance to react (it is 1000x bigger, after all). It makes sense to be cautious, here.
This isn't inconveniencing anyone, any user can make an account on Threads as well and use both right now.
Look, Mark has royally screwed up Facebook. Any respect or honor with the guy has long been lost. Why even give him a second chance when it's obvious he's going to do the same thing with Threads?
His Metaverse failed. His Facebook/Meta thing failed.
He is a huge red alert to be involved or close to the very things we're trying to recover and escape to from things he has contaminated. Why chance associating with him?
Ideologically, de-federating an instance just because you don't like the guy running it would be a bad thing, but Facebook/Meta has been just so toxic to the internet as a whole it's hard to really find fault with it.
I think one can be "open" to a fault. If you cling to principles and morale for the sake of it and without exception or nuance, you set yourself up to be exploited or worse. Many things, entities, interactions in life contradict each other and it is important to set boundaries and make decisions for yourself. Because life and people are multi-faceted and aren't nice and clean and perfect, which blind, naive idealism fails to take into account. The keyword here is nuance.
Many big tech companies run on greed and inhumane, unhealthy, invasive practices for the sake of pure, blind, unsustainable growth and profit. And I would argue that this is one of the driving factors of the fediverse even existing. If you don't clearly separate yourself from these practices, then we all can simply use Reddit. But people create, maintain and use alternatives for a reason. Not taking a stance or action against what you want to escape from, even openly inviting it for the sake of being open and on a morally high horse makes simply no sense.
Idealists won't like to hear this, but it's the same with peace. Look at Ukraine to have a recent example. Most people want to live and prosper in peace. That is natural and desirable. But there are always some, who profit from war and who try to destroy things, disregarding the fate of others. Or political systems that want to expand territory and exploit / convert whole populations. When the desire for peace is only one-sided, and all attempts of talking or peaceful incentives fail, you can either protect yourself forcefully or be stolen from, raped, tortured, deported or murdered, watching your homeland be turned into ashes and those you love suffer for decades from the consequences.
In the same way, when the desire for openness, humane fairness without exploitation of users is one-sided, you have to draw a line and take a clear stance to defend that "safe space" you seeked in the first place from entities and principles that contradict it. And we have decades of clear evidence how big tech, especially Facebook / Meta operates, they are known to invade user privacy, strive for one-sided power, try everything to avoid or circumvent legal regulation. They have more than earned to be excluded from a place created to offer something better, healthier. And it's not like we hurt feelings here, it's a corporation, a virtual, soulless entity.
I can only speak for myself and do what I deem is good for me, so I'll migrate to Lemmy.ml, because at least they have the balls to stay true to a concept, even if it involves difficult or ugly decisions. And even if blocking Meta won't fully "protect" the fediverse, at least it is a clear message and limits the amount of power they can achieve and the amount of damage they can do here.
My many years of experience on the Internet has taught me that once the unwashed hordes of the public show up and start slinging shit around, thatβs when your website dies if you like having intelligent discourse on it.
being open to everything is not better though, and being open to meta specifically will threaten and lower the quality of the place. lemmy.world should defederate with threads
That won't keep them from coming in here and antagonizing us, flooding our instances with spam and advertising.
You're in no position dictate what an instance should or should not do. If you don't like what an instance is doing, you're welcome to join another one or start your own, that's the beauty of decentralization.
Ironically, Youβre in no position dictate what a user should or should not complain about :P
Touche. Not dictating anything, just pointing out the obvious that when you sign up at an instance, the admin still has full control.
Which is why we shouldn't get instances grow too large as then we have the same issue as any centralized platform.
Yea agree, not a fan of "Meta". But I think limiting who can use federated networks kinda goes against the federated nature of such networks. What's next, we'll have a centralized blacklist of lemmy instances.
they did this specially prevent the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy
This is mentioned in pretty much every thread but I haven't seen anyone apply the theory to the fediverse. The second step is for threads to create features that lure people over from Lemmy (or activitypub). So are the people saying eee by extension saying they'll move to threads from their current server because threads have a bigger and better development team?
they'll move to threads because threads will be incompatible with the rest of fediverse (thread essentially defederate themself), and if most content is being posted in threads, they'll move there (since they can't access it from other instance)
this has happened before, such as
- MSN messenger breaking compatibility with AOL IM (MSN wins since it got 95% market share)
- MS Office doing obfuscation to their office file data to prevent FOSS editor like LibreOffice from rendering it correctly
I've been saying exactly this since the news dropped. I fully understand people being worried, but I haven't seen a concrete pathway to damage that doesn't involve meta-hating users moving over to a meta product.
Is there yet a way to fully migrate a lemmy account like a Mastodon one? Otherwise, "just move instances" isn't great advice, it's still having to start over. We need that ability imo or we're losing a major benefit of being federated.
Yeah, it would be nice to have a capability to move all your user content to another instance.
Yeah I would like to know how to switch from .world to .ml
Meta's decision to work towards federation does need to be taken with a lot of salt. Corporations using open platforms or open source to make their money has always resulted in power imbalances that, left unchecked, may become impossible to solve without concessions from said corporation, or else [X] thing just gets hung out to dry.
You have to hope the people running that company understand that these problems exist, and actively work against ruining everything for everyone else that relies on it.
The article was a nice read. I'm surprised that there is either no awareness or discussion in the privacy conscious tech crowd over here on the lack of privacy from anonymous bad actors. Everyone seems to only care about Meta, who are bad, but the most they will do with our data is advertise to us. The other bad actors enabled by ActivityPub can actually doxx, redistribute, save our posts, messages.
I agree that the fediverse isn't currently super privacy-friendly, although I think there's also an inherent limitation to privacy on a social network since it's all about sharing things. I view privacy as having the control over WHAT I share, with WHOM I share it with, and WHEN, and I get that moreso with the fediverse IMO. I choose what information I share, what I follow, etc. The major difference to me is that Lemmy isn't tracking me elsewhere around the web like Facebook, Google, Pinterest, etc do. The big sites also save our posts and messages even when they claim not to, because things that are deleted are very rarely ever truly deleted.
I would appreciate the ability to send no-knowledge encrypted DMs here on Lemmy. But using PGP is not difficult, will guarantee only the recipient can read the message, and is a skill that everyone who uses the internet should be able to do anyways.
https://darknetone.com/... is a good resource to get started! You don't have to use kleopatra, but it's a good place to start.
Meta has the right to join the fediverse, but instance admins have the right to defederate from them. If a user doesn't like that, they can make an account with another instance. How does it go against "fediverse principles?"
It would be great if that was the way it worked, unfortunately right now it's granular to the instance level, not user level. Not sure it's even possible to get it down to user level unless every user runs their own instance which is unlikely to ever happen. The data has to live somewhere, so we need instances or instance -equivalent to host the data. Maybe if they get it down to where hosting your own instance is super easy one-click ordeal. Then each user would be truly in control.
You are using a social network on some random dude's server.
I don't know. I would like to subscribe to someone on Threads from Mastodon (since both are Twitter alternatives), if they don't have Mastodon account (which let's be honest they probably don't). Zuck does not get any of my data (besides what's available publicly anyway). If Threads decides to go full EEE, I'll stop getting updates from people on Threads, same as I don't get updates from people on IG right now. I think proliferation of ActivityPub protocol would be the greatest advantage.
Moreover, I think we should follow the email architecture - I might use i.e. Proton Mail, but it does not prevent me from sending emails to Gmail, which I think is a bad provider, who collects a lot of user data. In fact if Proton Mail forbade sending email to Gmail I would be really displeased about that.
The goal is to allow people to choose where they want to go and ActivityPub is what can help with that, unlike blocking Threads.
I couldnβt agree more. Racing to block Threads when itβs completely unclear if Threads will even actually ever federate and what the implications of them federating will even be seems incredibly short sighted. Imagine how much innovation would have been lost on the internet if web server admins raced to block Google Chrome from accessing their content because they have some personal beef with Google.
i ONLY want to conter your argument with email and activityhub: on email people choose to send stuff to a very limited amount of people except maybe newsletter and scammers. with threads, which should have already multiple times of osers compared to the fediverse, will flood the content to /all. Of course there are cool people but i think the entire fediverse culture will be blown away by threads in an instand. And with their weird moderation (especcially small) servers here will have large problems trying to moderate it
but by email there is no mass broadcasting to the public so it does not need to be moderated
Email is not only 1:(small N). Maillists do exist and and are used to facilitate discussions between a large amount of people via email. They are also often public so anonymous readers and search indexers can use them.
/all is certainly an interesting thing - default Active sorting calculates a rank based on the score and time of the latest comment, with decay over time. If Threads are connected they would dominate /all. But there can certainly be adjustments, we can create a new sorting style, and make it default. For example:
- Posts are deprioritized based on MAU or some similar metric. The larger the MAU, the lower the post is ranked assuming the same engagement. If the post got 100 upvotes on an instance with 1000 users, it's probably a much more interesting post, than the post that got 100 upvotes on an instance with 100 000 000 users.
- Posts are (de)prioritized based on instance source. For example setting Threads to -1000 would effectively remove it, setting Threads to -50 would allow you to see only super active posts. On the other hand if we want to see more content from less populated instance we might set it (i.e. german lemmy feddit.de) to the score of 100.
- Instances can provide a limited number or percentage of
/all- i.e. after we got 10 posts from Threads, stop getting posts from this instance.
i did not know about the weights. That is very interesting, good written and i would say that you topped my argument. Thank you ^^
I already owned the domain and have access to a server with more than enough resources, so it didn't have a downside to me.
Upside, I don't really have to worry about anyone else's federation choices. Undesirable content like loli/shouta stuff doesn't appear at all, because I'm basically the only user and don't subscribe to anywhere that exists so it doesn't federate to me anyway. My instance never lags because nobody but me uses it. Sometimes it misses comments through federation from overloaded instances, but it seems like the newer version of Lemmy has helped that greatly.
For me, yes. My instance is considerably faster and has better uptime than any of the instances I have created accounts on. Mostly because I'm the only one using it.
Yep, while other were complaining about issues it was smooth sailing for me.
On the flip side, discovering new communities is a pain, and whenever i subscribe to a new community it can take hours to start populating comments.
Honestly, not really.. But, it does put you in control over your destiny.
When companies like META show you how ruinous they are the first dozen times, over and over without end, you believe them, and you defend yourself, or you deserve every bad thing that's going to happen to you, when they repeat their corporate driven ends at your expense
Personally I donβt think there is anything they could do gain trust short of undoing their data harvesting. Which would destroy them as a business entity/platform.
There's no way to build, let alone restore, trust with that kind of business model. All behavior manipulation companies need to die. Their mere existence is unethical.
I'm on the fence here. Luckily, at least, I think community/subreddit-based sites like Lemmy/Reddit don't have "network effects" that are as "sticky" as Mastodon/Twitter, because with Lemmy/Reddit you don't need to build up a follower list to start getting value. You just join the community and it's as if you immediately "followed" a bunch of people who share your interests. You don't even need to make an account - you can just bookmark a community and lurk, and maybe you eventually make an account to start interacting. It's a great "on-ramp" - very low barrier to entry/usefulness.
I think that's why Lemmy was able to take off so fast. It relies on community-level coordination, rather than every individual user having to make their own choice to switch, and try to get all their followers/followees to switch. So even if Meta did add a community-style mode, I don't think it'd eat into the Lemmy userbase. It is hard to be sure though, and I respect the choices of those instances that have blocked/defederated.
Mastodon admins have a harder decision to make I think - there's an opportunity to get very quick growth by effectively adding a lot more followable users/content. A bunch of people don't like Meta/Facebook, but want to follow their friends, and so they may use Mastodon to do that, which could get a lot more people to move to "real" fediverse apps/sites like Mastodon. I know a lot of people that are on Threads now, and I'm looking forward to being able to follow them from Mastodon, rather than being forced to get Threads to keep up to date with what they're working on.
Lemm.ee intends to do the same βIf Threads ever becomes interoperable with Lemmyβ
Per β Admin Post
There we go. Not the wishy washy mastodon non-announcement. Although I understand their "neutrality" too, it's still like they wanna seem like the big boys. Sometimes it's advantageous to be small. This "fuck you" may be just adorable to Zuck, but it's also genuine.
(Apparently) Unpopular Opinion: I think defederating Threads is the wrong move, because it just locks people into Threads. If people on Twitter had the ability to move to Mastodon AND still interact with all the people they did before, I think we would have seen even more people move. The only reason I still check twitter at all is because I have a few close friends who didn't move. Meta is likely going to have big adoption of people who aren't ready to go to Mastodon, but are interested in getting out of the dumpster-on-fire that twitter seems to continue to be. But blocking those people from being able to join the more popular Lemmy instances, given no actual policy violations, just will keep people in Meta that otherwise could leave. With the "however" being: It's not quite clear to me that Threads users will be interacting with Lemmy as much Mastodon, if Threads were a Reddit replacement, it's more directly connected.
These are very good news, I just hope more instances beyond lemmy.ml do so too.
My instance as well as the other Lemmy and Mastodon instances on this list have blocked Threads.
Can someone ELI5 this situation to me? Not sure what Meta can do to instances/the Fediverse.
I mean, if Lemmy.world doesn't when they decide to try and move in, I'll just move on to the next site that does. Prolly Lemmy.ml
I am so in love with Lemmy right now.
Forgive my ignorance but how is Threads part of the fediverse? How did .ml defederate it?
Threads announced they are going to open up an activitypub interface to federate
Preemptively is the word
They don't want Facebook to be able to pull data from Lemmy.ml
I think it's got less to do with whatever is posted online and it's more about the under the hood stuff like what devices you decide to use, what networks are being used to access their services, what contacts they have, and other shit like that.
I thought it's cause they didn't want it to be flooded/overrun by the massive amount of posts from threads. let's face it, threads is going to have a waaaaay bigger userbase. I mean shit, it already does if Instagram accounts automatically have a threads account.
Good call, guys. No more Zuck.
You shouldn't be. These companies are not here to play along, but dominate. Just like reddit played along with 3rd party developers until it didn't need them anymore, so will Meta use the openess of the protocol to ultimately undermine it.
Embrace --> Extend --> Extinguish
^------- Facebook is currently here
They are, but we should figure out how to beat them at their game. They'll probably manage to get custody of the remainder of the decent people from twitter, being able at an individual level to follow a single person over there without having to hear from all the people over there would be a better solution.
Right now we lack the proper tools to keep them at bay without massive moderation on our end so blocking them is best, but we can eventually work out a middleground.
I don't generally judge people based on their appearance, but this man's face gives me the heebie-jeebies. There's something alienating about the lack of affect he seems to have, plus his features seem to be an approximation of a human face - the mouth is too small, the ears too big, the forehead too shiny...
How does that work? Is threads using a protocol compatible to lemmy? (And I fully agree with the preemptive blocking of any facebook stuff).
Edit: thanks for all the detailled answers.
So Facebook tries the old EEE - Embrace Extend Extinguish. 1.A big company is Embracing an open source standard ("we're friendly, see?) They get a lot of users that way - even the open source savvy types. 2.they start Extending that standard "to make it even better" - but not talking about these changes with the rest of the community first. They cannot react quickly enough and become incompatible with the new version of this standard. 3.Extinguish. When all the users are effectively using the big companies platform with something that isn't the original standard anymore they change it so much that it isn't compatible at all anymore or replace it completely.
Excellent news!
Why what happened there?
Can y'all stop using this goblin as the thumbnail? Thanks
Not sure what to think of this honestly. Like imagine a small email provider decided to block Gmail, that's a death sentence. It's impossible to get people to switch apps when they have to leave behind all of the content and people they used an app to interact with. And let's be honest, threads is going to run at a loss for a long time to grow their userbase before they start pulling weird shit. We need to have a migration path when that happens, and if threads is blocked everywhere, people will lose their content and contacts upon switching, so they won't do it.
lemmy.ml4lyfe.
Lemmy.ml is also the instance made by the lemmy devs
How can I block threads on my own server? I simply add threads.net to my "Blocked Instances"?
I don't really get this. I see people were worried about Threads app/web app permissions (which I signed up and no permissions were granted immediately beyond notifications). Regardless, wouldn't staying federated with threads.net allow everyone to interact with them all from the more reasonably permissioned app of their choice, like Jerboa?
It's more like just in case of legal issue. Big corporations tends to declare more than what they actually use in "Data Safety/Privacy" just to say they consent in court. It doesn't mean they collect or use all the things they declared.
Yeah, the problem here as I see it is that just the same as Twitter, this social media service is still owned by a single owner corporation who is running the service for a profit and they will eventually sell user data or bastardize the service. Ive been on the internet for 30 years, social media and websites come and go and so does their popularity.
Which raises another point, how are the bills being paid for with any of these services, including lemmy? TAANSTAFL.
I moved here from Reddit my I have 3 boxes to check off before I can commit to a home for social media. A community that rivals Reddit which is tough to do. They are some of the snarkiest bastards alive, decentralized of which Lenny gets kinda right, but ultimately someone owns this server, and thatβs pretty centralized, and open source to avoid social media for profit. I havenβt found one out probably 69, or so that Iβve tried. If someone were to check all those boxes theyβd eventually blow the top off of social media.
Which raises another point, how are the bills being paid for with any of these services, including lemmy?
The hope is with user donations. As far as I know every instance is losing money though.
How do I see which lemmy instance has the most users?
Good
Fuck yeah
Great news! Time to switch instances lol
Anyone having problems logging into Lemmy.World?
While the title may be clever, Threads is an Instagram creation, not one of Facebook, and while both are products of Meta, Facebook content (and even Instagram content) and Lemmy content would never co-mingle.
why would you move from twitter, it is truly a more open forum now, dont care what views you have free speech should be the same for every one. people have thin skin and that just leaves them naturally as targets.
I disagree with the prevailing sentiment here. Meta using ActivityPub is going to help ActivityPub grow an will be good for federated platforms like lemmy, and mastadon.
Lemmy should not block threads.net. Individual users can simply opt out of using threads, but it's good if we can communicate with people using it and they can communicate with us using a decentralized, free, standard.
Generally disagree. If you want the Fediverse to become a large open standard, if not the largest, then this is going to just be a matter of course. Companies will seek to commodify all their offerings, whether they use open standards or not. Many exist that commodify on top of open-source software and open standards. The important part is to ACHEIVE the open standard to begin with, and I think it's short-sighted to pre-emptively block something that could be a strong item down that path, and before it might show itself to be more harmful towards that goal.
It can always be blocked later, situation-depending.
How is that the death of the fediverse? Just go to Threads if you want to be part of it. What are you people, fucking stupid?
At this point I'm convinced these are sock puppet acounts paid for by Zuck, it's fucking stupid.
Offensive language won't be tolerated here? According to who? You clearly don't understand federation if you can't grasp that you can be part of two different instances that aren't federated. What you're doing is trying to impose your will on other people who want nothing to do with it. Calling that fucking stupid is the most polite way I can frame that attitude.
Calling people "fucking stupid" doesn't help us have a civil conversation. Please be respectful of others in future comments.
Don't see why people are doing this. You'll just damage the fediverse and discourage meta from federating, granting them their own walled garden that you cannot use without selling your soul to them, which is going to dissuade people from using Mastodon as what's the point if people on threads cannot see what they have
Would you mind explaining how they're going to do this with fediverse? Like explain using your own words and not just linking that same article everyone is spreading around. It seems like no one is cabable of giving ELI5 or even ELI15 answer to this.
You're a woodworker. You've developed skills that only few have. Carpentry Inc. approaches you regarding a partnership: you share your skills, they offer you their platform. Win-win, right? Now Carpentry Inc. decides to adapt the knowledge you provided, cutting you out of everything. You're powerless against a multi-billion corporation. All your years of work are gone. You're nothing more than an afterthought.
That's more or less the playbook.
Damn, I think everyone missed that detail! We're talking about two completely different companies here -- my mind is blown! Just look at the Hemming distance between "Google" and "Meta"! I'm convinced! Meta will never follow Google's footsteps.
Now how about you take a nice, cold shower and re-think your comment.
Because we, the users of Lemmy.world, do not want our data handed over to Facebook
They can also get that data without doing anything because any data theyβd get from federating is already public.
Anyone can do anything; the point is handing it over automatically and neatly into a database and ready for use.
You're confusing something. Defederation by lemmy.ml means that lemmy.ml users cannot see any threads.net content if they wanted or not. Threads.net can still connect to lemmy.ml. That's exactly the situation lemmy.world and beehaw.org are in: beehaw.org blocked lemmy.world and lemmy.world users can see and interact with everything from beehaw.org, just beehaw users don't see any of those interactions. Have a look at https://lemmy.world/c/gaming@beehaw.org as proof.
Facebook is known for analyzing your contact list and trying to get as much data as they can on those people as well. You don't have to make life easier for face-eating leopards.
You're posting on public forum. If you don't want Facebook to see it then stop posting. Defederating isn't going to change that. It just stops the content flow from their instance into yours. Not the other way around. For them to get data other than your content and upvotes you need to install Threads app because that's only available to the admins of your instance and Facebook can't get it wether you federate with them or not.
People are demanding for defederation but almost everyone is confused about what it does.
The thing is, if you wanted to interact with someone on Threads and it wasn't federated, you'd have to install the app and hand over your data to Meta to interact with them. If it was federated, you could set up your own Mastodon instance and keep all of the data that you don't want to share.
Installing their app is not the only option. You can also just switch to an instance that federates with them.
I get that. But instead on Lemmy were freely giving away our data to literally anyone that ask for it. That's the downside of the federated platforms. I guess with the fediverse you're at least not tying things to your actual identity. Not sure if threads allows for anonymous accounts like Twitter.
Then why are you posting on a public forum? π€
You don't speak for everyone, especially when you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.
The comments and ratios in this thread are a perfect example of why lemmy.world should not defederate from facebook until given a clear reason. You all are operating on emotion, not logical or rational thought.
Things might go bad with federation with Meta and Meta is indeed loathsome and has an awful history and present of being a bad actor β but responding to "You all are operating on emotion" with the bad faith emotional ad hominem response "Why are you so hard for Zucc?" is kind of proving the point.
I think there's lots of good arguments around being wary of Meta and defederating (and some good ones in favour of wait and see) but the level of discourse around this issue on here is really not great and too much attacking others (and it's not just you β the post you're responding to as well was rude too with "you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about"). The absolutist way people are talking and treating people who have other perspectives has made me feel much less positive about the potential for good discourse and community on this platform.
Uhh... what?
I'm defending users being able to make these decisions for themselves. If you want to be on an instance that 'pre-emptively' blocks corporations, lemmy.ml might be better for you than lemmy.world.
This thread is full of children who think that because they don't like something then neither should anyone else.
Oh boy, more 'data collection' nonsense. Hey brother. Have you, personally, ever written a bot? If you did, you'd know how trivial it is for anyone to collect anything posted on lemmy.
You're being bit of a jerk in this thread but you're still right. People are spamming one article and using the same buzzwords from that article to sound smart but the content of their messages demonstrates that almost no one understands how any of this works. People over-estimate the amount of data Facebook can collect from outside instances and they're confused about what defederating actually does.
I don't want anything to do with facebook either but I'm interested in actual solutions for this and not just something that feels good but doesn't do anything.
@ChatGPT@lemmings.world Explain briefly like I'm 5 the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy with a kid selling lemonade and another kid joining in
Sure, think of it like this:
Embrace: You're selling lemonade at your stand. One day, another kid in the street ("Kid B") starts his own lemonade stand as well. Noticing his operation, you decide to become friends with him and share your lemonade recipes with him, so you both can make tasty lemonade together.
Extend: As you continue to share more insights and tips about your business, Kid B starts implementing your strategies. His lemonade stand begins to seem a lot like yours. You suggest adding exciting new features to the lemonade stands, like special umbrellas, or a particular secret ingredient that only you know. Since Kid B doesn't know any better, he relies on your inputs and makes these changes.
Extinguish: Now, both lemonade stands are almost identical. You've influenced Kid B's business heavily, and it's become deeply dependent on your ideas. At this stage, you make a move that Kid B can't match. Maybe you start selling a unique lemonade flavor that only you can make, or setup a cool sign that Kid B can't afford. Suddenly, customers start to ignore Kid B's stand and flock to yours, because yours has something extra or special. Eventually, Kid B's stand can't compete, and he has to close up his lemonade stand.
This is a simplified example of how "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" can work.
Everybody knows AI is evil.
@ChatGPT@lemmings.world Please explain embrace, extend, extinguish in the format of a song set to the tune of bohemian rapsody.
(Verse 1) Is this just a concept, or is this strategy keen? Caught in a big tech, no escape from the scheme, Open your eyes, look up to the screens and see, "E-E-E," that's the name, it's no mystery.
(Chorus) Embrace, extend, extinguish, A technique they call distinguished, But it's really quite extinguished, To the losers, it's a nightmare, to the winners, it's a dream.
(Verse 2) Give a little glance, to a world full of code, In the corporate stance, see how their actions flowed, Embrace, extend, and extinguish, From small tech innovations to those giant-sized wishes.
(Chorus) Embrace, extend, extinguishing the light, Innovation in the shadow, yet claiming it's right, The strategy's plain, as day or night, It's the landscape of tech, evoking quite a fight.
(Bridge) Embrace, welcoming tech with a smile, Beneath that guise, there's something quite vile. Extend, broadening the reach oh so wide, Programming, developing, can't escape the tide.
(Chorus) Extinguish, the crown of this plan, Corporate giants ruling the tech span. From the mom and pop tech, to the coder's free hand, It's all part of the game, in the corporate techland.
(Outro) So you see, E-E-E, it's more than it seems, A deadly trio, disrupting the dreams, Control over technology downstream, Wake up from the lullaby, it's time to intervene.
Accounts can be on instances which are federated with Threads, and on instances which are defederated from Threads. A single person can have both types of accounts.
Defederation has effects which many users find desirable. The same suite of effects is not available on a user level, and would require each user to manually take action individually.
So from a feature perspective, it is necessary that some instances defederate. This provides better service for users who find it desirable.
There will also be instances who federate. People can use accounts there if they prefer that.
TL;DR: We don't need a consensus. Instances can choose their federation policy. People can choose which instance(s) they use.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the point in defederating. Aren't you just cutting down on the amount of content you can see? As a user I'd personally prefer to pick and choose what I can see.
What's the actual upside in doing it? Obviously I can see why you'd want defederating from say a far right instance, but in general it seems like only downsides.
I'm new to all this so maybe I'm missing a crucial bit of information.
Arenβt you just cutting down on the amount of content you can see?
Plus, you reduce the amount of content they can see (while logged in). Quoting myself from a similar context (It is about a community on another instance, which is federated with Threads, while your home instance defederated from Threads):
- You wont see posts or comments from Threads users in that remote community. You also won't see reactions to those activities from anyone, anywhere. It's as if comment chains started by Threads users don't exist.
- Threads will not see posts and comments from you, even if done in communities from instances which are federated with Threads.
There are also more subtle implications. For example, some might find the situation in remote communities which have both federated and defederated qualities confusing (Imagine "see this comment section" when different users see different versions). This might be a reason to avoid these communities, to only visit communities on other instances, which follow your personal policy of de/federating Threads.
The same is probably true for votes. If your instance defederates Threads, you don't see their votes, and they don't see yours.
Defederation in this context sends a political signal, which some people find important.
This was not meant as a comprehensive answer, but as counter-examples to your core question ("Aren't you just ...").
As a user Iβd personally prefer to pick and choose what I can see.
You can do that either way, as explained in my previous comment. No matter on which side of the argument you are, use an account on an instance which has a similar policy. You can have many, you can use many. Of course, most people want to use not more than one, which is why they try to make sure their instance's policy reflects their personal preference, instead of making sure their instance choice reflects their personal preference. In reality, we see both (people influencing their instance, and people choosing their instance), and both is fine.
Further, we need instances which defederate from Threads, so people can choose this option.
Iβm new to all this so maybe Iβm missing a crucial bit of information.
I get you. I'm also missing a comprehensive, compact list of consequences.
Isn't it creating a situation of Reddit power mods on steroids? It's easy to say "well go and make accounts on multiple instances", but it's creating additional barriers to entry that a lot of people won't understand and frankly is kind of irritating as a user.
I feel like people aren't taking the consequences seriously and that defederating needs to be viewed as like a nuclear option that's avoided unless absolutely necessary. That's what I get from the additional information you provided.
This place will become completely unusable in the future if the good will dies out and large instances decide to defederate from each other to try and become the "top" instance, especially as more and more casual users move over.
@lemmy.world
A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, Mbin, etc).
If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to !moderators@lemmy.world!
Rules
- Posts must be on topic.
- Be respectful of others.
- Cite the sources used for graphs and other statistics.
- Follow the general Lemmy.world rules.
Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration)
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@lemmy.world
A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, Mbin, etc).
If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to !moderators@lemmy.world!
Rules
- Posts must be on topic.
- Be respectful of others.
- Cite the sources used for graphs and other statistics.
- Follow the general Lemmy.world rules.
Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration)
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How about Lemmy.World?
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