Having the ability to lie and manipulate with no remorse will get you much further in this world than having morals and being correct

a year ago by TheReanuKeeves to c/showerthoughts

hitmyspot 164 points a year ago

I've got 2 kids in primary school. We teach them to be kind and caring, that cheaters never win. That bullies are bullies because they are not happy.

However a study came out that compared bullies and non bullies. Bullies kids are more likely to be successful financially and socially based on studies. I was sad for humanity when o found out.

It makes sense, in the same way that it makes sense that CEO's are more likely to be sociopaths. Human brains are made for small societies. When it's a larger society, negative traits can be helpful to get ahead. It's likely part of the reason we experience wars and famine and billionaires.

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Doll_Tow_Jet-ski 104 points a year ago

I love you put billionaires next to other disasters

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Coelacanth 29 points a year ago

In many ways billionaires are worse than the other disasters listed.

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jballs 15 points a year ago

Mostly because people aspire to be billionaires. Society would be much better off if people aspired to be hurricanes.

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clif 7 points a year ago

Thank you, I have a new goal in life.

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Saleh 11 points a year ago

That is unless the bully messes with the wrong person and gets the shit beaten out of them.

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TheReanuKeeves 34 points a year ago

And then they become adults and find different ways to mess with people, hire bodyguards, expensive lawyers, group up with other corrupt people who find joy in people suffering, shit in their diapers under their suit, etc.

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P00ptart 8 points a year ago

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TranquilTurbulence 5 points a year ago

The human brain really seems to be built for small communities. Once the village you live in is bigger than about 150 people, all sorts of weird things begin to happen. Some people no longer feel like they're a part of the same group as everyone else. They begin to feel like they can get away with anything, maybe even steal something, or hurt other people. Being greedy doesn't feel wrong any more, altruism feels like a weakness etc.

I've been thinking about these things, and I've come to the conclusion that the world we live in is not optimized for the human mind or physiology. We've specifically designed a world that is bad for us in a number of ways.

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brachiosaurus 3 points a year ago

successful financially and socially

Going around with a machete makes you more successful predator. Being successful financially doesn't mean shit and neither does having followers on social media.

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datavoid 12 points a year ago

Believe it or not, social interaction isn't limited to social media. Or so I've been told...

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brachiosaurus 1 point a year ago

Lies and manipulation do not lead to good social interactions.

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olafurp 3 points a year ago

I'd also want to see the same methodology when assessing being happy, have many close friends you can trust etc.

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blarghly 1 point a year ago

And also how they assessed "being a bully"

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TempermentalAnomaly 2 points a year ago

I was curious about the studies. The only thing I came across about outcomes was this BMJ review that says:

Bullies were more likely to have trouble keeping a job and honouring financial obligations. They were more likely to be unemployed.

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TheReanuKeeves 3 points a year ago

They're probably referring to this study

https://www.hrleader.com.au/....

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blarghly 1 point a year ago

Or the other option: all kids are equally capable of being dicks to each other. It just depends who has social capital. Kids who have the traits necessary to gain social capital - intelligence, athleticism, attractiveness, confidence, etc - end up on top of the social hierarchy in school and also end up going farther in life.

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hitmyspot 1 point a year ago

Theoretically, all people are capable of being president, but I ky very few get there, irrespective of ability.

You're right about their attributes being a guide. I reckon it's down to the confidence, more than anything. Bullys are typically seen as acting out due to their own insecurity. However, the skills learned in putting themselves above others likely helps to achieve personal goals. It's likely similar for attractive people and confidence. Confidence is a drug that affects other people.

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SalamenceFury 65 points a year ago

Maybe, but it also means that you'll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.

There is only so many people you can do that to before everyone else catches on and shuns you. All the evil people in the world don't have any friends and are subject to betrayals and threats in their lives constantly. To me, that's not a bearable existence. Sure, you got power, but you're miserable and afraid all the time. Was that really worth it?

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HappySkullsplitter 58 points a year ago

That doesn't seem to bother the kind of people being described

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Saleh 19 points a year ago

Does Muskrat seem like a happy and balanced individual to you? What about Coked up Bezos or AI Zuckerberg?

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TheReanuKeeves 12 points a year ago

Zuckbot seems legitimately happy now after being less involved with the company and pursuing personal goals

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Lost_My_Mind 21 points a year ago

you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.

I AM a morally decent person who makes efforts to do the right thing. And that last part is STILL true!

I just don't like most people.

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TheReanuKeeves 3 points a year ago

Most people are selfish and amoral. When people like that encounter a decent person, they will do what they can to silence them so they aren't given the chance to expose corruption.

You probably don't like most people because most people are walking sacks of shit who would throw you under the bus if it means benefiting themselves

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SalamenceFury 8 points a year ago

You'd be wrong. I'm sorry that you feel this way about humanity, but that is simply not true. And believing that won't make you a "smart" person. It makes you're no better than those people, and it also makes you feel worse.

It might be satisfying in the moment to hate humanity, but that satisfaction is fleeting and addicting. Being a misanthrope just brings the worst version of yourself out.

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TheReanuKeeves 8 points a year ago

Seems condescending to assume I think that belief makes me "smart". I'm speaking on my experience, that's the only experience I have. I don't appreciate you trying to make me out as some kind of angsty teen rebel.

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WorldsDumbestMan 2 points a year ago

I want the worst version of myself out. I recently made two shitty co-workers crap themselves.

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Lost_My_Mind 5 points a year ago

Wow. You actually get me.

shifty eyes

I still don't trust you....

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TheReanuKeeves 5 points a year ago

I want nothing from you other than your social security, bank cards and pins, credit card information, medical information, your first born, your shoe size, favorite color and why, as well as your third born

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TheReanuKeeves 19 points a year ago

There are plenty of corrupt people who are never caught, or even caught and let go with little to no consequences due to their influence and money. As much as I want to live in a world where karma exists and assholes get what they deserve, that is unfortunately not the reality we live in.

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Maeve 3 points a year ago

Just because we don't see it or it doesn't look like we think it should doesn't mean it's not real. Imagine being shallow and wanting to marry for how it looks on the outside. Imagine 20 -30 years later realizing you're stuck in a companionless relationship, but refusing to end it because it makes sense on paper to keep it intact.

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TheReanuKeeves 8 points a year ago

I believe in consequences of your actions of course, but I don't believe there is some kind of cosmic scale balancing right and wrong. Maybe there is but that's quite an assumption to make. Lots of old rich men and women end up in that cycle of trading partners in like leased vehicles. Some people don't care so much for companionship as much as they care about vanity. Sad, yes, but who am I to dictate how some people find happiness.

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Maeve 2 points a year ago

Maybe they are happy. The people I've met living that way seem miserable. That's really all karma is, cause and effect. We either learn or don't. I really believe that the kingdoms of heaven (and hell) are inside us. That doesn't necessarily equate to physical reality, eg, every need met can still leave people miserable, people who seemingly struggle manage to find peace, if not happiness, others who match their physical reality, often we slide among points on the spectrum of being.

I don't see it as perfectly balanced or absolute equilibrium. I see it as more of a spiral hourglass that flips like the magnetic poles. But that's a whole other discussion and I need to develop that concept, as I just surprised myself with it. That's a sleepy thought.

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Artisian 5 points a year ago

You can be selective with this power; works well for a lot of folks. Have a smallish in group where you're always upstanding, enjoy all the benefits that our tribal brain craves, and also enjoy the material benefits.

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Bob_Robertson_IX 4 points a year ago

Hey, you just described church!

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GraniteM 4 points a year ago

via SMBC:

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garbagebagel 2 points a year ago

Yeah it really depends on what you consider success. For a lot of people, money & power isn't necessarily the marker for success, and finding meaning and joy in life is more important. And I know that sounds like capitalist "money doesn't buy you happiness" bs, but striving towards money and power consistently is the most capitalist thing you can do.

I think people who are able to attain a good amount of money to survive and still maintain their morals and find joy, that's success.

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lemmy_outta_here 36 points a year ago

This is only true in a world that is mostly full of people with morals. A society built on lying and manipulation inevitably collapses - look at what is happening to the United States. They elected an amoral lying manipulator and in just six months their society is unraveling. They just passed a law that took money away from hungry children and sick people so that their psychopathic leader can better persecute his enemies: that is, anyone who opposes him. ICE just became the best-funded "law" enforcement agency ever created. It is obvious to everyone except a handful of naive idiots that ICE will be used against US citizens to consolidate MAGA's power in an attempt to create a permanent regime. These states always collapse sooner or later, though, because morality is the foundation of law. No one is going to invest in a country where their assets can be seized and they can be imprisoned on the caprice of a senile madman. You can't have trade without trust - all that is left in places like the US are predators and prey.

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explodicle 22 points a year ago

This unraveling has been going on a lot longer than just six months. It's been accelerating hard since the Patriot Act after 9/11. And even before that, Republicans had been lying about their support of free markets for generations.

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MangoCats 9 points a year ago

Published in 2014:

https://theonion.com/...

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GladiusB 4 points a year ago

Sure it has. It's been going on since the 70s and CEOs making 300 percent of the workforce. It is exactly the same as nobles and their taxes of the poor in almost every Empire's history. And it always leads to a purge that changes things. We could be on the cusp of a Roman takeover. We could be on the cusp of a total collapse. Hard to say which way it's going.

Whatever it is, this will not last forever.

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vivalapivo 30 points a year ago

Yes and i would choose to have morals anyway

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el_eh_chase 23 points a year ago

You'll still be a shit person, likely with no meaningful friendships. That's gotta factor into the equation somehow.

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TheReanuKeeves 22 points a year ago

People with low empathy don't see people as companions, but more as tools to benefit themselves. So they don't really care as long as they have enough money and pawns to take care of themselves.

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LadyButterfly 11 points a year ago

I'm a domestic abuse outreach worker and I see it a lot in clients. Abusers are always selfish and generally manipulative and liars. They have little or no empathy for their partner and rarely care how the partner feels. They're often highly successful in their field, because they have such great manipulation skills.

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TheReanuKeeves 8 points a year ago

I imagine your job is as draining as it is fulfilling

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LadyButterfly 7 points a year ago

Thanks mate, you certainly have to accept the losses. I look at soft outcomes though, so making the children feel heard and like they matter. It gets me through.

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Eknz 9 points a year ago

Reducing other people to mere tools is a symptom of psychopathy rather than simply low empathy. Yes, psychopaths are within the set of people with low empathy, however, shouldn't be confused with the set itself. It's also specifically a lack of affective (warm) empathy that's more of the problem than a lack of empathy in general, as some psychopaths do have cognitive (cold) empathy, and so do understand others (albeit to a limited extent), however, just use it to be more exploitive rather than less. This is by contrast with autistic people who often struggle with cognitive (cold) empathy, however, not with affective (warm) empathy, i.e. they don't know how they've hurt people but they know they've hurt people and try to avoid doing so.

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TheReanuKeeves 2 points a year ago

Been a while since psych and I'm sure some terms I use are outdated now but the way it was explained to me was that sociopaths feel some guilt and remorse but do it anyways whereas psychopaths don't feel any remorse at all. I think symptoms of both have been melded into ASPD in general now but the logic applies. If someone is capable of lying and manipulating without remorse (my original statement) then it would be a very low chance that they see others as equals

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Eknz 6 points a year ago

There is no such thing as a sociopath clinically speaking. There are primary and secondary psychopaths though, the former lacking empathy entirely and the latter having access to some empathy. They are both alloplastic (irresponsible for their actions and their consequences) and thus neither can feel guilt as guilt is associated with having responsibility. Psychopaths tend to have a generalised anxiety at their core, which they compensate for with defiance (to convince themselves and others of their power as a means to deal with the anxiety). This creates a backlash against them, which because they're irresponsible, creates frustration, something they can't manage well, and so direct the frustration outwards in the form of aggression.

Anxiety and shame are the emotions associated with negative (or potential) consequences while being powerless. Psychopaths are more anxious because they have an internal locus of control, whereas narcissists are more shameful because they don't. In both cases, they seek control, albeit for different reasons.

EDIT: Psychopaths see other people as pets at best, and tools at worst. As you say, they do not perceive you as equals.

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matlag 2 points a year ago

Yeah, that's what the rest of us try to convince ourself so that we can cope with it. That or the idea that these people must sleep very poorly thinking about what they've done, while we're actually the ones who have poor sleep thinking about what they've done and feeling powerless.

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LavaPlanet 22 points a year ago

Yay capitalism! Perfect reasoning not to feel bad lying on a resume.

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Speculater 6 points a year ago

If they can lie about the company and position, I can lie about my experience and fit.

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Whats_your_reasoning 3 points a year ago

I'm starting to think of writing down the specific things job recruiters tell me, and bringing it to the interview. The last recruiter that reached out (and succeeded in hiring me) told me things that didn't end up being true. When I got hired and was told contradictory information, the company said, "Oh, that is still true, but this particular case is an exception. We can get you a different case where that is true," and then they didn't get back to me for weeks. In that time, I'd applied, interviewed, and accepted a job elsewhere. Fuck lying employers.

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Eknz 21 points a year ago

It may seem this way at times, however, it really depends on the system you're participating in.

Have a play around with: The evolution of trust - https://ncase.me/trust/

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Aggravationstation 3 points a year ago

That was amazing and highly informative!

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Ephera 20 points a year ago

By some definition of "further", sure. Mainly the definition someone with no remorse would have.

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Randomgal 18 points a year ago

Exactly. OPs logic only works if your definition of happiness is money and going from being the oppressed to the oppressor.

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datavoid 5 points a year ago

From the perspective of a rich abusive CEO, they probably are happy. They get off on having power over people, and they do. Plus they can make more money than they can ever spend.

People who become wealthy naturally seem to have some sociopathic traits, but generally they also don't know how to stop working. They get everything they want by doing things they enjoy doing.

I have a brother who is the CEO of a fairly successful business. He loves bragging about what he's worth, and went from watching Silicon Valley and laughing extra hard at the bit where a bunch of companies in the show are pitching how they "want to make the world a better place" to giving me those words verbatim after bragging about how much money he has. He talks about how hard his job is and he wouldnt wish it on anyone.. But I have worked with him on previous businesses, and he quite literally can't stop working (even when high and drunk at 2am). I mean he literally CAN'T turn it off.

Throughout my childhood (and still now), this person used extremely obvious domination tactics on the people around him. One of his favourite moves is to either start texting or talking to someone else while I am in the middle of speaking to him. I am willing to guarantee that having the ability to use obscene wealth to dominate people makes him slightly fucking hard.

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Randomgal 1 point a year ago

Yeah, it aeem we have different definitions of what happiness looks like.

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datavoid 2 points a year ago

That's not my definition, just my observations.

If I went out of my way to make someone feel small I would regret it afterwards, not be proud of myself.

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Fletcher 18 points a year ago

One doesn't do the right thing to be rewarded or to 'get ahead'. One does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Selfishness only leads to insecurity and loneliness.

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JasonDJ 9 points a year ago

Yep. That's what the selfish ones have been telling us for thousands of years.

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yarr 15 points a year ago

I've known this for a long time but I continue to do my best to operate honorably. I may never be rich or powerful, but I sleep very well at night.

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TheReanuKeeves 9 points a year ago

I still don't sleep well, knowing the state of the world

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SunshineJogger 4 points a year ago

Yea. Trying to be correct and do things in a respectful and good way makes me more and more bitter, resentful and judgemental.

Soon that in itself will corrupt me.

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TheReanuKeeves 1 point a year ago

I have to manipulate and lie to myself that things will get better

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Madzielle 2 points a year ago

"control what you can" is my largest crutch.

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Madzielle 1 point a year ago

I just had a talk with my son, 12, this morning about the bad feelings we get when we lie, trick, or cheat and are caught. For me, I explained, it can even physically hurt because my chest tightens. Sometime around when I was my son's age, I decided I wanted to avoid that feeling at all costs, and just stopped trying to lie, or trick, or get away with something wrong, because the risk was never worth it.

I may not be rich, or powerful, or hell even interesting, but I do sleep well at night and nearing middle age, I've more love in my life than I've ever had before. I hope to pass that to my son. Honest man's living is superior.

My neighbor will tell me all about her grown son (who I know as a racist shit bag, and his son bullys mine) is so successful financially, yet in the same breath tells me she doesn't bother wasting money on her garden because she can get free tomatoes from the food bank.

Money doesn't mean one is successful in my opinion. Are they happy? Do they love themselves? Do they treat others kindly? Do the add to their community in positive ways? Do they never take more than they need so that others can have too? That's success.

I prefer to have my conscience clean, and be the brokest person out there, than to lie, sceme, cheat to gain some arbitrary "success".

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vane 15 points a year ago

It depends where you want to go. Knowledge is always bigger than power, power gives money but knowledge gives depression and suicide thoughts. The fast escape path is obvious.

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DahGangalang 5 points a year ago

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thevoidzero 14 points a year ago

Sure but it's lonely at the top. If you rise to the top by backstabbing people, you'll end up exactly how some people right now are, and you keep trying to accumulate more and be great or whatever messing up everything else and being hated.

While a simple life with your loved ones will give you satisfaction. And satisfaction is the key to happiness. Rather satisfaction is the ultimate happiness.

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FreakinSteve 14 points a year ago

I so wish that I could grift the fuck out of the goddamn Nazis and get rich off of their idiocy but I would feel icky with dirty money.

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kelpie_returns 7 points a year ago

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BarneyPiccolo 3 points a year ago

Go to work for ICE, and be the worst worker in the history of America. Then you earned your money gumming up the works of an evil organization, and you can feel good about taking their money to hurt them.

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SabinStargem 4 points a year ago

I would be alright with ICE getting fake armor plates, defective bullets, and boots with thin soles.

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blarghly 2 points a year ago

Eh, I bet the pay is shit

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the_q 13 points a year ago

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electric_nan 12 points a year ago

It's because we live in a system with perverse incentives. It's practically designed by psychopaths, for psychopaths. Still, we only get one life, don't spend it going against your better nature.

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JPSound 11 points a year ago

Depends on how you define "further". I'd like to leave this earth knowing I had a positive impact on those i met while I was here. I can sleep easy at night, even dispte all the hardships in my life atm, knowing I'm doing the best with what it is I have. Also, in my early 30's, I started to really internalize the, "having nice things means keeping things nice" i.e. you don't need new shiny things all the time. Take care of what you already have and you'll never be without.

I can't lie and manipulate my way into being a kind and honorable man, friend, son and brother. Me achieving those things brings me greater peace of mind and satisfaction than anything I'd ever need to lie my way into to get.

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EndlessNightmare 10 points a year ago

The world actively rewards bad behavior. This realization was a difficult pill for me to swallow.

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aesthelete 10 points a year ago

Yup and add intelligence to the list as well. Smart means nothing if you can't back it up with being an amoral pile of shit that takes advantage of people every opportunity you get.

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realitista 13 points a year ago

If you are smart, you can afford the luxury of not being a complete piece of shit if you get into the right career.

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chicken 5 points a year ago

I feel like that has got to be pretty difficult unless you include jobs where you are personally isolated from and ignorant of the harmful things the company you contribute to is doing

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realitista 3 points a year ago

I mean every company probably has some bad effect on the world, but there's also benefit. You have to weight the benefits vs the harm. I don't feel like I have to be personally evil in my job or that it's a net negative on society. I think things are better in the world because of my work. Not all things, but better on balance.

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chicken 1 point a year ago

Your other comments in this thread seem to contradict that a little, at least the idea that these harms or benefits would be visible enough to you to evaluate, since you claim to have switched positions when they started becoming more visible and something you would have had to engage with directly. For software in particular, you empower your users to do whatever they happen to choose to do with it.

Which isn't to say you're doing the wrong thing. I just see the economy as a whole as an inherently cannibalistic system we have little choice but to be a contributing part of one way or another, with the main form of meaningful available agency being to minimize involvement rather than choosing how to be involved.

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aesthelete 1 point a year ago

What's the "right career"?

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realitista 1 point a year ago

For me it was enterprise software

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aesthelete 1 point a year ago

I work in that myself, which allows me to be a step or two removed from being a complete piece of shit, but still pretty close to the shitscape.

Also, in that field, being an asshole without empathy gets you further up the org chart than being smart or good at your job, so my point stands.

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Samskara 1 point a year ago

It might mean money and success.

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blarghly 1 point a year ago

I know plenty of moral smart people who are doing very well in life.

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Pencilnoob 9 points a year ago

I disagree, other than a few notable counter examples most times folks are only successful when they build reliable business relationships. Most relationships will dissolve if one party is playing games.

On average it's more effective to follow "The No Assholes Rule". There's plenty of studies (referenced in the book Good To Great) that indicate that humble business leaders produce build more stable and long term profitable companies.

Lying manipulators can sometimes get ahead but just as often they get found out and blackballed.

I think it might be like a game theory type situation where if everyone is honest, then the first liar might get ahead a lot (although I suspect in that situation they'd immediately be shunned by all honest folk if found out). If everyone is a liar then honest folk have nothing to hide and probably will just be really defensive in their dealings.

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TheReanuKeeves 12 points a year ago

Business relationships are almost always purely transactional. When you stop being able to supply someone with what they want or at a good price then they will find someone else. The average CEO is not a friendly selfless person, which is why sociopaths find success in the business world.

Do you believe that the majority of people who hold power and influence are genuine philanthropists?

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Duckworthy 5 points a year ago

I think power and money corrupts people. Plenty of people who started out as honest business people turn into monsters. As you move up the ladder, less and less people are honest with you. Some are climbing the ladder because they are unhappy and that definitely makes things worse, they think money or power will make them feel better, when actually I’ve found living with less and doing things yourself is ultimately more satisfying.

Anecdotally, I personally felt how wealth corrupted me - when my economy car was totaled and my insurance rental gave me a Mercedes because they were out of reasonable models . After a week of driving it I started feeling like I was better than other people on the road. Luckily I got a replacement crappy hatchback and became a normal person again.

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TheReanuKeeves 3 points a year ago

I think it's a combination of power corrupts as well as corrupt people seek power but yes it only gets worse the higher up you go. Lots of people want financial stability so it's of course a competitive environment which invites dirty tactics.

Depends, if you were in a b-class then you have about as much aura as a prius. But if you were in a g or s-class you are without a doubt superior to that peon in the pontiac sunfire that's somehow still running.

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WorldsDumbestMan 1 point a year ago

When I had extra money, I felt safe to donate. No clue what this power corrupts stuff is.

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Nomad 3 points a year ago

Business owner here, even if not a very good one. These kinds of CEOs exist, but there are far from the norm. And they usually act that way because the owners of the company expect them to lead that way. There is a crowd mechanic of many people owning some of the stock of a company. It leads to some psychopathy as nobody feels responsible and everybody wants to earn some extra Money. Look into a documentary called "cooperation".

Most business people, especially the more successful ones are the classic boys club people. They get good deals by being friends and knowing people that give them access. It leads to a culture where what you earn has more or less nothing to so with what or how good you work. If you know the show billions, watch it and look for the making of episodes. There is a lot of real world experience in the writing.

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TheReanuKeeves 3 points a year ago

I went to business school and worked in corporate for a while, I know our experiences are anecdotal but the ones I know that climbed the corporate ladder the best are the ones who have family connections and/or lie the best. They do come across as charismatic, charming, friendly, because that's what works.

If it comes down to a promotion or raise though, they're obviously not likely to voluntarily give it to someone else who may be more deserving. As a business owner I'm sure you know when companies get larger, people end up being faceless cogs of the machine and the C suite is more concerned with hitting targets for shareholders.

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Nomad 2 points a year ago

Working in cooperations is the definition of insanity. Been there, it's crazy. And yes, there the lying and cheating part is most likely to get you ahead.

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mitexleo 9 points a year ago

It's true. Still, I can't lie for some reason.

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Michal 10 points a year ago

It's easier not to lie. Remembering all the lies is too much effort, and being caught can be particularly embarrassing especially if you already have social anxiety.

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WildPalmTree 3 points a year ago

Try the game Warewolf (same concept goes by many other names). Most people find it really hard to lie, even if it is about nothing important at all and part of the agreed "social" rules.

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toppy 9 points a year ago

"Having the ability to lie and manipulate with no remorse will get you much further in this world than having morals and being correct" This is the reason psychopaths are so successful.

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benni 8 points a year ago

It makes a lot of sense. Lying and manipulation are done specifically to achieve goals. A defining characteristic of morals is that you're supposed to follow them even if it's neutral or disadvantageous for you. If someone follows "morals" to achieve a personal goal, they're not actually following morals, they're just acting in a way that incidentally looks moral.

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Strider 7 points a year ago

Absolutely true and stating otherwise is just crowd control.

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surewhynotlem 8 points a year ago

See, we used to exile those types. Modern society lost that ability and now we have CEOs.

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Strider 0 points a year ago

That's where Luigi enters the stage!

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Salamanderwizard 7 points a year ago

I'll die poor with morals rather than rich and evil. I'm okay with that.

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bampop 3 points a year ago

You'll also live better. It's a sad indictment of society that people incapable of forming meaningful relationships, but able to buy some shiny crap they don't need, are considered successful.

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Doc_Crankenstein 7 points a year ago

I mean, yea, that's how the economy is kinda designed for most of the world right now.

In the employee-employer relationship, the better you are as an employer at manipulating others into working for you while you retain ownership of the revenue, paying employees out percentage of what they generated as a wage while keeping the excess value as profit, is how you make a successful business.

The business-consumer relationship boils down to a transaction where you want to be the one who has the advantage on the transaction. Sellers want to sell their products for more than they're worth while the consumers want to buy those products at a discount of their perceived value. The seller's entire job is to manipulate the consumer into perceiving more value in their products than the base material value of the product to generate a revenue that exceeds the cost of its production to generate profit. That's like the basis of advertising and marketing.

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thatradomguy 7 points a year ago

House MD Pilot

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RememberTheApollo_ 6 points a year ago

There’s very few things more galling than yourself playing by the rules, putting in the time and effort to have some kind of social contract, only to have someone flippantly disregard said rules and contract and to benefit from it. Doesn’t matter if it’s someone cutting in line or pillaging the highest office in the land for their own gain.

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BarneyPiccolo 6 points a year ago

I've been self-employed for about 30 years, which puts you rubbing elbows with other self-employed business people.

I have learned that while MOST people want to run a friendly, moral, legal business, and would never cross the line, there are a plenty of amoral businesspeople who don't have any problems crossing the line.

Furthermore, they are well-aware that many businesspeople won't cross the line, so that makes their willingness to act illegally or immorally their personal competitive edge, and they absolutely look at it that way.

They watch for decent, moral businesses, and they target them in various ways, either as a competitor, a supplier, a contractor, etc.

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Malfeasant 5 points a year ago

Learning this from my (soon-to-be-ex-) wife right now...

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plyth 5 points a year ago

That depends on how much people with morals stick together. People are isolated so that they can be manipulated.

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kryptonianCodeMonkey 5 points a year ago

Depends what you mean by "further". It is a trait that definitely serves well in some very lucrative areas like business or politics. But it very easy to ruin other aspects of your life like your relationships, your public image, and can run you afoul of the law. In areas of work where your image is paramount, being a liar and manipulator usually only gets you so far because it's very hard to maintain those lies and hide the manipulation under massive public scrutiny, particularly if you're doing illegal stuff in addition to it. Of course the wealthier you are, or the more fanatical your following, the more you will have others lie and manipulate on your behalf, so... accountability can decrease that way.

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MangoCats 1 point a year ago

it very easy to ruin other aspects of your life like your relationships, your public image, and can run you afoul of the law.

Not when you succeed to the level that you can ignore the laws - which isn't just one man in the US, not by a long shot.

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kryptonianCodeMonkey 1 point a year ago

That's why I included the last bit. The law is more relevant when you are not someone too special. The higher you get, the less it matters, if only because more people have fallen for your manipulations or are cognizant of them but support them for whatever reason, and will defend you no matter what from actual justice.

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JackbyDev 5 points a year ago

The Evolution of Trust

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DominatorX1 4 points a year ago

It makes you bad at art and inventing tho. The liar plays a shallow game.

It says grim things that by playing the shallow game you can succeed in our society. I blame the rule of law. It was basically designed to be gamed.

Say what you will about dictators, at least they're human.

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TheReanuKeeves 3 points a year ago

You take the Edison route of stealing from people like Tesla. One goes down as a famous inventor and the other dies broke and alone other than his pigeons.

And yes, the system is made for people to be pieces of shit because it was created by pieces of shit.

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DominatorX1 0 points a year ago

The system could also be described as an abstraction of the same system that's existed for millions of years. Domination by the powerful, exploitation of the weak, etc. Not so much evil as brutish.

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TheReanuKeeves 1 point a year ago

That's just slavery with more steps!

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DominatorX1 0 points a year ago

I don't see the connection.

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YiddishMcSquidish 0 points a year ago

Most successful artists are just as manipulative as any CEO. It's a money laundering front at this point

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DominatorX1 0 points a year ago

yeah but those guys are assholes

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finitebanjo 4 points a year ago

Ha, not really. If your only measure of success is your bank account then you're playing high risk / reward with a dishonest strategy that either lands you in prison or a jacuzzi.

Then when you get to the really bad end of the spectrum, well...

Do you think Hitler smiled as he killed himself? Do you think his confidants died easy? Evil people make their own lives shit, they just drag everyone else down with them. I see Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the news on the verge of tears every other day because everyone hates them.

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TheReanuKeeves 3 points a year ago

Everyone knows his body was a double and Hitler fled to Argentina where he changed his name to Mateo González to pursue a career in dog breeding and pastries for diabetics

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WorldsDumbestMan 4 points a year ago

Unless you meet someone like me, who does not wait for aithorities to resolve things.

My co-workers did that literally hours ago, admited everything within moments.

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Venus_Ziegenfalle 4 points a year ago

While feeling numb and miserable

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datavoid 3 points a year ago

I live my life to spite these people :)

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Quarkman 3 points a year ago

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blarghly 3 points a year ago

Really depends on where you are. These people won't get as far in stable communities where people know and talk to each other. If you are doing these things habitually as a way to get ahead, eventually everyone will figure out what is going on and will, at the very least, exclude you from the group.

This pattern is the case with most people who are especially dickish or unpleasant in one way or another. Sure, a very small number of them gain power and influence in the world at large. But most of them live shitty lives. They have few friends, and the friends they do have are shitty like them. They have no money, because they have trouble getting and keeping jobs - even low paying ones. When they manage to find romantic partners, the relationships tend to be tumultuous, since the only people they can attract are just as shitty as they are.

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Semi_Hemi_Demigod 3 points a year ago

Unless you’re mediocre at it and have adhd and then it’s just easier to always tell the truth so you don’t have to forget about something.

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YummyEntropy 3 points a year ago

Yeah that tends to happen when most everyone enables such behavior.

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mrcleanup 3 points a year ago

We create a world of kindness or selfishness, judgement or forgiveness every day. These behaviors may get you money or power, but the world you have to live in gets worse. I don't think you realize how much you lose getting ahead, and how much you cost everyone else.

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Almacca 3 points a year ago

I wish this wasn't true, but it's tragic that it is.

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aoidenpa 2 points a year ago

Exactly and I love it.

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lmmarsano 1 point a year ago

Or goodness is its own reward?

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Griffus 1 point a year ago

That depends on how shallow you want your life to be.

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Sam_Bass 1 point a year ago

Especially in today's sociopolitical climate

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Jack_Burton 4 points a year ago

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Bloomcole 1 point a year ago

And water is wet

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Speculater 1 point a year ago

Absolutely. Shouldn't be where I am, but I feel like the world is full of gullible people.

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brachiosaurus 0 points a year ago

Lying and manipulating people won't get you anywhere further in this world. Having more money than someone or a better position in a company doesn't actually mean shit.

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TimewornTraveler -1 points a year ago

if that's what matters to you, then sure, go ahead

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ArgumentativeMonotheist -2 points a year ago

Maybe, but not in the next one.

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SomeSphinx 4 points a year ago

There is no "Next one" We get one life on this planet.

Personally, I'd rather spend it in the company of good people and do good things.

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ArgumentativeMonotheist 2 points a year ago

I agree entirely with your second sentence!

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SomeSphinx 2 points a year ago

Ayy glad you agree. It can be hard to remember, but most people really do want to do the right thing. Sometimes, posts like this make us forget that humanity advances forward in spite of the consequences because we as a species want to make the world a better place, even if some of us are evil I feel like humanity as a whole is inherently good.

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ArgumentativeMonotheist 1 point a year ago

True but also easily misled because many people will naturally gravitate towards many things that aren't geopolitics, ethics and existentialism and with enough fancy words people can go rogue for long enough periods of time to cause great chaos... and now we have nukes and drones and man-made ecological catastrophes and whatnot, idk, it's scary to say the least. Hopefully we collectively enter the next century with less confusion and less compounded, unexplored trauma. 🙏

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showerthoughts

@lemmy.world

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. The most popular seem to be lighthearted clever little truths, hidden in daily life.

Here are some examples to inspire your own showerthoughts:

Rules

All posts must be showerthoughts
The entire showerthought must be in the title
No politics
- If your topic is in a grey area, please phrase it to emphasize the fascinating aspects, not the dramatic aspects. You can do this by avoiding overly politicized terms such as "capitalism" and "communism". If you must make comparisons, you can say something is different without saying something is better/worse.
- A good place for politics is c/politicaldiscussion
Posts must be original/unique
Adhere to Lemmy's Code of Conduct and the TOS

If you made it this far, showerthoughts is accepting new mods. This community is generally tame so its not a lot of work, but having a few more mods would help reports get addressed a little sooner.

Whats it like to be a mod? Reports just show up as messages in your Lemmy inbox, and if a different mod has already addressed the report, the message goes away and you never worry about it.

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showerthoughts

@lemmy.world

login for more options

A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. The most popular seem to be lighthearted clever little truths, hidden in daily life.

Here are some examples to inspire your own showerthoughts:

Rules

All posts must be showerthoughts
The entire showerthought must be in the title
No politics
- If your topic is in a grey area, please phrase it to emphasize the fascinating aspects, not the dramatic aspects. You can do this by avoiding overly politicized terms such as "capitalism" and "communism". If you must make comparisons, you can say something is different without saying something is better/worse.
- A good place for politics is c/politicaldiscussion
Posts must be original/unique
Adhere to Lemmy's Code of Conduct and the TOS

If you made it this far, showerthoughts is accepting new mods. This community is generally tame so its not a lot of work, but having a few more mods would help reports get addressed a little sooner.

Whats it like to be a mod? Reports just show up as messages in your Lemmy inbox, and if a different mod has already addressed the report, the message goes away and you never worry about it.

go to feed...